Mini 1003 Mafia - Game Over

[Tasky]

/confirm

well... I'd say: good game to everybody, have fun and let's kill those mafiosi

[Tasky]

VOTE: Lemon

for reading the vanilla townie role PM so carefully...

[Tasky]

Don't h8 for me being observative and/or new.

why do you think I hate you? should I?

[Tasky]

Don't h8 for me being observative and/or new.

Do you really think I hate you?

should

I hate you?

Why

?

[Tasky]

damn... sorry... I sended my message twice because I didn't see page 2 of the discussion... lol

[Tasky]

Second Self-Inconsistancy (in relation to actual game issues) is a huge scum-tell IMO. Going out of your way to point out the spelling errors in the sample PM while yourself using h8 in place of hate (along with other issues) is being self-inconsistent. Regardless I don't feel it is anything other than a way to generate discussion in this case.

well... I do agree with you that self-inconsistancy is a huge scum-tell, but if and

only if

it's related to the game itself... not if it is related to something like grammar.
just wanted to point out that logical fallacy, done on purpose or not

[Tasky]

So for now:

UNVOTE: Lemon
VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

[Tasky]

Second Self-Inconsistancy (

in relation to actual game issues

) is a huge scum-tell IMO. Going out of your way to point out the spelling errors in the sample PM while yourself

using h8 in place of hate (along with other issues) is being self-inconsistent

. Regardless

I don't feel it is anything other than a way to generate discussion in this case.

well... I do agree with you that self-inconsistancy is a huge scum-tell, but if and

only if

it's related to the game itself... not if it is related to something like grammar.
just wanted to point out that logical fallacy, done on purpose or not

I've bolded my initial post to highlight where I say exactly what you are attempting to explain in your first sentance. What purpose do you have in making a point that was already made in the post you quoted?

well, ok... we are fine then... just wanted to make it clear...
to me "in relation to actual game issues" seemed like you applied to Lemons action
and the part in italics made me think you were connecting his inconsistency to the other kind of inconsistency (the one which IS a scum tell)
well... I interpreted the last bold part as saying that HIS post was just a way to generate discussion...

good to have made the point clear then, just didn't want other people to hurry to conclusions before having anything...

Tasky - Seconding Magna's confusion as to your voting for him for saying

exactly

what you said.

the vote was more like symbolic... I don't have any clear ideas yet, so I am just throwing around my vote and see what happens and what reactions I get

[Tasky]

My Chihuahuas conform this by faxing

a kitty

to Zang's bunny. Many are outraged.

Be careful, this is my first game out of the newbie forums.

UNVOTE: MagnaofIllusion

VOTE: chihuahua0

because I absolutely did not get what you said in that first line of yours

[Tasky]

/confirm

Lemon, can we "hate" on you for the irony of your interesting language choices in that last post in conjunction with your criticism of Zang's spelling?

H8ers gonna h8!

I feel like forming a bandwagon on someone. I see hate... I mean eight candidates in the votecount.

Vote: Lemon

I h8 people who vote me.

UNVOTE: chihuahua0
VOTE: Mindgamer

for trying to form bandwagons

[Tasky]

It's just that, in my experience, it's bad to have someone who votes aggressively, because they're likely to really latch onto a target and ignore scumtells from other people. How do I know? That's exactly the way I used to play. I'd like to say _explicitly_ that I don't think aggressive voting is scumtell so I'm not accusing him of being mafia (though it could be SK or something). I'm just saying it rubs me the wrong way.

well... quite the opposite; voting aggressively helps getting a discussion started, helps wake people up a little... I always found it an useful tactic in the early game when there is just little information available...

"they're likely to really latch onto a target and ignore scumtells from other people"
well... actually this is just the opposite from what's happening, I try to jump loosely from one player to the next, as youngminii correctly wrote: "it looks like Tasky's just rapidly switching targets"

I dunno, it looks like Tasky's just rapidly switching targets. He's already voted for 4 different people so far. I don't really think it's a scumtell but he

might be a liability later in the game where the scum could use his happy-go-lucky voting sprees.

look, as I told the switchy-vote-thing is a technique for the early game, from a certain point onwards, when a discussions is forming/has formed it's no longer necessary
but even if used later in the game, how exactly is the mafia supposed to use it? by starting a bandwagon from it, just so I can change target soon after? or by accusing me to be scum try to have me lynched, but by then you know already that it's just my playing style so that won't work out either?
so your argument doesn't work that well you claim it to...

[Tasky]

I dunno, it looks like Tasky's just rapidly switching targets. He's already voted for 4 different people so far.

one more thing: why are you, AClockworkMelon quoting youngminii's sentence without saying anything? would you mind expressing an opinion?

How is bandwagoning a scumtell?

it definitely isn't in this phase of the game... was just looking for a "reason" to cast a random vote

but

I do belive that bandwagoning is more the thing a mafioso does when game progresses, since then, losing the option of hiding behind randomness and initial disinformation, he has to do something... and the last remaining thing (except lurking...) which does not imply own, new, fresh thoughts is bandwagoning

[Tasky]

The town works best if it's composed of coordinated, organized and rational members rather than a mob of individuals who change votes every time the wind blows.

so which strategy would you suggest in the early game for scumhunting?

[Tasky]

How is bandwagoning a scumtell?

it definitely isn't in this phase of the game... was just looking for a "reason" to cast a random vote

but

I do belive that bandwagoning is more the thing a mafioso does when game progresses, since then, losing the option of hiding behind randomness and initial disinformation, he has to do something... and the last remaining thing (except lurking...) which does not imply own, new, fresh thoughts is bandwagoning

You're forgetting that scums work as a team, "coordinated, organized and rational members rather than a mob of individuals who change votes every time the wind blows."[/quote]
I don't quite understand the relationship between my post you quoted and your statement (I agree, btw)

[Tasky]

damn... something went wrong with the quoting... I wanted to quote nopointinactingup

[Tasky]

The town works best if it's composed of coordinated, organized and rational members rather than a mob of individuals who change votes every time the wind blows.

You rather explicit point of view here doesn’t allow for different playstyles. There are any number of players on site who play in what appears to be an erratic style and can effectively scum-hunt doing so. Are you inflexible on your views of what ‘proper Town play’ is?

If by 'inflexible' you mean 'would prefer that townies are coordinated, organized and rational', then yes. I'd put most of the emphasis on being rational.

you keep forgetting that coordination and organization isn't possible until one has a baseline to establish who you have to be coordinate with...
as somebody already said, only scum (well, and masons or similar things) can act coordinated in mafia, for townies that's just plain impossible

[Tasky]

but I do belive that bandwagoning is more the thing a mafioso does when game progresses, since then, losing the option of hiding behind randomness and initial disinformation, he has to do something... and the last remaining thing (except lurking...) which does not imply own, new, fresh thoughts is bandwagoning

Why can’t scum provide ‘new, fresh thoughts’?

each fresh, new thoughts help the town by adding information to the discussion in one way or another... so, scum can either try to say something irrelevant or even anti-town and masking it up as a logical argument (the one I classify as fresh, new thought) or they have to do something which takes away the burden of having to contribute actively, e.g. bandwagoning

[Tasky]

I guess we'll just have to try to at least be rational, then.

yeah, but rational doesn't exclude throwing some random votes around... rationality still applies in the evaluation of the result

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

and another thing... I'd really want to hear from AWA... he/she hasn't said anything execpt "/confirm"
just so you can find in the game and make up a little for the information you owe us, how about answering this questions:
a) which role do you prefer to play (no esoteric roles please)? in particular, do you prefer being mafia or townie?
b) how would you characterize your playing-style?
c) if you were to cast an arbitrary vote, who would you vote for?
d) what do you think about bandwagons?
e) what do you think about RVS?

@mod: please prod AWA

[Tasky]

Sorry I haven't posted; I'm away from home at the moment and have very limited Internet access. I posted this in my other game, but I forgot about this one. I'll read up and begin posting as soon as possible.

Again, sorry for the delay.

please answer the questions... do something... stop posting useless things!

First to everyone (including Tasky) – please answer questions b,d, and e that Tasky posed. I’ll start –

a) which role do you prefer to play (no esoteric roles please)? in particular, do you prefer being mafia or townie?

– This is a pointless WIFOM exercise.

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

– I’m very analytical and tend to post in large chunks, as should be obvious by now.

c) if you were to cast an arbitrary vote, who would you vote for?

– We realistically have cleared RVS at this stage so this serves no purpose.

d) what do you think about bandwagons? –

Forming wagons is an important part of the daytime play in finding scum. They provide a myriad of information. Jumping on a wagon with little to no reasoning is generally scummy, especially when repeated.

e) what do you think about RVS? –

It’s best made as short as possible. Content is better than randomness. That said you can gather information from RVS actions.

I really think a) should be answered, at least for interest... I just want to hear the truth... you like playing scum, tell it; you like playing townie, say it...
question c) was actually for AWA, since he skipped the RVS...

now my answers:

a) which role do you prefer to play (no esoteric roles please)? in particular, do you prefer being mafia or townie?

– I prefer playing townie in face-to-face-games, cause one can risk more, and really has to play well in order to achieve something... first time I play online-mafia, so I can't answer about that

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

– (again this is more my face-to-face-style, online-style still has to be formed) I like taking control of the game, ask a lot of questions, but I usually start really attacking people only after a while of talking and some information came up.

d) what do you think about bandwagons? –

I really don't like early bandwagons, especially lynchwagons... they help scum find easy targets to jump on... I can accept that in online-mafia that's the best you have (since you don't have facial expression, and similar) to provoke a notable reaction, but still the face-to-face-mafia-player in me keeps me from liking them.

e) what do you think about RVS? –

I don't think RVS is totally random except somebody is really voting with dice... and I think that scum will be more likely to target townies than scum, even in RVS (even if subconsciously)... therefore I do like the idea of getting some statistical baseline at the start of the game... but, I have to say I prefer RQS (which is more like I play in f-t-f-games)...

as somebody already said, only scum (well, and masons or similar things) can act coordinated in mafia, for townies that's just plain impossible

Blatantly untrue. Town can get a group of players who have strong Town reads together and work in a coordinated fashion. It only tends to be useful in larger games but it can happen.

well... this is definitely not going to happen in early game where each townie is on it's own... of course later in the game townies will start to form "groups of trust" but they can never be totally sure of them (except aforementioned masons or something related to cops)
and so the effectivity drops... and, btw, this does not have to happen, in my experience this happens rarely

each fresh, new thoughts help the town by adding information to the discussion in one way or another... so, scum can either try to say something irrelevant or even anti-town and masking it up as a logical argument (the one I classify as fresh, new thought) or they have to do something which takes away the burden of having to contribute actively, e.g. bandwagoning

I think you are greatly underestimating the ability of scum to present cogent, credible arguments based on poor Town play.

well ok... but you are assuming town is playing poorly... isn't it obvious that a poor playing town will lose?

[Tasky]

Tasky, you were suspicious at your behavior at Page 2. Take note: It was an RVS Period, and yet you were so sketchy and

too inquiring

.

tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing... inquiries bring information, information exposes scum => inquiry is good
so in your opinion the RVS is when everybody leans back and does nothing? how is one supposed to get out of that period then?

Why is a bandwagon suspicious? Answer please.

as I stated, my real-life-mafia experience tells me that scum really likes to jump on other peoples bandwagons, so that they can attack someone without having to put much arguments behind it... I already accepted that in online-mafia it can be different since there is no possibility of face/emotion-read but still I keep an eye on people who are to eager to bandwagon

b) how would you characterize your playing-style? –

Defensive, Misleading and Innocent

could you please explain this point a little better? what exactly do you mean by misleading? isn't that a bad thing?
how is "innocent" a playing-style?

[Tasky]

oh, btw:

FoS: RetroAudio

[Tasky]

scum really likes to jump on other peoples bandwagons

Actually, the scum will try to break bandwagons if it makes good points. They will and will like the town going nuts. Deal with that fact. Bandwagons isn't the same with

"FUCK YES! LET'S LYNCH HIM".

It's extracting information, applying pressure, getting reactions and an emotion depressant.

noted your selective quoting there... I said much more than just that... go reread my post

Tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing

Too inquiring

is synonymous to

obvious pointless defensiveness

if it is used to point out

Day 1:

RVS

behaviour. Now how is it a bad thing? hmm.

how can "inquiring" be synonymous to "pointless defensiveness"?? really don't get that point

could you please explain this point a little better?

I answered the question with a smile on my face, without thinking of any better term to describe it. You may ask Mindgamer about how I really play, lol.

why don't you tell me... what do you fear in telling us your playing style?

what exactly do you mean by misleading? isn't that a bad thing?
how is "innocent" a playing-style?

you dodged this questions... I'd really like you to answer them

[Tasky]

I'm definitely going to vote RetroAudio now... for totally dodging my questions:
UNVOTE: Mindgamer
VOTE: RetroAudio

[Tasky]

Good point. I talk too much.

Way

too much.

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

Talkative and accusing.

I post too much

.

how can someone "post too much"?? more posting is

always

better than less posting (more info is

always

better than less info)...

1> Are you Scum?

This is a test question, and almost any answer I use here will be used against me. No answer.

why don't you just say no? saying "this is a test question" is a really scum-tell IMO... it's like you saying "I'm not going to fall for your trick", which only scum will do, since a townie will just go for the truth and answer as honestly as possible
in my experience (which, I admit, consists only of real-life-mafia) this almost always was true, I myself got caught quite often by that argument

2> How do you hope to find scums?

The moment someone slips up and everyone piles onto him/her.

so you rely on others to spot the scum? what would be your contribution to that scum-catch?

3> How do you feel about Magma's attack on you?

I need to go back a little bit to look at it, but I have a gut feeling that he might be using me.

explain "using me" a little better please...

so I'm going to put a

very big FoS: chihuahua0

PS: I really don't care about the newbie-argument

PPS: another EDIT, just noted another quotation error in post 115

***********start correction***********

Tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing

Too inquiring

is synonymous to

obvious pointless defensiveness

if it is used to point out

Day 1:

RVS

behaviour. Now how is it a bad thing? hmm.

how can "inquiring" be synonymous to "pointless defensiveness"?? really don't get that point

could you please explain this point a little better?

I answered the question with a smile on my face, without thinking of any better term to describe it. You may ask Mindgamer about how I really play, lol.

why don't you tell me... what do you fear in telling us your playing style?
***********end correction************

[Tasky]

^ Big scumtell. You didn't give any new information, all you did was recycle information and jump on an already existing bandwagon.

FoS: Tasky

Still keeping my chihuahua vote though.

have you read the game thread? you really should go and find some evidence for what you are saying...

[Tasky]

I really think a) should be answered, at least for interest... I just want to hear the truth... you like playing scum, tell it; you like playing townie, say it...

Regardless of what you want to hear what scum-hunting purpose does it serve? You aren’t going to get any useable evidence formt he responses. It’s simply busywork.

I don't really agree with that... e.g. I think that someone is more likely to be passive if they are playing a role they dislike...
knowing ones favorite role can turn useful later on... see it as a kind of investment, everybody invests 10 seconds of their time to tell us their favorite role and maybe we get to use that information later in the game... it's probable that it won't serve any purpose, but it could be helpful later, so it's definitely an investment that's somehow favorable

[Tasky]

Tasky, you are attacking players based on their answers to the question, specially those who has thinks you are a scum. Don't you think this is something?

I attacked persons (you) for dodging questions repeatedly... and for other stuff... if you really like to confute what I said, take my posts, quote them piece by piece and confute... you are basically trying to defy logical arguments (well, I think they are logical, but prove me wrong if you can) based on specific quotes with a very vague statement; sorry, but it's not enough for me

why don't you just say no?

Because the question is basically stupid and nonsense. You should know that.

I still find the "This is a test question"-thing extremely scummy... I already explained why

***********this correction***********

Tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing

Too inquiring

is synonymous to

obvious pointless defensiveness

if it is used to point out

Day 1:

RVS

behaviour. Now how is it a bad thing? hmm.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2346220
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2346256
And that happened during the RVS.

I was asking questions, trying to put pressure, try to get info... how can getting info be bad?

could you please explain this point a little better?

why don't you tell me... what do you fear in telling us your playing style?

I

already

answered this.
***********end correction************

don't know if you noted it, but that wasn't a new post, just a correction of a previous one where I made a quotation-error

[Tasky]

It's not a policy lynch. I honestly believe Chi's posts are either scummy or newbie. Now this is

not

a newbie game, hence I'm inclined to believe his posts are scummy. So yes, I think we should lynch Chi.

Then I guess we can invoke something we call "metagaming".

chihuahua0 "Joined: Jun 16 2010", so about 2 weeks ago, so probably hasn't even went one day phase in his newbie game and also has "Total posts: 44" so that also signifies he hasn't played a lot of games. In fact, most of his posts aren't in games, but in discussion, or other games threads (Mish Mash).

So just because we're not in a newbie game, but he makes newbie mistakes, we should lynch and waste our lynch if he isn't mafia. His mistakes can be attributed to newbiness or being scum, it seems more likely the former at the moment.

let's assume for a moment chihuahua really is a newbie (everyone can pretend to be one, so the other will go easier on him/her)... being a newbie does not exclude that he is mafia...
the thing is: if we go to lynch chihuahua0 because we think he is scum, worst case scenario we lynch an useless newbie townie
if however we don't lynch him, but go for a more experienced player, worst case scenario we lynch a really useful experienced townie...

so, in order to not vote chihuahua0 the odds must really strongly be that another player is scum, otherwise the risk just isn't worth it...

since I think RetroAudio and chihuahua0 are both scum, I yet have to chose whom I'd want to lynch first...
the only thing that could maybe save chihuahua in my opinion is that being a newbie (still assuming he is) he is more likely to give away his scum-fellow (since I assume that for 12 persons there should be at least 3 mafiosi), so that I actually suggest to lynch RetroAudio the first day...

still, I really think we should lynch so early (in case someone was thinking of that now), it would just deprive us precious discussion-time we could use to find scum...

[Tasky]

@ Chihuahua0 case
I think we shouldn't use any 'newbie passes' at all. This basically allows any possible slips in the future to be covered with more newbies card. However, I don't find Chihuahua0's posts that remarkable at all. I'm more interested in the wagon that has been formed. In particular Taska's response. A 'very big FoS'. I don't know what that is, but I assume it has near the same weight as a vote. Taska, at the start of the game you said you would stop your wishy-washy voting once decent discussion has started. But here I see you voting RetroAudio for ignoring questions and just one post later you give your very big FoS. I don't like it one bit.

I think both RetroAudio and chihuahua0 are scum, so I voted for one and put a big FoS (=Finger of Suspicion) on the other... what is so wishy washy about that?

I don't really agree with that... e.g. I think that someone is more likely to be passive if they are playing a role they dislike...
knowing ones favorite role can turn useful later on... see it as a kind of investment, everybody invests 10 seconds of their time to tell us their favorite role and maybe we get to use that information later in the game... it's probable that it won't serve any purpose, but it could be helpful later, so it's definitely an investment that's somehow favorable

That's a good thought actually. But why did you explain that before everyone had claimed? Now it's useless.

please explain that one better...
why exactly is that useless now? How could it have been used better earlier?

PS: my name is Tasky, not Taska...

[Tasky]

The "ANSWER MY QUESTIONS OR DIE" Wall of Text

I don't understand this vote. Tasky fears bandwagons... why?

but even if used later in the game, how exactly is the mafia supposed to use it? by starting a bandwagon from it, just so I can change target soon after? or by accusing me to be scum try to have me lynched, but by then you know already that it's just my playing style so that won't work out either?

Are you planning on continuing this practice later in the game, when hard stances are more critical to town's win condition? I thought you said this vote-hopping was an early game tactic.

for the first question: this post gives you the answer
for the second... if you look at the whole quote and not just at a part of it, you will get that I really see it as early game tactic only...

look, as I told the switchy-vote-thing is a technique for the early game, from a certain point onwards, when a discussions is forming/has formed it's no longer necessary

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

let's assume for a moment chihuahua really is a newbie (everyone can pretend to be one, so the other will go easier on him/her)... being a newbie does not exclude that he is mafia...
the thing is: if we go to lynch chihuahua0 because we think he is scum, worst case scenario we lynch an useless newbie townie
if however we don't lynch him, but go for a more experienced player, worst case scenario we lynch a really useful experienced townie...

But in the best case, we get a scum. I think we should push for the best case.

but you can get scum only if you have a better alternative... give me a good scum-tell on someone else and I'll accept that... btw, right now my vote is on RetroAudio, not on chihuahua0 anyway...

still, I really think we should lynch so early (in case someone was thinking of that now), it would just deprive us precious discussion-time we could use to find scum...

Why would you push for a quick lynch? How would that give us more time to discuss who is scum? This statement in its entirety is suspicious.

damn... that was a bad typing error... correction:
"still, I really think we

shouldn't

lynch so early (in case someone was thinking of that now), it would just deprive us precious discussion-time we could use to find scum..."

Extremely pro-town play can be both pro-town and mafia.

this is nonsense... extremely pro-town = extremely pro town... nothing more, nothing less...
pro-town is good, anti-town is bad; that's it.

[Tasky]

the thing is: if we go to lynch chihuahua0 because we think he is scum, worst case scenario we lynch an useless newbie townie
if however we don't lynch him, but go for a more experienced player, worst case scenario we lynch a really useful experienced townie...

so, in order to not vote chihuahua0 the odds must really strongly be that another player is scum, otherwise the risk just isn't worth it...

This is not how it works Tasky, you haven't even given Chi a chance. The fact that you're trying to take the easy road to get somebody quicklynched really bothers me.

1> In your post, you pointed out that Tasky doesn't like bandwagoning. Now, however, he's strongly pushing for a quick lynch.

don't know if you noticed, my vote is on RetroAudio, not on chihuahua0...
so how exactly am I pushing for a quick lynch?

[Tasky]

for chihuahua:

read this post and

answer the question at it's end

, really

1. Well, the 3 people at L-5 doesn't really apply anymore, but I'll "show" my work. There are twelve people playing this game, correct? So with three people, there is

about

of 1/4 of a chance that

at least

one of them were scum.
Of course, that also means that there is at least a 1/3 chance that one of them is town, or a smaller chance that one of them is a cop or a doctor.

I still don't get this...

2. I would join a pressure wagon,

if there is countless evindence

that the person is scum. But I won't self-hammer myself, unless I'm a jester (which is considered an unhonorable role, so it's not likely I'd ever be a jester).

how exactly to you think to get that evidence?
and what exactly is the connection between joining a pressure wagon and self-hammering?

3. I thought I changed my vote. I need to look back a little.
No I didn't . Unfortunately, I don't have any vaild reasons to vote for any of the wagons right now. But it seems like you are leaning towards Lemon, am I right? (I might be wrong).

the question was who

you

think is scum, not who Equinox thinks is...

chihuahua0, you should

really

stop dodging questions...

PS: there are a lot of questions you still need to answer... if want to stay in this game I'd really suggest you read the whole game thread, pick up every question which addresses you answer every one of them...

and now another question

for chihuahua0

(I have to make sure he doesn't have the "overlooked-excuse"):
tell me what you think about RetroAudio... I really want you to answer this in great detail, pick apart everyone of his posts...

do not dodge this question!

(well, it isn't technically a question, but still

answer it

)

[Tasky]

At the risk of being shouted down beneath cries of "OMGUS!",

FOS

: Equinox. The 'case' against me is ridiculous.

Maybe you're looking for an easy lynch

but I don't think you'll find one here. We've had 7 pages of discussion and you're indifferent towards everyone except me? I'm not buying what you're selling, sorry.

if he were going for an easy lynch he would target chihuahua0
AClockworkMelon, please

don't dodge this

:
pick one player (except AWA), look through his ISO and post a comment to everyone of their posts...
I'd like you to be critical and analytic at least once...
I know it's a lot of work, but you haven't posted much of content so you really should start.

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

AWA:

please post

!!

@mod:

please replace AWA, he/she hasn't posted anything at all in this game...

I'll UNVOTE: RetroAudio
VOTE: AWA
lurkers are not accepted in this game

PS: RetroAudio, don't think I'll forget about you...

HoS: RetroAudio

[Tasky]

and now another question

for chihuahua0

(I have to make sure he doesn't have the "overlooked-excuse"):
tell me what you think about RetroAudio... I really want you to answer this in great detail, pick apart everyone of his posts...

do not dodge this question!

(well, it isn't technically a question, but still

answer it

)

Okay, I'll answer it.

I looked at the last few pages and he hadn't talked a lot. Plus he went V/LA for one day, but after that, he only posted a few times. So, he's either:

Lurking
Inactive
Don't know what to do


If he doesn't post a lot in the next few days, I'll vote for him for lurking.

There. I used my brain .

isn't AWA lurking a lot more than RetroAudio? (hasn't posted at all)
why don't you vote him/her?

[Tasky]

Second Self-Inconsistancy (

in relation to actual game issues

) is a huge scum-tell IMO. Going out of your way to point out the spelling errors in the sample PM while yourself using h8 in place of hate (along with other issues) is being self-inconsistent. Regardless I don't feel it is anything other than a way to generate discussion in this case.

well... I do agree with you that self-inconsistancy is a huge scum-tell,

but if and only if it's related to the game itself

... not if it is related to something like grammar.
just wanted to point out that logical fallacy, done on purpose or not

So for now:

UNVOTE: Lemon
VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

Tasky points out a logical fallacy where there isn't any and votes because of it.

Tasky's Vote Count: 2

the logical fallacy was there... he was saying inconsistency is always a scum-tell, I answered that it's one only if it's related to actual game issues

Tasky - Seconding Magna's confusion as to your voting for him for saying

exactly

what you said.

the vote was more like symbolic... I don't have any clear ideas yet, so I am just throwing around my vote and see what happens and what reactions I get

Oh. Right. His vote was

symbolic

.

if you compare the reasons for the vote to the reasons of the votes before and after it, you'll see that your post is nonsense...
I didn't think that small fallacy was a scum-tell... but it's better to vote for a small error than for a random reason

My Chihuahuas conform this by faxing

a kitty

to Zang's bunny. Many are outraged.

Be careful, this is my first game out of the newbie forums.

UNVOTE: MagnaofIllusion

VOTE: chihuahua0

because I absolutely did not get what you said in that first line of yours

Apparently we've regressed to the RVS.

Tasky's Vote Count: 3

hmmm... maybe that's because that post

was

in RVS... please read the game-thread before posting bullshit

UNVOTE: chihuahua0
VOTE: Mindgamer

for trying to form bandwagons

Tasky's Vote Count: 4

I dunno, it looks like Tasky's just rapidly switching targets. He's already voted for 4 different people so far.

I make my opinion known.

I'm definitely going to vote RetroAudio now... for totally dodging my questions:
UNVOTE: Mindgamer
VOTE: RetroAudio

Tasky's Vote Count: 5

this is my first serious vote... I thought RetroAudio is scum (I still think so) and explained why here and here

AWA:

please post

!!

@mod:

please replace AWA, he/she hasn't posted anything at all in this game...

I'll UNVOTE: RetroAudio
VOTE: AWA
lurkers are not accepted in this game

Why would you vote for someone for lurking while asking for them to be replaced?

Tasky's Vote Count: 6

I didn't put pressure off RetroAudio... still want to lynch him... but since right now the wagon isn't picking up, I want to get AWA posting... so I vote for him/her... if he/she get's replaced, good... otherwise he/she has to die (so I think others should vote for AWA right now)

I don't think Tasky's eclectic playstyle is helpful at all. Even if he does find legitimately scummy behavior it's quickly forgotten so that he can nonsensically vote for someone else a few posts later. He'll argue that there's a method to his madness but I the method is broken. Your vote counts for absolutely no pressuring power when people know that you change it at the drop of a hat. Noncommittal behavior, pointless voting, etc, it's all there. But wait. I already had my FOS on Tasky.

Excuse me if I don't feel like saying what's already been said. People are aware of Tasky's behavior without my making this giant post about it.

the first 4 votes were RVS... nothing serious, you are right there...
the other two are totally serious
and by the way, I play as I like, I'm not going to change my playing-style just because you say so...

Noncommittal behavior, pointless voting, etc, it's all there. But wait. I already had my FOS on Tasky.

wowowo... let's recall your FoS post:

I'm going to mimic Minii's vote on Chihuahua and his FOS on Tasky.

VOTE: Chihuahua

which was mimicing this post:

^ Big scumtell. You didn't give any new information, all you did was recycle information and jump on an already existing bandwagon.

FoS: Tasky

Still keeping my chihuahua vote though.

1. I did not recycle information... if you really think so, I want you to quote each one of my posts and link to the post were that information already showed up
2. this is much worse: you accused me for recycling information and how did you do that?

copying another player's (youngminii's) post

... now,

that's

recycling information and jumping on bandwagons (FoS-wagons in this case)
if you want other examples of the same thing, there here are more:
first one
second one
so, shouldn't you FoS yourself by that reasoning?

[Tasky]

oh... I just saw AWA requested replacement...
no need to keep my vote then...

I don't know whether AClockworkMelon is scum, but even if he isn't his play is definitely harming town (not expressing opinions, not reading thread carefully, etc)
so, I'll put my 7th vote on him:
UNVOTE: AWA
VOTE: AClockworkMelon

[Tasky]

the logical fallacy was there... he was saying inconsistency is always a scum-tell, I answered that it's one only if it's related to actual game issues

Are you blind or are you being intentionally disingenuous? It's right there in the quoted text. He was saying that inconsistency was a scumtell

if it's related to game issues

.

if you compare the reasons for the vote to the reasons of the votes before and after it, you'll see that your post is nonsense...
I didn't think that small fallacy was a scum-tell... but it's better to vote for a small error than for a random reason

Again, I'm just going to roll my eyes at

symbolic

voting. See? -> Btw, there was no small error. Yet again (all together now), he said that inconsistency is only a scumtell if it's related to game issues- exactly the same thing as you said.

yeah... but then he went on to say: "Going out of your way to point out the spelling errors in the sample PM while yourself using h8 in place of hate (along with other issues) is being self-inconsistent." and this is not related to actual game issues...
but magna already cleared this issue... I still don't think that was a scum-tell, only a slight misunderstanding (maybe on my side)...
as I said I voted because there was nothing better at that moment

Apparently we've regressed to the RVS.

hmmm... maybe that's because that post

was

in RVS... please read the game-thread before posting bullshit

"2+2=4"
"Maybe that's because 2+2=4, please read the equation before posting bullshit."

I don't get this...could you make your point a little more explicit?
you attacked me because I "regressed to the RVS" so I pointed out that it actually was RVS. since it seems like you didn't understand that I thought that you might not have read the game thread well enough... attacking without reading definitely is a scum-tell

[Tasky]

Apparently we've regressed to the RVS.

hmmm... maybe that's because that post

was

in RVS... please read the game-thread before posting bullshit

"2+2=4"
"Maybe that's because 2+2=4, please read the equation before posting bullshit."

I don't get this...could you make your point a little more explicit?
you attacked me because I "regressed to the RVS" so I pointed out that it actually was RVS. since it seems like you didn't understand that I thought that you might not have read the game thread well enough... attacking without reading definitely is a scum-tell

You keep insisting that I haven't read the thread. I assure you that I have. You said that you'd voted for Magna for a reason. If you have a reason to vote for someone that means your vote isn't random. But you later went back to random voting. That's all that I pointed out. I really don't understand why you're making a big deal out of this point.

ah, I finally understand your point...
now I can answer to it:
I went back to a random vote, since MoI cleared the issue so it was worthless insisting on that point... and since there still was no usable evidence and we were still in RVS, I cast another random vote...
I insisted you didn't read the post because I thought you thought that vote was not in the RVS (which is obviously wrong)

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

AClockworkMelon... I'd still like to see a comment to this:

Noncommittal behavior, pointless voting, etc, it's all there. But wait. I already had my FOS on Tasky.

wowowo... let's recall your FoS post:

I'm going to mimic Minii's vote on Chihuahua and his FOS on Tasky.

VOTE: Chihuahua

which was mimicing this post:

^ Big scumtell. You didn't give any new information, all you did was recycle information and jump on an already existing bandwagon.

FoS: Tasky

Still keeping my chihuahua vote though.

1. I did not recycle information... if you really think so, I want you to quote each one of my posts and link to the post were that information already showed up
2. this is much worse: you accused me for recycling information and how did you do that?

copying another player's (youngminii's) post

... now,

that's

recycling information and jumping on bandwagons (FoS-wagons in this case)
if you want other examples of the same thing, there here are more:
first one
second one
so, shouldn't you FoS yourself by that reasoning?

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

At this point I’m fairly certain that a good number of scum will be found among Chi, Lemon, ACM, and Retro.

I totally agree... therefore I'd like to suggest something
Lemon -> RetroAudio -> chihuahua0 -> AClockworkMelon -> Lemon
I'd like everyone of you four to post an

in-depth

ISO-analysis of the player following you in this list
by in-depth I really mean what I said... I want you to comment on every post (if the post is a null tell, comment to it anyway and just say so) and add an evaluation from -1 to +1 to each post (with -1 being scummiest, +1 being towniest, 0 being a null-tell)...
then of course I want you to do the sums and post a concluding comment

[Tasky]

I just noted that Untrod Tripod isn't posting since friday...

@mod:

please prod him
Untrod, if you read this, post! (I expect a large catch-up post...)

and obviously I agree with this:

@Chevre and Mindgamer

– Your slots need more content from them, stat.

I expect a catch-up post from both of you, especially Chevre (since AWA hasn't posted nothing at all so far)

PS: I know it has already been said, but I really think we need those posts, so I insist

[Tasky]

I was mimicking his vote and FOS, not his reasoning verbatim.

and what do you think about the reasoning?

[Tasky]

and what do you think about my idea on you, lemon, retro and chihuahua?

quoting my own post:

At this point I’m fairly certain that a good number of scum will be found among Chi, Lemon, ACM, and Retro.

I totally agree... therefore I'd like to suggest something
Lemon -> RetroAudio -> chihuahua0 -> AClockworkMelon -> Lemon
I'd like everyone of you four to post an

in-depth

ISO-analysis of the player following you in this list
by in-depth I really mean what I said... I want you to comment on every post (if the post is a null tell, comment to it anyway and just say so) and add an evaluation from -1 to +1 to each post (with -1 being scummiest, +1 being towniest, 0 being a null-tell)...
then of course I want you to do the sums and post a concluding comment

[Tasky]

Lemon, it wouldn't hurt if someone would actually quote the question that "I was evading". I never got that.

this:

what exactly do you mean by misleading? isn't that a bad thing?
how is "innocent" a playing-style?

this was your answer:

I mean Misleading as in "So close but so far, so far but so close." Innocent is a fail word that popped into my mind, I don't know how also O.O

now, this is dodging to me...


and this:

how can "inquiring" be synonymous to "pointless defensiveness"?? really don't get that point

I was asking questions, trying to put pressure, try to get info... how can getting info be bad?

you didn't give any answer to this


and this:

Because the question is basically stupid and nonsense. You should know that.

Now how would you know?

and now this:

Lemon -> RetroAudio -> chihuahua0 -> AClockworkMelon -> Lemon
I'd like everyone of you four to post an

in-depth

ISO-analysis of the player following you in this list
by in-depth I really mean what I said... I want you to comment on every post (if the post is a null tell, comment to it anyway and just say so) and add an evaluation from -1 to +1 to each post (with -1 being scummiest, +1 being towniest, 0 being a null-tell)...
then of course I want you to do the sums and post a concluding comment

[Tasky]

So what are you saying?

?
who are you talking to?
what do you mean?

PS: do this:

Lemon -> RetroAudio -> chihuahua0 -> AClockworkMelon -> Lemon
I'd like everyone of you four to post an

in-depth

ISO-analysis of the player following you in this list
by in-depth I really mean what I said... I want you to comment on every post (if the post is a null tell, comment to it anyway and just say so) and add an evaluation from -1 to +1 to each post (with -1 being scummiest, +1 being towniest, 0 being a null-tell)...
then of course I want you to do the sums and post a concluding comment

[Tasky]

I don't know whether AClockworkMelon is scum,

That looks horrible. Commit to an opinion! Is AClockworkMelon scum or not?

this is only a partial quote... of course I cannot

know

whether he is scum but as I said "I don't know whether AClockworkMelon is scum, but even if he isn't his play is definitely harming town (not expressing opinions, not reading thread carefully, etc)" so I think his posts are totally harming town, and yes, I think he is scummy for that...

Lemon, Tasky, commit to an opinion, please.

I did a lot of times... my top scumpicks are chihuahua0, RetroAudio and AClockworkMelon... it's not the first time I say that

@Tasky

– You repeated justification of what vote was random and what vote wasn’t is looking more and more like poor justification for voting. Town has no reason to not stand behind their voting records.

the first four votes were RVS, I would be lying if I said they aren't random
from then all, I meant every vote I placed... the AWA vote was more like a prod, so I took it away as soon as I knew he asked for replacement.

[Tasky]

And to Magna, I never agreed with anyone that I was behaving scummily.

The agreement doesn’t have to be explicit to have happened. You accused someone of looking for an easy lynch when voting for you. By inference an easy lynch is directed at someone who is playing in a scummy manner.

Being an easy lynch does not mean scummy.

I would also like to weigh in on the ACM debate: ACM, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that you don't like posting very much at a time. I don't really feel that this is scumtell, but I get the feeling that you feel that the less you post, the less people can pick apart. I'm getting a null read on him, but due to the fact that he seems to like quoting more than restating, I think we need more info from him before we can claim to have a good read on him.

I typically post a lot, but in other games I've played in I've been criticized for being too active. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

link,link,link... please link the exact post where you were criticized for being too active...

[Tasky]

I don't think it is a problem if you post a link, as long as you are already out of that game... it's quite useless for us if you are not, since we can make metatells if your alignment of that game isn't known

[Tasky]

I have a little question (well, technically not a question) for everybody who is defending chihuahua0 for a reason which is even remotely connected to the fact that he is (or seems) a newbie... basically this is for Lemon and nopointactingup, but answers are welcome from everybody who would like to answer

make up a sample post (very approximative, you can also explain what would be in it), which could be written by chihuahua0 and which satisfies following conditions:
a. It would make you vote for him if he posted it.
b. If another post was even slightly less scummy than that post, you would not vote chihuahua0 for it.

[Tasky]

make up a sample post (very approximative, you can also explain what would be in it), which could be written by chihuahua0 and which satisfies following conditions:
a. It would make you vote for him if he posted it.
b. If another post was even slightly less scummy than that post, you would not vote chihuahua0 for it.

What is the point of this exercise?

look... assume we don't lynch chihuahua0 for his noob pass, even if did nothing but drop scum-tells so far... I want to know how far his noob pass goes and what it can cover...
I'd like to hear from those who protect him if they will ever accept to lynch him and if there will ever be a moment where they don't use the noob pass... because if there is no such possibility, then that would mean that chihuahua get's unlynchable and that's not acceptable

[Tasky]

You could have just said that and not asked us to make a coaching sample post for scum to use...

I'm giving chihuahua0 the newbie pass only for as long as my tolerance permits. chihuahua0 is not unlynchable. At some point, either he's a huge liability or newbie scum. I'm giving him a huge leeway because some of the stuff he says feels more newbie to me than scummy -- which just points to null.

well... it was not really addressed to you... in fact it was especially for Lemon (and nopointactingup)...
the thing with the sample post does two things at once:
1. I know what the consider the limit of the noob pass
2. I see how they consider chihuahua0's play, what they expect him to do or not do... that can be a good tell later
basically my point is that I don't accept this noob pass, since I see no way it will stop...
and if anything chihuahua does just gets covered by that pass, we are never going to get a read on him that's somehow "accepted"

@magma: it's absolutely not theoretic... I want to know how far chihuahua's noob pass goes...
I'd really like Lemon and nopointactingup to answer my request...

[Tasky]

Tasky, nobody is going to respond positively to your request because it's BS.

People feel that Chihuahua's current behavior is more indicative of noobishness than scum. You asking people to provide examples of what it would take for him to seem like scum is obnoxious. Next time you get a town read on someone we'll drill you for a sample post of what it would take from them to look like scum. It's a waste of time and frankly I think you're just being a distraction at this point.

no... I want to know whether people would be ever willing to lynch chihuahua...
I asked for it, I'd like an answer... a townie would have no problem answering me even if they don't agree that it's useful since they have nothing to hide...
and another thing, I really don't like how you pretend to judge others like that...

PS: I'll be

V/LA 15.07 - 31.07

[Tasky]

...no... I want to know whether people would be ever willing to lynch chihuahua...

This sounds pretty shady considering you aren't already voting for chi.

I didn't say I want to lynch chihuahua0, I said that I want to know if the ones who use the noob pass are prefixed that chihuahua is not to be lynched since he is noob or if they allow limits to the noob card...

PS @fuzzyman: who are you replacing?

[Tasky]

Unvote, vote: Chihuahua

wow... this looks strange... in your whole post you give no reason for this, you talk about MoI, about other things, and then go on to vote chihuahua0. Opportunistic voting maybe?

I really don't like how you pretend to judge others like that...

Irony. Do you have any idea how pretentious you sound with these

requests

demands?

everybody scumhunts in his way... just because you don't like my way, that doesn't mean it can't be effective...

[Tasky]

but you see the problem with chihuahua0, do you?
he has done nothing but make scummy posts and we are supposed to let him go because he is a noob... I want to know where the limit to this madness is...

[Tasky]

but you see the problem with chihuahua0, do you?
he has done nothing but make scummy posts and we are supposed to let him go because he is a noob... I want to know where the limit to this madness is...

chihuahua0 has apparently reached the limit of your tolerance.

My limit is none of your business, scum.

Drop it. Compliance with your request is anti-town,

and with the exception of Lemon, everyone else who defended chihuahua0 has already put their foot down

.

Find some other way to push for a chihuahua0 lynch

. It's clear your method is not productive.

@bolded: in fact my post was especially for lemon to answer...
@underlined: where exactly am I pushing a chihuahua0 lynch?

so you chihuahua0 didn't reach your limit, did he?

I'll drop my idea then, since you all didn't accept it that well... just a tip: maybe you should be a little more open for new ways to play this game... it seems like you all think there is just one right way to play...

[Tasky]

Your request was, initially, addressed to whomever was defending chihuahua0. After I confronted you, you narrowed it down to nopointinactingup and Lemon. Now that you've seen more antagonism, you claim that you made the request specifically for Lemon. None of this adds up. If it was your intention to directly address it to Lemon from the start, you should have said so; lack of specificity just means anyone can answer it.

basically this is for Lemon and nopointactingup, but answers are welcome from everybody who would like to answer

[Tasky]

Oh, were you not pushing for a chihuahua0 lynch? I thought the purpose of the request was to determine how far chihuahua0 needed to go before we could lynch him.

and how is [determining limit for lynch] = [pushing for lynch]?

No, chihuahua0 has not yet reached my limit. Otherwise, my vote would be on him and not on you.

and why aren't you voting him? the noob pass?

I'm open to new ways of playing this game. Your idea was just of more benefit to the mafia than to the town, and your insistence led me to believe your request was made to benefit you in particular. I do not appreciate your accusation that we are being close-minded. I do not see any evidence of that going on here; however, if you have a problem with the way we're playing this game, take it to Mafia Discussion.

I'm sorry, I really don't wanted to offend anyone... this however is not the first time I get attacked just because I do things that are somewhat unusual (and in my mind useful), so I wanted to express that, it's nothing against you in particular... maybe we just have a totally different conception of what does and what doesn't help scum since all the experience I have comes from face-to-face-mafia

[Tasky]

@mod: please don't replace me... I found a way to have internet connection and will be able to post every 2/3 days...

[Tasky]

ok, I'm back from V/LA... I'll do some reread and post as soon as possible

[Tasky]

AClockworkMelon:

Active lurked in the beginning,

...

Verdict: Leaning Town

I must say I'd really dislike this post on day 1 since I really had the feeling ACM was scum. But since ACM flipped town, I think this post is somehow pro-town. Scum wouldn't pull a townie out of the dirt in a situation where they are looking scummy.

It's a common sense rule that you don't necessarily vote for someone you want to lynch.

when would that be the case?

Not to be an ass, nhammen, but post 119 is really more about attacking RA than it is about defending Tasky. At the time, Tasky seemed more reasonable whereas at this point he's seeming a little *too* into getting people to do what he says. I'm not disagreeing with his method, exactly, because I think his getting people to post actively has revealed quite a bit about each player, but the last set of questions certainly were, as people have pointed out, a little ridiculous. I'm not sure it's fair to jump on him about that, though. He just went a little far. The rest of his play, imo, has been solid.

this post makes Untrod look like slightly townish to me... at the beginning he wanted to take distance from me, by saying he was not directly defending me. scum wouldn't do that, since they know I'm town. They would either defend me outright to get towncred, or attack me one way or another.

Speculating on replacing out is WIFOM.

How so?

this looks a lot like "fake-dumb-play-to-pretend-to-be-scumhunting"

Thus I'm not convinced. However, I noted the fact that Tasky has been quite inactive since he's been call out.

I was V/LA

However, ACM's recent posts are decent, so I'm looking into other people right now.

same argument as above, I somehow like this

I do believe chi could be Tasky's partner, though. (Although, I am learning to not place so much weight on my Day 1 reads. It never ends well).

I dislike this kind of posts a lot. throwing dogmas around while keeping yourself out of it.

HI. Nice timing there, sir!

Vote: Tasky

please explain this post...

Vote: Tasky

you too, explain this

Over-excitedness is even more solid of a case seeing as there is a trend of newer players liking being scum and thus get excited and jittery which is how I view Taskys early play.

<__< ... I

hate

being scum...

If a player is confirmed Town, but is playing badly, should he be lynched?

If a player is highly likely to be Town, but is playing badly, does he deserve to be lynched?

If player A is more likely to be Town than player B, but player A is playing worse than player B, which player should you lynch?

In other words, where do you draw the line with this "standard" of yours?

Bold – How is the player confirmed?
Underlined – How do you define highly likely?
Italics – Again, how are you defining more likely?

were those questions really necessary? are you sure you didn't just want to make nhammen look stupid?

I found this section hilariously funny. You see, youngminii was replaced by Shattered Viewpoint on July 14th, 1:49 PM. Since that time, Shattered Viewpoint has made 7 posts. I encourage everybody to read the ISO, but here is a summary:

...

Now, I know that the Tasky bandwagon is rolling. And, for many reasons already explained, I am also suspicious of Tasky, and would be perfectly satisfied if that was the lynch. But this is ridiculous. I will VOTE: Shattered Viewpoint

I like this post

nhammen is still scummy and I will explain why after answering a few inquiries directed towards me.

this makes a lot of my alarm-bells ring... let's see if you figure out why... (little hint, it's related with townies wanting to find the truth and scum wanting to survive)

Just noticed something while looking through votes...

Chevre: Who do you think is scum?

what did you notice?

Anyways, the Chi ordeal is over, I don't see why we should talk about it now.

why not? talking => info => scumhunt => good

unvote Espeonage

I guess. I'm not convinced that Lemon wasn't scum, but I'll at least cool it on his replacement for the time being. I'm not sure how I feel about this Tasky bandwagon that's formed. I don't really get a scum reading from him, I just get an over-exuberant townie read on him. I felt, reading his posts, that he just thought the best way to catch scum is to get everyone to say as much as possible. I think that's a pretty reasonable thing to want to do. When the town said "I'm not sure why this particular exercize is helpful", he said "ah, fuck it, then" for that particular question and left it at that.

I'm just not convinced that he deserves to be at L-2 for that

. That's all.

Though I'm not one of Tasky's attacker, I'm not liking this post defending him.

what exactly don't you like?

I think we'd all do well to remember that the person with the most votes is lynched at deadline. So unless Tasky's wagon brilliantly falls apart at the last moment, he's dead.

hmm... looks like I'm still alive... what do you say now?
why were you so sure I'd die?

What makes you think that Tasky's misstep was bad logic and not a scumslip? Hell, what makes any possible set of thinly disguised scum information probes distinct from bad logic? I could ask everybody in the game for an essay on how they go about scumhunting, how they've gone about scumhunting, and how they intend to go about scumhunting, but you might still dismiss it as a misguided attempt at productivity, bad logic.

tunnelling?!?

Fair enough. My playstyle is scummy. I'll grant that.

Sometimes I do feel that it is better to just vote and let scum furthur incriminate themselves. In other cases I will make my cases. It is amazing the holes scum dig for themselves when you deny them an explaination of their wrongs.

you are scum.

No one is going to get my vote until I find them suspicious enough. No one has achieved that yet.

How high are you setting the bar, Chevre?

wowowowowo... weren't you the one saying "We know what the limit of our tolerance is. If chihuahua0 reaches that limit, you will know. Until then, since this is not a newbie game, I have no obligation to tell you how someone needs to play."

Ok now. I am harbouring a few secret reads. At the moment there are 5 scum. Two are big reads and one backs the pother up. Chevre. Prove to me that the other reads are the ones to follow.

you are scum.

Be happy because she is cleared. duh.

why?

Chevre, we don't trust you to abstain from voting Tasky at the last minute and creating a tied vote, thus forcing no lynch at deadline. Vote now.

you really want to see me dead, don't you?

Btw. If Chevre is scum Tasky is a likely buddy.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

not obvious at all to me...

Chevre is obviously a scum flailing, I will put her at L-1 and ask her to claim.

Unvote:Vote:Chevre

bad, very bad... you seem to be very interested in the claim... the L-1 argument is nonsense, since at deadline Chevre would die anyway... you voting is not going to make a claim better, since it's less probable enough townies can get off the wagon in case the claim is credible... I think you just wanted to lynch

At that point the Tasky wagon was going nowhere and had no momentum. As I said there are 'always' more than one scum in a game. Now at that point Tasky was my top suspect but the game was stagnant so I decided a new direction was needed. After reading Tripod's case I was happy that Chevre would make a good scumbuddy for Tasky so I went with that. Chevre then solidified my read.

this looks more like scum trying to find a townie-wagon to jump on... after the wagon on me "had no momentum" you just switched to a likelier lynch

If not, I'll give insight on my Tasky read.

why not do it immediately?

He's V/LA. I may be a total jerk, but I don't like lynching people while they're V/LA unless I'm as close to 100% as humanly possible certain that they are scum. Usually it involves a role claim or strong process of elimination. That's not what we have here.

this post feels townish... or maybe it's just your personality

Ok now I understand that there is a large amount of confirmation bias here. In light of nhammens last little tib bit on me for the future this may look bad but I propose a derail of the chevre wagon and a move back to Tasky. i still think tasky is scum and should he not be my whole case on Chevre falls apart and I wouldn't ote for her again.

UNVOTE: Chevre
VOTE: Tasky

I think you just want to get cred for having tried to derail a townie-wagon

Espeonage: Hell no. We are hours away from deadline. If you're trying to force a No Lynch, I will rain fire balls on your scummy butt.

Wait hours?

oh.

UNVOTE: Tasky
VOTE: Chevre

I think you wanted to let Chevre be lynched at deadline without hammer and you off the wagon, but then when town put pressure back on you you jumped back on... if you'd really think Chevre was the wrong vote, you shouldn't have voted him again, especially since there were no new arguments

I don't have as good read on this game as I have with others. Yesterday, I had a town read on Tasky but now all the evidence apparently points to Tasky-scum.

what exactly were those points?

Eh I give up.
VOTE: Tasky

what do you give up?

Vote Count Analysis –

I’m going to be looking at the vote-counts from each post by Zang in relation to Chevre and Tasky. I’m also going to go through Tasky’s ISO and list his votes in order.

...
blablabla
...

Right now with Chevre flipping Town I’m more inclined to approach from the presumption that Tasky is scum. Especially in light of the fact that all the players on Tasky's end of day wagon were confirmed Town.

A deeper look into NoPoint, Tripod and Quoi is in order.

what exactly is your conclusion from all your vote count analysis?

but Tasky's flip will reveal a lot as there are clear connections between him with various live players.

I'll flip town... so actually you could tell me already what that connections are you would find out...

Ok Manga solidifies my trust in a tasky wagon today. Let's leave NK spec until tomorrow when we have some more info. I think we are in a bit of a rut post wise until Tasky gets back. Once he does we can really kick start this day.

what exactly did magna say you liked about me? could you restate in your own words?


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conclusion:
two biggest townreads:
Untrod Tripod, Equinox

two biggest scumreads:
Espeonage, Shattered Viewpoint

[Tasky]

EBWOP...
this should have been the start of the post:

I haven't looked into this forum for 2 weeks now, so my opinions are very likely different from how they were earlier. I'll just reread the part from where I dropped out, and make comments on that part (especially since it's the time were most of the replacements jumped in)
and also keep in mind that I'm rereading the thread chronologically, so it could be I answer to something someone else already answered to.

ok, here is my big bad catch-up-post:

[Tasky]

It's a common sense rule that you don't necessarily vote for someone you want to lynch.

when would that be the case?

How many people have you voted for Tasky? Does it mean you want to lynch all 8 of them?

wait... you were saying that it can be, that you want to lynch someone, but don't vote for him... and I wanted to know when...
I have voted for a lot of people, so what? I did not not-vote-for-someone-I-want-to-lynch
probably just a misunderstanding though.

1. Do you believe Tasky to be scum?
2. What did you accomplish by ‘pressuring’ SV?

2. I'd like to think that my pressure got him posting something substantive. And for a brief period at the end of day 1, it did (SV was actually posting substantive content). However, he has fallen back to his old ways. As such, I guess my attempts to pressure him have ultimately failed. I also feel that my turning my attention to SV might have led to a weakening of the Tasky wagon, and may have ultimately led to the Chevre lynch. So, my "accomplishments" are

an SV who is still lurking, and a dead townie

. Go me.

Orly he's a townie? And how would you know?

hmmm, let me think... he flipped?

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Untrod Tripod, I like your post...
I think I should vote now
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shattered Viewpoint

[Tasky]

The thing that sells me on Tasky more likely being scum is based on meta. Tasky usually says a lot of stuff to qualify his moves, but in that post above, he voted Shattered Viewpoint based on liking your post, Untrod Tripod. Forgoing saying a lot of stuff to qualify his vote; that's not something that makes me see Tasky as sincere with that vote.

wait... on what meta are you relying on exactly?
btw, I posted against SV before UT did... hist post just convinced me definitely to vote

[Tasky]

Well, aren't you a wall-of-texter, Tasky? And what about UT's post convinced you to vote?

I don't understand your point... yeah, I am a wall-o'-texter, so what?
just look at that post... he summarizes the whole SV behavior. SV has done nothing so far but jump back and forth between me and Chevre, without giving any explanation at all.

The thing that sells me on Tasky more likely being scum is based on meta. Tasky usually says a lot of stuff to qualify his moves, but in that post above, he voted Shattered Viewpoint based on liking your post, Untrod Tripod. Forgoing saying a lot of stuff to qualify his vote; that's not something that makes me see Tasky as sincere with that vote.

wait... on what meta are you relying on exactly?
btw, I posted against SV before UT did... hist post just convinced me definitely to vote

um...that post was about Espeonage...

? what post are you referring to? your post definitely was on SV...

what exactly is your conclusion from all your vote count analysis?

Do you understand the point of a vote-count analysis? It gave me two discrete sets of players in whom I think I we will find the majority if not all of the scum. Which set the scum likely lie in is driven by your alignment.

honestly, no... I didn't understand that... how exactly do you get those sets? could you elucidate a little?

@Tasky

– What is your opinion of Tripod’s 525?

I don't think it's about the content. It looks like he wants to make us think about the night-kills, which isn't bad, I think.
What do you think? why are you asking me about that post in particular?

[Tasky]

omg... you are right...
I don't know how, but I was convinced that was about SV...

well, the point still holds so:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Espeonage

[Tasky]

#559. Though, it's always a pleasure to show how ridiculous walls of texts are.

Not more ridiculous than content free one-liners

and definitely not more ridiculous than content-free answers to one-liners... xD

[Tasky]

Tazaro, Espeonage and SV all were on both your and Chevre’s wagons late. If you are Town then I suspect that one or more of them were scum looking for any easy lynch target at the end of the day.

fair point... this matches with my current scumpicks too...

I don't think it's about the content. It looks like he wants to make us think about the night-kills, which isn't bad, I think.
What do you think? why are you asking me about that post in particular?

Stating that the best place to being looking for scum is in the Nightkills is scummy. Nightkill analysis is WIFOM-laden at best.

I asked you about it because you suddenly have a strong Town read on Tripod and wanted to get a sense of how that post factored into your read.

I don't think NK-analysis is necessarily bad... you see, if people start doing it, scum will be forced to adjust their Night Actions and can't play as straightforward as they'd like to... this is a hindrance for them and therefore good for town... but I don't think that particular post accomplished that, it was more about asking questions and as I said, no content... so I actually don't attribute any importance to that post... null-read...

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Well, it was a subtle point, but I do think scum have more interest in action than townies. Townies may be more uninterested.

uuuu_UU...
you sure about this? no action = no information... that's what scum wants...
if scum could choose, they wouldn't post at all, since that would avoid making slips... of course town should pressure people enough to make them talk...
I'd like to hear a response to this from you soon...

[Tasky]

I already said that Tazaro's case is based of reading my posts out of context.

Tazaro's case isn't the only one though...

[Tasky]

@ Tasky: I'll answer your case.

please do this...

[Tasky]

omg... you are right...
I don't know how, but I was convinced that was about SV...

well, the point still holds so:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Espeonage

This is scummy. If the crux of your argument is solely that post then you should be bringing more to the table.

I already posted that SV and Espeonage were my top suspects... UT's post made me go in one direction instead of the other.


_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

looking at Tazaro...
I think he is scum if and only if Espeonage is town.
And since I'm quite convinced Espeonage is scum, for now I don't think Tazaro is a good lynch.
I'm waiting to see Espeonage's answer to my case before deciding... (I'd ask all of you not to comment on that case until Espeonage has posted, so that he has to expose his own point of view)

[Tasky]

I don't understand how I'm scum if Espeonage is town, Tasky.

since you think that Espeonage is scum (your last vote is on him after all), that implication shouldn't worry you...

[Tasky]

since you think that Espeonage is scum (your last vote is on him after all), that implication shouldn't worry you...

It should worry him. You aren’t establishing why he’d be scum if Esp is Town. Based on my vote count analysis I find that Taz is more likely to be Town if Esp is Town. If anything this looks like lining up lynches ... which I think is scumtastic.

look... actually my post was much more focussed on the "only if" side, in fact as you can read it was actually a defense on Taz...
as I read this post my first thought was "should Esp flip town, Taz is definitely scum"... I can't really explain it, it flashed into my mind... then I forgot it, since I had no real reason for it, but as soon as I posted the "only if" thing, I thought of it again and added the "if" part.

I already posted that SV and Espeonage were my top suspects... UT's post made me go in one direction instead of the other.

I saw that post. Here are some questions / comments to you about it.

1. Quoting someone and responding with ‘You are scum’ is not building a case. You do make some more illuminating points against Esp but nothing of significance I can see against SV. How did he earn a top Scumread from you?
2. How can you have Equinox be one of your biggest Townreads and then make a statement that if Esp (one of your strongest Scumreads) is Town he is scum?

1. I'd like to wait to answer the first part of your question until Espeonage responds to my case (the good points).
for the second part, I really dislike his dogmatic approach to mafia... he says things and that's it... no arguments, nothing at all, just votes. added to active lurking it was scummy enough to make it on my top-scum list... as soon as UT posted that post which I misread it was enough for a vote.
2. I don't remember saying anything of the sort, could you quote the post?, I can't find it. And what exactly is the contradiction you see?

Things that are troubling –

bad, very bad... you seem to be very interested in the claim... the L-1 argument is nonsense, since at deadline Chevre would die anyway... you voting is not going to make a claim better, since it's less probable enough townies can get off the wagon in case the claim is credible... I think you just wanted to lynch

Horrible logic. The point of putting Chevre at L-1 and asking for a claim is to prevent the mislynch of a Town PR. If she claimed Cop, for example, the wagon could be shifted to another scummy candidate.

the logic holds... as a townie, he should just have asked for a claim, since Chevre would die anyway at deadline if nothing changed, so the threat was real anyway (no need for L-1). But should Chevre claim a PR, it would be easier to get the wagon from tracks with one less vote on it since no-absolute-majority isn't enough to avoid the mislynch.

what exactly were those points?

NoPoint clearly laid out his case at 523.

he did that after making the post I was responding to there...

what do you give up?

As I said to Taz … why aren’t you reading for context. Esp was clearly giving up his request that everyone say ‘I am not Vig’ shown at ISO 31.

yeah, I understood that later...

UNVOTE: NoPoint– since no-one seems likely to join me on NoPoint I’m not going to keep my vote unproductive any longer.

do you think Nopoint is more or less scummy than me or Esp?

[Tasky]

What does redtail think about Espeonage? I'm not going to be lynched today, so why keep your vote on me, redtail? I think it's time to move the game forward with lynching someone because the deadline's not far off and no-lynch is bad.

this is exactly what I mean by the implication [Espeonage town => Tazaro scum]... why the hell would you want to lynch faster than necessary? No-Lynch is almost impossible, since absolute majority isn't needed at deadline and I don't think a draw will happen. What problem do you have with him keeping his vote on you if you think you are not going to be lynched?
On the other side this also reinforces the [Tazaro scum => Espeonage town] implication. It doesn't look like bussing to me.

[Tasky]

Esp, there are still some things you ought to respond to:

At that point the Tasky wagon was going nowhere and had no momentum. As I said there are 'always' more than one scum in a game. Now at that point Tasky was my top suspect but the game was stagnant so I decided a new direction was needed. After reading Tripod's case I was happy that Chevre would make a good scumbuddy for Tasky so I went with that. Chevre then solidified my read.

this looks more like scum trying to find a townie-wagon to jump on... after the wagon on me "had no momentum" you just switched to a likelier lynch

Ok now I understand that there is a large amount of confirmation bias here. In light of nhammens last little tib bit on me for the future this may look bad but I propose a derail of the chevre wagon and a move back to Tasky. i still think tasky is scum and should he not be my whole case on Chevre falls apart and I wouldn't ote for her again.

UNVOTE: Chevre
VOTE: Tasky

I think you just want to get cred for having tried to derail a townie-wagon

Espeonage: Hell no. We are hours away from deadline. If you're trying to force a No Lynch, I will rain fire balls on your scummy butt.

Wait hours?

oh.

UNVOTE: Tasky
VOTE: Chevre

I think you wanted to let Chevre be lynched at deadline without hammer and you off the wagon, but then when town put pressure back on you you jumped back on... if you'd really think Chevre was the wrong vote, you shouldn't have voted him again, especially since there were no new arguments

Ok Manga solidifies my trust in a tasky wagon today. Let's leave NK spec until tomorrow when we have some more info. I think we are in a bit of a rut post wise until Tasky gets back. Once he does we can really kick start this day.

what exactly did magna say you liked about me? could you restate in your own words?

and second, what happened with your suspicions on me?
this was the only post you made where you cleared me, what happened to the following accusation you made earlier?

Now. Tasky is scum. I have seen it so many times when wishy washy voting is the explaination for what he has done. It is worse than that. Now unless tasky is a noob which he doesn't come accross as then he is obv scum. That was early day one scum nerves. Now if he were a newbie than a non newbie game would be enough to entice this reaction. He seemed to be so much more into the game than he should have and seemed to me to be grasping for purchase on a vote wether it was the RVS or not.
So for now. VOTE: Tasky

and another question:
since Quoi is going to be replaced anyway, would you mind disclose your secret read with us?
and while you are at it, how about your other secret reads?

[Tasky]

Double Post: I feel it is my duty to:

VOTE: Tasky

why is it your duty?
what are your reasons?

[Tasky]

Ok well running under the assumption that people are correct in that if I am town Tazaro is scum then VOTE: Tazaro because I am town.

sorry for the triple post, but why do you take that assumption as true?
in your own words please

[Tasky]

Double Post: I feel it is my duty to:

VOTE: Tasky

why is it your duty?
what are your reasons?

The Espeonage cases are bad, so making the vote count become a tie is right.

you are acting scummier every minute...
I might have to change my vote if it continues like this

[Tasky]

O_O... MoI hammered...

Bah! go scum!

Spoiler: ...

just joking... GO TOWN!!