Lay of Leithian Mafia: Game Over!

[Elmocrates]

Finding scum is pretty cool and all, but there are more pressing issues that need to be addressed at this time:

This account still doesn't have an avatar, and I can't think of a good one.

Suggestions?

(I'll let elmo do the random voting.)

[Elmocrates]

Vote: Elmocrates

For not random voting. First scumdar *ding* of the game.

27 posts. about twice as long as I expected it to go before someone voted me.

I believe the next step on this tired song and dance is that I say that random voting is useless. Then someone else says that doing nothing is worse. Yadayadayada we are on page six and I have a big wagon on me and am the default lynch of the day. Whoo.

Lets try and take this in a different direction. When you consider the fact that not random voting almost always without fail draws suspicion on the perpetrator, why in the world would scum not random vote?

In other news: Xvart is my first scum suspect.

vote:Xvart

[Elmocrates]

Greetings. Happy hunting.

Claimed scum?

Vote: Elscouta

. Die.

xvart.

So you are telling me that you think Elscouta seriously claimed scum in his first post?

[Elmocrates]

Anyone: What's this about policy & Sens?
Sens: I assume you believe anti-town ≠ scummy. Why anti-town before scummy? Would you lynch someone for being anti-town before scummy?
CyberBob/xvart: Why do you think scum are (not) more likely to joke about being scum?
xvart: How exactly is just throwing a vote out applying useful scrutiny?

[Elmocrates]

This is Elmo. All posts except my last were Socrates. Signing might be good..

@Elmocrates, do the other Elscouta wagoner's share your suspicion?

What do you mean, 'other'? Neither me or Socrates have voted for or voiced suspicion of Elscouta.

[Elmocrates]

I don't see any thing in claiming scum/scumbuddies to be inherently town.

There's nothing in signing your name at the bottom of each post that's inherently town, either - that's obviously not sufficient to suspect someone. It has to be, you know, actually suspicious. Do you find it suspicious?

I don't have any statistics to back anything up, but the WIFOM makes me sick just thinking about it.

Someone might be scum, or they might be town. If that's sickening, Mafia must be very tough on you, no? What exactly do you dislike so much?

Well for starters it shows I'm serious about it; and second, there seems to be a leading bandwagon going so I think that is useful scrutiny.

I didn't ask why you voted him. I asked why you voted him and did nothing further. You must have a very strange definition of scrutiny if it's met by starting a bandwagon on someone and then just sitting there. How far do towards lynch do you think the bandwagon should go before you deign to ask him a question or something? You know - scrutinise him.

[Elmocrates]

@Elmocrates: To clarify: "other players voting Elscouta for the same reasons".

I don't know why you're asking me about the views of other people - asking them would make more sense..? I am really stumped by where you're going with this.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

@Elmocrates, do the other Elscouta wagoner's share your suspicion?

No. I didn't originally vote him because of his Elscouta vote, as I had dismissed that as a random vote. I voted him because of post 44 which is a whole big pile of lameness.

Then he goes and says that it wasn't a random vote and I go .

Sens, care to link me to some games where you have caught scum based off of random vote interactions?

-Crates

[Elmocrates]

I would also just like to note that xvart never did ask why I had voted him, which I find very weird. Did he not need to be told why he was scummy?

-crates

[Elmocrates]

All of these players check out with regard to posting patterns except ooba. IGMEOY: ooba

Interesting. Elaborate, please?

---

There's nothing in signing your name at the bottom of each post that's inherently town, either - that's obviously not sufficient to suspect someone. It has to be, you know, actually suspicious. Do you find it suspicious?

Nice analogy. So you are saying that claiming scumbuddies has as much inherent significance as saying your name to each post? You are suggesting that claiming scumbuddies is as anti-town/scummy as signing each post? Are you saying that people should be just as suspicious of me for signing each post as I am for suspecting someone that claims scumbuddies?!

Way to not answer the question. Unsurprisingly, I'm saying exactly what you quoted me as saying. Look:

xvart: Why do you think scum are more likely to joke about being scum?

I don't see any thing in claiming scum/scumbuddies to be inherently town. I don't have any statistics to back anything up, but the WIFOM makes me sick just thinking about it.

So apparently you suspect him because he did something that isn't inherently town. That's a crappy reason to suspect someone, because some things that aren't inherently town (like signing your name) are obviously not suspicious. I asked you to explain to me why you found it suspicious, and you haven't done that. Please do so.

So you are saying that claiming scumbuddies has as much inherent significance as saying your name to each post?

No. You can tell I'm not saying this because I didn't say it.

You are suggesting that claiming scumbuddies is as anti-town/scummy as signing each post?

No. You can tell I'm not suggesting this because I didn't suggest it.

Are you saying that people should be just as suspicious of me for signing each post as I am for suspecting someone that claims scumbuddies?!

No. You can tell I'm not saying this because I didn't say it. Please just answer the very simple question that I asked you.

I'm talking about someone saying "I'm scumbuddies" in the first post, and then being defended by "He can't possibly be scum, why would scum do something stupid like that."

Please name the people who have said that he can't possibly be scum.

What's the point of comparing those two things (signing your name, and claiming scumbuddies, I mean they're not at all similar)

You've just quoted my point. They are exactly identical in the property I stated: they're not inherently town. Suspecting someone on the basis they performed an action with that property is nonsensical. Which is the point.

---

I've talked with very good players who have played (and read) multpile games of mine, and all of them have told me I don't have any meta tells.

Please list them.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

And that is all i'm going to say at this time about that.

Why? I'm not sure how you're going to get people to vote with you. What happens if you're right, get nightkilled, and then no-one can make a case?

Yaw and Cow for sure. I'm pretty sure I also talked to Khelv about it, and I think KMD told me he couldn't come up with any meta tells on me, either.

I'd think not being able to come up with any is a bit different from asserting you don't have any. Who explicitly said which?

I'm not sure how you're eliminating the possibility that xofelf's mistaken. If you don't have any meta tells, there are good odds people will be fooled by randomness.

also elmocrates should definitely get a freaking avatar.

Unfortunately this. I'll go look...

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

I believe that someone that is town aligned would be significantly less likely to claim scumbuddies.

{..}

It is not that I think scum are necessarily more likely to joke about being scum; but I believe that town is less likely than scum to joke about it.

You coulda said that when I asked why you suspected him. Why do you think that?

Kmd and debatably, Farside

I don't see it. Neither of them say that Elscouta's even likely town.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89nRU_l3nO4

[Elmocrates]

I feel wiser already.

Scum alerting the town to the presence of a breadcrumb is a bad idea because it might tip off any protective roles that didn't see it. It would be much better as scum to just sit on that information. This Jack wagon is unremarkable.

Then again, the exchange Jack and Spyrex had made me do a double take: Jackscum

Conspiracy theory: The breadcrumb doesn't exist.

Conspiracy theory #2: [redacted]

Iecerint's wagon hop is giving me the heebie jeebies.

-crates

[Elmocrates]

Perceived "poor

scumplay

townplay" doesn't make it

townplay

scumplay. especially when there's no meta defense to justify it. I think nicemeta players are more likely to do that kind of thing as scum than as town.

By Elmo's logic, cops should claim D1, because protective roles will be able to find them, anyway.

Fixed.

nicemeta?

Thats a horrible misrepresentation of what I said, btw.

Please tell me Iecerint, why

would

Jackscum make that comment?

[Elmocrates]

This is Socrates, btw.

[Elmocrates]

First, I forgot to do something very important: Thanks for the avatar, Jah!

Second: I literally hate everything about post 189. First paragraph is a pile of nonsense. How exactly do you go about answering the question "Which would do this: town or scum?" without asking the first question? I go LOL at "In reality, poor play is what catches scum." Please back up this statement with some kind of justification.

scumJack might do it to:
1. Engender precisely this situation. (2SCUM4SCUM~!)
2. Observe reaction of perceived crumb'd.
3. Alert buddies to existence of perceived crumb to work on exposing whomever.

1) yea, a wagon on Jack. Everything is going as planned!
2) This is straight up nonsensical.
3) As I said, no reason to do that publicly. He could wait until night and tell his buddies then.

townJack might do it because:
1. He wants to give Jack an anti-town meta because he thinks anti-town play is fun. (Unlikely; Jack appears to be the primary account.)
2. He's really proud of himself for having found the Cop crumb, and he can't keep his mouth shut. (Which sort of begs the question of why he's hunting for Cop crumbs, anyway.)

Or 3) Its exactly what it looks like and he saw a cop crumb and posted that in annoyance.

So the conclusion is that the behavior is more likely to come from scumJack than townJack. I agree that it is poor scumplay, which is why I waited a little before voting him. I thought he was going somewhere with the SX exchange.

How exactly did you come to that conclusion? 3 > 2? You didn't even bother to ask yourself which of those reasons are more likely than each other?

My counterexample was a fine extrapolation of what you said IMO. Your argument (in different words) was that cops being exposed is OK because then the protective roles will know about them. Very minimal introspection will indicate that this is mistaken.

That is not what I said AT ALL. If the scum already know person X is a power role, then making a big deal about it can only serve to alert pro-town power roles. How the hell do you extend that to mean "Power roles should immediately claim"?

preview edit: I see you corrected yourself in 191.

-crates

[Elmocrates]

There is a difference between scum having a poorly thought out reason to do something and scum having no reason to do something at all.

One of my largest frustrations with the game of mafia is that I get the distinct impression that lynches (especially early ones) are almost entirely correlated with a players "skill", rather than their alignment. This phenomena is easiest to see with players like Deathnote or CSL or Zwet, who will almost always without fail be lynched at some point over the course of the game regardless of what their role is. I believe it was theFonz that once said something along the lines of "the side with the most Village Idiots loses". I feel this problem is caused by mentalities like yours, which conflates poor play as indicative of being scum.

Anyway this is more of a discussion for after the game.

Also, I am not arguing that Jack's post is a town tell or anything of the sort. I am arguing that it is a null-tell, and I don't feel you have sufficiently justified why Jack's behavior is more likely to come from scum.

People don't have to be hunting for crumbs to see them. That addresses your parentheses.

I am now leaning town on Iece. I am not ready to trust him with my first born child yet, though.

[Elmocrates]

There is a difference between scum having a poorly thought out reason to do something and scum having no reason to do something at all.

That is vacuously true, but has nothing to do with the situation at hand IMO.

One of my largest frustrations with the game of mafia is that I get the distinct impression that lynches (especially early ones) are almost entirely correlated with a players "skill", rather than their alignment. This phenomena is easiest to see with players like Deathnote or CSL or Zwet, who will almost always without fail be lynched at some point over the course of the game regardless of what their role is. I believe it was theFonz that once said something along the lines of "the side with the most Village Idiots loses".

I agree with you 100%, but, again, that has nothing to do with the situation at hand AFAIK. My only other experience with Jack is ongoing. If you have reason to believe that that sort of thing is typical townJack play, please let me know.

Sure it does. I feel you are defaulting to placing more weight to the dumb scum reasons to do something than the dumb town reasons to do it. That is to say, you are quicker to assume an anti-town motivation to poor play than a pro-town one, which is exactly the thing I am complaining about.

[Elmocrates]

-crates

[Elmocrates]

I would say "Look! you're doing it again!" but at this point we are starting to get circular and this argument has gone past the point of diminishing returns. I don't think you are scum and I don't have particular reason to think Jack is town so I am officially dropping this.

If you want, we can continue talking about this after the game.

-crates

Vote Count 08: Lynch

Starbuck - 1 - PaltryExcuse
Drippereth - 2 - Cyberbob, xvart
Steam Powered Shovel - 1 - Starbuck
SensFan - 1 - Steam-Powered Shovel,
FeFiFoFum - 1 - Jack
xvart -

7

- Elmocrates, Budja, Kmd4390, farside22, ooba, FeFiFoFum, Anon
Anon - 1 - Elscouta
MehPlusRawr - 1 - Papa Zito
xofelf - 1 - SensFan
Jack - 4 - SpyreX, Iecerint, SocioPath, J-Scope
Cyberbob - 1 - Cobalt
Papa Zito - 1 - Drippereth
Elscouta - 1 - curiouskarmadog

Not Voting (2): MehPlusRawr, xofelf

With 25 players alive it'll take 13 to lynch and 13 to no-Lynch.

There are no players in the

Halls of Mandos

, so right now there are no

Revive

or

Destroy

counts.

Happy birthday, Kmd!

[Elmocrates]

The avatar is epic. Thanks!

By Elmo's logic, cops should claim D1, because protective roles will be able to find them, anyway.

@Elmo, Jack joined years ago and has over 2k posts. I would assume he wasn't just a VI.

Can we please please not abbreviate Elmocrates as Elmo? That's going to get confusing fast. (I assume that and not just please read the post sig.) Thanks.

Iecerint: Did you think it was likely that JackScum would (future tense) do that? (I am not asking if you think Jack is likely scum given that he did that.) I don't read anything into Jack's comment; that said, I'm not terribly enamoured with his play thus far, so I'm not going to defend him.

---

I just checked every single game I've played on this site and not been replaced in; xofelf was in only 2 of those.

{..}

So yeah, no way I buy that someone of xofelf's experience has any meta tells on me. Unvote, Vote: xofelf

I never said that with you it was all games i

played

with you that gave me that. You had me read a few games where you weren't town to show me just how badly you fooled them. Also, did you count the games NOT on this site that you and i have played?

I mean, I waited to see what she'd say, but I read this post and immediately thought that she had probably

read

games you were in. I fairly regularly follow games that have players I'm interested in or happen to know. This just looks really thin, since there's no way you can reasonably know for sure whether she's seen your play as scum or not.

So yeah, no way I buy that someone of xofelf's experience has any meta tells on me.

That's a very odd way to put it, in particular. Even if she did actually (or thought she did) have a meta tell on you, you'd be arguing that she's

wrong

. The only case where it's important that she doesn't actually have a tell on you is if you're scum in this game.

I never said you had a meta either. Because, you're right, you don't. BUT the way you respond to everything is different each game depending on alignment in every case i've seen.

I'm sorry, what definition of metagaming are you using, then? That's pretty much the (or an) exact definition of having a meta. Again, why aren't you willing to say more than what you've already said?

I don't even know how to react to this because

nobody

is dumb enough to say this unsarcastically

; but on the other hand you aren't showing any objective signs of actually being sarcastic.

Do you not think that might be a sign of sarcasm?

Do not like this post. I think claiming scumbuddy just serves to confuse the town and is anti-town in some measures. (irrespective of whether town people are as likely to do it as scum). Comparing it with a neutral action like signing the name at the bottom of the post is ridiculous

It isn't, they both meet the criteria he laid out for suspecting Elscouta, which are therefore clearly wrong, as I said in the post you just quoted. I've never said they're similar beyond that.

There's a good quarter of the game not doing much.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

I still have absolutely no idea what game Jack is playing at and actively don't like it enough I really, for reallies, want him to take a rope.

There is one thing I could expect to see out of Jack that will make everyone's eyes go wide in awe and go "It all makes so much sense now!"

(Besides, best course of action for Jack is to try and get this line of discussion dropped, regardless of his alignment, which is what he appears to be doing.)

The xvart wagon has lost my interest. I believe Elmo is cool on it as well. There is nothing in his responses to the wagon that a townxvart wouldn't say nor a scumxvart couldn't say.

unvote, vote: SPS

His whining about how lame the xvart wagon is while doing no scum hunting himself is turbo scummy.

Incedentally, I have yet to find issue with a read Drip has thrown out. G'day

-crates

[Elmocrates]

Also, I like what bob is posting so far, I get the impression that Budja is happy to be a part of any wagon he can get away with, and I would have a beer with KMD and day of the week (or at least I would if I drank).

[Elmocrates]

Elmo, I was personally surprised to see Jack do that. He has seemed highly perceptive in my prior experience with him. I think he wouldn't have done that as town without an expected short-term payoff. When it didn't come, scumJack became the default assumption.

I think this is where we part ways. I don't think Jack would do it as town, and I don't think Jack would do it as scum; so I'm nonplussed that he did it at all. I don't generally get suspicious because people do things I don't understand, more because of things I do.

The move was a poor one on Jack's part. The reaction and absence of anything after that point is the real hook.

I've expressed dislike of the absence of anything much before or after that point. Jack's play looks extremely limp to me.. what about his reaction, though? (I haven't fully read the game today, so I may be missing something.)

I would be pretty happy getting on the Jack wagon, although honestly I'm not pleased about essentially rewarding Shovel for successfully keeping his head down. Not sure what my other head thinks yet.

Jack made a random cop breadcrumb comment and and

produces little content

. I found that scummy.

Do you find producing little content scummy in general? How does that compare with Jack in particular doing it?

Well that's what I was thinking, but usually when people are being sarcastic you can tell by the wording of what they're saying. I couldn't find anything in Kmd's statement of that nature so that threw me a bit.

This looks legit to me, Cobalt. Perhaps not the most natural stance, but legit; I don't think he tried to base anything off misinterpreting that. I don't find the rest of his play scummy; I do think that Iecerint's point about OMGUS & not answering the point seems true, though, I'd like a better response than "lol no" unless I've missed something.

I find Cobalt's play townish, actually. Haven't seen him as scum, though - make of that what you will.

Drippereth, why did you move your Zito / Shovel votes off so quickly? They both seemed pretty much pointless if you're not going to stick with it for any length of time. Also, I entirely do not see why Xofelf deserves a vote more than them (or Jack) at present.

I think Jack is a pretty smart guy and I've seen him do weird stuff as town or as scum. No read there for now.

This is seems slightly waffly - what do you actually think of what he did? He didn't just "do weird stuff".

Naughty List

6. Steam-Powered Shovel
7. MehPlusRawr
9. Papa Zito
14. PaltryExcuse (V/LA)
16. FeFiFoFum

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

Blah.

I am probably too quick to throw out town reads, but I like post 308 for some reason.

Meh's case on SPS makes me go :| and I almost want to get off of the SPS wagon just to avoid being associated with it. Meh needs to post more.

Iecerint continues to reinforce my town read on him, which is weird because I disagree with everything he says.

Elmo has convinced me not to go harumph at the Jack wagon.

unvote, vote: Jack

-crates

[Elmocrates]

I want to lynch xofelf real bad right now. All this out of game drama is a mega distraction, and scum loves a distraction. Possibly to distract from a buddy being in danger of being lynched.

Why doesn't this post read "I want to lynch xofelf or Sens right now"? I do wish both would post more and about someone who isn't the other, though.

It is not that I think scum are necessarily more likely to joke about being scum; but I believe that town is less likely than scum to joke about it. Additionally, scum couldn’t be that stupid to do something like that, so it could give the perfect cover for a scum to slide through like that.

I still have yet to receive anything resembling an explanation for this. Why are town less likely to do that, and why do scum want "cover" to "slide through" by doing something that (apparently) does nothing but attract attention?

Faraday: If you still care, I suggest you read the exchange between me and xvart again.

Bored now.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

Possibly to distract from a buddy being in danger of being lynched.

I don't like this, actually. So who exactly would this buddy be, and why are you just saying this without investigating it? This looks like you found a cheap way to throw suspicion on someone.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

^ Attack of the buzzwords

I see what looks like a whole lot of town on town violence over the course of these past few pages.

I want to go back to my SPS vote. I need to talk to Elmo about this.

-crates

[Elmocrates]

Our "duel" wouldn't have been anywhere near as enduring if he a) could write and b) could read

These posts really don't help.

Cobalt, if I said you were avoiding commenting on most of the game by intentionally tunnelling on Bob, what would you say?

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

Cyberbob isn't the type of player to fall for the daykill trap even if he was scum, so that maneuver was a pointless one at best.

The question I want answered is should Jack know this?

Beyond that, I think all of the current cases are fairly lame right now and am thinking a lurker wagon is the way to go right now. We have too many people in this game who are total non-entities.

I mean, MPR is total fail but at least they have posted, which is more than I can say about Ooba or FeFiFoFum.

Since I have seen FeFi lurk like this as town but I haven't seen Ooba do so (not in a "Ooba only lurks as scum!" sense, but more in a I have no meta knowledge of Ooba sense) I like that vote best.

Maybe Anon would be Ok.

unvote, vote:Ooba

How does everyone feel about a lurker wagon at this juncture?

-crates

[Elmocrates]

Someone give me the xvart case. I remember thinking it was weird and not knowing what it was about.

As I understand it, he says joking about being scum is suspicious and used it as a D1 reason. This is pretty thin at best, and a bunch of people don't believe this stance is legit. Maybe some other stuff.

A "secret towntell/scumtell" is a valid tell that cannot be elaborated on because of the rules of the board

That's rather different from what I thought you meant. Secret is, uh, something you want to keep secret. Something you can't talk about is.. that. If the rules of the board didn't preclude you doing so, would you state this publicly? (I kind of assume it's connected with an ongoing game. I don't know if you're allowed to confirm or deny this, fwiw.)

I don't see why announcing "secret town read" would change other people mind. I don't think you should have announced it at all, or as "his last post made me change opinion on him".

It influenced me. Counter-point? What's to lose from saying that?

Pointing out that a daykill is fake makes scum less tense and less likely to slip up. Town have no reason to point it out prematurely whatsoever.

is correct. It's very obviously anti-town. If you believe anti-town=scummy, then it's scummy. I imagine that's where a bunch of people are going; I'm not joining them.

I would be extremely happy to kill any one of the sizeable group not pulling their weight. In fact, I will vocally support any proposed lurker lynch until matters improve and that would probably be my wagon of choice right now.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

Hey, we randomly posted at the same time again. Cool

-crates.

[Elmocrates]

Yeah! Have I mentioned that my other head is extremely awesome?

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

I am awesome? Lies. Clearly you are wilely scum trying to buddy up to me.

...

Ohwait.

(<3 Elmo)

-crates

[Elmocrates]

Sorry have been busy in some of my other games - will catch up and post here - expect a post in less than 12 hours ..

Worked like a charm.

I humbly request more Ooba votes.

[Elmocrates]

Drippereth, I'd like a response to 368. Now.

The point of active lurking is to avoid scrutiny/pressure... I don't buy the idea that xofelf would attack Sens in that manner if she was trying to achieve that, a response of this type is predictable. I also don't think xofelf's post content is significantly worse than Sens', actually; Sens's posting is almost entirely random stage (iso 0-8) and attacking xofelf (9-22). Sens has more posts, but I'm not sure he's said a great deal more. I'm not terribly convinced by either at this point.

What I would really like is for xofelf to clearly state her position and reasoning instead of this "that's all I'll say for now" business. I would also really like Sens to explain why he's certain she's not simply mistaken, because I just don't see how you can claim that knowledge.

More importantly, I just checked every single game I've played on this site and not been replaced in; xofelf was in only 2 of those. I was Town in one of them, and killed N0 in the other (also as Town).

You had me read a few games where you weren't town to show me just how badly you fooled them. Also, did you count the games NOT on this site that you and i have played?

Don't have a response to this, I think. Why did you specify "on this site" if you'd played games together elsewhere? Why did you take that stance when you knew she'd read some of your scum games without being in them?

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

Sens' posts certainly weren't random stage, they were getting discussion going on peopole who weren't random voting.

Hmm. Forgive me if I think that's splitting hairs - although you probably put rather more stock in random voting than I do.

Number two and three there are more xofelflies by xofelfscum.

Huh. Okay. Let's see what she says. I'm bemused as to why she'd do that as scum. But I think it's helpful to establish that both of you are actually claiming the other is lying about something specific.

I would also really like Sens to explain why he's certain she's not simply mistaken, because I just don't see how you can claim that knowledge.

This, still; you claimed this before she said #2/#3. I don't see it.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

Whether she actually does is irrelevant. She might mistakenly believe she does. This happens a lot, especially with good scum players; I remember Yosarian2 complaining about it.

How did you know (at that point) she didn't genuinely believe what she was saying?

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

Because it's silly to think she'd legitimately think she had some sort of meta tell on me in particular (who she knows much better than most people), when there's absolutely no way she does.

That's not remotely true. Good players make mistakes with meta, and sometimes those mistakes are false positives. False positives are more likely when the meta tells are smaller and less frequent to begin with, so if you don't have any, it's more likely someone makes that mistakes. Unless you think xofelf's meta skills are perfect, there is some reasonable chance that she genuinely thought she had a meta tell on you. So how were you sure she was lying?

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

Other than the fact she's played a total of 1 game with me (where I survived N0)?

That tells you which games she's played with you. It doesn't tell you which games she's read; she might have read previous games where you were scum. To be certain she's lying, you have to be certain that she hasn't read any of your previous scum games. I don't see any way you can be certain about which games she's read. So I don't get it.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

Partly because she's not the type of person to read games she's not in

Could you elaborate on that? Do you think she hasn't read

any

games that she wasn't in, or just ones you were scum in? What "type" of person doesn't read games they're not in?

I mean, if someone said they had a (correct or incorrect) meta on me, my immediate assumption would be that'd read past games. I just don't see how "not being the type" can be so strong that you immediately think she's lying when she asserts a meta read on you. I mean you didn't even ask her where she got her meta

from

, no? It's like, boom, instantly she's full of it.

partly because she claimed I told her to read games of mine, which I did not.

I would also really like Sens to explain why he's certain she's not simply mistaken, because I just don't see how you can claim that knowledge.

This, still; you claimed this before she said #2/#3.

You claimed this before she said that, though, as I explicitly said. This doesn't answer my question.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

I really don't know how many times and ways I need to tell you "There's no fucking way she has a meta on me" before you'll realize I do in fact know what I'm talking about.

Zero, because I've never asked if she has a meta on you. But I think I'm done for the moment.

I really really really want xofelf to start posting. Either of the two being scum bemuses me; both of them being town would be even more bizarre. Buuut quickfire rounds should be equal opportunity.

Mod

:

Please prod xofelf if you haven't already done so. Thanks!

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

I'm essentially in line with Faraday here. If xofelf is scum, there's just no point in lying about something like that for minimal tactical gain. Absolute best case, Sens dies at some point, then you're a proven liar. Scum gotta hate 1:1 trades.

If Sens is scum then it's 110% better to just say, yeah, we played some games but your meta's wrong, a bunch of good players can't find any meta tells, etc. That's entirely playable. Again, best case, you OMGUS and xof flips town and you're speedlynched. This makes marginally more sense, but still pretty much a negligible amount.

This makes me

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

...

I don't like this. Don't like it at all.

Lets get some links up in har, Xof. I'm sick of all this talking around the games in question bullcrap.

I'm getting queezy feelings from literally every aspect of this thing.

@Sens: how would you have expected a town Xofelf to react to this kind of pressure?

Waiting for a reaction from the mighty Elmocrates.

?

Am I getting set up the bomb?

-crates

[Elmocrates]

Elmocrates, lying would definitely be bad play from xofelfscum, but I really can't imagine town making that comment.

Assuming Sens is scum & lying, why?

Also I would appreciate it if people would stop arguing over meta. I wasn't joking about the last few pages being garbage.

Which people? Which posts (numbers) do you think are really bad?

On GNE there was one game that we played

Where is GNE? Can you please link to the game, or if not then tell me where it was? Or at least give some indication that this game is really out there. Because if you're telling the truth, putting that game in front of us is absolutely your best move at the moment. I mean, it should be really really easy to prove that Sens is lying right now, and getting a guaranteed scum lynch should make you ecstatic, right?

Oh, also.. not lurking, just been busy. I have school which is almost over, i need to find a new place to live, i'm roughly 4 months pregnant... the list goes on... so lots going on, and i only pop on here once a day if i can.

I sympathise, I really do, but equally you signed up for a game with 10 day deadlines. We've got about four and a half days until deadline. If you're telling the truth, we really really need to hear more from you, soon.

In particular it would be useful if you quoted some of what Sens is saying and posted "HE IS LYING" or something totally unambiguous.

Less fuss over the 'lying' thing, more content.

Muh, loosely this, although it applies to both partially. The frustrating part is that even if we lynch one and they flip scum, we won't actually know much of anything about their buddies, since thus far we haven't got either of them to comment on anyone else. They're hardly unique in that, but considering the best bet seems to be lynch one of the two, it's more of a big deal. I'm more concerned about xofelf since she's currently the front runner.

A list of players & your reads on them, even vaguely, would be nice.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

You (one of you?) has been something of an elf apologist.

Based on what? I don't think that's true at all.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

I quizzed Sens on his reasoning for suspecting xofelf because it looked inconsistent to me. That's a long way from what you seem to be implying. Obviously I can't quiz them equally since xofelf hasn't laid out her reasoning like I've repeatedly asked her to.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

I found it weird that you'd make assumptions about xofelf while slamming Sens for making assumptions about xofelf.

I don't see where I've made any assumptions about xofelf or "slammed" Sens. I don't think I've said Sens is suspicious or even incorrect - I dunno where you are getting this from.

Or posting any of these at all and just letting xofelf dig her own grave.

I deliberately didn't post some stuff until she responded. I'm not sure why you think I shouldn't have posted the quoted.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

If you don't see it I can't help you. I posted examples.

Well, if you don't do something like point out what assumptions you're talking about, this isn't really going anywhere. Obviously I assume things like "Jack is human" if you're going to be literal about it, in which case I have no idea.

Slamming Sens in the post of posting about nothing else, to nobody else, many times. Inb4 "I don't see"

How is asking Sens questions = slamming Sens? Or do you have some bizarre definition of slamming?

I'm not sure why you think I shouldn't have posted the quoted.

Obviously.

So maybe explain why you think that if you want a useful response?

tl;dr This conversation is retarded though overzealous defense is interesting.

This conversation looks pretty retarded from where I'm sitting, yeah.

Elmo

[Elmocrates]

unvote, vote:Xofelf

I predict that most of the scum team is bussing Xofelf right now. It doesn't make sense for her to roll over and die so badly any other way.

Xof: Please give a pro-town reason for not replacing out if you are not going to bother to defend yourself.

I will be super pissed if she turns out to be town and self sabotaged so badly for no reason.

[Elmocrates]

-crates

[Elmocrates]

@PapaZito: Why are you characterizing us as Xofelf apologists and not Jack apologists? The way Elmo has been interacting with Sens is pretty much the same as the way I interacted with Iecerint when he hopped on the Jack wagon.

[Elmocrates]

Oh good, everyone is lurking with less than 12 hours to go until deadline.

I believe The Xofelf wagon is at 10 votes. The SPS wagon is at 8 votes. It is MUCH easier to muster 3 votes in a small amount of time than 5 votes.

I would like every active player not on the Xofelf wagon nor actively pushing the smaller SPS wagon to justify why.

I don't want another damn no-lynch for day 1. I hate it so much when that happens.

-crates