Lay of Leithian Mafia: Game Over!

[SensFan]

Vote: curiouskarmadog

For old time's sake.

[SensFan]

Vote: Elmocrates

For not random voting. First scumdar *ding* of the game.

[SensFan]

Vote: Elmocrates

For not random voting. First scumdar *ding* of the game.

27 posts. about twice as long as I expected it to go before someone voted me.

I believe the next step on this tired song and dance is that I say that random voting is useless. Then someone else says that doing nothing is worse. Yadayadayada we are on page six and I have a big wagon on me and am the default lynch of the day. Whoo.

Lets try and take this in a different direction. When you consider the fact that not random voting almost always without fail draws suspicion on the perpetrator, why in the world would scum not random vote?

In other news: Xvart is my first scum suspect.

vote:Xvart

Perhaps I can clarify.

I find it a significant anti-Town action to not random vote.
On Day 1, if all else is equal, I'll vote for anti-Town actions before I vote for scummy actions.
Hense the vote.

[SensFan]

Sens: I assume you believe anti-town ≠ scummy. Why anti-town before scummy? Would you lynch someone for being anti-town before scummy?

anti-town ≠ scummy, that's correct.
If we have a lynch or two to spare, I'll vote anti-town before scummy every time. IF someone is scummy, it means I can read them and will only devellop a better read as the game goes on. If someone is anti-town, it means that even if i can later manage to read them, they probably need to be lynched at some point anyways.

Bob: I get a shitload of tells from the way people random vote. Therefore, I find it anti-town if people opt not to random vote, since only Scum would have something to hide.

[SensFan]

Bob: I get a shitload of tells from the way people random vote. Therefore, I find it anti-town if people opt not to random vote, since only Scum would have something to hide.

That makes sense. I don't see as much in randomness as you apparently do (that's not to say that I don't look at all) so it's a matter of playstyle I suppose.

Town can actually just make an arbitrary vote, since they know nothing.
Scumbags need to make a conscious decision to vote buddy or non-buddy.

[SensFan]

I honestly can't think of any off the top of my head, and I'm home for a week with a terrible connection. So I can't link you to any right now. Not sure I would link you to them even if I could at this point, since it seems pretty self-defeating.

[SensFan]

Also, if there's a bizarre policy lynch anywhere, it's the one on SF. Namely, his playstyle's been perfectly acceptable in the games I've played with him.

Eh. I was going to call out people on it, but then I realized I only have 5 votes, with 13 to lynch. This is like 1-2 votes in a Mini.

[SensFan]

voted you was random?
Sens post 60: Now I just have to ask this: What is your definition of a random vote?

By a random vote, I basically mean pretty much anything but a lack of vote, or a literal random vote. I use the term 'random vote' to mean a vote placed at the beginning of the game for arbitrary reasons. I don't think anyone actually thinks most so-called 'random votes' are truly random.

[SensFan]

voted you was random?
Sens post 60: Now I just have to ask this: What is your definition of a random vote?

By a random vote, I basically mean pretty much anything but a lack of vote, or a literal random vote. I use the term 'random vote' to mean a vote placed at the beginning of the game for arbitrary reasons. I don't think anyone actually thinks most so-called 'random votes' are truly random.

I know too many players that do not do RVS no matter their allignment. For me it's a null tell.

I don't care what it is for you.
Even if I knew that someone played in 1000 games and always random voted as Scum and never as Town, I'd still vote them if I played in a game with them and they didn't random vote.

[SensFan]

xofelf, read my posts. I've explained already in this game why I vote for people who don't random vote, and also why I vote anti-town over scummy early in the game.

[SensFan]

But whoever it was that said i was focusing too much on play is right. I probably am. Except in the past games i've played with them, both Sens and KMD the way they play each game more often than not reveals their role. They react differently to the exact same thing depending on their alignment that game. That would be why i was asking about it so early on. Even the way they react to the questions posed to them does more than they think on reads. And that is all i'm going to say at this time about that.

I'm going to call bullshit on this. I've talked with very good players who have played (and read) multpile games of mine, and all of them have told me I don't have any meta tells. More importantly, I just checked every single game I've played on this site and not been replaced in; xofelf was in only 2 of those. I was Town in one of them, and killed N0 in the other (also as Town).

So yeah, no way I buy that someone of xofelf's experience has any meta tells on me.

Unvote, Vote: xofelf

[SensFan]

I've talked with very good players who have played (and read) multpile games of mine, and all of them have told me I don't have any meta tells.

Please list them.

Yaw and Cow for sure. I'm pretty sure I also talked to Khelv about it, and I think KMD told me he couldn't come up with any meta tells on me, either.

[SensFan]

Yaw and Cow for sure. I'm pretty sure I also talked to Khelv about it, and I think KMD told me he couldn't come up with any meta tells on me, either.

I'd think not being able to come up with any is a bit different from asserting you don't have any. Who explicitly said which?

I'm not sure how you're eliminating the possibility that xofelf's mistaken. If you don't have any meta tells, there are good odds people will be fooled by randomness.

I talked to Yaw and Cow a while back about if they could detect any meta-tells, since they're both players who are very good, and who I know fairly well. Khelv I don't remember the context. KMD, if memory serves, was jokingly complaining that he couldn't find any meta tells.

None of that is particularily relevant, though, since xofelf has never seen a completed game that involved me as Scum. And she's only seen me as Town once. I discounted the possibility that she's just remembering wrong since I know her very well on a personal level.

[SensFan]

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill there. Nothing wrong with some wagonning at this point.

[SensFan]

I'm going to give everyone fair warning right now. Any more mention of the fact xofelf and I dated, and I replace out. No ifs, ands, or buts.

[SensFan]

If you want me replaced, bring it up. It's not something I want to talk about, and it's not something I will talk about on a public forum. But don't think I'm bluffing.

[SensFan]

Because she doesn't have a meta on me, I guarantee it. Even great players that have seen me play numerous times don't have a meta on me. I'd go so far as to say I don't think she can read me very well at all. Therefore, she's just using it as an excuse to not post content and ask me (as well as indirectly insult me) questions that I answered clearly before.

[SensFan]

Because she doesn't have a meta on me, I guarantee it. Even great players that have seen me play numerous times don't have a meta on me. I'd go so far as to say I don't think she can read me very well at all. Therefore, she's just using it as an excuse to not post content and ask me (as well as indirectly insult me) questions that I answered clearly before.

I disagree. (insert personal experience here that Sens can by pass)
Coming from a person who plays mafia with the hubby every so often I can read him like a book. There is something that personal experience can convey that even typing can't hid. Just my personal opinion.

I won't comment further, but that sort of thing absolutely does not apply with xofelf and I. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. xofelf is no better at reading me than anyone else in this game.

[SensFan]

I want to lynch xofelf real bad right now. All this out of game drama is a mega distraction, and scum loves a distraction. Possibly to distract from a buddy being in danger of being lynched.

[SensFan]

I want to lynch xofelf real bad right now. All this out of game drama is a mega distraction, and scum loves a distraction. Possibly to distract from a buddy being in danger of being lynched.

Well hell. Less talking, more doing then.

unvote: MehPlusRawr
vote: xofelf

Both Drip and I have our votes on scumfelf already.

[SensFan]

Farside, they are both bringing their personal issues into the game.

I really don't understand how people can be all over one of them, but not the other.

Thats the point Star. I saw papa call out elf on this but said nothing about sens doing the same. Why are some people ignoring one over the other?

That's ridiculous. Xofelf has done absolutely nothing in this game except bring up the fact we 'dated' 6 months ago and claim some bullshit meta-tell on me, that I know she doesn't have.

I started the game off by playing normally, and have asked people specifically to stop talking about the out-of-game drama xofelf is bringing in.

Xofelf has used Appeal to Emotion (I've been waiting for this game for so long; If it weren't for my current relationship I'd say something to get myself banned; etc) and done basically nothing else except focus on me from her first post, and lie about her ability to read me when trying to cover up the blatant tunelling.

[SensFan]

Xofelf wagon is now ALSO a LURKER wagon. More people should hop on.

This. Active Lurking is a far greater scumtell than inactive lurking, and xofelf has done nothing but active lurk.

[SensFan]

DGB (Assuming it's you, if Elli, question still stands), what's your take on the fact so many people are either defending xofelf or unwilling to vote her?

[SensFan]

Re xofelf: Still waiting on her reaction to the pressure on her before I decide whether or not to lay my vote on. Note that she has not posted (in this thread, I don't know about anywhere else with searching down) since Wednesday.

She hasn't posted in this thread since Wednesday. She hasn't posted anything useful since this game started.

@Ice: She's not flaking/lurking here, she's ACTIVE lurking.

[SensFan]

*Sens' posts certainly weren't random stage, they were getting discussion going on peopole who weren't random voting.
*I have not played a single completed game on any other Mafia site
*I most certainly never asked her to read any of my games

Number two and three there are more xofelflies by xofelfscum.

[SensFan]

What do you mean by mistaken? She claimed to have a very reliable metatell, I'm saying there's no way in hell she does.

[SensFan]

Whether she actually does is irrelevant. She might mistakenly believe she does. This happens a lot, especially with good scum players; I remember Yosarian2 complaining about it.

How did you know (at that point) she didn't genuinely believe what she was saying?

Elmo

Because it's silly to think she'd legitimately think she had some sort of meta tell on me in particular (who she knows much better than most people), when there's absolutely no way she does.

And to make this official, xofelf, please link to a completed game I have played on a site other than this one.

[SensFan]

Other than the fact she's played a total of 1 game with me (where I survived N0)?

[SensFan]

Unless she can come in here and post links to the Scum games of mine she's read in her next post, I'm willing to bet she hasn't read any. Partly because she's not the type of person to read games she's not in; partly because she claimed I told her to read games of mine, which I did not.

Vote Count 20: Lynch

Starbuck - 1 - PaltryExcuse
xvart -

4

- Budja, Kmd4390, FeFiFoFum, Anon
Anon - 1 - Elscouta
xofelf -

4

- SensFan, Drippereth, Papa Zito, xvart
Jack - 2 - curiouskarmadog, Steam-Powered Shovel
Cyberbob - 2 - Cobalt, Iecerint
Papa Zito - 1 - ooba
Cobalt - 2 - Cyberbob, Starbuck
Steam-Powered Shovel - 3 - farside22, SocioPath, MehPlusRawr
FeFiFoFum - 1 - J-Scope
Ooba - 2 - Elmocrates, SpyreX
Elscouta - 1 - Jack

Not Voting (1): xofelf

With 25 players alive it'll take 13 to lynch and 13 to no-Lynch.

There are no players in the

Halls of Mandos

, so right now there are no

Revive

or

Destroy

counts.

[SensFan]

I myself have played many games with sens including several off site, remember that hilarious game we played in the youtube comment section of a video about chocolate chip ice cream Sens? But really we should be lynching Elscouta.

Ummmm, nope. I'm thinking you're confusing me with someone else.

[SensFan]

Other than the fact she's played a total of 1 game with me (where I survived N0)?

That tells you which games she's played with you. It doesn't tell you which games she's read; she might have read previous games where you were scum. To be certain she's lying, you have to be certain that she hasn't read any of your previous scum games. I don't see any way you can be certain about which games she's read. So I don't get it.

Elmo

She said they played a game(s) off site and that he talked about the games he played (not that they were in together).

So Sens are you saying you never discussed your games with elf?

I do not have a completed game off-site.
I've never discussed ongoing games in any sort of detail with pretty much anyone, least of all elf.

[SensFan]

Not in nearly any sort of detail to tell her to read it, or to describe it enough to give her a meta. We almost never talked about Mafia games, for various reasons.

[SensFan]

She's not the type of person who generally enjoys reading games of Mafia. She enjoys Mafia when she plays it, which is fairly rare as far as I know, and is not like me in the sense of actually liking to read games she's not playing in.

I really don't know how many times and ways I need to tell you "There's no fucking way she has a meta on me" before you'll realize I do in fact know what I'm talking about.

[SensFan]

Here you go, farside:

You had me read a few games where you weren't town to show me just how badly you fooled them.

This is a lie

Also, did you count the games NOT on this site that you and i have played?

Don't have any completed games off-site.

I never said you had a meta either. Because, you're right, you don't. BUT the way you respond to everything is different each game depending on alignment in every case i've seen. No i'm not using previous games.

This is three sentences in direct contradiction

I'm using what i know of you as person, and how you react outside of game to the games. Did you not notice which players i apply the same tactic to? The only ones i have ever known and seen outside of these forums.

Not only does she not know me very well as a person at all, but it's absolutely ridiculous that she thinks that how I am in real life has any bearing on me playing differently as Scum than Town.

[SensFan]

Beats me. I'm waiting for her answer on that one myself.

[SensFan]

Don't blame me for the fact that, when under pressure, xofelf decided to lie to cover her ass.

[SensFan]

So your super 'meta' on me, that doesn't rely on logic, strategy, or differences in my play, comes from the one game we were both alive in, unnamed games on MS, and an off-site game that was abandonned and I posted a grand total of 9 times in? You still haven't given a single example of my scumplay that you've seen.

This has panicked-scum bullshit written all over it.

[SensFan]

@Sens: how would you have expected a town Xofelf to react to this kind of pressure?

You're right, Sens, I was mistaken. I thought I had a meta on you, but now that you mention it, I don't remember where I would have gotten the scumread from, I must be confusing a game someone else played with you.

or else

Actually, Sens, you're wrong. I've seen you as Town [link]here[/link], [link]here[/link], and [link]here[/link]; and I've seen you as Scum [link]here[/link], [link]here[/link], and [link]here[/link].

Not

I'm not lying, I swear! Do you remember everything you've ever done in your life? No, I'm not going to bring up quotes, but I'm not lying! I do have a meta on you, it just doesn't involve logic, strategy, or differences in your play!

[SensFan]

On GNE there was one game that we played

Where is GNE? Can you please link to the game, or if not then tell me where it was? Or at least give some indication that this game is really out there. Because if you're telling the truth, putting that game in front of us is absolutely your best move at the moment. I mean, it should be really really easy to prove that Sens is lying right now, and getting a guaranteed scum lynch should make you ecstatic, right?

In order to speed things up, since she may not come online until later, I'll provide the link to that game: here

Notes:
*It was abandonned during Day3
*It was a grand total of 10 pages, including sign-ups and confirms
*I posted a grand total of 10 times, including an "/in" and a "/confirm"
*The roles were never revealed post-game to my knowledge

So yeah, I don't think the game is of any real use in terms of meta.

[SensFan]

Elf-gate: Hold a sec. Sens has said she was irrefutably lying and then delivered the game in question?

Have you been reading my posts, like at all? I said all along I had no completed game off-site. I even said in the post where I linked to the game why it's completely useless meta-wise.

[SensFan]

I think he's not counting the game in question because it was mod-abandoned (hence, not "completed"). Which, while not quite a lie, is kinda sketchy use of language IMO.

The game didn't go past Day 3, and the Mod never revealed the roles. How exactly was she supposed to get a meta read on me?

[SensFan]

She claimed she pm'd the mod and asked. I've been pretty much ignoring the argument and even I remember that.

That was in her most recent post, well after I claimed there were no completed off-site games. In my next post after that one of hers, I linked to the game.

[SensFan]

HOWEVER, when the lines were drawn at what sure appeared to be "this is unquestionable lying by xoelf" and then the evidence suggests this is not unquestionable by any means I kinda raise an eye.

How is "I have meta on Sens from offsite games" not unquestionable lying when the game never ended, I posted 8 times during the game, and the roles were never revealed?

[SensFan]

Mod: Is there any chance of just replacing both Sens and Xof? The personal bs that is going on in this game is unreal and detracting from play.

No fucking way. I haven't brought a single RL thing into this game, and have been telling people to avoid doing so. Please use your brain next time.

[SensFan]

Please give some posts where I'd insulted elf or brought personal issues into the game.

Vote Count 25: Lynch

xvart - 2 - Kmd4390, FeFiFoFum
xofelf -

10

- SensFan, Papa Zito, xvart, SpyreX, Cobalt, Cyberbob, ooba, Steam-Powered Shovel, Elscouta, Elmocrates
Cobalt - 1 - Starbuck
Steam-Powered Shovel - 8 - farside22, SocioPath, MehPlusRawr, Drippereth, Jack, Iecerint, Budja, Anon
FeFiFoFum - 1 - J-Scope
Elscouta - 1 - Nachomamma8

Not Voting (2): xofelf, curiouskarmadog

With 25 players alive it'll take 13 to lynch and 13 to no-Lynch.

There are no players in the

Halls of Mandos

, so right now there are no

Revive

or

Destroy

counts.

I am not doing replacements in this game unless the players who would replace out request it or I determine that other circumstances warrant it. If you'd like to discuss this or any in-thread situation with me further, I'd be happy to discuss it via PM.

[SensFan]

Um what this is obviously bullshit

There's literally no ROLE INFO on abillity that could lead you to believe we're scum. At all.

Looks to me like its a bit late for J-Scope to get out of this one.

Revive: Farside

[SensFan]

Catching up today. Just in case anyone hasn't seen it, mith just banned FFFF for being a Mufasa alt.