Mini 942: Gonzo Mafia - Game Over!

[Zachrulez]

/confirm

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Locke Lamora

Don't trust the robot. They always have the most to hide.

[Zachrulez]

What interview exactly?

[Zachrulez]

What interview exactly?

Ah yes, you showed!
Could you explain why you chose to vote THAT target with THAT reasoning, instead of any other?
Everyone else voted for personal reasons; yours seemed to have been chosen to be as arbitrary as possible and I know fully well that you've played with many of us before.

That's how I random vote, arbitrarily.

[Zachrulez]

And random voting someone for personal reasons isn't anti-town?

Or is this more because I random voted in a manner that's DIFFERENT than everyone else?

[Zachrulez]

Point taken.

However, I think we have differing ideas of what is acceptable in RVS, and you're grasping at straws if you think this is the best reason to vote someone at this point.

[Zachrulez]

Point taken.

However, I think we have differing ideas of what is acceptable in RVS, and you're grasping at straws if you think this is the best reason to vote someone at this point.

It page two, what better reason is there at this point?

Perhaps that case he made on Hohum, using his issue with my random vote as an excuse not to actually vote on it?

[Zachrulez]

@Zachrulez: So who's scum?~~

At this point, Hohum's Reckoner vote looks pretty weak, and contrary to what I would expect from his play.

No one else has really done anything that seems worth noting.

Your play is aggravating, but pro-town.

I'm also pretty happy with my Locke vote at this point given the sum of his activity at this point. I'd like to see him get more involved in the game.

[Zachrulez]

Zach: you think my activity in the first 24 hours of this game has been scummy/unacceptable? What exactly do you expect from hohum?

Your activity over the sum of the first 24 hours consisted of a random vote, and a question to another player, but little else.

Given the differences between your activity level in tweed mafia and Sigma's mini normal game. It is something I find worth watching. (Plus a better place for my vote isn't really screaming out at me.)

Hohum comes across to me as an aggressive player. His approach to Reckoner has felt contrary to that. (Though his follow up posts are more characteristic, which is why my vote hasn't moved.)

[Zachrulez]

I'd say it's quite common for me to start a game like that regardless of alignment.

So your issue with hohum's vote was that it wasn't aggressive enough for town-hohum?

That's pretty much it, yeah.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway...

Unvote: Vote: Sotty7

One random vote, one question toward me, (That feels like it's buddying up to Vi.) and no scum hunting. Her play feels off to me.

[Zachrulez]

Now that you mention it, Flinter hasn't really done anything and seems to be trying to fly under the radar.

[Zachrulez]

In fact, the only thing Flinter has really done is show concern for Vi's suspicions of Hohum while ignoring everything else.

Unvote: Vote: Flinter

[Zachrulez]

Lot of vote-hopping early on here, Zach. Is this normal for you?

Well I've changed votes twice... if that's your definition of lots.

My vote on Sotty was primarily for a reaction. Her approach here is a little different from Sigma's game. I'm satisfied with her latest post however. Flinter looks pretty scummy to me at this point.

I don't see pursuing you further at this point as productive. Ditto for Sotty.

[Zachrulez]

But yeah, I do have a habit of hopping around with my vote.

[Zachrulez]

After playing this game with me, you don't seriously expect me to let you get away with saying that do you?

[Zachrulez]

You hopped around a bit, but not thrice within 1-2 pages this early on.

That's

not

what you said. You said you have never seen me hop around with my vote this much. A blatant lie.

The truth of it is that I hop around a lot as town. When I am scum... I actually have the opposite approach... I rarely ever change my vote at all.

[Zachrulez]

Also I replaced into that game, so yeah.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13353

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13008

Those are the two most recent.

The only vote change I can recall from the recent newbie game was forced by a cop claim.

[Zachrulez]

Hmm.

But you're obviously aware of your own scum meta, which means you could be playing against it.

Yeah, that's so weak. I was aware of it in those games too.

None of this changes the fact that you lied about my play though.

[Zachrulez]

Which compels me to summarize your continued pressure of me.

You: "I've never seen you vote hop like this before."

me: Oh yeah? What about this game? (Which you played with me.)

"Well you've never vote hopped this quickly this early in the game." (Backtracking, and arguing meta you haven't personally witnessed.)

I then compare my scum meta to my town meta, and you demand links, which I provide.

Then... "Oh, well your aware of your meta, so you can just be playing against it."

Never mind the fact that your entire reasoning for voting me was based on meta that was an OUTRIGHT lie, and that you're now trying to beat the point home by using my awareness of my meta as some kind of proof that the behavior is still scummy.

......... *blink*

[Zachrulez]

Reckoner, what are your thoughts on Vi, Sotty, Hohum, Flinter, (Ect.)?

[Zachrulez]

Zach, I know reck a bit already, but would you please answer that question? I don't think I have played with you before.

I want to say I'd try to ignore it, but it really would depend on the situation.

[Zachrulez]

And random voting someone for personal reasons isn't anti-town?

Or is this more because I random voted in a manner that's DIFFERENT than everyone else?

I dislike how he makes sure that people know he is different. Different is usually viewed as towny, and that makes this post most a roundabout way of saying: "I'm towny, really!"

FoS zach

Weaksauce.

Zach his posts on page three are seriously weak: Reck had a point here. Zach is making 2 active lurking cases already, and saying Hohum isn't aggressive enough. Sorry, 3 active lurking cases: on me too. (locke and sotty were the others). Votehopping isn't the problem, it is that the votes are not very different, and weak.

Active lurking is scummy. Besides, the reason I voted you was because you weren't scumhunting. The efforts you've been putting forth are just really weak at this point. I don't really feel like they are genuine and are more forced suspicions in response to the fact that people find your lack of scum hunting suspicious.

[Zachrulez]

Sotty: logic is better for arguing, and bringing your point across, I think.

Zach his posts on

page three

are seriously weak: Reck had a point here. Zach is making 2 active lurking cases already, and saying Hohum isn't aggressive enough. Sorry, 3 active lurking cases: on me too. (locke and sotty were the others). Votehopping isn't the problem,

it is that the votes are not very different, and weak.

Active lurking is scummy. Besides, the reason I voted you was because you weren't scumhunting.

The efforts you've been putting forth are just really weak at this point.

I don't really feel like they are genuine

and are more forced suspicions in response to the fact that people find your lack of scum hunting suspicious.

I have bolded the two key words: page three. Oh, and they are. I already said that. But seemingly, they did make sense, as you are not even trying to argue, you are only trying to discredit me.

how did we call that: ad hominem?

Nothing you quoted there by Zach amounts to an ad hominem attack if that is what you are suggesting.

I've bolded my first suspicion of zach, and I italicized his response.

This is a full ad hom. In stead of answering my argument, zach says I'm not honestly suspecting him, and I shouldn't be active lurking.

Hohum becomes more towny for me.


Vi: I'm still voting for my scum, who hasn't posted a lot lately.

Further, other suspects like locke have posted, but I didn't find this interesting.

I think going for Reck is wrong. I was going to look at what was said about Percy, because I didn't fully understand it always, but I'm afraid I forgot to do that.


Oh, and I think I'm moderately experienced. But I notice the way you play here is a little different.



Although I like that DDD is finally off me, his vote makes me doubt him a bit. He bandwagons.

Hi.

I think you need to read that before you claim I'm using ad_hominem argument, because upon reading it you'll realize that I actually am not.

Few other thoughts in response to your post.

Why is the Reckoner wagon wrong? This just feels like such a categorical thing to say. I'm don't find a Reckoner wagon appealing, but I can understand why people might want to vote him.

Also just remembered that your vote was still on Kyle. I can't remember a good reason for it being there, but it feels like the safest lurker vote ever. (He is lurking, but to me it his play looks exactly the same as his play in Kittymo's mini 922, where I replaced him as a town mason.)

So yeah... why are you voting for him again?

[Zachrulez]

Hi.

Totally saw that vote coming after I called out the Kyle vote.

[Zachrulez]

Zach seems to only appear in the thread to defend himself or attack flinter. Not liking that.

Oh RLY? Do elaborate further.

[Zachrulez]

I'm saying you're tunneling and coasting. I don't think it is like you to ignore the rest of the player list this much even when you do tunnel.

So fixing that would be great.

It's not so much ignoring the rest of the player list as much as it is not being nearly as interested in it as I am Flinter.

As far as the Percy situation, I'm not particularly interested in any of the pressure that's been put on him because I personally don't find it particularly suspicious. Bandwagoning based on differing sides of whether or not Vi has a post restriction or not. (I'm not even sure WHERE that argument came from because the possibility hasn't really crossed my mind TBH based on Vi's posts.)

Reckoner seems to be begging to be lynched which doesn't particularly please me. (Unless of course he's nice enough to flip scum too.) I'd really like to see him start giving a damn, but I've noticed that he seems a lot more comfortable/interested in games when he's scum, so I don't really like the idea of lynching him for that reason.

DDD's activity is generally low and starting to remind me of mafia 98, not liking that at all.

Those are a few thoughts outside of Flinter that I have, but are generally much less interesting to me than Flinter's pattern of ridiculously scummy behavior so far.

Also, I really hate her reaction to Reck basically asking to be lynched. (The Reckoner wagon is wrong yet appealing? Oh RLY?)

If there weren't already great reasons to lynch Flinter, the above is another great one.

[Zachrulez]

Flinter, you're scum because by your own admission you don't think he's scummy, yet you've kept the option to bandwagon him open by saying his bandwagon is appealing.

Please die quickly scum.

[Zachrulez]

I'm pretty much convinced beyond any doubt that Flinter's slot is scum now given the way she just replaced out.

[Zachrulez]

Hey Sotty, what do you think of Reckoner?

Also, about Flinter replacing out?

[Zachrulez]

My opinions on reck are in the thread. He was scummy for his early attack on you and I think he needs to either get his head into the game or be replaced.

I agree with your initial assessment with flinter replacing out like she did and it looking bad. Will check to see if replaced out of all her games or just this one though.

On a 2nd read of your iso, I notice that you did comment on Reck in 214. I asked mainly because an opinion on Reckoner from you wasn't jumping out at me.

I wish search were still up because I'm very interested in what other games flinter is in and her status in those games.

[Zachrulez]

I'm only on page 10 of my read, but so far I'm not liking Sotty or Zach.

What a surprise.

[Zachrulez]

Why aren't you surprised?

Mainly because linking us together is pretty much what Flinter did, and you replace in and cast suspicion on me and Sotty before really delving into the game.

In fact, why was there such a pressing need to react to me?

[Zachrulez]

My opinions on reck are in the thread. He was scummy for his early attack on you and I think he needs to either get his head into the game or be replaced.

I agree with your initial assessment with flinter replacing out like she did and it looking bad. Will check to see if replaced out of all her games or just this one though.

On a 2nd read of your iso, I notice that you did comment on Reck in 214. I asked mainly because an opinion on Reckoner from you wasn't jumping out at me.

I wish search were still up because I'm very interested in what other games flinter is in and her status in those games.

Use google. She seems to be in at least one other game atm.

Still in it or replaced out?

[Zachrulez]

Nevermind, I found the game.

[Zachrulez]

zach got called out for vote hopping early, and said that as scum he sticks to his vote. Which is EXACTLY what he's done for the rest of the day.

Funny how you don't commit to calling me scum and actually call me neutral.

Even more interesting how Sotty ended up town after you said you didn't like both of us earlier.

Also looks like you're fine with your vote right where it is too. It's great how things like that work out.

[Zachrulez]

FTR, That other game Flinter is in she has not yet replaced out in, and actually posted there after replacing out here.

Which is just further fueling my suspicion that she just couldn't take the heat.

[Zachrulez]

FTR, That other game Flinter is in she has not yet replaced out in, and actually posted there after replacing out here.

Which is just further fueling my suspicion that she just couldn't take the heat.

She posted that she had issues with school. You're reaching.

I also see a Vi wall I need to read.

Yeah, but she posted to stay in that game here. In this game, she never bothered to give a reason why she replaced out. She was into the game defending herself one minute, and then the next, she just wanted out... and she was MORE into this game than she seems to be in the other one, so the progression from that to replacing out just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Zachrulez]

Of course abuse of meta and all that, he

could

be playing me, but I don't think so.

Which is a funny thing for you to say, because you generally tend to post something like this when you are scum to keep the door for Zachscum open just a crack. When you're town, you generally don't cast this kind of doubt on your reads of me.

Also, I can count on a hand with exactly 0 fingers the number of times I have actually been able to successfully play you as scum.

On the other side of the coin, the number of times you have played me as scum... well, the number's a lot higher than 0.

[Zachrulez]

I can think of one game you fooled me but that was like two years ago (?) and a game were I was a jester and busy doing my own thing. But yeah I tend to bust you pretty hard, you're right about that.

Games where you are a jester don't count as me fooling you because you don't give a crap who is scum in those kind of games.

[Zachrulez]

- flinter did mention she was busy and posting to avoid a prod in her only other game (Tit for Tat), so the V/LA looks real. So even though she didn't replace out of that game, it seems possible that she wanted to try and handle 1 game. I don't see it as a tell either way.

When you have 2 games, and you need to get rid of one, which one do you pick?

In this game she seemed pretty caught up, while she seemed behind in the other (Posting to avoid a prod is indicative of that.)

Now with no indication that she was behind in this game or too busy to continue posting on top of the fact that she replaced out without actually stating a reason. (If she was town and gave a damn you think she would have mentioned it.) WHY would you replace out of the game you see more into and NOT behind in and stay in the game where you're behind and need to catch up?

It makes absolutely zero sense to me.

[Zachrulez]

I find recks action antitown, but not scummy. So I have a neutral read on him. And that is the problem with most that I could comment on.

If I was really reaching for a conclusion, I would call zachs town:

votehopping is almost never scummy

, but it is good to show what you are thinking. If he didn't do this in previous games, this towntell gets stronger: he is rather using his vote for information discussion etc, then trying to find a good excuse for a vote whenever he votes (that would generally mean that he would vote less)

But, the use of votes is mostly a playstyle thing, so it isn't really a great tell. Random votes don't tell me a thing, tbh. VI's play is ok, but I think that is expected from him. Reck has already been named, and Hohum is quite unreadable for me at the moment.

So I'm trying to investigate, but there is nothing scummy that stands out for me yet. It would also help if I got to know some of the players better.

if you are scum, and someone makes a point against you that is quite ridiculous, what do you do:

A calmly explain why it is ridiculous.
B call that person a moron, etc.
C something else (please explain what you would do)

Please note the bolded statement. "Votehopping is almost never scummy."

Until ISO 23 of course when it suddenly is.

Reck is making mistakes, not being scummy. The wagon might be appealing, but is quite a random one.

I know very well what ad hominem means. As far as I know, Zach didn't even read my accusations, he just went on how bad I am as a player.

Now, he may think that fun, and all, but that doesn't mean that his votes on page 3 were well reasoned, or that there was any need for a votechange between them (the cases were very similar) Zach never replyed to this.

unvote vote zach

. You may have a friend in Sotty, but that doesn't mean you are right. Please tell me why you needed to votehop there.

Of course I did explain my reasoning for switching between Locke and Sotty later, but Flinter tries to pretend that I didn't. (See my iso 13.)

This of course is because she's under pressure and needs to discredit the attacks that have since come on her from my direction by making the motive behind them look scummy. (Completely contradicting her previously stated position that my votehopping was pro-town.)

How can you come to two different conclusions analyzing the same set of play and the information that comes from it? Necessity of course.

[Zachrulez]

Ekim, why did you avoided 331 in your comments regarding flinter/jack?

[Zachrulez]

Why did you avoid 331*

[Zachrulez]

It's less than two days until deadline.

unvote; Vote: DDD

. Anyone?

I'd be willing to switch to DDD before deadline. His play is reminding me too much of mafia 98. (Lurky and not proactive enough for my liking.)

I'd still much prefer Jack though as I think it's a much stronger lynch.

[Zachrulez]

None of the reasoning from ISO 15 was referenced when she cast her vote for me. She inquires about the vote hopping, so I can only assume that's the bulk of the reason for the vote.

Also think the point about me pursuing active lurkers being weak would carry a lot more weight if I were doing it on page 15 or so rather than page 3.

What I saw (and what I still see) in ISO 23 is Flinter voting me for vote hopping after saying it wasn't scummy.

[Zachrulez]

Hammering isn't scummy, but you can still legitimately vote someone for hammering.

True... but.

I find recks action antitown, but not scummy. So I have a neutral read on him. And that is the problem with most that I could comment on.

If I was really reaching for a conclusion, I would call zachs town:

votehopping is almost never scummy, but it is good to show what you are thinking. If he didn't do this in previous games, this towntell gets stronger: he is rather using his vote for information discussion etc, then trying to find a good excuse for a vote whenever he votes (that would generally mean that he would vote less)

But, the use of votes is mostly a playstyle thing, so it isn't really a great tell. Random votes don't tell me a thing, tbh. VI's play is ok, but I think that is expected from him. Reck has already been named, and Hohum is quite unreadable for me at the moment.

So I'm trying to investigate, but there is nothing scummy that stands out for me yet. It would also help if I got to know some of the players better.

if you are scum, and someone makes a point against you that is quite ridiculous, what do you do:

A calmly explain why it is ridiculous.
B call that person a moron, etc.
C something else (please explain what you would do)

Note bolded mine.

Reck is making mistakes, not being scummy. The wagon might be appealing, but is quite a random one.

I know very well what ad hominem means. As far as I know, Zach didn't even read my accusations, he just went on how bad I am as a player.

Now, he may think that fun, and all, but that doesn't mean that his votes on page 3 were well reasoned, or that there was any need for a votechange between them (the cases were very similar)

Zach never replyed to this.

unvote vote zach

. You may have a friend in Sotty, but that doesn't mean you are right.

Please tell me why you needed to votehop there

.

Again note bolded mine. I have argued this to death. But basically she's making my vote hopping into an issue after previously drawing the conclusion that she saw it as pro town. I have an issue with this.

She also claims I never responded to the point that my votes weren't well reasoned. I have responded to death with the fact that I explained my votes in a previous post, even going so far as to reference the post itself. Now... if you don't LIKE that explanation, that's fine, but that's really all it is, there isn't really anything I can do or say beyond that to explain what I did because that's the explanation and the rationalization that was going on in my mind at the time.

Also in ISO 23 she's trying to discredit my attacks by calling them ad-hom, accusing me of not reading her posts and simply referring to her as a bad player. This is another issue I have with her. She's trying to characterize my suspicions and the points in my case as personal attacks in order to discredit them. Scum do this.

[Zachrulez]

zach - she said votehopping

per se

isn't scummy, later went back and read that page again and decided she didn't like your

reasons

for votehopping. I'm not convinced that's contradictory.

I'm not buying it. I'm not even buying that she originally read my reasoning for either vote or my explanation for the votes afterwards. This was demonstrated when she asked me why I felt the need to vote hop

after I already explained it.

[Zachrulez]

And everything she said in ISO 15 seems referenced in ISO 23.

Zach his posts on page three are seriously weak: Reck had a point here.

Zach is making 2 active lurking cases already, and saying Hohum isn't aggressive enough. Sorry, 3 active lurking cases: on me too. (locke and sotty were the others). Votehopping isn't the problem, it is that the votes are not very different,

and weak

.

Now, he may think that fun, and all, but that doesn't mean that his votes on page 3 were well reasoned

,

or that there was any need for a votechange between them (the cases were very similar)

Zach never replyed to this.

unvote vote zach. You may have a friend in Sotty, but that doesn't mean you are right.

Please tell me why you needed to votehop there.

ok, so she repeats herself in an effort to make it look like she's actually bringing new content to the table.

Look, I see where you're coming from. I just don't buy it. If she has an issue with the play I don't think it takes 7 posts to decide to vote me for it, (in response to having her kyle vote called out no less.) and I don't think dwelling on actions I did on page 3 in the low information stage of the game are a genuine attempt at trying to figure out my alignment.

[Zachrulez]

Zach: you suggested that Sotty is playing to her scum meta by casting doubt on her suspicions of you, then you didn't follow it up at all. Does this mean you don't really think Sotty is scummy for doing so?

It means... I'm really not sure.

Even if she's nearly 100% convinced I'm town, she is usually interested in my motives and my thought process of who I'm suspecting and why. In this game for whatever reason she doesn't seem that interested.

Nagging thing that's bothering me. Another one of those nagging things is her tendency to follow my preferred links as though I'm all knowing. (Which in the past more so than now has worked VERY effectively for her when we've played together.) Since reading and studying up on our past games, it's a tendency I've noticed from her when she's scum.

[Zachrulez]

That would be a good point if I hadn't questioned you or called you out in this game when I have. We agree on flinter/Jack but I think that's about it. I don't know your opinion on hohum for example, or Percy.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 15#2175115
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83#2175383
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 37#2186937
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 01#2193901

You're just paranoid that I am always scum

Keep in mind that Locke asked and that post was in response to his inquiry.

[Zachrulez]

I can't say I have much of an opinion on Percy. I feel pretty neutral about everything he's said and done.

Hohum's been way too quiet lately and would be my 3rd lynch preference at this point.

[Zachrulez]

In the hohum case, you said you found it scummy when he cared about Reckoner replacing out but not flinter. I assume you think this is scummy because you don't think hohum treated Reckoner and flinter in the same way?

Yeah, I notice now that Hohum didn't react to that at all, while pushing it as a major point about Reck.

Also, I'm not getting a very proactive feel from Hohum. (He's also been attacking lurkers while pushing that territory himself and what he has posted seems to be pretty quiet/designed to not really be noticed.)

Does that answer your question Percy?

[Zachrulez]

And we can pretty much expect no more posts from either him or Reckoner for the rest of the day.

I find that rather infuriating. (Also that half the game seems to be lurking with 24 hours to the dl)

[Zachrulez]

At the moment, I'm actually feeling a strong urge to vote for Locke and push a bandwagon on him. He indicated he was waiting on a response from me about Sotty before he said more about us, but since said response, there's been NOTHING from him on the matter.

[Zachrulez]

I just isoed kyle, the only scummy thing I noticed is

You make some decent points on me,

Which is kind of a weird thing to say. I would like to see kyle's response to Vi's 284 though.

I would like to see your response to Vi's 284 and 287.

didn't want to prejudice his responses, br0. Of course now you're going to need to meta his replacement anyway.

Unvote
Vote: kyle

for what looks like tactical replacement.

fos:ortolan

kyle replaced out of another game with the same message...don't like your reaction.

Nice...

[Zachrulez]

You guys should read post 423 again.

[Zachrulez]

The way I read it sounded like he extended the deadline in that post.

Did I read it wrong?

[Zachrulez]

Ok I did read it wrong.

Also, I will point out that Locke is lurking, inexcusably so, and unlike most of our other players who are less active than we'd like, he doesn't have a real excuse.

[Zachrulez]

Anything that would explain why you went all that time you did without posting any follow up in the face of the deadline. (In fact you just came off a V/LA that ended on Monday)

[Zachrulez]

How do you feel about Locke now Sotty?

[Zachrulez]

You could give a reason as to why you never followed up on your inquiry to me regarding Sotty's meta.

[Zachrulez]

I was dealing with the more pressing matter of putting my vote somewhere before the deadline. The interaction between you and Sotty was something that caught my attention but was not particularly relevant to where I put my vote today.

In any event, it seems we have more time. Reading your response, my question to you is why is it just a nagging concern rather than something more worrying? If this departs from how town-Sotty treats you, what about her play makes you hesitate to think she's scum?

Mainly because she uses different tactics against me as scum which are heavily dependent on the situation.

Also the patterns I've noticed come from games where I've started to develop an awareness of said pattern. As I become aware of the patterns, she becomes aware of my awareness to the patterns (Thus we go in circles with the question of how she might change her approach to me as hypo scum.)

It's not something I'm confident enough to say is definitively scummy.

[Zachrulez]

I don't have an issue with an ortolan lynch, given the bulk of his posting, the horrible attacks on Vi, and the fact that the suspicion surfaced right after Vi started suspecting him.

I still prefer a Jack lynch though... maybe even a Locke lynch.

[Zachrulez]

DDD lynch = ortolan/Cobalt lynch > Jack lynch

That's how I feel, but I'd lynch any of them.

Vote: DDD

.

Deadline's in two days and Ortolan looks more viable at this point than DDD... so why DDD over Ortolan?

[Zachrulez]

Willing to hammer.

If nothing else changes between now and tomorrow, I will go ahead and throw it down.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I'm happy with this lynch. Cobalt hasn't come on to do ANYTHING since replacing in. (Unvoting, claiming, updating on progress, ect.)

Unvote: Vote: Cobalt

[Zachrulez]

kyle got mislynched on day one in roccisi winter as town doc (along with a whole bunch of other policy lynches), mainly for lurking and being noncommittal if memory serves. I don't see the difference to how he is playing here. flinter's case is basically "kyle usually plays like a sheep and because he's not doing so here he is likely to be scum". Sure it's uncharitable but I also can't shake the feeling flinter is just coming up with a convoluted excuse to vote someone who she thinks is an easy target (and conveniently avoid more populous/viable bandwagons).

Unvote
Vote: flinter

This post just seems like it's out in left field with all the other reasons to have voted for Jack's player slot at the time.

With the flip now it's starting to look like a chainsaw defense to me so...

Vote: Jahudo

[Zachrulez]

Unvote:

I think I may have initially given Jack a bit too much town cred for that scum lynch, on 2nd look, his reasoning doesn't look great.

To VP Baltar, a ten minute night does not give people the amount of time they need to kill Reckoner. Please remedy this in the future, plz k thx.

Yes, sir. *salutes* ~ The mod

~~~

Vote: Sotty

Ortolan quotes her once in a response and that's it. Whenever he's mentioned by Sotty early it was almost invariably within the context of hohum and Percy where she's extremely indecisive in regards to him, but late in the day he pops up on her willing to wagon list and it's not really clear why until her vote post. I also have issue with her tone which just seems very off to me.

Your case on things Sotty has actually done is pretty vague here. As far as the whole Ortoscum ignored her point, that point can be made pretty equally for people like Jack, yourself, and me. I don't recall him going to much effort to respond to or talk about any of us offhand either.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP: Butchered quotes.

Unvote:

I think I may have initially given Jack a bit too much town cred for that scum lynch, on 2nd look, his reasoning doesn't look great.

To VP Baltar, a ten minute night does not give people the amount of time they need to kill Reckoner. Please remedy this in the future, plz k thx.

Yes, sir. *salutes* ~ The mod

~~~

Vote: Sotty

Ortolan quotes her once in a response and that's it. Whenever he's mentioned by Sotty early it was almost invariably within the context of hohum and Percy where she's extremely indecisive in regards to him, but late in the day he pops up on her willing to wagon list and it's not really clear why until her vote post. I also have issue with her tone which just seems very off to me.

Your case on things Sotty has actually done is pretty vague here. As far as the whole Ortoscum ignored her point, that point can be made pretty equally for people like Jack, yourself, and me. I don't recall him going to much effort to respond to or talk about any of us offhand either.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP yet again: Christ...

Unvote:

I think I may have initially given Jack a bit too much town cred for that scum lynch, on 2nd look, his reasoning doesn't look great.

To VP Baltar, a ten minute night does not give people the amount of time they need to kill Reckoner. Please remedy this in the future, plz k thx.

Yes, sir. *salutes* ~ The mod

Vote: Sotty

Ortolan quotes her once in a response and that's it. Whenever he's mentioned by Sotty early it was almost invariably within the context of hohum and Percy where she's extremely indecisive in regards to him, but late in the day he pops up on her willing to wagon list and it's not really clear why until her vote post. I also have issue with her tone which just seems very off to me.

Your case on things Sotty has actually done is pretty vague here. As far as the whole Ortoscum ignored her point, that point can be made pretty equally for people like Jack, yourself, and me. I don't recall him going to much effort to respond to or talk about any of us offhand either.

[Zachrulez]

On an unrelated note, I hate quote trees... a lot.

[Zachrulez]

He did basically admit that the Ortolan lynch might have happened without him,(Which is about how I feel about it.) while pointing out that his vote and push were critical to getting the lynch on Ortolan, which is pretty accurate.

I'm not moved by the cases of who Ortolan ignored, mainly because he seemed pretty disinterested with half of the players in the game at any given time, I tend to find this to be a pretty shoddy method of finding more scum after you've lynched one scum.

What I do find interesting is people who actively defend the now proven scum from pressure, as a scumtell that tends to actually be a lot stronger of a tell.

Ekim pointed out several instances of Locke pushing back against a Ortolan lynch actively on day 1, and those points were also touched on by Sotty, and personally I think that's a better direction to pursue at this point.

Vote: Locke Lamora

[Zachrulez]

I'm patiently waiting for Amished to actually explain his reads.

[Zachrulez]

Amished, why exactly is Zach not worth it? Is he still one of your top picks?

Probably has a lot to do with the fact that a Percy lynch is a lot more viable a Zach lynch.

I'm happy with my Amished vote mainly for Locke's actions. I can't say anything Amished has said has really convinced me that I'm looking in the wrong place.

[Zachrulez]

Zachrulez - I'm not entirely sure why he did the following:
*Teamed up with Sotty (household jokes aside) by defending her and joining her votes

You can argue that I joined her Locke vote I guess. (Though in truth, I believe ekim raised the points first.)

On day one though, I believe she actually joined me on the Flinter wagon.

As for defending Sotty, I would need specific examples to try to be able to address your inquiry.

*Unvoted Jahudo based on what Jack did

Tbh, when I saw that quote I pointed out in the vote post my immediate reaction chainsaw defense, and I dropped Jack down on my scumlist thinking him more likely to be town based on that. After thinking it over, I still don't like Flinter/Jack's play, and Locke Lamora was also pinging my scumdar with those active defenses of Ortolan.

*Not commented on hohum for quite the long while when he voted Cobalt for essentially what he's doing now

Probably has a lot to do with the fact that he actually hasn't said anything in a while. I will say that I don't like the lurking, and I'm liking him less on re-read.

Also, Cobalt's lurking was one of the reasons I hammered. It also didn't go unnoticed that Ortolan horribly attacked you with distortions of what I generally know about your meta in an effort to paint you in a scummy light. (That also heavily influenced my willingness to lynch him.)

Also in an unrelated note, why was I the only player to get stars in your run down of the players in the game? Just curious.

[Zachrulez]

Sorry, I still like ortolan+Locke Lamora.

If (note "if") Zach and Jahudo acquiesce to an ortolynch - which shouldn't be a decision that would take long to make on their parts - that puts him up to 6; quite a bit more considerable a possibility. Since I have a stronger scumread on ortolan, I would be much more pleased with a lynch thattaway and would gladly take whatever consequences may come of it.

(Full disclosure: I'm well aware that if hohum is lynched and flips scum I'm going to look extremely bad. I don't care.)

Vi: you suggested that ortolan going after the VIs was scummy; on the same grounds, what do you make of ekiM's early post where he listed kyle, Reck and myself in his scummy category?

I actually said that ortolan was going after easy wagons, not VIs. Offhand I don't have a problem with that particular post; however, I suspect that if ekiM is scum, kyle is not (based on that post). ekiM was joining Jack's vote for kyle; aside from orto jumping late on the Jack/flinter wagons (twice) they haven't voted for each other so far. ekiM/Jack/orto sounds fairly plausible ta me; the only Town read it contradicts is the one I had on flinter (not Jack)

and I don't have any particular scum reads outside that beyond Locke Lamora (which isn't strong enough to hold on to at this point)

and kyle (who as I said I want to reserve judgment on).

So yeah. I don't normally do associative deduction but this actually works out really nicely.

Amished - I really don't have a reason to suspect Amished, and considering that he kept on digging through the game while there was a threat to lynch him I'd say he's working with Town motivation.

In addition, I don't think that L. Lamora was that scummy, despite Sotty's protests to the contrary and him winding up on the wrong side of the ortolan wagon.

On day 1 you seemed to not have much of a problem with seeing Locke Lamora and Ortolan as scum together. What's stopped you from following up on Ortolan's flip and pushing Locke?

[Zachrulez]

Also you give Amished town cred for "digging through the game under pressure." However:

How about I'm still not finished catching up (have 3-4 pages left) and I'm fucking getting there. I'll explain everything when I'm caught up.

Also, I love how I'm being attacked by Percy basically blindly from what I skimmed of his attack on me. Instead of waiting and seeing if I had any points to refute he just goes right into attack mode instead of knowing that he's innocent.

I'll finish up tonight (it's still been under 24 hours with sleep and work that I've been in this game and I'm getting attacked for not being 100% into it, Jesus Christ you people!) so just have some damn patience.

Also, just to point out how stupid the "rhetoric" argument is by Percy (pretty much all I caught from him while tired, I replace into pretty much every game like that. Scum and Town; and then explain my reads while I'm done. I've gotten lynched for it once, Sotty (I believe) can attest to that as a recent example.

Here Amished pretty much says that it's a null tell for him. Further, his activity has kinda sputtered out ever since he made the post where he explained the reads. (Though to be fair everyone's activity pretty much has.)

Are you seeing the slot as less scummy because of Amished? I can admit to not really seeing anything from Amished that is scummy, but there isn't anything there that really convinces me that he's town either, so the net result of my read still rests largely on Locke Lamora's scummy play.

[Zachrulez]

Do you usually use so much profanity in your posts Amished?

[Zachrulez]

@Zach: Not normally, but this is a fun game and when I'm relaxed and screwing around with friends I have a foul mouth. As I've played with the majority of people here, I feel relaxed around you all. Except scum, you can die in a fire (gogo VP Baltar reference ) Is there a point to your question or are you going to do something productive?

I was pretty surprised by it given that it didn't make an appearance in any previous game we've played together.

[Zachrulez]

@Zachrulez:

*The list format - The significance is that I didn't put a lot of effort into formatting that post after stream-of-consciousnessville.

*Defending Sotty7 - Only one person put a case out on Sotty - that person being someone most people don't listen to anyway (don't tell him that though). You haven't expressed suspicion of DDD and AFAIK not said anything about seeing Sotty as Town (as opposed to "not scummy that you know of")... so... why?

I never like to go as far as to call Sotty town, because I don't trust my ability to read her. I don't agree with DDD's case on Sotty... but I don't find him scummy for it, if that makes any sense.

What do you think of my heavy implication that I don't see scum chainsawing if they don't have a clear advantage in doing so?

An advantage like attempting to shut down any possibility of a scum lynch before it became a viable? (Locke also chainsaw attacked you for your Ortolan vote ON TOP of actively arguing against the lynch.)

*Change of opinion re: Locke Lamora - If I didn't have a problem with ortolan with Locke Lamora, I wouldn't have posted #53 on D1, no?

I'm going to assume you find me scummy?

I would probably say I'm curious about what changed your mind about Locke from day 1... and that I do find it a little suspicious.

But in order for you to be scum you would have had to have pulled off a pretty epic bus in the face of Ortolan personally digging into you and getting fed up. (Which would mean that his reaction to you would have had to have been scripted which is just ridiculous.) Which isn't to say that it's impossible for you to have some anti-town role that isn't dependent on being in Orto's scumteam...

*Amished vs. Locke Lamora - I'm willing to call Town on LL. I haven't had a reason to call scum on Amished... so.

If you're trying to P.O. Amished, you're doing a good job.

I like Amished... but he replaced a slot I believed to be scum. (And still believe to be.) That's all it is.

[Zachrulez]

Which isn't to say that it's impossible for you to have some anti-town role that isn't dependent on being in Orto's scumteam...

...and yet somehow Amished's partner? in a game where your case on Amished has a lot to do with how Locke Lamora worked against the ortolan lynch? in a game where the scumteam has been revealed as "Mafia"?
Are you positing that as a theory you would like everyone to consider?

Yeah, I'm paranoid. I'm still interested in the thought process that led to your change of opinion regarding Locke/Amished though.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, what say you to voting Percy?

Percy ~ L-3 (

hohum, Amished

, xRECKONERx)

I don't really find that wagon appealing considering who's on it. (See bolded names.)

[Zachrulez]

If I wasn't reading arguments or considering that I might be wrong, I would have never voted for Ortolan.

[Zachrulez]

So something that got you to catch scum yesterday... you don't do today?

Uhhh no, that's not what I said. I refuted your accusation that I don't read arguments and don't consider that I might be wrong. (Which btw doesn't mean I'm wrong now.)

Way to misrep me.

[Zachrulez]

Way to not read any of the arguments or consider that you might be wrong. Strong play, that.

Vote: Percy

Ok, so everyone on hohum look at page 9. Seriously, go back and read it. Now.






Ok, now you tell me if hohum is scum with ortolan or if Percy is attacking hohum who went after ortolan. I don't understand this wagon at all. Hopefully I'll be able to catch fully up tonight.

So you attack me for allegedly not reading the Percy case, but YOU vote for him only 9 pages into your read.

And you somehow think it's ok to attack me for not reading the game after you did that?

[Zachrulez]

Percy finding me scummy for a knee jerk reaction of apparently wanting a Jahudo lynch kinda weakens when you consider where my vote and current suspicions are. (When a Jahudo wagon seems to have momentum and is in danger of reaching a lynch.)

Jahudo's moved down my suspicion list quickly from the start of the day. As it is now, I suspect his wagon is getting pushed along by scum.

[Zachrulez]

For the moment, I'd like to pursue my little side project with a

Vote: Zachrulez

for massive inconsistency and a possible "oh shit it's only you and me left Jack, that ortolan thing came out of

fucking nowhere

"-style retreat.

Heeeeeeeeey... so you're opertating on the theory that I'm scum with Jack? How exactly does that work? Your argument is basically that I came off of one bus to hop onto another.

[Zachrulez]

Also, all that stuff happened at the beginning of the day, why did it take you so long to express concern about it?

[Zachrulez]

@Zach

:
1. It was not only your desire for a Jahudo lynch, but also your reaction to Jack that's important in my read.

That probably wasn't one of my better plays. I immediately regretted the vote, especially after information about Locke's actions came to light.

2. I can believe that you bussed flinter like crazy on D1, and then jumped on the ortolan wagon later on. Now you don't want to keep bussing your only remaining scumpartner. That's the theory I'm exploring, anyway. Why is that inconceivable?

I guess it's not. So you think this scenario is more likely than Hohum or Locke/Amished scum I take it?

3. I only noticed this on my just-finished reread. I needed time and a reread to pick up on things like this, and get out of "HOHUM MUST DIEEEE" mode.

This is more of a where the hell were you when this actually happened question. Based on the big deal you're making of this, I would think that kind of thing would be something

[Zachrulez]

3. I only noticed this on my just-finished reread. I needed time and a reread to pick up on things like this, and get out of "HOHUM MUST DIEEEE" mode.

This is more of a where the hell were you when this actually happened question. Based on the big deal you're making of this, I would think that kind of thing would be something

... that would stand right out to you.

Would be helpful if I finished the statement I was making before actually posting...

[Zachrulez]

So you think this scenario is more likely than Hohum or Locke/Amished scum I take it?

What gave you that impression?

It's not what you say, it's where your vote is. (And consequently where your vote isn't.)

[Zachrulez]

Your case on me also hinges on Jack flipping scum... so the fact that you're voting for me over Jack makes absolutely no sense.

[Zachrulez]

Your case on me also hinges on Jack flipping scum...

Not necessarily. Whilst Jack-scum would provide very good evidence that I'm onto something here, I think your behaviour is still legitimately scummy.

What do you think about Jack now?

You have yet to come up with any other scum motivation for my actions that doesn't hinge on Jack scum.

My Jack suspicions haven't suddenly gone away, they've taken a back seat to Amished/Locke Lamora and most of my issue with Jack's slot is with either Flinter's play (Which can no longer be answered for.) or Jack's day 1 play. Since then there hasn't been anything that he's done that stands out as scummy, but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly comfortable with him either.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote, Vote: xRECKONERx

. Go wagon GOOOOO!

Later in same post.

hohum > xRx > Amished > Zach
(If I feel like a hohum wagon has any chance of succeeding, I'll vote him in a heartbeat.)

Votecount at time of vote.

Votecount 2-9

:

Jahudo ~ L-2 (Jack, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Amished, xRECKONERx)

Amished ~ L-3 (ekiM, Sotty7, Zachrulez)
Percy ~ L-5 (hohum)
hohum ~ L-5 (Vi)
Zachrulez ~ L-5 (Percy)
xRECKONERx ~ L-5 (Jahudo)

Not Voting:

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to lynch. Deadline is April 17 at roughly 12 p.m. (GMT-4).

Why exactly are you wagoning Reckoner over your top preference?

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Vote: Percy

[Zachrulez]

I'm fine with lynching Hohum or Amished as well at this point.

[Zachrulez]

Why exactly are you wagoning Reckoner over your top preference?

You already quoted the answer to your question:

(If I feel like a hohum wagon has any chance of succeeding, I'll vote him in a heartbeat.)

How can you quote this and not know the answer?
Also, what is your point, exactly? My top suspicion is hohum, yet I'm voting xRx, so I'm scum with hohum? Is this some sort of "scumslip" argument?
Not thinking things through and knee-jerk voting based off a misreading of what you already quoted = scummy.

FoS: Zachrulez

Also,

Unvote, Vote: hohum
FoS: xRx

My scumread of xRx is growing rather than shrinking, but hohum remains my first preference.

No, the answer isn't in the quote. The point I was making, in case anyone missed it is that you stated that Hohum was your top lynch preference at a point in time where Reckoner and Hohum had an equal number of votes. The point here is that if that suspicion is genuine, one would expect you to put Hohum NOT Reckoner at 2 votes, since voting Hohum over Reckoner would put Hohum in the lead. It's a matter of pushing your 2nd preference to over your top preference. It kinda contradicts your stated position yeah?

Also, I never said that any connection between you and Hohum was required in my reasoning.

And we already know you're suspicious of me, you've stated said suspicion and voted on it previously. Fosing me now just looks strategic and scummy.

[Zachrulez]

2 days to deadline

Unvote: Vote:Hohum

If nothing else maybe L-1 will get him to actually say something.

[Zachrulez]

DDD lynch = ortolan/Cobalt lynch > Jack lynch

That's how I feel, but I'd lynch any of them.

Vote: DDD

.

Jack ~ L-3 (Zachrulez, Sotty7, Cobalt, Locke Lamora)
Cobalt ~ L-3 (Vi, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Jack, Jahudo)
hohum ~ L-5 (Percy, ekiM)
Debonair Danny DiPietro ~ L-6 (xRECKONERx)

That one looks particularly bad for Reckoner in hindsight.

I've had a look at the lynch wagons, and from what I can see, Jack, DDD, Sotty, and Reckoner were on both lynching wagons.

I see Jack much less likely to be scum now in light of the flips.

I was generally feeling better about DDD over the course of day 2, and don't see him as scum either.

Sotty looks pretty clearly town to me at this point. In the situation she was in, she could have easily justified a hohum lynch over a Jahudo lynch.

As for off wagon, I think Vi is town and I'm leaning that was on Ekim.

Which leaves.

Amished
Reckoner
Hohum

I could see any of those three easily being scum. I'd lean toward Amished and Reckoner at this point over hohum.

As far as which is more likely between Amished and Reckoner, I'm not sure which way to lean. There's associative evidence against both. (Locke's opposition to the Orto lynch, Reck's DDD vote with Orto next on the block seemingly avoiding the wagon, and his strange connection with Kyle)

Looking at the evidence against both, I think more assoiative evidence against Reckoner is the tiebreaker in this situation and that I prefer a Reckoner lynch over an Amished by a slim margin.

Vote: xReckonerx

[Zachrulez]

I'm really not seeing it.

[Zachrulez]

I'm really not seeing it.

The whole Vi is lying about a post restriction thing and must be scum theory. I don't see it, and I don't get it.

[Zachrulez]

Then why would the scum decide to no-kill? There had to have been time to allow for any decisions.

Maybe that was the intention of the short night?

[Zachrulez]

What are you trying to say the intention of the short night is? That the scum decided not to kill somebody (against their wincon) for wifom purposes?

No, I am saying maybe the intention of the short night was to DEPRIVE the scum of their night kill.

[Zachrulez]

Just caught Ekim putting Reck at lynch -1.

In light of Sotty's case against Ekim and to prevent a quick day.

unvote

[Zachrulez]

So, Hohum pushes Vi on the post restriction thing, only to drop it and suddenly become suspicious of Ekim as his lynch becomes viable. (And also more or less kept the Reckoner option open as well.)

So yeah... seriously...

Vote: Hohum

[Zachrulez]

Scum Sotty could have easily justified hammering Hohum over Jahudo on day 2. As a result, Sottyscum makes no sense to me at this point.

[Zachrulez]

I still need to look at the lynching wagons, which I haven't had a chance to do yet, but based on the way the lynch went down yesterday and how people found their way onto the wagon, this is how I'm seeing things

Town:

Sotty
Vi
DDD
Amished
Reckoner
Hohum

Scum:

[Zachrulez]

Scum Sotty could have easily justified hammering Hohum over Jahudo on day 2. As a result, Sottyscum makes no sense to me at this point.

The thing about this is she didn't hammer jahudo. I did.

That renders your argument moot.

Given the likelihood of you voting yourself over Jahudo, her vote on him was effectively the hammer.

[Zachrulez]

Scum Sotty could have easily justified hammering Hohum over Jahudo on day 2. As a result, Sottyscum makes no sense to me at this point.

The thing about this is she didn't hammer jahudo. I did.

That renders your argument moot.

Given the likelihood of you voting yourself over Jahudo, her vote on him was effectively the hammer.

That's a stupid argument.

...of all the times to not have a witty comeback...

Wait, I do have a witty comeback.

It's not like we're just deciding now that Sotty effectively hammered Jahudo, because two posts after Sotty voted I said exactly that.

Because I'm right.

Also, you're scum.

So if

I'm

scum - and presumably the only scum left in the game - why are you so busy tearing down

Sotty7

?

He needs someone to lynch after you of course...

[Zachrulez]

It's funny how you pop on to try to defeat an argument that all but clears a player, while appearing to be interested in nothing but the fact that Vi is scum, while suddenly becoming interested in other lynches as they become viable.

[Zachrulez]

You own "facts" that Vi is scum rather.

[Zachrulez]

It's funny how you pop on to try to defeat an argument that all but clears a player, while appearing to be interested in nothing but the fact that Vi is scum, while suddenly becoming interested in other lynches as they become viable.

A stupid argument to clear a player really doesn't clear a player, but v0v.

Sotty could have either voted for Jahudo in that situation or hammered you. If she was scum, why wouldn't she hammer you in that position?

[Zachrulez]

It's not a matter of whether or not you've actually said she's scum. It's the fact that in the absence of any real suspicion of Sotty, you have chosen to PROTEST the notion that she's all but cleared based on her actions not making any sense as scum. (While saying the argument is shit, you haven't come up with any compelling reason why.)

If you are a townie and SO SURE that Vi is scum, why the hell would you care about my statement that Sotty is town or my reasoning for it? I mean Vi is scum right? So why does it matter?

[Zachrulez]

I'd rather see you lynched before sotty. You're just looking for someone to argue with, after all you're the one who pointed out how useless this argument really is.

Yeah, would be nice if people started throwing votes on me so you could hammer me all nice and fast like wouldn't it?

[Zachrulez]

I'd rather see you lynched before sotty. You're just looking for someone to argue with, after all you're the one who pointed out how useless this argument really is.

Yeah, would be nice if people started throwing votes on me so you could hammer me all nice and fast like wouldn't it?

Damn straight.

Any particular reason you desire my lynch?

[Zachrulez]

You know what? Let's make this interesting. Simply because I'm confident you're scum and this will make you look a million times worse.

You remember that 10 minute night? I was responsible for it.

Anyone want to counter that claim?

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, that reaction is so much better than actually scumhunting...

[Zachrulez]

I had a feeling that was you. Why did you claim? I doubt you would have been lynched today despite hohum's desire.

PREVIEW EDIT: Why did Zach's claim make you self vote hohum? That doesn't make any sense.

Basically I gave it some thought, and decided that depending on whether there's another power role out there and what it is, that it might actually be a good idea to force the scum to have to deal with me over night assuming that a Hohum lynch doesn't do the trick.

[Zachrulez]

I had a feeling that was you. Why did you claim? I doubt you would have been lynched today despite hohum's desire.

PREVIEW EDIT: Why did Zach's claim make you self vote hohum? That doesn't make any sense.

Basically I gave it some thought, and decided that depending on whether there's another power role out there and what it is, that it might actually be a good idea to force the scum to have to deal with me over night assuming that a Hohum lynch doesn't do the trick.

Now all of a sudden you're not so sure I'm scum? This living proof of Zach's naked blatant hypocrisy as well as the fact that I'm not the only one who hedges his bets.

So what? Do you think I'm scum even after that? Cause if you don't, then you might do well to actually do some scumhunting and actually make a decent case on who you think is scum, cause your case on Vi is utter crap.

[Zachrulez]

Cause you know, scumhunting is something that town does.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, it's not like I haven't already stated that I think you're scum and already laid out the reasons why...

[Zachrulez]

Without your vote behind it.

[Zachrulez]

OH SNAP! and the game of e-peen-oneupmanship continues!

Vi has barely had a chance to post. I'll decide which one of the two of you is more likely scum later.

I'm not going to run away just because you're trying to bully me into submission.

Yeah, when you're trying to convince the town that I'm scum, make sure you point out exactly WHY as scum, I would end the night phase immediately after it began to prevent the scum from being able to kill.

Here's the shovel, keep digging.

[Zachrulez]

I guess they don't have to, but if it's generally accepted that my role is town, I'm undesirable to keep around.

[Zachrulez]

Of course if Hohum is scum, none of this is likely to matter anyway.

[Zachrulez]

Also in the interest of full disclosure, I have the power to end a day phase anytime I desire. A power I have not used and have no intention of using under any circumstances.

[Zachrulez]

Both powers are/were one shot.

[Zachrulez]

ITT Hohum is scum. Please consider this appropriately when you decide on today's lynch. Thank you.

[Zachrulez]

ITT Hohum is scum. Please consider this appropriately when you decide on today's lynch. Thank you.

NO U!

Seriously, at least I attempted to make a point with my last post. You on the other hand just need to get the last word in.

Your last post had nothing to do with anything other than the fact that you twice hammered opportunistically.

[Zachrulez]

So ending night one immediately after it began isn't proof enough? How can you argue that I didn't do that if someone doesn't counterclaim me?

[Zachrulez]

If it's worth anything, Amished was speculating about the cause of the short night one, and I kinda pointed to the direction of what actually happened during the last day phase before I actually claimed.

And yeah, I realize I'm getting dragged into a back and forth with Hohum and that I probably should have stopped posting a page ago. I will try to avoid the temptation to continue responding to him.

[Zachrulez]

wait, did you just say you'd hammer someone who you think is town?

Yes... he did.

Hmmm, maybe I AM wrong, I need to think on it.

Unvote:

[Zachrulez]

I'm so right, I can feel it. I gave you {xRx} an easy out to follow me before, and you did it.

Zach, remind you of yourself when I caught your scumbuddy raven in that newbie game at all?

Honestly I could see any one of you three as scum easily...

[Zachrulez]

Hmmm, I've been seeing DDD as town, but I haven't really ever been able to reason much as to why. He's been under the radar for the most part over the entire game, and I don't really understand his distrust of Vi beyond the fact that the scummiest players who are most likely to make endgame should they avoid being lynched may also be likely to vote Vi in an endgame scenario.

That's something that actually is a bit unsettling to me. I'm very confident in my Sotty and Vi town reads, I just don't think either is scum in this game.

[Zachrulez]

Also Reckoner, do you think that Vi's interaction with Ortolan on day 1 was possible/likely scum/scum? That's pretty much the only way Vi works as scum in this game.

[Zachrulez]

Which posts, specifically?

The point where Vi voted Ortolan and then Ortolan retaliated by calling Vi scum saying "You always try to get me lynched when you're scum."

Which resulted in a back and forth between them which resulted in Ortolan requesting replacement and Ortolan's wagon being pushed to lynch.

Ortolan's ISO (toward the bottom half mostly.) gives a pretty good summary of what went down.

I just have a hard time swallowing that interaction being scum/scum as Vi's attacks on Ortolan seemed to upset him and result in him requesting replacement.

If Ort already had a reasonable amount of suspicion on him, I could see it as a bus where Ort simply was upset that Vi was bussing him, but given that it was suspicion from Vi that actually resulted in a bandwagon. (Where there were plenty of excuses for Vi to pursue other wagons.) I don't buy that it was a bus.

[Zachrulez]

Hohum seems too self destructive to be scum at this point. (Though it could just be a trick.) My experience and gut tell me that lynches like this don't tend to turn out well...

I could see Amished as scum pretty easily. I've outlined reasoning for Locke scum, and my suspicions of the player slot have never really subsided.

DDD's placement on both wagons actually has garnered him a lot of town cred and seems too perfect. I think it's possible that he's been fooling us all.

Glancing at isos and voting patterns, I am actually leaning more toward Reckoner being town. He's been on both scum wagons with votes that are arguably weak, but hasn't bothered trying to take credit for the lynches. (As I would expect scum to try to do to a degree.)

Also the dead scum seemed pretty interested in lynching him too.

[Zachrulez]

Which would give him badly needed town cred after the way his predecessor opposed an Orto lynch.

Also, I don't buy that busses necessarily tend to come at the tail end of wagons. If a bandwagon has a decent chance of resulting in a scum lynch, I'd actually expect earlier votes to be busses, mainly because that's exactly how town cred is gained.

[Zachrulez]

Keeping things in context. Jahudo joined an Amished wagon after Sotty, myself, and Ekim voted for Locke with strong feelings that he was scum. At that point Jahudo could have looked at the situation and considered Amished a lost cause.

As to the point about immediately cross bussing, I find that argument a bit... alarming actually as the window of time they were cross bussing was actually pretty brief toward the end of the day. Amished flipped his vote to Jahudo as momentum was building on that wagon as it was also becoming clear that his Percy wagon wasn't going anywhere.

[Zachrulez]

I could be down for a Hohum or DDD lynch actually based on what I've read.

My gut is twitching a bit at the idea of voting Amished today after the arguments that DDD made for his innocence.

[Zachrulez]

In fact

Vote: DDD

I prefer a DDD lynch slightly. If it's not him, I'm confident it's Hohum.

[Zachrulez]

Also post 1008 by Amished is a good reason to move him down my scumlist a bit.

[Zachrulez]

Keeping things in context. Jahudo joined an Amished wagon after Sotty, myself, and Ekim voted for Locke with strong feelings that he was scum. At that point Jahudo could have looked at the situation and considered Amished a lost cause.

Bullshit, Amished wasn't even the biggest wagon at that point and it was six to lynch. Three players voting would hardly make a player a complete lost cause.

It's not necessarily about size. It's about who's on the wagon, how strongly they feel about it, the quality of the arguments, and how likely scum perceives them to be able to convince the rest of the town to lynch.

As to the point about immediately cross bussing, I find that argument a bit... alarming actually as the window of time they were cross bussing was actually pretty brief toward the end of the day. Amished flipped his vote to Jahudo as momentum was building on that wagon as it was also becoming clear that his Percy wagon wasn't going anywhere.

No, they did not immediatly cross bus but two remaining scum both jump hard onto their partners wagons on day two after a correct day one lynch? I'm not buying that and you aren't either anymore.

But you argued that they immediately did. The way it happened I actually could see if scum were panicking.

... anyway

I tend to think there's a good chance that Amished is town in spite of your arguments, not because of them.

[Zachrulez]

Actually I don't think hohum posted between the time that Reck was put at lynch -1 to the point I unvoted, so I don't think it's unplausable to believe that he wouldn't have swooped in and hammered Reck given a chance.

[Zachrulez]

Sotty, what are your thoughts on DDD and Vi?

I'm not very clear on where you stand with either.

[Zachrulez]

Zach - Could you go into more detail about DDD's wagon placement being "too perfect"?

Basically he was early on both scum wagons in a way that looks pretty damn clean... yet scum seem to have other priorities with the kills. Something that bothers me. Also I don't like the argument he made against Sotty on day 2, or the argument he started making against you on d3. (One that he doesn't seem interested in actively pursuing with a vote.)

My gut is twitching a bit at the idea of voting Amished today after the arguments that DDD made for his innocence.

I'm not sure I follow...[/quote]

I don't really like his arguments for Amished innocence. It leaves me thinking he's scum who knows Amished is innocent rather than through any means of deduction that really makes sense to me.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP: The ever losing battle with quote tags.

Zach - Could you go into more detail about DDD's wagon placement being "too perfect"?

Basically he was early on both scum wagons in a way that looks pretty damn clean... yet scum seem to have other priorities with the kills. Something that bothers me. Also I don't like the argument he made against Sotty on day 2, or the argument he started making against you on d3. (One that he doesn't seem interested in actively pursuing with a vote.)

My gut is twitching a bit at the idea of voting Amished today after the arguments that DDD made for his innocence.

I'm not sure I follow...

I don't really like his arguments for Amished innocence. It leaves me thinking he's scum who knows Amished is innocent rather than through any means of deduction that really makes sense to me.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Vote: Hohum

I'm down for a Hohum lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Reckoner and Amished have some redeeming value that makes me 2nd guess that they're scum. Hohum has none.

[Zachrulez]

Remember when you guys jumped all over me when I attempted to explain why Sotty wasn't clearable? Maybe (just maybe) the town as a whole could have been a little more forgiving of my absenteeism early on we might have outed her!

Anyways, good game. She had us all fooled.

The logic was sound. In a turn of irony, Sotty didn't realize the voting situation between you and Jahudo and her bus was actually an accident where she didn't fully comprehend the situation.

Sigh. She was otherwise scummy so that was most unfortunate.

[Zachrulez]

How the hell did you really believe Sotty's case?

/hangs head

Sotty does it again.

I is sad.

If it's any consolation, I was STARTING to lean town on you toward the end Amished.

[Zachrulez]

Seriously, Sotty played this to perfection. But to be honest, it

had

to be Sotty looking back at it. The hohum lynch was so bad, I'm pissed I participated in it.

By the way, sorry for being lazy this game. I got behind at the beginning, and just never felt like catching up and getting into the game. Awesome setup though. And mostly awesome town list. I wouldn't have lost my cool so much if DDD wasn't being a fucking asshole most of the game.

PS, I thought in that final three, Sotty was the obvious scum. The only person I would have truly believed was scum besides Sotty was Vi, and Sotty killed her during the night. I knew Amished was town, and a lot of my vehement hate for DDD was just laziness and not feeling like scumhunting combined with an effort to throw scum off to who I actually suspected to hopefully create a no-brainer lylo situation at the end. Alas.

I was about to rage if you guys actually pulled the trigger on a Vi lynch.

I raged pretty hard on the Ekim and Reckoner lynches too...

[Zachrulez]

I felt like I got stabbed through the heart when I found out Sotty was the last scum. (As opposed to getting stabbed through the heart in a game sense I guess...)