Riddle Me This! NY111 - mafia dead - Town wins!

[Korts]

/confirmed

[Korts]

Vote: Izzy

Burn the witch!

[Korts]

No.

[Korts]

Shea, if you want to play this again, my answer will be the same as last time. I will claim only if I think it's necessary.

[Korts]

Also,

unvote, vote: VasudeVa

Please explain how voting with dice is helpful at all.

[Korts]

Also,

unvote, vote: VasudeVa

Please explain how voting with dice is helpful at all.

Random Voting Stage. Durr.

Kindly address Shea's questions.

[Korts]

Nevermind.

Re: 1) and your dismissive response to me, how do you expect to achieve any kind of valuable reaction if your method of choosing a vote is public and known to be completely harmless in terms of threat of lynching?

Re: 3) what is your opinion of the Izzy wagon?

Re: 2) your description of events doesn't address any of the relevant interactions, as far as I can see. Please explain.

[Korts]

VasudeVa: voting randomly is more unhelpful than voting arbitrarily, because it gives the others no insight into your train of thought, thus robbing the game of valuable discussion starters. This ties in with my response to Shanba: voting with dice is anti-town and not directly scummy, but by proxy, taking away the initial kick the discussion needs, it can be construed as such.

2) you haven't explained your response. Break it down for me, and don't give me page numbers and "relax bro" bullshit. Mafia is srs bsns.

[Korts]

Shea, that is bull

hokey

. If I see material worth pursuing, I will pursue it. No-one has sole ownership over avenues of discussion and lines of questioning; if you have a different idea of what the questions should be, you're free to go that way. Forum mafia has the benefit of not being tied to a linear discussion.

Vote Count

DizzyIzzyB13

- Korts, ksun482, Shanba, inHimshallibe, dahill1, FeFiFoFum (L-5)

mipe

- VasudeVa (L-10)

Korts

- Thestatusquo (L-10)


Not Voting:

ImmuneShadow
Dr.Cyanide
RichardGHP
Quagmire
DizzyIzzyB13
scotmany12
Chevre
Anon
mipe
theopor_COD
Richard Massive
springlullaby

Anon's vote did not count because I have no idea what Richard he is referring too.

"When is a door, not a door?"

[Korts]

It does but there is a difference between a) Talking about a subject that has been broached by another player and b) Directly responding to the questions that someone else has asked a player to the point where my follow up is less effective. The first one is perfectly fine, the second one seems like an attempt to steer discussion and head off my ability to fully pursue my own avenues of discourse. Wanna guess which one you did?

Uh definitely not the second one. Not once did I address your questions, only the answers given, which has no bearing on your follow-up. You are welcome to prove to me that I have been unhelpful if you have examples to support your claim.

[Korts]

vote: izzy

don't even claim just die

Doing a quick reread, I felt compelled to bump this post.

Please explain the rationale behind this, Mr. Giant.

[Korts]

It's RVS. I don't expect to accomplish anything until we're out of it and have started scumhunting

NO. RVS is not something to get over, nor is it something in which scumhunting doesn't happen. It is merely a stage where information is not so readily available. Do your work instead of whining, otherwise information will not be generated.

[Korts]

Richard, the whole general attitude of yours toward RVS is basically whining; the reason RVS is not something to get out of is because it doesn't really exist. Information doesn't come in bulk after some magical line is crossed. The constructive thing to do is not to idly pass the time waiting for the end of something that doesn't have one. Find something to bite on and don't let go until you have something better.

Geez, what is this, Mafia 101?

[Korts]

I am sad to see that you are at the point of competence where you know enough to think that you have a clear perspective on theory yet still cling to ideas such as "RVS exists". I'll be happy to continue this discussion after the game, but I fail to see much benefit in carrying on in this way right now.

Nevertheless I would like to see some actual analysis out of you.

What is your opinion on inHim? Do you think there is any valuable information to be gleaned from the Vas/Shea/me exchange? What's your take on post 41?

[Korts]

[

mipe post

]
Don't like this post at all. There has been a lot of stuff you that's happened, and this post ignored commeting on a of it, and keeps acting in a random manner. Please involve yourself in the game, or I will be focusing attention on you real quick.

Why are you giving mipe fair warning when pretty much the same behavior from inHim got him your vote on the first account of you mentioning it?

[Korts]

Shea: fair enough. Your wording just didn't make it quite clear whether you're expressing suspicion of mipe or coaching him.

I will have to read post 100 onwards properly again tomorrow, my mind has spontaneously shut off. Night.

[Korts]

I dislike the stall of the Izzy wagon.

Although, I sincerely have no idea on why the wagon is happening. Why anyway? Is this some Meta-Nazi ploy, trying to lynch off the proverbial 'Jews' or something?

Still, this will move town forwards. So here.

unvote, vote Izzy

Seriously? If you don't know what the Izzy wagon is for, why are you on it? If your best guess is that it's a completely pointless venture, why are you on it?

unvote, vote: VasudeVa

Blatant opportunism.

To be fair, I don't see a big issue with dahill's distinction between anti-town and scummy, although the "did anyone else see this" part does make it a bit more difficult for me to believe that he didn't find Richard scummy.

[Korts]

I'm tipsy and tired.

unvote: VasudeVa

, he's just a newbie who has read too many games and not enough theory, with no experience to counteract the lack thereof. I suggest you go find the Mafia Discussion forum and read threads by the dozen, paying attention to individual theorists' reputation (join dates and in-thread interactions should give you a fair idea of who knows better and who's a nitwit).

As for me not explaining my vote, it's all fecking there in the post. Concentrate on the rhetorical questions if you still don't get it, but you seem to have gotten it, because you concede that opportunism can be seen in your actions. Well, opportunism is scummy in most if not all cases.

Imma come back to the thread tomorrow, when I'm not about to fall asleep.

[Korts]

I've momentarily lost track of the game, stuck somewhere on the eighth page and with no motivation right now to catch back up.

I promise you some of my time tomorrow.

[Korts]

Sorry I took so long.

A question to TSQ, why are you all over the place? Also, is that normal for you as town?

This seems out of place for me. SL is an experienced player and I don't know why she'd interpret Shea's actions as being "all over the place"--the motivation for it is clear, and clearly pro-discussion if not outright pro-town. I kinda get the idea that SL is just trying to set up a line of interrogation towards a high profile player for later exploitation.

I'm not comfortable with Richard(GHP)'s post 201, either. There doesn't seem to be much reason to defend Izzy at that point, if at all, and the points he raise seem pointless or scummy: the first is blatantly obvious (that there is no case behind the wagon; it was the first D1 wagon, of course not); the second, that there are now better lynches, futile (the Izzy wagon had already lost its momentum by this time, and players were directing attention elsewhere); and the third appears to be an appeal both to the town's emotion in raising Izzy's later competence, thus postponing an Izzy lynch indefinitely, and an appeal to Izzy--praising Izzy's scumhunting abilities is a clear-cut buddying maneuver.

The scenarios Richard's post fits into are the following: a) he is scum, partnered with Izzy, and trying to deflect any remaining attention from her. b) he is scum, and Izzy is town; he is either trying to get brownie points from her eventual lynch and get into her favor, or he is trying to somehow direct attention back to her by beating a dead horse. c) he is town and is way behind on schedule.

c) doesn't seem likely, because he's ignored all of the content after the Izzy wagon, referring to later developments only in his statement that "there are now lynches that actually have merit in them". a) doesn't seem very productive, because discussion had moved on from Izzy without his help. The logical conclusion is b).

vote: RichardGHP

That said, Anon's 213 doesn't give me a good impression of him either. It seems like he's piggybacking on pre-existing cases, especially with the promise to look into scot right after IAUN expresses his suspicion and votes that way.

[Korts]

The argument boils down to "he addressed the town

awkwardly

when it wasn't necessary according to his projected motives!!!"

Fixed. That's my understanding of the case, at least.

[Korts]

The scenarios Richard's post fits into are the following: a) he is scum, partnered with Izzy, and trying to deflect any remaining attention from her. b) he is scum, and Izzy is town; he is either trying to get brownie points from her eventual lynch and get into her favor, or he is trying to somehow direct attention back to her by beating a dead horse. c) he is town and is way behind on schedule.

You forgot d) Richard is pretty newbish and is putting too much stock into the events of Mafia 107.

This doesn't really explain why he'd take a stand against a wagon that's already lost its momentum, in the face of actually discussing relevant points.

[Korts]

GHP mind elaborating on why instead of one sentence answers?
His defense of Izzy is weird especially considering he eagerly hopped on her wagon earlier but when later asked why Izzy wasn't the lynch for the day, one of the reasons he offered was that the wagon had no basis.

Why do you switch from talking to Richard to talking to the town between sentences?

[Korts]

That is a completely unsubstantiated claim, Quag. It's the kind of claim that doesn't even need any support, because it is based on the apparent lack of something instead of anything concrete. Basicall it's utter bullshit, and that's all I have to say on the matter.

Things I'm wondering: where is FeFiFoFum? He's completely disappeared from this game, and no-one seems to have noticed. Two of his four posts were extremely scummy, and the other two were completely unrelated to the actual game, yet there doesn't seem to be any attention around him.

vote: FeFiFoFum

[Korts]

Also,

mod: please prod FeFiFoFum

FeFiFoFum: who are your suspects? What do you think of the dahill, scot, Izzy, and Richard wagons? Do you hold to your statement that Izzy should die without a claim?

[Korts]

@Korts: Why FeFiFoFum and not one of the other lurkers? (theo who has been prodded or ImmuneShadow) What separates Fx4 from the others that would garner your vote?

I had addressed FeFiFoFum before, so when I skimmed the player list his name stood out as familiar even though I hadn't seen him post. A quick view in isolation told me that he was remarkably scummy in proportion to his minimal contribution.

Thanks, Quag. Could you explain how the cases I presented were "built on a house of cards" as opposed to being substantive? And I don't see any problem with pursuing anti-town behavior for the purpose of clarifying pro-town motives.

My vote was placed on VasudeVa for an admittedly anti-town and not necessarily scummy action, but at that time there was nothing more worthwhile. I didn't switch to Richard because the two actions were equal in the harm they could inflict on scumhunting. Also note my post 78 where I

do

give up on lecturing Richard on theory, contrary to your assertion.

Nor did I ever admit that my categorization of VasudeVa's vote on Izzy as blatant opportunism was outright wrong. I still hold that that interpretation is valid.

As for my eventual vote on Richard, it wasn't a fault in his understanding of theory that prompted me to vote him. It was his assertion that Izzy, as an apparently strong player, should not be lynched, even though her wagon had died before he ever defended her. The fact that he had wagoned Izzy earlier on is proverbial icing. His defense was most likely, as discussed in my post 239, a simultaneous appeal to the town and Izzy, with the assumption that Izzy is town.

My top suspect is still probably Richard, for the record, but FeFiFoFum's case needs to be explored.

Also, I currently have no tripe with VasudeVa, contrary to your implication in 290. He seems to be genuinely trying to hunt for scum.

FeFiFoFum

: the next time you post, answer my questions in post 271.

Richard's case on dahill is really contrived. I'm happy to break it down point by point on request, but I really don't want to waste space.

[Korts]

unvote, vote: mipe

[Korts]

I think I'm going to follow up on an earlier FoS of mine, mipe. No, this isn't a bandwagon. If you look at my first or second post, I stated my suspicions of mipe, but said I didn't have time to make a case. I guess I do now. Anyway...

This is quite an anxious pre-emptive defense. Why do you feel this needed to be stated?

[Korts]

Quag you are being deliberately thick. mipe has contributed nothing, yet he keeps posting inane and/or useless shit. He has had ample time and ample material, and he has had direct issues with him that should have been addressed. How the fucking hell do you think the case against him is stupid?

[Korts]

mipe, if you have any intention of helping town, replace yourself now.

[Korts]

I agree that Korts is suspicious because he seems to be ignoring your bitching about him

Really? I addressed his points once, I don't see any reason to do so any more.

[Korts]

Korts: have you given up on pressuring FeFiFoFum?

No, nor have I given up on Richard. But mipe is actively being useless and being completely obnoxious about it, while FeFiFoFum still needs to come back and actually post. And reply to me. My vote is not just an indicator of my suspicion but also a tool.

Paltry, am I right in interpreting that you claim sole authorship of the mipe case in your post 377?

I wonder where Shea is. He hasn't posted in 5 days, he's connected to AIM, he's not on announced V/LA.

mod: please prod Thestatusquo, FeFiFoFum, iamausername, inHimshallibe, Richard Massive; and prod or replace theopor_COD

People who also need to chime in: Anon, ksun, and anyone else who feels they owe more to this game.

[Korts]

You give me too much credit, Cody.

[Korts]

No, I've never played with Korts or read any of his other games. It's personality based. He's much more careful and calculated than his posts here would show.

I'd prefer it if you actually did your research instead of committing to a lynch based solely on an assumption that has only out of game contact as a basis.

[Korts]

Quag: providing metagame information on oneself is extremely questionable, but I'll try to find games that represent my play from multiple aspects.

Mafia 653 (Newbie); alignment: mafia, won. 19 pages. One of my better performances.
Newbie 625; alignment: town (doctor), won. 13 pages. A reasonably good performance.
Mini 639 - Sci-Fi/Fantasy Mafia; alignment: town (vanilla), lost. 29 pages. Good early game performance, mediocre endgame.
Open 98 - Bird C9; alignment: mafia, lost. 5 pages. Shows the lengths I'm willing to go to to spark discussion.
Open 133 - Lovers; alignment: town, won. 12 pages. Good performance.
Open 159 - Lovers; alignment: mafia, won. 16 pages. Good performance.

Feel free to explore further, my wiki contains 50+ games I completed.

[Korts]

Fine, don't expect your case to have any credence then.

[Korts]

You haven't proven anything I've said wrong. You just linked to a bunch of games. I just said I'm too busy and lazy to read them.

My case isn't meta-based, it's personality-based.

And that case doesn't apply is what I said.

The burden of proof is on you.

[Korts]

mod:

has FeFiFoFum responded to the prod?

[Korts]

And indeed,

mod:

please prod Richard.

~I have been searching for replacement for Richard Massive and FeFiFoFum did not pick up his prod. I will search for a replacement for him as well.~

[Korts]

Quag, I responded to your case once, you didn't bring any new points up, I didn't feel the need to respond any further.

The cases that I'm pushing aren't faulty, either. The Vas case was entirely justified in the interpretation of Vas's actions, and it was as strong a case as any at the time. The FeFiFoFum case is as strong as it can get without FeFiFoFum posting any more, and I still hold that his initial statement about the Izzy claim seemed to fit the profile of overeager newbscum. The FeFiFoFum angle should've been explored--sadly, he won't be able to answer now. As for the mipe case, he's being deliberately unhelpful, period. If he's town, he should have replaced out long before.

Richard(GHP): I can't find an answer from you to the implicit question in my initial accusation. Why did you feel it necessary to defend Izzy (or at least state your unwillingness to lynch her) when you did?

[Korts]

FeFiFoFum: answer my questions.

[Korts]

If you replace out, Shea, I'm going to be real mad.

[Korts]

mipe: do you think it's wise, assuming you're telling the truth, to ask another vanilla to out themselves in order to confirm your claim?

[Korts]

FEFIFOFUM: ANSWER ME

[Korts]

People I'm willing to lynch: FeFiFoFum, mipe, ksun, Richard. We really should do something at this point.

[Korts]

Hi, Yos.

[Korts]

Will post later, no willpower right now.

[Korts]

*coughs*

Oi mipe, what purpose does this post serve, and why not do something constructive for a change? Like, if you don't want to help, at least replace out.

I support Fonz's pressure on Izzy, although I could imagine her behavior fitting into Izzytown's profile.

Yos, what did you think of dahill and the case on him? Also, in 539, you mention Vas wanting people to claim as a point against him--do you think that's scummy, or just anti-town?

zoraster: any reason why you think scot's attack on Vas is distancing in particular? And re: post 562, is there any reason why your hypothetical situation described included "scum a" and not just generic "scum"? Do you have any reason to suspect multiple scum groups?

Also, your hypothesis assumes that mipe, dahill, I, and everyone scot has defended in attacking their attacker is town, or at least not the same faction as scot. Would you say that's true?

Richard calling wagoning null seems like a desperate defense. And the catch-up post is mostly fluff--QFTs, snappy comebacks to questions and comments that have already been addressed similarly, and listing your own self on the list of town reads, with little actual valuable analysis or action, doesn't seem like a particularly helpful post. Your scum reads have no substance either; the Quag read is entirely gut-based, and the scot case is similarly non-existent.

Scot's insistence that you answer his questions back on page 13 or something are entirely valid. I would like to see those answers too.

And don't threaten with replacing out if you're not serious. That's just appealing to emotion, man.

unvote, vote: Richard

Note that anytime any of you wants to lynch FeFiFoFum, I'm 100% behind that lynch too. I'm also down for a ksun or mipe lynch, but that's my order of preference ATM.

[Korts]

Sorry Quag, but I've had my suspicions of Richard clearly laid out for a while now. Lynching is a majority decision, so I am willing to compromise. Simply put I don't give a fuck how many wagons I have to switch to as long as someone who I think deserves to be lynched is lynched.

[Korts]

Also, I'm not quite sure I understand the GHP case. Can someone on it explain basically what it is (besides the contrived post analysis)?

There's also the defense of Izzy, which I find pretty scummy under the circumstances, and more important than the contrived PBPA. The catch-up fluff doesn't help either.

Also, if I may ask for everyone who just joined on the GHP or ksun wagon, why are you only doing it after prompting from the Fonz?

We got a deadline extension and new players, new opinions, new reactions in the circulation. That means that we're no longer at a standstill, and we can opt for a better compromise.

[Korts]

sorasgoof

- When initially voting for mipe he covers his ass by saying 'it isn't a bandwagon' as if bandwagons themselves made people suspicious. Even afterwards when Korts points out the 'pre-emptive defense', he seems extremely concerned with how he is perceived. Slightly scummy read.

Yeah, I'm so concerned with how people see me I didn't post for five days.

If you can't be bothered to play the game, ask for a replacement.

[Korts]

I'd be willing to bet money that Korts is scum

Make that a pack of cigarettes when I go to Beloit, and I will bet you that your adamant attack on me is dishonest.

I will read the rest properly tomorrow.