Riddle Me This! NY111 - mafia dead - Town wins!

[Quagmire]

Totally gut, but scot reads like he's fake-asking questions to seem productive. Didn't someone earlier notice something like this?

[RichardGHP]

Doing a dahill ISO read...

Well, scumhunting is good, because is they accidentally do something wrong, we know who the scum is. So Richard?

This kinda seems like ksun just wanted something to write, so he put an obvious statement (albeit incorrect as TSQ pointed out). At least write something to make us think you're not blatantly piggybacking.

I have no idea where in the world he got this from, and it honestly seems kind of hypocritical. Stating the obvious tells you nothing about the player. Therefore it is not a scumtell, therefore dahill had no town motivation to point this out.

Since when does me saying "look at this" imply that I think it's scummy? It's more like "look at this. this is ridiculous, anti-town and needs to changed"

Your sentences are synonymous. I don't like your contradictory reasoning here. While contradictions are not scumtells (nobody has the motivation to contradict themselves), they have a higher chance of coming from scum, especially such a contradiction as this. It's like trying to differentiate between lemonade and sparkling water just by looking at them. The normal eye will have a hard time doing so.

I wasn't implying that I "caught" anyone. It was more of a "woah check this out". I can see how you and TSQ could be thinking that I'm scum trying to boost my "townie cred" by spotting an illogical (bad logic = scum, duh) scumbag, but I think you're reading into it too much.

By your own admittance, you pointed out an anti-town occurence and then deny that you "caught" it, which you in fact did if I'm interprating this correctly. Also, why should we not read into it too much? We're trying to play a serious game, and you have to read every post between the lines.

Also, what people seem to be misunderstanding is that

I never thought GHP was scummy in the first place.

SO WHY THE HELL DID YOU POINT IT OUT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Yes, because short posts means scum, right? Very "experienced" of you.

No, but they most certainly do not mean town.

That's not true at all. Little content means little town contribution, but I'd like to say I've significantly contributed so far. If you're looking for no contribution, then you're barking up the wrong tree.

And lol @ I'm trying to redirect attention to you. You seem to think that everyone who asks you a question or is critical of you in the slightest is TUNNELING SCUM!!!

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just you switching to (in your words) the "eas[ier]" wagon even when you just said you didn't think I was scummy.

I don't see how it's possible to have large contributions in small posts. Also did you seriously just use that as your basis to vote Vas? That's absolutely ridiculous.

As for yours, to be completely honest, I can't really think of any other way to explain or defend it. You guys interpreted my post in one way and I meant for it in another way.

I really don't know what to make of this post... it just comes off as really lazy.

Dahill: Anti-town's are not necessarily scummy?

Yes..

I lol'd. Give me one example of an anti-town action that ISN'T scum-like.

What is up with this game and people admitting that they're doing nothing (see Richard Massive)?

If you realize that you a burden to the town, then do something about it! You're not helping your case much at all.

While lurkers/active lurkers can be annoying and anti-town at times, doing nothing is not an action performed exclusively or even predominatly performed by scum.

And what is your experience exactly? Not to be rude, but from your sig it looks like one game.

Played around 7 (only a couple completed) on and off-site, modded a game off-site (which had to be frozen due to mod error >_>) and another modded game in the works.

Scot I have to say, there is something about your play in this game that seems off compared to other games I've played with you. You haven't done anything necessarily scummy so far, but your tone just seems different. I think I'm gonna look at Frogs Mafia to do a quick comparison

I'd like to see more of these kind of posts out of you. Just make sure you know the mod's policy on discussing ongoing/completed games in-thread.


All up: While he unquestionably has a few good points lurking somewhere, I believe dahill to be the best lynch at the moment.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Lurkerscum Spring's strategy appears to be working.

[Quagmire]

When will people realize that lynching lurkers on day one is suboptimal play?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

There's a difference between lynching all lurkers and lynching people who have expressed scummy intentions towards lurking, before carrying out said plan to lurk as much as possible.

[scotmany12]

Totally gut, but scot reads like he's fake-asking questions to seem productive. Didn't someone earlier notice something like this?

It was inhim I believe. And could one of you two point out exactly where you get this feeling?

[Korts]

@Korts: Why FeFiFoFum and not one of the other lurkers? (theo who has been prodded or ImmuneShadow) What separates Fx4 from the others that would garner your vote?

I had addressed FeFiFoFum before, so when I skimmed the player list his name stood out as familiar even though I hadn't seen him post. A quick view in isolation told me that he was remarkably scummy in proportion to his minimal contribution.

Thanks, Quag. Could you explain how the cases I presented were "built on a house of cards" as opposed to being substantive? And I don't see any problem with pursuing anti-town behavior for the purpose of clarifying pro-town motives.

My vote was placed on VasudeVa for an admittedly anti-town and not necessarily scummy action, but at that time there was nothing more worthwhile. I didn't switch to Richard because the two actions were equal in the harm they could inflict on scumhunting. Also note my post 78 where I

do

give up on lecturing Richard on theory, contrary to your assertion.

Nor did I ever admit that my categorization of VasudeVa's vote on Izzy as blatant opportunism was outright wrong. I still hold that that interpretation is valid.

As for my eventual vote on Richard, it wasn't a fault in his understanding of theory that prompted me to vote him. It was his assertion that Izzy, as an apparently strong player, should not be lynched, even though her wagon had died before he ever defended her. The fact that he had wagoned Izzy earlier on is proverbial icing. His defense was most likely, as discussed in my post 239, a simultaneous appeal to the town and Izzy, with the assumption that Izzy is town.

My top suspect is still probably Richard, for the record, but FeFiFoFum's case needs to be explored.

Also, I currently have no tripe with VasudeVa, contrary to your implication in 290. He seems to be genuinely trying to hunt for scum.

FeFiFoFum

: the next time you post, answer my questions in post 271.

Richard's case on dahill is really contrived. I'm happy to break it down point by point on request, but I really don't want to waste space.

[scotmany12]

I finally just read GHP case on dahill, and it is honestly crap

Doing a dahill ISO read...

Well, scumhunting is good, because is they accidentally do something wrong, we know who the scum is. So Richard?

This kinda seems like ksun just wanted something to write, so he put an obvious statement (albeit incorrect as TSQ pointed out). At least write something to make us think you're not blatantly piggybacking.

I have no idea where in the world he got this from, and it honestly seems kind of hypocritical. Stating the obvious tells you nothing about the player. Therefore it is not a scumtell, therefore dahill had no town motivation to point this out.

How in the world is it hypocritical? Dahill thought that ksun was just posting for the sake of posting, and wanted ksun to provide more to the game. That's town motivation to say something like that. And dahill didn't even say what ksun did was a scumtell. You're reaching.

Since when does me saying "look at this" imply that I think it's scummy? It's more like "look at this. this is ridiculous, anti-town and needs to changed"

Your sentences are synonymous. I don't like your contradictory reasoning here. While contradictions are not scumtells (nobody has the motivation to contradict themselves), they have a higher chance of coming from scum, especially such a contradiction as this. It's like trying to differentiate between lemonade and sparkling water just by looking at them. The normal eye will have a hard time doing so.

They are not synonymous. There is a difference between antitown and scummy. People do antitown actions all the time, and they believe that they are helping the town in doing so.

I wasn't implying that I "caught" anyone. It was more of a "woah check this out". I can see how you and TSQ could be thinking that I'm scum trying to boost my "townie cred" by spotting an illogical (bad logic = scum, duh) scumbag, but I think you're reading into it too much.

By your own admittance, you pointed out an anti-town occurence and then deny that you "caught" it, which you in fact did if I'm interprating this correctly. Also, why should we not read into it too much? We're trying to play a serious game, and you have to read every post between the lines.

See, you're reasoning is different than shanba's and tsq's. You're not mentioning that it looked like dahill was trying to influence the town. You're sticking onto the idea that because dahill was pointing out an antitown action, he must have thought that you were scum. I don't even think you are considering that hill could have been trying to simply correct something. Really, you aren't reading between the lines at all.

Also, what people seem to be misunderstanding is that

I never thought GHP was scummy in the first place.

SO WHY THE HELL DID YOU POINT IT OUT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Hill has already answered this. He says he was trying to correct someone's play

Yes, because short posts means scum, right? Very "experienced" of you.

No, but they most certainly do not mean town.

I don't even know what this means. Length of posts has nothing to do with whether someone is town or not. The content of the posts do.

That's not true at all. Little content means little town contribution, but I'd like to say I've significantly contributed so far. If you're looking for no contribution, then you're barking up the wrong tree.

And lol @ I'm trying to redirect attention to you. You seem to think that everyone who asks you a question or is critical of you in the slightest is TUNNELING SCUM!!!

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just you switching to (in your words) the "eas[ier]" wagon even when you just said you didn't think I was scummy.

I don't see how it's possible to have large contributions in small posts. Also did you seriously just use that as your basis to vote Vas? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Content is content is content. Length of posts mean nothing. Someone who posts a lot of shorts posts that are meaningful has contributed to the game. Why are you focusing on the length of hill's posts and not the content of them? Also, how is his reasoning ridiculous? You can't just say that and then not explain why.

As for yours, to be completely honest, I can't really think of any other way to explain or defend it. You guys interpreted my post in one way and I meant for it in another way.

I really don't know what to make of this post... it just comes off as really lazy.

Regardless of whether or not it is lazy, how does that make dahill scum?

Dahill: Anti-town's are not necessarily scummy?

Yes..

I lol'd. Give me one example of an anti-town action that ISN'T scum-like.

Antitown and scummy are not synonymous. The motivation behind the action is huge. Players can perform antitown actions while not have the intent to hurt the town.

What is up with this game and people admitting that they're doing nothing (see Richard Massive)?

If you realize that you a burden to the town, then do something about it! You're not helping your case much at all.

While lurkers/active lurkers can be annoying and anti-town at times, doing nothing is not an action performed exclusively or even predominatly performed by scum.

Once again, dahill never even called Richard Massive scum. You're trying to twist whatever dahill said into something scummy. I read this post by dahill as him calling Richard Massive to contribute more, not that he thinks he is scum.

You're entire case seems contrived. It looks like, because I asked for you reasoning, you went back and tried to make dahill look as scummy as possible, trying to twist the majority of what he says into a scummy action. You're trying to pursue an easy lynch, and when questioned about your vote, you put out a case which is entirely contrived.

Unvote, Vote: RichardGHP

[Shanba]

With all that said, I still don't like Vasuveda, but not for the reasons Korts has tried to push. I'll reread him in iso and see what I can find.

I'm very interested in this, because the case you've debunked on VaVa is pretty much the case that we've been saying is bunkum for several pages (and against which the defence VaVa is new is fairly legit.)

I'm not convinced by your case on Korts, though. His thought process as regards VaVa (the second attack, not the first) pretty much mirrored my own; I saw VaVa's vote on izzy and thought "there's an opportunistic vote" before sitting back and thinking, well actually... why is Va voting for izzy? Maybe it would be better to find out before leaping all over it, and then Va came out with his bullshit theoretical justification which made perfect sense if he, for whatever reason, was really bad at mafia theory. And then Korts backs off with similar reasoning. So calling Korts' vote there transparent and lazy seems to me like a lack of perspective. For the other two I'm reserving judgement - I'm not as opposed to pressuring lurkers as you, quag.

in fact, my pet hate is getting to, say, day 3 and realising that all the guys who were active and expressing views and who I hence had reads on are now all dead and I'm left with a bunch of unknowns - that's when having a yos or whatever in the game really helps, since his playstyle of KILL ALL LURKERS does tend to get more people involved in the game. I basicaly have no notes on ksun, SL, FFFF, IHSIB or theo, and few on the two guys who replaced in. That's a quarter of the game. It's fine on day 1, but by, say, day 3 we could have a situation where more than half the players are virtual unknowns.

mipe - what do you make of the dahill wagon and the objections to it noted by quag and others? If you weren't voting dahill, who would you be voting?

[dahill1]

I was gonna answer to GHP's case, but Scot pretty much did for me..

And while it is an awful case and I agree with Scot on GHP, I also don't like how Scot answered all of the questions that were directed at me. He does seem to geniunely think GHP is scummy but this could easily just be bussing/two scum groups present. I still have to check out Frogs Mafia

[scotmany12]

I was gonna answer to GHP's case, but Scot pretty much did for me..

And while it is an awful case and I agree with Scot on GHP, I also don't like how Scot answered all of the questions that were directed at me. He does seem to geniunely think GHP is scummy but this could easily just be bussing/two scum groups present. I still have to check out Frogs Mafia

His case is posted there for everyone. I attacked the validity of his case. That involved me addressing questions that were posed at you. You're still free to answer them. I don't think there was any place I really answered for you, except where he asked:

Also, what people seem to be misunderstanding is that

I never thought GHP was scummy in the first place.

SO WHY THE HELL DID YOU POINT IT OUT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

[Quagmire]

I'm very interested in this, because the case you've debunked on VaVa is pretty much the case that we've been saying is bunkum for several pages (and against which the defence VaVa is new is fairly legit.)

what

[sorasgoof]

I really just don't feel like making a case on anyone right now. I know I said I'd do it, but yeah, I'm lazy. >__>

However, I don't understand the whole "antitown isn't necessarily scummy" thing from scot.

They are not synonymous. There is a difference between antitown and scummy. People do antitown actions all the time, and they believe that they are helping the town in doing so.

I'd just like you to explain this for me. If a townie unwittingly does anti-town things, it's still scummy. I don't think the fact that that person is a townie has any bearing on the situation. Fact is, despite the fact that that person is a townie, we as players cannot know that for sure. To that person, sure, the action wasn't scummy, but to everyone else, it is. (I'm aware that this paragraph is worded extremely strangely/might not make sense to you guys. I just got done doing three hours of homework, and my brain is a little fried.)

Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you guys asked me specific questions just to help me get into the flow of the game. I've never replaced into a game before, and I'm not quite sure where to start. I know that sounds weird, but whatever.

I'm off to play the Perfect Dark port released on the XBLA today. I'll be back tonight, probably.

[Shanba]

On the VaVa wagon - it got started because of shitty theory stuff. For me, that's pretty much a nulltell when coming from a newbie

and he's voting Vasuveda due to an error in his theory.

I'm not sure what you're whatting about.

[VasudeVa]

@Quagmire
Your argument is silly, stupid and hypocritical. Before him trying to wagon on me, my posts were just me answering TSQ's Random Question spree. How could he consider the entirety of my posts if I did not post any other content other than the ones he had a problem with?

Why would he vote you then?

For being 'Blatantly opportunistic'.

[Anon]

Kay, spent half an hour rereading the 13 pages and came out with a list of people that shouldnt make it to endgame, aka they should die asap. Feel free to answer:

-

soragof:

for not rereading the game and wasting time/faking interest talking about antitown vs scummy in page 13.

-

Richard

for his dahill case that is more a "let me isolate him and find out everything I can find to push his lynch, even if its weak".

-

Mipe

. I strongly suspect his vote on me was a strategy for posteriorirty, aka framing me. His vote and quick unvote just dont make any sense. Posterior "why are you not looking at me" is wifomy but sounds fake.

-

Springlullaby

. Lurker and his attack on scotmany is terrible and oportunist.

-

Dahill

. Still suspect for the "wait, Did anyone else see this?" when there was nothing valuable to see. Posterior vasudeva vote also smells bad in the context of his wagon.

- All the lurkers unless they start contributing.

Getting mixed signs from vasudeva and quag. As pointed out before, vasudeva feels like he really wants to reinforce the idea of being new and town, which is scummy, but at the same time he is actually posting too much/ interacting and reacting to be a scumbaggo who for obv reasons would play it careful.

Now quag. Agressive and also active, but I dont understand how dahill has been productive. Care to share?

[Anon]

I definitely want dahill in range claim but the wagon is dead with too many people not seeing it. The next good potential wagon I see is this one:

Unvote Vote: mipe.

[sorasgoof]

Kay, spent half an hour rereading the 13 pages and came out with a list of people that shouldnt make it to endgame, aka they should die asap. Feel free to answer:

-

soragof:

for not rereading the game and wasting time/faking interest talking about antitown vs scummy in page 13.

You want me dead because I haven't had time to reread the thread all the way through? Nice. Also, I was trying to generate discussion with the antitown vs scummy thing, something you haven't really done all game. I've also asked twice, I believe, for people to ask me questions to help me get in the flow of things, so it's not like I'm not willing to talk or anything.

In other words, you're flat out wrong.

P.S.- You got my name TOTALLY wrong.

[dahill1]

but I dont understand how dahill has been productive. Care to share?

I don't get how I HAVEN'T been productive. Honestly, you/Vas/Richard have been saying this but I've heard nothing to back it up so far. Point out some posts of mine that haven't been productive.

[scotmany12]

I really just don't feel like making a case on anyone right now. I know I said I'd do it, but yeah, I'm lazy. >__>

However, I don't understand the whole "antitown isn't necessarily scummy" thing from scot.

They are not synonymous. There is a difference between antitown and scummy. People do antitown actions all the time, and they believe that they are helping the town in doing so.

I'd just like you to explain this for me. If a townie unwittingly does anti-town things, it's still scummy. I don't think the fact that that person is a townie has any bearing on the situation. Fact is, despite the fact that that person is a townie, we as players cannot know that for sure. To that person, sure, the action wasn't scummy, but to everyone else, it is. (I'm aware that this paragraph is worded extremely strangely/might not make sense to you guys. I just got done doing three hours of homework, and my brain is a little fried.)

Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you guys asked me specific questions just to help me get into the flow of the game. I've never replaced into a game before, and I'm not quite sure where to start. I know that sounds weird, but whatever.

I'm off to play the Perfect Dark port released on the XBLA today. I'll be back tonight, probably.

Okay, the way I see it is like this, antitown actions do not help the town, and can be extremely detrimental, while scummy actions are made to further the scum agenda. Now antitown actions can certainly be scummy, but not all of them are. For example, lurking is pretty much always antitown, but its not always scummy. And what you just did in this post, claim to not make a case do to laziness, is antitown. I don't particularly view that as scummy. Really, the context of the action is extremely important. Does this make sense?

[Quagmire]

I'm not convinced by your case on Korts, though. His thought process as regards VaVa (the second attack, not the first) pretty much mirrored my own; I saw VaVa's vote on izzy and thought "there's an opportunistic vote" before sitting back and thinking, well actually... why is Va voting for izzy?

Umm this is one of the reasons why I'm voting Korts. Reread my post and try again.

[Quagmire]

On the VaVa wagon - it got started because of shitty theory stuff. For me, that's pretty much a nulltell when coming from a newbie

and he's voting Vasuveda due to an error in his theory.

I'm not sure what you're whatting about.

because what you said didn't make sense; please re-explain

[Quagmire]

There's a difference between lynching all lurkers and lynching people who have expressed scummy intentions towards lurking, before carrying out said plan to lurk as much as possible.

OK. And what does that have to do with scumminess?

[RichardGHP]

Do you realise how hypocritical you all are?

If I bandwagon, you'd think I'm scum for jumping on an easy lynch.

If I post a case on someone, you go out of your way to find flaws in it, so you think that I'm scum.

I'm a little confused. Would you rather I just blatantly bandwagoned? Because any attemp at posting a case on someone will only get shot down by overwhelming opposition, I can almost guarantee you. Make up your minds about what kind of votes/cases you want to see, otherwise I'm just going to plough on regardless.

[Quagmire]

Thanks, Quag. Could you explain how the cases I presented were "built on a house of cards" as opposed to being substantive? And I don't see any problem with pursuing anti-town behavior for the purpose of clarifying pro-town motives.

Well, as I said in your post earlier, your vote on Vasuveda was built on the fact that he voted randomly in RVS and a really transparent 'blatant opportunism' that was a reactionary vote to a silly player.

It was a transparent case because Vasuveda came out and said that he was jumping on the bandwagon really explicitly, saying things like "And the town moves forward," and you tried to frame your vote as if he were being subtle and deceitful. He wasn't. He was being straightforward and honest... you saw what was anti-town about his thought process and attacked. Which is stupid. Or scummy.

As dahill has pointed out earlier ITT, correcting anti-town thinking is commendable.

Voting

for anti-town thinking isn't (necessarily).

My vote was placed on VasudeVa for an admittedly anti-town and not necessarily scummy action, but at that time there was nothing more worthwhile. I didn't switch to Richard because the two actions were equal in the harm they could inflict on scumhunting. Also note my post 78 where I

do

give up on lecturing Richard on theory, contrary to your assertion.

"Nothing more worthwhile" is a bullshit excuse when you sounded aggressive and abrasive.

Nor did I ever admit that my categorization of VasudeVa's vote on Izzy as blatant opportunism was outright wrong. I still hold that that interpretation is valid.

You admitted it here:

I'm tipsy and tired.

unvote: VasudeVa

, he's just a newbie who has read too many games and not enough theory, with no experience to counteract the lack thereof. I suggest you go find the Mafia Discussion forum and read threads by the dozen, paying attention to individual theorists' reputation (join dates and in-thread interactions should give you a fair idea of who knows better and who's a nitwit).

As for me not explaining my vote, it's all fecking there in the post. Concentrate on the rhetorical questions if you still don't get it, but you seem to have gotten it, because you concede that opportunism can be seen in your actions. Well, opportunism is scummy in most if not all cases.

Imma come back to the thread tomorrow, when I'm not about to fall asleep.

You admitted Vasuveda didn't know any better. How is this not backpedaling anyway?

My vote will stand on Korts probably until he's lynched.