Newbie 922: Day 3

[Panacea]

Hello, all. I'll be SEing here. To give an intro, from here we would typically move in the direction of an RVS (Random Vote Stage) in which we all toss around baseless votes and quantify the reactions of those voted, or an RQS (Random Question Stage) in which we all ask each other questions build reads on other players. Either direction is acceptable, with popular arguements to support both. Which sounds best to y'all? Looking forward to a great game.

[Panacea]

1) Have you played with anyone on this list before?
2) What is your prior mafia game experience?
3) What is your favorite fruit?
4) Self-identify an aspect of your personality or mafia-playstyle.

1) Nope, although I've seen havingfitz in games I've read before.
2) Two games completed, two in progress (although one will be ending today, I believe), all on this site. I'm hoping that this game will be my final qualifier for IC.
3) Bananas? Though I've found that I have a hard time opening those native to the central Texas area. Just... a tidbit, lol.
4) I encourage humorous flavor in all my games. The nature of Mafia, while intellectually and strategically stimulating, I find is most rounded with some fun sprinkled in the mix. I tend to be a

very

active player, and will enthusiastically call out inactive ones. I feel inactivity to be hugely anti-Town. And I don't really feel comfortable naming actual strategy, nor do I think it's a good idea to ask that we do so. Why on earth would I give scum a color-by-number guide to how I intend to out them?

vote: Panacea

That's it? But the (non)reasons in RVS are the best part!

vote: Lawls

Because everyone knows "lulz" is much cooler.

And that sucks. I liked Andrius.

@Bridges: Would you mind providing an appropriate abbreviation?

[Panacea]

Ninja'd. Not putting Lawls at L3 this early, so

unvote: Lawls

vote: Elementary Fermion

for ninja'ing me outta my RV.

[Panacea]

Panacea you have an issue with putting lawls at l3 that early but in THE SAME POST you put elementary fermion at l3. Why is him being at L3 not an issue but lawls is?

The issue with it is that your predecessor's vote blended with the Mod's answer and I missed it. Thank you for letting me know, though! Now two of my RV's have been ruined.

unvote;vote: Independent John

, because I think an SE duel would be entertaining.

[Panacea]

Vote Panacea.

You know, even in RVS, it's just fun to include a nonreason. Especially if you're entering a bandwagon.

I'm getting more and more comfortable with my Panacea vote.

Sweet; I would offer you a chair and some nibbles, but it seems you're already comfortable.

So reading the posts so far, panacea sounded a little weird for me, first with that confusion about putting someone at L3, i don't see a problem with putting people in L3 (or even L2 as i am going to do now) it at least generates discussion and get the game out of the random voting stage

There is a problem when there've only been 13 posts and the player in question hasn't even arrived at the table yet. RVS in my opinion is best executed by a thumbscrew method, wherein you watch the recipient's reactions over time and see how they treat each new stressor (aka= vote). Not a firing squad method. -.-

[quote="Edprada'] why the problem with sharing information about your strategies? this also sound weird to me [/quote] How can that seem weird to you? He asked for playstyle first, which I have no problem offering. But by Bridges's admission of a tendency to tunnel alone, scum now know they might be able to encourage his tunneling enough for a bad vote. My strategy is not broadcasting my strategies.

[Panacea]

EBWOP. Sigh. This has been some of my worst MS posting ever. My apologies:

why the problem with sharing information about your strategies? this also sound weird to me

How can that seem weird to you? He asked for playstyle first, which I have no problem offering. But by Bridges's admission of a tendency to tunnel alone, scum now know they might be able to encourage his tunneling enough for a bad vote. My strategy is not broadcasting my strategies.

[Panacea]

but a 2nd vote during RV is not a big deal.

The point of RVS is to watch reactions. He wasn't even here. I wouldn't mind stacking votes like that so much if this wasn't a Newbie game and both players in question weren't Newbies. I remeber my first game, after all.

Can you provide links to your completed games, Panacea?

But of course:

My first game was Newbie #863, as Vanilla Townie (fun stuff- four Doc claims)
My second was Newbie #890, as Vanilla Town. More fun; just ended less than an hour ago.
Third was Newbie # 868, as Mafia Roleblocker. I replaced into that one on the last Day as a favor with deadline a few days away. If you're going to judge my scumplay, I'd prefer you not hold that one against me.
My fourth was Newbie #879, as Roleblocker. I'm rather proud of that one.

[Panacea]

Wow have we seriously put her at l3 already?

L2, actually. -.- This is going well. I really don't understand the communication-breakdown when it comes to not disclosing our individual strategies. Could someone maybe try explaining why it's so important that we do this? I just cannot see this as a good idea, especially in a scum-Bridges scenario. I can only see asking us to divulge this information as anti-Town.

[Panacea]

Anyone else's MS acting up this morning? I've already written this only to lose it.

You seem to be worried Panacea, are you worried?

Do I? Where do you get that? No, not in the least. The "tells" against me are exaggerated to the point of hilarity. But at the very least, I'm getting a wonderful feel for those players on my wagon, their reasons (or lack thereof), and the speed at which they hopped it.

Panacea’s first post strikes me as a bit overly helpful.

... ... Mine was the first post in-game. As an SE. Those are inclined to be helpful.

Explaining RVS and RQS was fine...but then following it up with the “Which sounds best” question seemed to be just a bit over the top. Like you were trying to determine the way the players would want to proceed before doing so.

I find that the debate over which, RVS or RVS, is preferable to be an efficient tactic to get reads on (typically) the more advanced players. But sorry, you're right, I should've broadcasted that when asked earlier so y'all wouldn't vote me for it.

I assume you mean Lawls (who as it turns out appears to have more mafia experience than many of us)

Yep. But, y'know, as he'd yet to post when I RV'ed him, I wouldn't

know

his experience, would I? Other than the fact that he was listed as neither SE nor IC. Ergo: Newbie.

Is Elementary Fermion the other ‘Newbie’ you were referring to? Because he had already provided his game experience (once again...mafia experience in several games on another site so by no means a Newbie) and yet you jumped off his wagon equally fast.

Have you actually looked at this post? Because you'll notice a bolded black line (Elementary's name is a bit long ), followed by the mod's bolded blue font. It looked like a question Andrius had posed to Phate, and that Phate had answered just beneath it. Dumb mistake. Yeah, I've heard, thank you.

What are you talking about Panacea? I assume you are referring to Bridges ‘aspect of personality or playstyle’ question? I didn’t see it as a request for strategy. Did any of the answers people provided give too much away?

No, looking at his question alone, there's no threat. But did you read his answer? His was an admission that he has a tendency to tunnel. He may've

worded

a request for playstyle, but he was asking for weaknesses. I think not. And I'm fresh from a scum game, so maybe I'm jumping hte gun, but look at his own answer this way:

a) He's Town. Now scum know that with the right amount of manipulation, he could more easily than your next player be encouraged to tunnel on a Townie.

b) He's scum. Now he can get away with just a bit more tunneling than your average bear, and pull the "Well I told you I happen to do that!" defense.

Either way, it's a bad idea.

So now I'm going to offer an SE lesson.

1) This game has no humorous flavor. Whatsoever. We need to fix it. If you think we're at a decidedly un-fun stage now, imagine how uninteresting it is for a player being railroaded with dressed-up "tells". Can we lighten up here, please?

2) You've got a player put at L2, RVS of D1, at

twenty-two

posts, only four of them by the accused player. Does no one see a problem here? Quicklynch? Anybody? How about now:

- Vote #1 (Bridges) was made after his votee's first post, with not so much as a nonreason offered, in what's become the RVS stage, while later claiming "it wasn't random."

-Vote #2 (Lawls) given shortly thereafter

for no stated reason whatsoever

, despite my encouraging him to offer something later. The point of the nonreason is to accent a Random Vote, and yet Lawls didn't and still hasn't offered even that. Since his opportunistic vote on me, he's asked me if I was worried. That's it.

(I actually don't mind Vote #3 (Edprada) because at least it offers

some

sort of rhyme or reason.)

While we've all been in this lovely debate, Independent John's gone AWOL, and those on the wagon haven't offered much other than to say their vote wasn't random and ask me if I was worried. Does anyone else see a problem here? This is moving way too quickly, and not a whole lot of discussion is being offered by more than a few players.

[Panacea]

Cojin, I don't understand your logic. Why is a quicklynch here impossible if I'm Town? You mean because it's likely both scummies are already on the wagon or something?

I feel we shouldent pressure her for a claim, not this early there is not enough to go off of.

LOL! Oh, Cojin... Who said anything about a claim? That'll take some 'splainin'.

First...I assume you meant to say RVS or RQS. Are you saying debating the value of both those game techniques gives good reads and that’s what you were doing? Trying to develop reads on players? My bad...I thought you were seeking concurrence from others on how to proceed. I.e. being too careful not to do the wrong thing.

Nah. You'll notice in both the games I played start to finish (I enjoy replacing, ha ha) that the game began with a debate on which was the better course. I took note of the fact that the arguement helped establish reads of more experienced players more quickly. Not to mention me just coming in with a Random Vote or Random Question without at least presenting an option to everyone else just seems rude. Let me ask you, though: what would have been "the wrong thing" anyway? I don't see me benefitting from either decision, personally.

So is your issue that Bridge asked a question, with his response, or that he asked for the information from us? It looks above like you have issue with his reply...but in your original question you say “I can only see asking us to divulge this information as anti-Town.” So what about Bridges question do you find issue with?

I think where the communication block is coming into play is between the aspects of him "asking". I have no qualms with the question he

worded

. Because I don't mind talking about my playstyle: proven by the fact that I answered the question he

worded

. But the question he worded and the response he gave do not match up. He asked if we'd talk about playstyle, and then offered a weakness. I don't feel comfortable iterating my weaknesses as a player, at least not while in-game and while those weaknesses could be used against me.

Also...I don’t think all the points made against you are dressed-up tells. Unfortunately with so many people being a bit inactive...the active players provide more material to look for tells.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I mentioned being an active player. I know the drill of getting hardballed for something silly.

Panacea...how do you feel about being at L-2?

[rant] Frankly, I'm annoyed. In the RVS I don't feel any one player should wind up at L2 by 22 posts; I don't feel the "case" against me to be solid enough for this; I feel that the players who actually voted me are hiding in the background while the best casebuilding is coming from players who haven't voted me, which in itself is obviously a problem; I feel that if I do get quicklynched soon, scum will have sacrificed a considerable amount of exposure for the quicklynch, so I feel that I'll still end out with a Town win notch for my lipstick case. [/rant]

[Panacea]

Cojin and Edprada: Would y'all mind getting avis? It will help keep track of you both.

[Panacea]

you actually do seem really worried, based on the fact you're omgusing me.

I am? No. My vote's on Independent John. Not that it's doing anything whatsoever there, though. Okie-dokie. Your perception is one of worry. Gotcha.

However, you cannot say my tells have been exaggerated to the point of hilarity, as I have yet to reveal my tells.

About that. Call me traditional, but shouldn't you have done that by now? Because you said your vote on me wasn't random. At the time I'd posted once, so I'm interested to see what you come up with.

I will check your previous games to see if you have experienced the debate between RVS or RQS as "preferable to be an efficient tactic to get reads on."

Oh, dogonnit, you got me! I was lying about the whole thing! -.- Really? Here, I'll make it easier for you:

Newbie #863, my first game (VT). I had AGar for an amazing SE.

Ugh, RVS. Blame Thesp, but I don't do RVS.

Instead, I do random questioning of other players.

The real debate picked up a bit later in game, though.

Then Newbie #890, wherein I had Thesp himself as an awesome IC.

Also, I detest the "RVS", and I will personally stab anyone who random-votes. Try beginning the game by asking other players questions and gauging their responses. There's nothing that says you must have a vote out the moment the game starts, and there's even less to suggest that these meaningless votes will garner a better response than meaningful interaction will.

But really, the sarcasm directed at the veracity of my experience with the debates is oh-so appreciated.

No, looking at his question alone, there's no threat. But did you read his answer? His was an admission that he has a tendency to tunnel. He may've

worded

a request for playstyle, but he was asking for weaknesses. I think not. And I'm fresh from a scum game, so maybe I'm jumping hte gun, but look at his own answer this way:

a) He's Town. Now scum know that with the right amount of manipulation, he could more easily than your next player be encouraged to tunnel on a Townie.

b) He's scum. Now he can get away with just a bit more tunneling than your average bear, and pull the "Well I told you I happen to do that!" defense.

Either way, it's a bad idea.

a) Not to sound cocky, but I am probably by far the most experienced player in this game (perhaps havingfitz is about average if he's really active, or maybe someone here is an alt). This doesn't mean I never act scummy

or I always vote for scum

[Yes, I'm aware. ]

,

but I don't even think it's a possibility that someone of less experience is going to manipulate me. I'm not trying to be patronizing here, but I'm very aware of following other people's cases. You also haven't realized the potential that we now have an additional scum tell in this game. Anyone who tries to take advantage of my tunnelling is probably scum.

b) as an IC, I shouldn't get away with anything. The two other ICs at the very least should be harder me -- but really everyone should. I don't have a "newb-mistake" excuse.

a) No one is infallible.

b) Yes, I know.

[Panacea]

So much posts over RVS. People seem to be getting their panties in a twist, oh wait that's only Pancea. (Only cause you're a girl, good to see some chick mafia players)

What, no one at the table in drag?

I spent far more time reading those than I wanted to, or expected to have to.

Panacea: you spam. A lot.

Yeah, sorry. Probably should've given you a warning label on that. I am working on it, though.

Panacea is very deferential as town, and scattershot as mafia. She posts a lot no matter what. She can be a bit frivolous, whether town or mafia. As town, she tries to post game-relevant things, sometimes trying to get blood from a stone. As mafia, she throws up a smokescreen of dadaist ramblings.

I hadn't expected anyone to read

all

of them; your review is quite appreciated, though, thank you!

Alright, it's about now to reveal my reasons for my vote:

Panacea's first post came across as overly helpful, which only seemed scummy in tandem with the fact that she didn't take a side. She talked about the choice between RVS and RQS instead of making a single vote or question. It seemed a little odd and wanting to go with the majority. Now, granted, at this time I had never heard the idea of learning from the debate between RVS and RQS. In fact, I still find very little value in theory-discussion for finding town or scum. Theory discussion is helpful for newbies to learn, though.

So I decided to vote for her since she didn't make a vote or question.

Her overt worry of putting someone at L-2 (still really far away in a newbie game, and if that person was quick-hammered by scum, that directly shows us scum the next day, so L-2 is not really a concern right now) sort of compounded my ideas that she was being overtly careful.

On post 16 she does the same thing, entirely avoiding the bandwagons that help us sort scum from town. This might be more anti-town than scummy behavior.

Boiled down case: helpfulness without committing to definite action, overly careful.

I disagree, but accept your case. I do, however, take note of the fact that all this has been recycled. Somehow I got the impression you had a lot more than a case that's already been built in-forum.

@Lawls: I would really appreciate it if you'd

answer the question I keep asking you

. Why is your vote where it is?

:arrow: Edprada and Independent John, I'm notorious for calling prods.

Aaaaand:

unvote

[Panacea]

No offense, Fräulein Panacea, but I don't look forward to having to wade through the morass of your previous late-game posts to evaluate you later in this game.

Oh, no worries! Trust me, I know I've had a habit of being chatty. Scum from my last Townie game told me in post-game that it was part of the reason I was Nk'ed N1; I'm still working on game theory, but I know I'm useful in keeping us rolling.

Prediction: Panacea responds to my gentle insults by being apologetic and cheerful.

... Wow, you are really good..! But I'll raise you one semi-irrelevant question: you wouldn't be some type of writer now, would you?

Pancea my vote on you is only random

as most people have been doing

There are only three votes on me, one of which has been claimed to have actually had purpose. "Most people"..? You're coming off as rather scummy to me right now.

Haven't contributed anything to the hunt and don't intend to for the next few days, ending in an absense of over 1/3 of the Day phase.

(Sorry; RayFrost is one of my MS heroes.)

I should be studying for my Anthropology midterm in an hour, so I'm mostly just going to tweak a list of Thesp's (Acosmist, yes, I did this as scum; regardless of what my allignment was in that game, it moved us out of stagnant waters, and RVS has fallen apart. It isn't random this time, either):

Havingfitz

: Do you enjoy having town roles or scum roles more? On an unrelated note, are you happy?

Bridges

: Are you scum? If not, why are you lying?

Lawls

: How good would you consider yourself at MafiaScum?

Independent John

: Do you think lurking is a scumtell?

Elementary

: What's the best method for catching scum?

Cojin

: Do you play better as town or scum? Which do you prefer?

Acosmist

: Do you find happiness in receiving role PMs? Were you happy when you got your role PM for this game?

Edprada

: Do you really

have nothing to hide.

? Do you really think

l[ing] back a bit and observ[ing] how this go for the first days

is a good idea?

[Panacea]

Mobile atm, so I can't do much. Just desperately wanted to spam you all with an

OHMYGOD, RAYFROST IS HERE!!!!

post!! Ahh! Welcome, Ray!!

K, more later.

[Panacea]

As for withholding reasons, I find it generates more interesting reactions to give votes without reasons early game. It also subtly hints at the idea of generating a bandwagon, which is the most useful information-gathering tool town has Day 1.

Sorry guys but first and foremost I am responding to a prod, but I have and will be over the next 2 days busy with university starting again and my commitment to the frisbee club and other important societies there I will not be active but I shall try and do some reading tonight and report back asap!

You did not foresee these conflicts when you joined up?

FoS Independent John

for coordinated lurking.

FOS: Havingfitz

Even if I can marginally accept this lack-of-reason business in regards to a vote, that does not extend to FoS'es. They carry very little weight when justified; they provide none whatsoever when left to the imagination. Will you elaborate on that FoS?

According to Zachrulez, my playstyle is eccentric and erratic.

(And epic. And containing the greatest flavor ever. Case in point: post #68. )

I'm her idol.

It's true. I'm naming my firstborn after him and everything... Sure hope it's a boy...

(especially since I did it as town... ).

You going to do it as Town here, too?

Edprada

: Do you really

have nothing to hide.

? Do you really think

l[ying] back a bit and observ[ing] how this go[es] for the first days

is a good idea?

RayFrost

: Is there a difference between scummy and anti-town?

[Panacea]

There is a difference.

why do you ask?

Because Edprada's question was specifically written around some things he'd said about his plan to sit back and observe; I know you won't do that, so there's nothing I could get from asking you to answer his.

[Panacea]

Panacea, you should probably be aware that there are numerous advantages to marking things without explaining including but not limited too: making memos to yourself, making memos to yourself that you can refer back on later, gauging reactions, thinking that people with a similar mindset (more likelihood of same alignment) won't need an explanation -- that's actually a huge pro-town tell for me, when someone sees something the same way I do since scum tend to think far different than town, building a silent case without alerting the person so that they do not identify their scummy behavior and you can see how they naturally react without having super suspicion, making someone feel pressured, actually making someone feel less pressured, subtle breadcrumbing . . . the list goes on and on.

Yes, I can understand that line of thinking. My own follows the track of Kill-proof idea preservation. I want what I'm thinking now available to everyone else later without them having to decode it. You've stated your experience; if you get lynched/NK'ed and Town gets to say, Mylo and everyone's re-reading to see who would have posed the biggest threat to scum and when, more can be gotten from "I think so-and-so is scummy for

this

behavior" than from a vote that looks random but apparently isn't, or an FoS that wasn't overly clarified.

I've taken down this concept as a foundation in your play, though. For now.

@ Bridges, re Havinfitz's FoS: Oh, see, that's why I needed explanation. His FoS seems, while perhaps lacking, somewhat logical to me. Lawls is playing quite scummishly and Independent John's lack of foresight is (aside from annoying) anti-Town, to some level. I concede to your judgement of it as a tad exaggerated, though.

Even thinking as objectively as I can, I'm still somewhat less likely. Sorry. All hero-worship aside (;)), if he's Town, he's a HUGE asset. If he's not, I trust myself to notice.

[Panacea]

@ Havingfitz: Sorry, I should've been clearer.

Your

FoS seems somewhat logical. I may be biased, though, as Lawls is standing out the most to me right now. I'd very much like to hear an explanation from him on the question of his time zone.

I'll be uncharacteristically unavailable for the most of the day: Driving home for Spring Break.

[Panacea]

Sorry, y'all; I know I have some material addressed to me. I know this is inconsiderate of me, but it's late here and I have a charity event to be up for in a couple of hours. I'm really sorry for leaving you hanging tonight, and I swear to post tomorrow after it's over. I just can't seem to word any answers right now.

Good night (or good 11-ish hours, depending on where you are), and again, I apologize.

[Panacea]

I know you meant my FoS seemed logical...that's why I was asking you to explain why you felt it was logical.

Simple. If your vote is tied (and I believe somewhere you mentioned being comfortable with it), then if someone else does something mildly suspicious, it makes perfect sense to keep your vote where it is and express displeasure with the

other

player via FoS.

Is your chattiness in this game, right now, a conscious game strategy or the simple continuation of an established posting pattern?

I may have to follow up on that idea, depending on your answer.

My chattiness is inherent to my personality. Boiled down, I feel the

need

to post with equal frequency regardless of my allignment, becasue either way, I feel it furthers my team's goal. I suppose in my town experience I post frequently with the goal of controlling activity. As scum, I post frequently in hopes of controlling the actual conversation. As either, I post frequently because that's just my disposition. Does this help? I'm not overly sure I've answered satisfactorily.

This is probably an artifact of the types of games I've played and the roles I've been assigned.

What types of roles were those?

@ Acosmist, re Contract Bridge: Wow... Complex. If I've understood correctly, then I think I see where you're coming from, and I definitely agree with the boxing clever statement.

Panacea, what do you think of RayFrost's [play]?

It's been my experience that many players here begin to develop a similar playstyle. But as far as my experience here extends, you will probably never find a player with RayFrost's style. He jokes around a lot (I admire the priority he assigns to all players having fun in the game), but at the same time he's actually thoroughly analyzing everything in the background. You'll see what I'm talking about if you watch. In both of our games together he identified scum within the first Day (one of them being

the

Thesp!). He's frank, doesn't care who's toes he steps on, and he notes minute details. The only problem with this is that his candor makes him an easier mislynch candidate for scum.

In fact, Panacea strikes me as just the type of person to be taken in by a flattering "You're obv town, let's not fight" judgment.

The only thing keeping me from taking offense is the fact that I know you're incorrect.

Andrius: Is he even still in this game? If so I’ve got nothing on him needs to post more.

... You're... reading this game, yeah? -.-

About Lawls's post. I don't like it for it's noncomittment. There's a disconcerting amount of agreement in it, and a lack of real stance on anyone. It seems like he's tuning into the undercurrent of our opinions, rather than offering his own. The post itself feels more like a tool for scumplay to me: as if should an arguement arise and a wagon form on one of the players, he could play it off as his having been on board the whole time. Also,

In one of his posts he mentions that he doesn’t like receiving role pm’s, but this time was happy to receive it as the game meaning the game had started. We can only assume he is telling the truth or that he has a role that is not of just a townie.

Panacea’s reaction when Rayfrost came in could be just that a normal reaction, or one that she has him as a scum buddy.

These just feel so forced, as well as deliciously unhelpful.

5) Lurking for two days with a real excuse isn't even scummy to begin with.

No. But he's at eight days now.

[Panacea]

You said your chattiness got you nightkilled early in a previous game. Does that bother you?

Oh,

definitely

not. It may seem simple-minded, but I was honored. It made me really happy to be the N1 NK, because there was a chance it meant I was a threat to scum. It was being NK'ed in that game that first woke me up to the thought that my talkative nature could actually be used to help.

Your answer has helped. You're very conscious of your chattiness.

Oh, very. How could I not be? It's mentioned as scummy in every game I play. -.-

What types of roles were those?

Vanilla townie and mafia goon.

And these were unsatisfying? Why, if you don't mind my asking?

Have you only played with RayFrost when he was town? Your post seems to analyze him as largely a town asset, his only flaw being that scum mislynch him. Can you envision him as mafia, and what problems this would cause? I'd like to know how you'd evaluate him in that role.

I've only played with him as town, yes. I've read two of his scum games before, but it was for entertainment purposes. I intend to run a Ray-meta over the next two days. I can definitely tell you then.

The only thing keeping me from taking offense is the fact that I know you're incorrect.

The truth value of that statement will be apparent in the fullness of time.

Excellent! Oh, and I'd like to add to the prospect of my being swayed by flattery, or whatever: Ray said I was obv town here. He's told me that before, when both of us were townies.

You pointed out how he isn't paying enough attention to know who's in it or not; is there a pro-scum angle to that move?

Mm, that's a good point... Maybe not. But it's not overly pro-town, either.

Panacea I don't see how my post isn't helping town, you tell me to post more I do, most my thoughts on players I do. Yet you still criticize me for not being helpful enough.

It's not that you're posting, it's

what

you're posting. Maybe it's because I haven't played as town in a while, but I just get a gut scummy vibe (and I make a solid effort to avoid the gut defense, so this is weird) from the way you analyzed each player; it looks like it's consciously supposed to appear more productive than it is. A lot of the logic seems stretched and slightly warped to fit an agenda...

@ Ray: Could you link me to the game in which you played with Lawls, please?

@ Bridges: I don't think I ever addressed this, but it's been bothering me. When Acosmist had mentioned meta-ing me, you promptly asked him what were his conclusions. It's odd to me that you never did so yourself, or offered your own.

[Panacea]

So. . . despite Acosmist's research regarding Panacea's chatty nature, I still find it highly suspicious. Feeling guilty? Why not bury the board with loads and loads of nothing.

Well that's a mite extreme; I wasn't aware that you held that esteemable authority of deeming all of my content as "nothing." I'm not posting spam. I'm fairly certain that all of my posts (though I'll give you the "Welcome, Ray" post and maybe a couple of others) contain at least

some

content.

Actually, I sort of understand. In my first game, a theme game, the mafia discussion (opened postgame) revealed that the mafia nightkilled me because they thought I was a cop. As I was a vanilla townie, this was a pretty good thing. And the town eventually won, so I did my part!

Precisely my sentiments.

My first game was at a location infamous for clever, original roles and lots of flavor. I'd spent considerable time reading old games there before finally signing up. And then I was just a vanilla townie. It wasn't a huge disappointment, and, to be fair, I would have felt overwhelmed if I had had the responsibility of playing a town power role, but it began inculcating a sense of indifference to role PMs in me.

My first game here was as a mafia goon. Perhaps being in the know is less exciting because there's less mystery, but I don't recall being particularly thrilled about that role either.

Oh, wow, that would leave a bad taste. And I've never been a goon, but I'll bet you might have enjoyed scum more as Roleblocker.

I've only played with him as town, yes. I've read two of his scum games before, but it was for entertainment purposes. I intend to run a Ray-meta over the next two days. I can definitely tell you then.

I think that would be useful for several purposes. Some people have brought up the theory that you two might be working together...since I have read some of your and RayFrost's games, I'd be in a position to spot misrepresentations if they pop up.

Yes, I'd planned to meta Ray anyway. It's a matter of finding the time to sit down and do it. We can't all be Acosmists.

@ Bridges: I don't think I ever addressed this, but it's been bothering me. When Acosmist had mentioned meta-ing me, you promptly asked him what were his conclusions. It's odd to me that you never did so yourself, or offered your own.

My gentle prods to people were apparently too subtle. I don't think anyone else is reading your games, which is fine, but making judgments about your quirky posting style without seeing how it's reflected your alignment in previous games is fruitless.

I wouldn't nitpick him for the meta (as I said, it's hard to find the time), but he did promise to do so to prove the existence of the RVS/RQS debate, and then the next he mentioned it was to ask Acosmist what

he'd

found.

And people say my posts and worthy

??????

He's saying that fermi made a pointless, contentless post.

Which he did via a pointless, contentless post. Oh, the irony.

Sorry guys but first and foremost

I am responding to a prod, but I have and will be over the next

2 days

busy with university starting again and my commitment to the frisbee club and other important societies there I will not be active but I shall try and do some reading tonight and report back asap!

This post was made four days ago. We're at over 1/3 of the Day Phase, with three posts by him.

Mod, I know he gave reason for being busy, but is there anything you can do?

Also, I'll have more time tonight to work on my Ray-meta.

[Panacea]

Everyone should set aside a few dozen uninterrupted hours and read the Panacea corpus.

Look, I'm really sorry!! I didn't even know what meta WAS when I started playing, or I might've made some effort to forcibly regulate my posting habits. I know none but two of you can take what I say at face value, but I recommend Newbie 890 for my best townplay and Newbie #879 for my best scumplay. Logically, they're my two most recent, too, so you can get a sense of how I am outside newbie waters.

Seriously, I'm sorry!

[Panacea]

Sorry, y'all, for the lack of my usual activity; this is my first time to do the collegian's spring break dance, so I didn't predict having less MS time on vacation than at school. I'll probably be running on a post a day until I get back to school, but I promise to make them count.

Welcome, Nacho! I read through one of your games once a couple of months back (it was modded by Incognito). Nice. I love the flavor.

What are your thoughts on Acomist's play so far?

One thing I've noticed about scum is that they're less motivated to sniff out the tendencies of other players. I know that to meta me (particularly in my early games) requires much time and effort. At this stage, I see Acosmist as town-invested. (Do fully expect it, though, after I've mentioned this scum-tactic, to be less likely for anyone to neglect meta-attention for much longer. Oh yes. I'm awesome. )

What are your thoughts on my play so far

So far, not overly helpful (no offense. ). I feel that you weren't overly willing to contribute much early on, and when you did (via responses few and far between), the points you brought were somewhat weak and regurgitated. This nature so far has not been indicative of town-interest. Then it seemed as though your posting picked up, but only when pinched by a few other players. Currently I cannot decide if I think you're scum, or if you're an uncoordinated townie acting scummishly enough to provide an easier mislynch for the real scum. Quick! Do something to make up my mind for me! Also, is English your primary language, by chance?

your play= Active lurking and filler. scummy at the least

You think so, Cojin? Because, while I'll give you the variables of Lawls's need to defend himself where you did not need to and his clear lack of content, he still has four posts more than you do (Lawls= 11, Cojin=7). Granted, your points seem to be a lot more thought-out, but you're still not contributing much.

Also, Cojin, would you please set an avatar? I think that's why your lack of posting has escaped me as long as it has. (I semi-consciously tally the pictures, and when too much time passes with an absense of an individual image, it sends off a red flag in my head.)

post #130

*awaits Havingfitz's "overly helpful" judgement.

Panacea's Day 1 activity is amazing; I love her for it.

... Someone

likes

my activity..? Or at the very least doesn't say first that I should be instalynched for it..? ... ... ... This makes me so happy. If we find out you're scum and this is a ploy for Pan-points, I will be most displeased. But thank you.

For one, she's self-conscious as town. She's worried about every little mistake as if it would cause her to be struck down by a modkill... >.>"

Haha, Ray, you got a read on rl Pan!

the difference in meta is so painfully obvious that I'm pretty sure she's picked up on it by now.

... It is? You mean how Acosmist says I'm scattershot scum with Dadaist ramblings and Ray says I'm basket-case town?

ask yourself "If I were scum, would I make a post like this? Why/why not?".

Nacho is such a good SE. He answered Elementary's question beautifully. I would like to add a warning label to the above, though. Remembering my first game, I put a lot more stock in asking myself that question that I should have. The "would I, as scum" question provides the fibers for immensely counter-productive WIFOM knots.

'Night, all!

[Panacea]

First off, I've got very limited time on the computer, and I'm using most of what I have on meta'ing Ray's 86524695785 games. I'll be on later tonight with my verdict (I'm modile right now).

@ Bridges: I'll start making spelling errors to match my Town meta? Lol, you DID meta me, yes? I'm a very proud English major, and I daresay I don't submit a remarkable quantity of spelling errors, whatever my alignment.

[Panacea]

Back! I really am sorry for the lack of more hands-on activity. I swear I'll be back to optimum next week.

Okay. So, here's a little on Town-Ray:

He gets called out a lot on his joking nature (I dun' see how this is scummy, but meh). Ray was Town in Newbie #908, where he was asked on his take on the balance between humor and seriousness in Mafia. He said

And this is a game, seriousness isn't fully needed. Trying at a game is important, but you don't need to be all 'srs bsns' about it.

He knows he's a goofball, and he just values a good time (one of the things I like most about his play) regardless of his allignment. That point doesn't really help in this game, except for in the event his wit is called into question as scummy (as per usual).

As town, Ray is very much unafraid to call out other players for bad moves. I feel this tactic is effective, in that it's just pointed enough to demostrate, without sugar-coating to satisfy the scummish tactic of avoiding confrontation. I've noticed that town-Ray is sharper of tongue (or, well, keyboard?), in that he's less invested in survival or the opinions of other players. This, I believe, has a lot to do with his trademark early Ray mislynch. I also feel that this quote by yabbaguy accurately describes Ray's early Town play:

You're a mad scientist basically, you're trying to do a pro-town by starting discussion by being... anti-town. ( )

Even more support from Ray's response to the aforementioned:

srsly, acting insane makes people attack me. it's awesome.

Ray and I have discussed this concept outside of any games, and I think he's right. In my opinion, when Ray reads a Townie-role pm, he sees an opportunity to speak without the necessary filter of scumplay, and I feel his objective is to point out who scum is early on, make us laugh while he figures it out, and then get lynched for his candor or Killed for the threat he poses scum.

As scum, I would have to borrow Acosmist's play-descriptive words "scattershot" and "smokescreens." He tends to be slightly more chatty as scum, offering more game-related content, as opposed to, well, RayFrostian obscure humor. I think his activity is about the same as town or scum, but he tends to play for more influence as scum. If you pay attention, it'slike his main goal is to (as I mentioned) entertain and keep discussion flowing as town while he's analyzing what's passing to whop out the big guns once he's concluded his assumptions. As scum, though, his main goal becomes one of attention to educating the other players, offering attention shifts and giving himself more credit. I relate to his scum playstyle, in that he very subtly (more effective, ha ha) sneaks more control over the discussion. A minor note: especially in Newbie #880 where he was a Mafia Goon, he was a lot looser with his vote. In fact, I woud go so far as to say that when it seemed one vote didn't flow, he'd slip it off and attach it to another until someone finally did something scummy, and he parked it there.

My conclusion: as I said before, having now run the necessary meta, I am fairly confident that the Ray of #922 is town. Watered down, town Ray has a more devil-may-care, what-you-see-is-what-you-get feel, in that he includes more humor and is a lot more blunt. Scum Ray is a bit more circumspect, with a filter of investment in players' opinions over what he says.

It's going on one am here, so I apologize if this is a bit disjointed. I definitely encourage you all to have a look at Ray's play history. You would think the 5783475894375 games to be tedious, but there is RayFrostian humor to SOME degree in all of his games, so it's not so bad.

Well that settles it for me. . . my next game, I will play entirely differently (by posting, perhaps!).

1) Lol. 2) Except if anyone metas you, they'll catch that comment.

[Panacea]

^ I rest my case.

[Panacea]

Also, I really like these questions of Nacho's, and think we'd all benefit if everyone answered them:

What do you think of a Cojin lynch? Would you be on the lynchwagon? Why/why not?
Which of the players in this game would you not want to be in LyLo with?
What player do you find yourself agreeing with the most?
Why shouldn't we lynch you right now?

1) I'm not overly sure of Cojin right now... He's only slightly above Lawls on my scumdar, and this only because he's only slightly more productive.
2) Bridges.
3) Nacho.
4) a) I haven't claimed. b) There's a lot of time left til deadline.

[Panacea]

No, you're not "abrasive," per se. You're honest. I think it's natural for scum to invest most of their time into staying alive. It's also easy for townies to fall into that trap, despite a much larger team and the one-for-all win condition. Ray, you just never do as a townie. Seems like you use your own (typically) inevitable death as a tool for the survivors to get reactions.

Intriguingly, you also don't slip into this behavior as scum, case in point being your scumgame in which you devoted a lot of your time into hardcore distancing to lead town off the trail of your partner, knowing you'd soon be lynched.

[Panacea]

3) Panacea [/personalbias]

Lol. I wanted to avoid the now broken-record "Pan and Ray are friends and must therefore be buddies!" attack.

Did I say that aloud? Alas, I'd better brace myself for it again, then, hm?

[Panacea]

Ray, on the Quintastic One subject: is there an alt involved in that link to his knockout? Otherwise, I don't understand the connection to you. ^^*

[Panacea]

Read the post.

abrasive players including RayFrost & Gayle bit

Oh, wow. Epic fail. I can't believe I missed that.

Use to sure like to talk a lot between yourselves don't you ;D

Well, we usually message each other. But unless I'm wrong about the rules of talk outside the game, we can't do that anymore til the game ends or we both die. So this works for me. ;D

[Panacea]

Back, responding to prod. Post to follow. Sorry for my absence.

[Panacea]

Again, I'm sorry. After posting so little before due to vacation time, my laptop started having connectivity issues. It's in the shop now, and my friend is letting me use his laptop for the week til mine's out of the shop. Anyway, I'm back at uni now.

Havingfitz: Post #185: Nice catch on Lawls's discrepancies.

Tally the number of people he's cleared or semi-cleared as town in this game versus the number of people he's pointed out as scum.

Then tell me what that means to you.

You and Ray debated this to death enough shortly thereafter, so I feel it unnecessary to re-visit. I do, however, agree with Ray about how mentioning that someone is leaning town isn't clearing them, and it's a mite extreme to accuse him of doing so.

unvote, FoS: cojin

because I'm way too lazy to check the vote count

Calling someone out post-Panacea...hm....thoughts, Ms. Panacea?

You mean it

isn't

obvious that I was going "WATCH ME ATTEMPT TO PERFECTLY MATCH THE META THAT PANACEA PUT FORTH IN SUCH AN OBVIOUS AND DELIBERATE FASHION THAT IT IS RIDICULOUS" in those posts?

Oh, guys, come on. I'm not a total imbecile! I saved a couple of Ray's other scumtells for later. So far this was my first intensive meta, and I don't really think I like the practice much. But I can guess enough to know that inclusion of

all

of my observations can easily result in a meta-match. Give me some credit, guys.

What I noticed was that RayFrost wasn't calling out scum at all. So, the negation of the consequent is true. Modus tollens, RayFrost is not town.

But maybe I wasn't clear enough. I said he tends to

locate

scum early on, but he does it pretty privately (remember, entertaining everyone while he figures it out?). But nowhere did I say he finds scum in a handful of posts and calls them out the instant he does so. Better?

Panacea has a skewed judgment of you because she's played with you, and she's magnifying the importance of your particular play patterns in those games. I'm not as concerned that you haven't been calling out scum, because I don't expect that from town RayFrost. I am slightly bothered by the fact that you've been clearing so many people, because that's an easy thing for scum to do, with their insider knowledge.

Panacea, time to offer your thoughts on this.

My judgment though isn't based solely on our previous play; I did spend quite a bit of time meta-ing the hell out of him. I feel that he is Town in this game. That's subject to change, of course. But your request that I meta him and report my findings

opened up the door

to calling him out for a meta-match (this, by the way, is part of the reason I'm developing a low opinion of meta). So Acosmist, I'm curious. You asked my findings. What were yours?

There are really only 2 problems I have with the TownPan case. 1) You cleared her mostly based on either past experiences with her (which we have to take your word for), or based on the weakness of a case so early in the game

Actually, you don't have to "take his word for" it. You could meta me, y'know. Seems to be a dangerous fad in this game, but we know at least one person has.

[Whoa, Acosmist totally said the same thing later, almost verbatim!!]

[And then Nacho explains. Ah, well, better leave it for the record.]

As for my second choice, it is a tie between. . . Acosmist and RayFrost. The sudden hostility is. . . odd. You were both doing what you were doing, and then doing it with anger

I concur here. I also perceived this as town-on-town. I know you both had good points, but while the argument became the center of the game, I think the beating of the dead horse threw us a bit off track.

That was just an example of a possible meta and wasn't intended to be taken literally. I still haven't meta'd you and I can't determine exactly what it is yet. Also, very interesting that you consider English Major = no spelling errors. I know that math teachers make just as many, if not more, careless errors, than other people.

Ah, my apologies; I did indeed take it literally. And very well; I feel that the fact that my primary study is that of the English language does in fact prevent me to a degree from submitting spelling, transitional, syntactical, applied, grammatical, systematic, and/or coherence errors, or otherwise disjointed sentences.

Panacea holds the key to a number of things, especially RayFrost. We need her posting.

Please let me know of anything at all that I missed?

t also bothers me that Panacea is now busy when her opinions are vital to the resolution of this RayFrost business.

Shall I include the number for the DTV help desk? Honestly, though. You meta'd me. Town OR scum, you have to know I'd have at least told y'all I would be back if I could get online at all.

I do quadruple posts rather than super long posts, as I personally feel that they are more palatable. It helps make posts understandable when each post has a specific focus.

I really like this. I might incorporate this, but I think Acosmist would have a stroke.

Eureka!!! The end!! I did mostly responses to questions directed at me in my absence. I'll provide more analysis tomorrow. Also, lemme check the vote real quick...

[Panacea]

SE guidance.

Lawls, I've already mentioned that I'm unsure as to whether or not you're scum or blundering town. Not certain enough either way to vote at this time. However, ten pages and most of the D1 phase is NOT a good time to sit idly back and observe. Let's say you're definitely town. a) Other than a very lurky read, you've given us zilch to go on for D2. b) In the supremely unlikely case that scum kill you Tonight, you'd have wasted a perfectly good Townie slot for an entire Day phase.

Open Question: I'd imagine that I CAN scope out his other game when his role is revealed, right? Even if it's still going?

Other than that, I'm just going to hang in and wait for Acosmist to let me know if there's anything I missed.

[Panacea]

Just to clarify here, this havingfitz discussion has me quoting myself a lot, with his comments in bold right after my quotes...so if it looks like I'm quoting him, I'm usually quoting both of us. Try to keep up.

I try to avoid doing that, for this reason.


First off, let me say that currently I am about dead-even between Lawls and Cojin. On one hand, I feel the Cojin case to have quite a bit of substance for maliciousness. On the other, Lawls

has

been acting in a manner harmful to town. I'm not really sold on the idea that Lawls will post more later as being worthy enough to warrant giving him a pass today and WIFOMing ourselves into next week Tomorrow if we do. I suppose then that I'm

leaning

more toward a Lawls lynch for that reason (though I probably wouldn't rue a Cojin-lynch, either, quite frankly), but I'm one of those people who believes in milking Day phases for all they're worth. When one of them does something to break the justification-tie, I'll let y'all know. I was pretty certain I'd already voted Lawls a long time ago (beyond RV) and the last count was off, hence the comment at the bottom of my return-to-game wall. I can't find it in my iso, though, so I guess I was wrong.

the repeated "gibberish" dismissals were flat wrong. And I'll call you on that.

I'll second that.

I CAN NOT FOR THE LIFE OF ME FIX THIS QUOTE ISSUE:

Sorry, I didn't know the # of votes on cojin, so I didn't vote him.

But the Cojin case didn't arrive until waaay after you killed the Pan wagon, and you didn't really do a whole lot to offer any substitute suspects before then.

Someone else noticed! We'll see what Panacea thinks of that... [/quote ]

Sigh. Panacea finds it questionable. I'll give you that. I'll await his explanation before reading too terribly much much into it, but I will do so.

Depends on the type of lurking. EF's doesn't bother me at all because he's posting consistently, and he's posting content when he posts (usually). Later in the game, my mind may change about that but I hope that when there is more to talk about, he'll have more to say.

Everyone answer this, the varying opinions are good (diversity is strength! War is peace, etc.).

Expressions like "a mite extreme" don't express much. I agree that Ray didn't clear all of the people he picked out as more or less townie, but the point is valid - 4 positive judgments, 2 of them strong, before the first negative judgment was rendered.

Elaborated as such, I can accept this point. I was questioning it as a potential tactic to discredit him, which is why I visited it.

Reading that little gem of his again, I was struck by how defensive it sounds. What do you think? Note that I originally wanted to have your thoughts on it, and that was all I wanted - I saw a blip on the radar, thought I might be making a mountain out of a molehill, and wanted your opinion to correct a possible mistake. And then Ray freaked out.. A little bit. A slight freak-out. A mite extreme, isn't it?

Given his history, no, I wouldn't say it was overly defensive. Mainly because I can see his point on meta-ing, and how it's too easy to match a meta (or a meta-newb player's notation of a meta). Where as I've learned in this game it works if you do it correctly, it's a delicate art. If you fail, you fail hard. I don't particularly like the risks of doing it incorrectly.

How is locating scum privately the same as pointing out who scum is? Pointing out is an outward-directed, communicative activity.

Now, if you weren't clear enough, as you seem to think, then you must realize that this entire discussion was caused by the lack of clarity in your expression. These aren't my standards for recognizing a townie RayFrost, they're yours; I'm simply pointing out that your standard as stated does not speak well of RayFrost. Are you now saying you misspoke?

I think I have an idea of the communication breakdown (Led Zep fans at the table? ) here, and if I'm correct here, I can see where this would be my fault. I should have had more insight here, and I apologize: What is your idea of "early on" as I've stated it? (I hope you'll forgive me for hearing your answer first? Gotta be careful, y'see.)

My findings: There is more than meets the eye about RayFrost in his games.

He's Salvador Dali with a keen scumdar

. It's easy to dismiss what he says, and, to be fair, he seems to have trouble building a coherent case, but he seems to have a decent hitrate. That's RayFrost as town. As scum, he plays up to the chaotic posting style. Where town RayFrost conceals insight behind madness, scum RayFrost uses misdirection merely to confuse. It's hard to tell the difference. It's certainly not such a profound difference that I thought your comments about his town behavior were accurate.

(First, LOVE the bolded; it's perfect!) Maybe I should try to be less concise in my metas in future, and follow more of this guideline. I just feel that the way I did it gives too much away. If that is the case, Ray, I apologize. Meta-ing Ray (since, as I've said, I feel that if I was 5784974 times better at MS and wittier, I'd play like RayFrost), I would see his avatar and try to imagine what I'd say in his position as scum and what I'd say as town. The amount of times it'd hit correctly was enough to lead me to conclude that in this very delicate situation, I'd have a decent gut-feel for Ray's alignment. Maybe that was a bad idea, I don't know. But the way we play lends itself to this meta-tactic, I believe.

do you understand how your meta of RayFrost led to quite a bit of this?

I'll need that answer first, but in the meantime, have I mentioned that I'm rapidly losing respect for meta?

I remember reading a game where a certain very annoying person would just post every ADHD-addled thought in his brain in a separate post.

I totally think I know who you're talking about, if it was an MS player. Should I ever receive him in a modlist for a game, I will modkill him. No lie.

The game has since finished with an uber awesome town win where scum were lynched D2 and then D3.

Thank you; I know if we had asked Lawls to tell us we'd be waiting for weeks.

Ray: Thank you!
Acosmist: Ha ha, excellent.

[Panacea]

EBWOP:

Depends on the type of lurking. EF's doesn't bother me at all because he's posting consistently, and he's posting content when he posts (usually). Later in the game, my mind may change about that but I hope that when there is more to talk about, he'll have more to say.

Everyone answer this, the varying opinions are good (diversity is strength! War is peace, etc.).

I don't like it at all. He's reminded us a few times that he's a newbie, which don't like as a rule, and it always seems he posts just enough to be trailing along without committing too far and then skipping away. It sets off my scumdar, but I'll check him out more after the Night's events.

[Panacea]

Elementary, your post gives me a feeling you're frustrated town. Would you agree?

*I have played Mafia elsewhere a few times.

Right, I took note of this. I've had a few encounters with people who gravitated here from other sites, and though I began on MS, I have it on good authority that it's a bit of a shock to immigrate here. This, and the fact that you've been offering relevant observations (whatever their frequency or quantity), and that you expressed what I believe to be a sincere desire to build more off of N1 than D1 are the reasons I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt. (Note: Elementary's promise to contribute more later holds more water with me than Lawls's because I feel he'll be more inclined to keep his promise than Lawls will.)

Also on that note, Elementary, thank you for the play-by-play list of differences between your past experiences and what you've seen here in this community. That helps me a lot.

*Rather than developing in such a fashion, this particular game has developed into a collection of experienced players saying little of importance, but doing so ad nauseam,

I will agree with you here. I'm usually not one for such immense walls of text; the occasional, sure, but I'm alarmed by how they seem to keep getting longer and longer with no way of cutting out what I've got. You'll notice that a lot of it's an ongoing discussion between two players. I will ask that in D2, we all try to avoid this. It's good to hop into conversations that don't concern you, but who wants to when you've got paragraphs and paragraphs to skim through? One-on-one discussions aren't going to help us too much, I don't think. Not to mention that Phate will have a helluva time finding replacements for this game in future (if we need them) when there's not a snowball's chance a Newbie will want to wade through this.

with a mod who cannot count to three in order to get an accurate vote count and who does not respond to PMs.

Hahahaha. Ha. Ha. Ha. I'll keep this restrained and sweet. He is your mod. You're obligated to respect him. If you have a problem with the way he is running things and you can't get a PM, take it to the list mod or keep it to yourself. Do not whine about/insult him in thread. It's disrespectful as hell, and I would shed no tears if he modkilled you for the way you just said that.

Please, for the love of God, explain to me in clear and concise terms how three weeks of “lurking,” “scumdar,” and “answer me” work.

If he is scum (and I don't like that you're so adamant that our D1 lynch won't be), the interaction will possibly grant insight to his scumbuddy.

I am in this game as much to learn as I am to play. Everyone else, however, is here just to play, not to assist or to guide, and I do not feel this game is the proper forum for such mindsets.

You're absolutely right. I will try to do better.

But if (and, I am willing to bet, when) we lynch a townie this first Day, I fear it will be because we were essentially bludgeoned into doing so by one of the players who talks and talks and talks without saying anything. It could happen innocently, to be sure, but I predict that is how it plays out. And, should I be shown to be wrong, I will gladly eat my words. Winning is better than being a correct pessimist.

Meh. You feel that way, that's cool. I like to completely devote D1 to getting a feel for players. But since scum havena't had but a short amount of time to plan things in pre-game (oh, wait. This pre-game was a bit long...), this is a good place to come back to later once one scummy is dead and we're trying to find a buddy. Does that make sense?

[Panacea]

Oh, and happy scumday, Bridges!!

[Panacea]

Whoa, Elementary, you need to calm yourself down. NO WHERE did I say I wanted a townie dead. I first tried to introduce you to the fact that you were in violation of the rules, and second noted that I wouldn't blame the Mod if he modkilled you. You're most DEFINITELY exaggerating, and I recommend taking twelve deep breaths before you post.

Personally, I'm reading Elementary's meltdown as (again) frustrated town, albeit postal, irritable town. Nacho, what makes you think it's not?

[Panacea]

if he was town, he would be angry at you for trying to get him, an innocent townie, killed. He would be angry, but definitely not "bored stiff".

But I

didn't

try to get him killed. How can that even be read from the statement:

It's disrespectful as hell, and I would shed no tears if he modkilled you for the way you just said that.

"I

would

shed no tears

if

he modkilled you." I didn't say "Hey, mod, you should kill him!!" I said if he did (which, by the way, he has the right to do as mod of a player in violation of the listed rules), I wouldn't be too upset. Elementary's made it abundantly clear that he's not enjoying himself here. When he has posted (I'll not get into his activity), he's pretty much just complained about having to read and about being bored the whole time.

In anthropological terms, Elementary, you're suffering from naive realism, in which you feel the practices of the community you're being introduced to are substandard. It's affecting what you do or don't learn. This is Mafiascum.net. If you're so unhappy in this game that you're willing to whine about it all game, replace out before you get yourself modkilled for being so annoyingly bitter.

I specifically mentioned that I would not change my vote without a good reason.

But you didn't

have

a good reason. You pounced on an obvious misunderstanding (obvious because it's so exaggerated as to not even suit my words) in a manner that had me laughing more than the comedy I was watching when I read it.

[Panacea]

What if you yourself had put your vote on Lawls (instead of being still uncommitted after so long) believing you were only putting him at L-1, based on the published vote count, when in fact you ended up bring about his lynching and the end of the Day?

Sorry, I thought this was hypothetical. It wouldn't have happened. Mods make mistakes; they correct them when they do. Call me a foolish optimist, but I trust the system. All you had to do was:

Mod, I think there was an issue with the vote count.

You didn't have to be so impudent about it.

1.) Town would be upset if they just lost one of their members in a manner which was not at all necessary.
2.) My being modkilled because I mentioned a documented problem and followed up in a non-diplomatic fashion would be not at all necessary. ("Justified under the rules" is different than "necessary" in this context; this type of death would have been easily avoidable and a waste of a role.)
3.) Panacea admits she would NOT however be upset if this were to happen.

Therefore. . . Panacea must not be town.

-.- Panacea is town who absolutely adores this website and has endured your "MS is so disorganized, you all talk so much, on my other game we do it this way.." attitude all game. Forgive me if my win condition is being threatened by a definite longing to be short one player who's

clearly

unhappy with the game.

(And when I switched my vote to you, you got pretty defensive about it. Everyone, take note.)

Ummm... This is one of those moments where I wonder if I'm reading the same game. Your vote is based on misrepresentation.

And my surly style is exactly that; I am certain you could understand, having as chatty a style of your own as you do.

Sure, I can understand it. You won't make it here long with that attitude, but I can understand it.

[Panacea]

9 players are in this game.
2 players were involved in this little catalyst (Elementary and myself).
2 players more have offered their feedback (Nacho and RayFrost).
1 MOD has offered his opinion.

Where are the other 5 of you?

The mod's offered his insight before over half our players.

[Panacea]

Oh my... dear God... I have forty-five minutes. Can I do this..? Forgive me if I cut off about halfway through?

No offense, but I really don't like the flavor of this particular game. Just a side note. We need to lighten up.

@ Havingfitz: We got two new votes in a short period of time there. Just thought you'd all have something to say about it.

On the other, Lawls has been acting in a manner harmful to town.

Do you infer that he's mafia from that, or do you infer that he has to go anyway? I don't think the math favors lynching a townie unless the harm he does is pretty severe.

Except for the tentative RV's of which I've taken part, I tend to play my votes close to my chest. If, one day from deadline we have some sort of a breakeven between the two primary candidates (well, at the time I said that), those would be the justifications for giving a vote of which I'm not particularly confident. The pro-Lawls-lynch says he's not being too terribly helpful, and we might all just regret not lynching him later. If it's got to be

somebody

, I might choose that route. I don't know yet.

Well, just a sec. In my last game, Thesp argued that a player with a vote left by the end of the Day would do best to cast it somewhere to move the game. He had some pretty good points. Later I learned he was scum... I should ask him about that.

the fact that he railed at me instead of at you feeds the narrative that RayFrost doesn't have the heart to go after you.

Did he, though? His first post after my observations of his play was a joke about how he could easily match his meta. I mean, I think he addressed it, but just a little less strongly, because he (correctly) judged that I could already figure out as much on my own. You were more vocal, so he was more vocal, boiled down. That's how I see it, anyway.

I think I have an idea of the communication breakdown (Led Zep fans at the table? Very Happy) here, and if I'm correct here, I can see where this would be my fault. I should have had more insight here, and I apologize: What is your idea of "early on" as I've stated it? (I hope you'll forgive me for hearing your answer first? Gotta be careful, y'see.)

I get the sense that you strongly disagree with me here, but you're still being apologetic about what you think is largely my mistake. I also think it is highly unlikely you intentionally did that to match a meta, as it's very subtle how tolerant you're being. Interesting.

No, I just think I see what the problem is now. I'm sorry: I'm just (annoyingly, as I've been told) polite to a fault. I do think the mistake was mine. "Early on" in my context had a broader meaning: D1, to be exact. Let's say Ray is lynched Today/ NK'ed Tonight. I would not be surprised if later in the game it was revealed that one or both of the scum were outed by Ray Today. It just happens that way.

So your gut says he's town, and your gut has a good hitrate (at least with RayFrost)? I just want that clarified.

Grr.

Yes,

I suppose that's a correct statement. (

DISLIKE

meta!)

You're losing respect [for meta] already? We have no dead players yet.

No, for the problems it can present. I've stated I believe Ray is town; I feel like if he had a scumhunting strategy, I could have jeopardized it.

K, I'll take this back up later. Dinner time!

[Panacea]

Pan: "Oh my God... He replied before I could finish responding to the

first

set..!"

Side note: Did anyone else have to seriously fight the urge to quote Acosmist's

entire

first post..? Just to be a prat?

Frampton comes alive? No one? Are you all kids or something?

Nineteen, but I do know the reference. "Don't stand alone; you might turn to stone. I wish there was a pill for that; you're on your own." There were a lot (let me repeat a

lot

) of other things that needed my attention.

You, RayFrost, havingfitz, and I have been the ones most deeply involved in the "walls of text." You and I have gone back and forth, RayFrost and I have gone back and forth, and havingfitz and I have gone back and forth. There are more than two people doing this. Further, the walls of text have addressed other players as well.

I'm sorry. Big surprise, but that was another bad wording on my part. (English major.

Freshman

English major. ^^*) I mean these walls of text tend to be between two players

at a time

. As long as we're turning over new leaves, I promise to hereafter devote a lot more time to making sure the messages I'm sending can be received with no trouble.

Furthermore, I think text WALLS should be kept at a lower number; if only because I think our lurkers are getting by quite easily between them.

Speaking of,

Cojin,

WHERE IS YOUR DANGED AVI???

No tears? None at all?

Meh, okay, so a little... Once my Defend-MS.net-at-All-Costs reflex faded a bit, I realized I lost my temper and was a bit harsh. Sorry, Elementary.

You did say you would shed no tears. Total indifference?

No, not total indifference. I've mentioned before that I put a large value on enjoying the game. Why would anyone want to play if it was all serious? Ha ha, when I was scum last game, I convinced my buddy to keep a player around on the pretext of how much fun he was.

Would you shed no tears because it wouldn't be a loss to EF, as he's bored? What about the impact on your win condition?

I'm one of those "If you can't respect what the Romans do, get yer scrawny tail out of Rome" people. Elementary's previous attitude, in my opinion, was threatening my win condition.

(For the record, I'm not sold on Nacho's points. I stand by my aggravated town sentiment from earlier. I think that question was asked somewhere in the... well, in Acosmist's post. )

:/ "I do not think [naive realism] means what you think it means."

Anthropology midterm was today. From my textbook, wherein the traveling anthropologist can be compared to the wandering Mafia player:

"

Naive realism

is the belief that people everywhere see the world the same way... If an ethnographer fails to control his or her own naive realism, inside cultural meanings will certainly be overlooked."

In legal writing, they teach people to avoid using words like "clearly" because they just conceal an inability to argue the point. If something really is clear, it doesn't need to be pointed out that it's clear. We get that the sky is blue. That's clear. What an attorney usually means when he says that something is "clear" is that it's not clear and an entire week of searching Westlaw didn't find him the right case to prove his point.

Noted, with the understanding that I rebel at the notion of word taboo.

He just outlined the logic, and it checks out.

I fail to see his point. If I'd expressed a

desire

to see him killed before Phate caught on, maybe. But I was expressing a potential response to the situation

after the fact

, should he be modkilled. I anticipated the Mod's leniency (owing to the fact nicety to newbies seems to trump mod rights in the newbie threads). But I wouldn't take it to the list mod if he hadn't granted a pardon. *shrug*

Whew. I need a break. Acosmist, please please please do not reply before I finish?

[Panacea]

We're lacking in Rayness... *pines*

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls... Dyin' time's here.

Listen all! This is the truth of it. Fighting leads to killing, and killing gets to warring. And that was damn near the death of us all. Look at us now! Busted up, and everyone talking about hard rain! But we've learned, by the dust of them all... Bartertown learned. Now, when men get to fighting, it happens here! And it finishes here! Two men enter; one man leaves.

Thank you.

Well, you said Lawls had been acting contrary to the town's interests. Do you infer he's mafia from that? That's what I want cleared up.

No, not yet. I kind of think he may be sincerely just... erm... let's say scummy by nature? Whoa, I need to check out that finished game!

So it occurs to me when I realize I've totally forgotten about Lawls in all this (and he's not helped me remember by not being present *cough cough*) that that could very well have been the point. Hmm...

Well, just a sec. In my last game, Thesp argued that a player with a vote left by the end of the Day would do best to cast it somewhere to move the game. He had some pretty good points. Later I learned he was scum... I should ask him about that.

Is this comment directed at anyone in particular? It reads as if you're thinking out loud.

Open, my apologies: is that accurate? I need to ask him that, or if it was a scum tactic...

unvote, FoS: cojin

because I'm way too lazy to check the vote count

Calling someone out post-Panacea...hm....thoughts, Ms. Panacea?

You mean it

isn't

obvious that I was going "WATCH ME ATTEMPT TO PERFECTLY MATCH THE META THAT PANACEA PUT FORTH IN SUCH AN OBVIOUS AND DELIBERATE FASHION THAT IT IS RIDICULOUS" in those posts?

Also, if you are going to ask somebody else their thoughts, you better be prepared to share your own.

What do

you

think about it, bub?

I think it could be something scummy as much as it could not be. Yes, he could have been matching the meta I laid out, or he could be acting on his own play patterns. I'd give you more than that, but I think it's far too delicate to judge standalone, you know?

Grr. Yes, I suppose that's a correct statement. ( DISLIKE meta!)

What do you dislike about it? Like I said, there are two sides to it...

Have you considered the thought (ha ha, I'm so sure you have) that setting up townies to meta each other could be a decent scum tactic? For instance, let's say everyone lynches me tonight, and I flip scum. You meta'd me, with the conclusion of a more-likely-town-than-scum feel. It wouldn't be too hard to lead a mislynch on you D2 if you're town. Paranoia? Probably. This thought leads me back to Bridges, who first mentioned meta, but never applied it. Small point, but at least it's in black and white (pixels).

@ Bridges: What's your favorite way to treat a scumbuddy?

Not sure what the danger is - scum will avoid being called out by RayFrost?

I suppose, yes. Now I imagine he has to change it up a little. Sorry, Ray.

Votecount
Lawls - 2 (Cojin, Acosmist)
Cojin - 2 (RayFrost, havingfitz)
Acosmist - 1 (Lawls)
Panacea - 1 (ElementaryFermion)
Elementary Fermion - 1 (Nachomamma8)
Nachomamma8 - 1 (BridgesAndBaloons)

Not Voting - 1 (Panacea)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch

[Panacea]

You know what I can't play games on this site big step up from where I usually play.

Unvote Vote Lawls

Please withdraw your vote? I'd very much like you to hang around MS. This is a great place to learn. I'm sorry this game has been a newbie-nightmare. Will you please consider replacing out here and trying one more newbie game before you give up on this site? I promise it can be a fun place. Or hang in a while longer? Elementary already woke us up to the need to make this game more newbie-friendly.

[Panacea]

You know what I can't play games on this site big step up from where I usually play.

Unvote Vote Lawls

I am inclined to think this self-vote is more town throwing in the towel than it is scum throwing it in.

Still happy with my Cojin vote.

This is how I read it. As a rule, I tend to find Kamakazi votes scummy, but as far as my personal experience goes, Lawls's breaks the mold:

- He has what, two votes on him? (Mobile- can't check.) If there was more pressure and we knew it was inevitable, I'd be more worried about his motivations.

- His reasoning, his own abilities, better suits town-intentions (as much as a townie going suicidal can) than if he'd said "Well, you're gonna lynch me anyway!"

- Eheh. I considered leaving this game, too.

[Panacea]

Why? Was it the wall posts?

Partially, somewhat because this is the most decidedly unenjoyable game of which I've ever taken part (despite valiant efforts to the contrary, lest I neglect credit). But mostly it was drek like this:

Oh...and

FoS on Panacea

for piggy-backing on the town feel some have towards Lawls self vote.

[Panacea]

Cojin... for real..? What's all this business about meta..? Thanks for getting the avi!!

Elementary: Thank you for providing my argument to your case against me in your post. Professional, efficient, and it saves me from having to do so.

I would like to add, however, that winning isn't my primary desire when it comes to playing Mafia; it's that everyone has a good time and learns a bit while they're at it. Abiding by that sentiment lends to the following logical end: if you had been removed from the game at that point when you were

clearly

unhappy, you would have been removed from a bad time, and your negativity would have been removed from the game. We could still have gotten in our lynch Today, and have the emotional air cleansed a bit, to boot. I'm glad you seem to be having more fun now, though.

This all makes me think that my option one above is what is going on with him.

I concur with option 1, reasons stated above.

Oh, this is interesting!:

Panacea has been the only character to expressly state that she would not mind the town's win condition being made more difficult.

For what little it may be worth, we could also, in a final act of desperation, just lynch Lawls, saving the mod from needing to find yet another replacement

You said in the same post that you're leaning toward Lawls being town. Is this so different from what I said, if you think he's a townie?

Also as an aside: I pulled the "We should just lynch the non-contributor and save the mod the trouble" stunt as scum myself.

Your position was untenable.

I strongly disagree.

That

position, however is indeed untenable.

Say someone asks me whether I like him. I insist, "Yes, of course I like you. You're a great person." And then that person follows up: "What if I fell into a well? How would you feel?" And I reply, "I just wouldn't give a damn. I hope you don't fall into a well, and I sure won't push you into one, but please do not expect me to care one bit if you do."

The difference would be, however, that Elementary would have hopped headfirst into the hole, not fallen. And I didn't say I wouldn't help him up; I'd hope the headache taught him to avoid hole-diving.

You think that person might doubt my insistence that I like him?

Perhaps. But isn't it a sign that I have hope for him that I expressed a hope he'd learned the lesson?

All right...it's just good to make sure that kind of thing isn't lost in the hundreds of posts.

It won't be.

He's your top suspect. I...I figured you thought that meant he was worth the debate.

You know what? That's a really good point. Havingfitz?

I'm not as sold on Panacea as before, but she's an open book and will screw up if she's scum.

... Ouch..!

EF is on fire lately. He was a bored and indifferent townie, now he's an angry, bored, posting-machine townie. Any argument that "If he's not having fun he should be replaced/modkilled" is moot, as he's definitely into the game now. If you think what he's done is scummy, all right, that's something different. I am happy to have him in the game.

I agree. I'm glad Elementary wasn't modkilled after all.

Is there a bright line difference between not really having anything of substance to say and "lurking"?

Yes, there is. Passive lurking is what's been mentioned most in this game: it entails the process of just skating by without offering many posts. Active lurking is where a player contributes regularly to a game quantity-wise, but really doesn't offer much analysis. Simplified:
Passive lurking = some info, few posts.
Active lurking = little info, many posts.

If everyone in this game is replaced, is it the same game?

If a tree falls in a forest and there's no one there to hear it..? It would be, because all the roles would be passing to predecessors. Lawls's replacement will be an extension of Lawls's slot.

[Panacea]

Honestly?

Yes. Have you not been honest thus far?

It'll be extremely hard to find replacements for this game because of how long your posts are, and as a townie, that isn't playing to your win condition.

Nacho's 100% correct.

And I used "however" like three times in my last post, and "hope" twice in the same sentence. I'm sorry. Posting before a night out.

[Panacea]

No, I still think he's right. We seem to get easily bogged down in slight issues centered on select players. During this whole "Pan's a newbie-thread daykilling vigilante" debacle, where have been Bridges, Cojin, and (sigh) Ray? And their potential buddy-interaction?

I don't think cutting down on the smaller TELLS is a good idea, Nacho. If we've got good scum (the if was cursory. No way this game doesn't), it'll probably be the minute slips that sink them. Typically with small tells this early, you'd list them for future perusals later in the game, where they'd be hammered out for days. I think we're just skipping a step and doing it early.

Executive summary: Acosmist, I'd suggest cutting back just a little on the tinier tells (by all means, bring them up!). Nacho, I think telling him to stop with the lesser tells altogether is very crippling.

[Panacea]

Wait, wait, wait. Lawls, are you replacing out or not? Because if you're still hanging around, I don't see why you can't try and clear up a few things.

[Panacea]

Oh ha ha ha ha we killed someone? Wait did we? This game is utter craziness to me lol! Heh ha hai huh ha heh human.

[Panacea]

Oh ha ha ha ha we killed someone? Wait did we? This game is utter craziness to me lol! Heh ha hai huh ha heh human.

I don't think we did.

I think we have 12 hours and nothing is happening :/

Did you just post drunk? That reads different than anything of yours I've ever read before.

Oh...

Oh!

Oh God. Not drunk. I am so sorry, everyone. Oh, wow... I didn't realize I'd posted last night...

Just let me wake up a little more and I'll be back with actual contribution...

[Panacea]

Acosmist, it seems like you're quite gung-ho, not necessarily for a Lawls lynch, but for the diffusion of a Cojin one. All things aside, Lawls's "Oh, wait, never mind" return to the game strikes me as a

whole

helluva lot scummier than a cookie-cut request for replacement. I have to wonder if his intention might have been to buy some time all along?

Lawls, how do you feel about that?

Acosmist, what exactly makes you think, not necessarily that Lawls is scum, but that Cojin isn't? Is it primarily Havingfitz's responses, and if so shouldn't your vote then be on Havingfitz..?

[Panacea]

Pan1cea if you want to risk a power role lynch you will vote me but thats up to you.

*blinks and glances around the table* Why are you only talking to me?

And if you're a PR why on earth did you just D-1 claim..? Unless I'm mistaken, you're at L-2, and I didn't say anything about voting you...

[Panacea]

Wow, Mod! That was up for what, three minutes before you clipped on the vote count? Nice!

[Panacea]

Pan, stop sucking up to the mod >.>

... It was a really fast posting of a vote count. -.- Are you familiar with the art of the compliment?

Reading #908.

[Panacea]

I was just messing with you, no seriousness intended.

Oh, I'm sorry, Nacho!

First off... Eek... The Cojin business has me nervous as hell. We're either one vote away from lynching scum, or from lynching doc... No one has counterclaimed his doc claim. The only way for a scum-Cojin and his partner to know that there's a Doc in-game would be to know 1) if there's a Roleblocker or not (which they do), and 2) if there is a Cop or not (which, through my reread, I cannot see how they could yet). With that in mind, a false Cojin-doc claim is exponentially ballsy. I just don't see it from scum.

Also, my gut tells me this isn't a VT claim, either. No breadcrumbs (that I can see) this far into the game in which he could have invested.

I'd prefer we not lynch him today; if there isn't a Roleblocker in-game, I want Cojin's protect before they NK him Tonight. (Sorry, Cojin! If we don't lynch you and you really are doc, chances are good you'll be taking one for the team Tonight. )

:arrow: But! There is the business about no counterclaim. We do have players away from the table. I suggest that we do not hammer him until we've heard what they have to say (provided they come back before deadline). Also, is there a chance that, because Cojin is so close to the noose anyway, that the real doc might just be banking on us lynching him so he can stay hidden into the game? After all, the counterclaim serves as an outlet with which to lynch the liar while outing the real PR... If they think he's going to die anyway, why out themselves?

Oh, WIFOM...

[Panacea]

First off... Eek... The Cojin business has me nervous as hell. We're either one vote away from lynching scum, or from lynching doc... No one has counterclaimed his doc claim. The only way for a scum-Cojin and his partner to know that there's a Doc in-game would be to know 1) if there's a Roleblocker or not (which they do), and 2) if there is a Cop or not (which, through my reread, I cannot see how they could yet). With that in mind, a false Cojin-doc claim is exponentially ballsy. I just don't see it from scum.

There are scenarios where there can be RBers without a Doc and Doc's without a RB. If Cojin is scum...whether there is a RB or not...there would be no way of knowing for sure if there is a Doc. Either way...there's a 50% chance for scum to claim Doc and not get counterclaimed. Cojin is a L-1 now, and iirc was at L-2 when he claimed, so there is nothing to lose for scum to claim Doc. They either get lucky and not get countered because there is no Doc...or they get countered...get lynched like the scum the predominance of town thought they were...and scum gets to then get rid of the town PR that countered the Doc fakeclaim.

Right, sorry; the 50% chance of doc-certainty is what I was starting to drive at.

Also, my gut tells me this isn't a VT claim, either. No breadcrumbs (that I can see) this far into the game in which he could have invested.

Well...why would it be a VT claim if it's a Doc claim? What do you mean it's not a VT claim? Do you mean it's not a VT claiming Doc?

Yes, I do. I don't think Cojin is a VT claiming Doc.

I'd prefer we not lynch him today; if there isn't a Roleblocker in-game, I want Cojin's protect before they NK him Tonight.

What do you mean you want Cojin's protect before they NK him?

Well, that depends on the NK process, I suppose. If the Doc protects a player in the same Night phase scum kills them, does the protect still hold?

:arrow: But! There is the business about no counterclaim. We do have players away from the table. I suggest that we do not hammer him until we've heard what they have to say (provided they come back before deadline). Also, is there a chance that, because Cojin is so close to the noose anyway, that the real doc might just be banking on us lynching him so he can stay hidden into the game? After all, the counterclaim serves as an outlet with which to lynch the liar while outing the real PR... If they think he's going to die anyway, why out themselves?

Like I said...there is only a 50% chance that we even have a Doc...and you bring up a good point. Why counter if it looks like the person who is potentially fakeclaiming is going to get lynched anyway?

@Pan...you haven't had a vote out since your 2nd inadvertent L-3 vote very early in the game. Who are your top suspects again and do you envision placing a vote today? Or are you trying to stay off bandwagons during D1?

I'm having a particularly difficult time narrowing down my suspect pool in this game; I've never seen so many veritable wagons in one Day. It seems like every time we have a legitimate case against a player, another player does something infinitely scummier. I can tell you this:

I only see myself voting today if I feel with relative confidence that I'm hanging scum. So far, everyone's pretty much at equal scumminess, and that muddles things.

Lawls and Cojin are still dead-even potential lynchees for me Today. Lawls's request for replacement, while townish at the time, lost it's townie-vibe when he

stayed

at the table, and

then

requested to remain, in that order.

Cojin I'm tiptoeing around for just a few hours longer. I'd like to hear what everyone (including Cojin) has to say about the possibility of the real Doc laying low?

Also... Acosmist. I don't have a case at all (which, in and of itself is disturbing) to support this, but the fact that he's really received little to no suspicion Today doesn't bode well. He's one hell of a good player, to the point that he commands instant respect. People disagree with him for posts and posts, and yet no one calls him scummy. Also, sometimes it seems like random things get injected into his textwalls. If Acosmist is scum, he's in a position to give us one mighty runaround. Hmm. "Curiouser and curiouser." I just definitely don't feel we should be clearing him via groupthink as we seem to have been thus far.

[Panacea]

Hey, if it helps, I've been running through a few of Ray's games to verify his inactivity (not that

I

didn't believe him, but I figured y'all could use the reassurance. ). He consistently hasn't posted in at least 3 of his games, like ours, since the 20th.

Bridges doesn't have a link to his ongoing games on his wiki like RayFrost does, so I don't know about him.

[Panacea]

No! I've thought all day that we had one more!

Don't have time to figure up the hours remaining. However:

Havingfitz is perfectly adamant that his vote stays on Cojin.
RayFrost and Bridges are perfectly AWOL.
Acosmist, Nacho, Elementary, and Cojin are all perfectly committed to the Lawls lynch.
Lawls can't lynch himself.

*glances around* Well... This sucks. I didn't realize mine was the only movable vote.

vote: Lawls

I'm breaking the mold here. I don't think he's scum, but we don't have enough players for me to stand alone on principle...

[Panacea]

Did anyone else realize how little of a (rl) social life they have over this Night Phase..?

Cojin has been killed. He was a Doctor.

Well, that tells me absolutely nothing about Acosmist.

First, any sort of leaning toward D1 claims sets off warning bells in my head. I don't really get why he'd be "digging" for the Cop when so little time was left before deadline, though. Nacho, was your intention actually to encourage the claim?

[Panacea]

Acosmist, I don't have any case on you other than too-gut-based-to-make-me-comfortable observations. You're just reminding me a lot of my scum play (albeit more analytical and relative) in your helpfulness. My problem is that you, having read my scum play, would surely know I'd catch it. That notion and my wondering if I'm just being too paranoid are responsible for my leaning town for you at the moment. Given that I've got nothing of actual substance for a case on you, I'd hoped the Night might reveal something more concerning you. It was a given that Cojin would be the Kill after his claim, though. Sorry, but I can't build much confidence that there was more reason to Kill him. I wish he hadn't outed so early like that.

[Panacea]

Sorry everyone for my lack of annoying "Let's move!" posts. I've had a stack of midterms that ends tomorrow.

Nacho, how does Cojin's flip reconcile with this judgment of yours Yesterday?:

Cojin, you're acting... weird. Freaking out and claiming PR when you're at L-2 and no one really wants to lynch you isn't TownCojin play...

I mean, I just read Newbie 908, where you pegged two scum in two days after a successful Doc protect; the only thing that messed up your game was vanilla fakeclaiming cop... The Cojin that's playing in this game definitely isn't the Cojin that's playing in that one...

[Panacea]

Welcome, Ellibereth!

[Panacea]

Nacho, how does Cojin's flip reconcile with this judgment of yours Yesterday?:

Cojin, you're acting... weird. Freaking out and claiming PR when you're at L-2 and no one really wants to lynch you isn't TownCojin play...I mean, I just read Newbie 908, where you pegged two scum in two days after a successful Doc protect; the only thing that messed up your game was vanilla fakeclaiming cop... The Cojin that's playing in this game definitely isn't the Cojin that's playing in that one...

I think this demonstrates the limited usefulness of "meta."

My thoughts exactly.

Er... Ellibereth, you were kidding about not reading, yes? Otherwise, do I sense funsies from you?? Thank God!

I

like

you!

[Panacea]

Hell yes, guys! This is the most activity I've ever seen!! (This is probably the point you all turn and glare at me for not being a bigger part of it.) Religious holidays are kind of a big deal in the house of Pan. Finding time that isn't two am to read has become a chore. I'll have time to produce a thorough post while everyone's at work/school in the morning (nine or so hours?), and I promise über-content for your patience.

[Panacea]

Furthermore, with the hypothesis that scum are likely to post less than town, the review of the postotals and my vote analasys have a big huge venn diagram overlap.

Yeah, but this is dependent on player personality. It's apparent that I post a lot. As town or as scum, I post a lot. I just don't think it's at all in town interest to operate under that assumption, because I know from experience that while it's a trend, it's not a rule.

While I appreciate when players put a lot of effort into their analysis, I... like analysis. These constant votecounts and player mentions are nice to have on the record, but it's leaning a little IIoA for me. (Oh, Fitz agrees!)

I'll be moving away from concrete information to look into their direct player interactions shortly.

This helped the bad vibe, though. Somewhat.

Nacho, how does Cojin's flip reconcile with this judgment of yours Yesterday?

I was wrong... Was there anything else you were expecting to hear there?

Not much more than that, it's true. But could you, for the record, tell us exactly what you observed in the other game as opposed to this one? I have an interest in hearing it, if you've got a sec.

Elli, as a side note,#454, I lol'd.

Nacho, are you town? If so, vote for me. Do it. Then you will have your proof to vote this doofus off the island.

I am willing to be a martyr to show this clown for the fool he is

.

Elementary, that's not Townie. Come on. If you want to expose him,

help us expose him

. Y'know, the old fashioned way.

I'm not sure I like the way Elli pushed Elementary over the edge, then backed off when Elementary had an obv town reaction. It's just too darn easy to say that had been his plan all along as he did.

And Pan...which is it...midterms or religious holidays.

After taking this statement into thorough consideration, I've decided to PM God. His selection of the time he chose to resurrect his Son is really interfering with my play. Next comes the higher education system. In the middle of term is a silly time to have midterms.

At a glance Pana needs to explain why she wasn't voting for anyone for most of the day.

At another Ellibereth needs to answer whether or not he actually read all of D1.

Everyone

was scummy. You're so fond of meta. I don't typically vote unless I'm pretty compelled. On the Lawls hammer, my vote didn't matter anyway. As top voted, he would've died in a few hours with or without my help. I just hoped to end the game earlier than three am, so we'd start it back up earlier, too. Most posting seems to occur while I'm sleeping.

I said it yesterday and I'll say it again. Elementary's town in my eyes. He's the player I'm most certain of.

Ray is bothering me. I think he's genuinely busy, but we're to the stage where I can't say what he's given leans town, because he hasn't given too much. Ray, where are you?

My top suspect as of right now is Ellibereth. I never really took Bridges out of my sights after mentioning him early D1, and though he began to travel back toward the town end of the spectrum later in the Day, I don't like all the abruptness of Ellibereth's facts and figures with lacking rationality. The Elementary/Ellibereth conflict tweaked scum for me, and as it's the scummiest thing I think I've seen today, he ranks number 1, though not enough to vote. Yet.

I would like to see a bit more from Nacho on Ellibereth's allegations. Whether or not he'd be, what was it? the "most informative lynch" is debateable, and I'd like to see Nacho's opinion.

[Panacea]

Why is IIOA a scumtell when the information is hard and tedious to datamine?

Because it's easier to code information in the game than to fabricate lies.

I read 10 pages or so in a 100 page theme and 5/7 in two 20 page minis I replaced into. Worked out great.

Um...

Vote Counts ARE GOSPEL. I am usually willing to lynch someone based on votecounts without reading a single post they've made.

Um...

[Panacea]

Post #27:

Can you provide links to your completed games, Panacea?

But of course:

My first game was Newbie #863, as Vanilla Townie (fun stuff- four Doc claims)
My second was Newbie #890, as Vanilla Town. More fun; just ended less than an hour ago.
Third was Newbie # 868, as Mafia Roleblocker. I replaced into that one on the last Day as a favor with deadline a few days away. If you're going to judge my scumplay, I'd prefer you not hold that one against me.
My fourth was Newbie #879, as Roleblocker. I'm rather proud of that one.

Uhm... You SURE you read page two, there, buddy..? -.-

[Panacea]

You might get on that. Kthx.

[Panacea]

I'm too sick to be playing.

Mod, I am replacing out, however, I hope for this to be temporary. I have already made arrangements for a replacement, so you should get a PM from them.

I'll try not to cry myself to sleep tonight. Kidding; hope to see you back soon, Ray!

Hmm. Just glancing back at the Lawls lynch and found that sixty percent of the wagon was built in two hours and fifty minutes (Elementary, Nacho, and myself in that order). I know we were really close to deadline and all, but if you all wouldn't mind glancing back at it yourselves, does the pacing seem natural? I'm particularly interested in what Elementary and Nacho have to say about it. (And I know my drawing attention back to it will produce some questions my way, so I'll just wait for them, shall I? )

Frankly, I think there's a scummy between Elementary and Nacho, and since I've already thought Elementary was town, I'm inclined to lean more Nacho, if given the choice. But maybe I'm looking too closely at this:

I hate this lynch, but it's all that's going to get through and Lawls lynch > No lynch.

Wouldn't Lawls have been taken over a no-lynch, Nacho, since he was the highest voted? The rules seem to say so...

[Panacea]

Welcome, Furry!! Your avi is adorable..!

Panacea is still railing on the random wagon thing, it looks like an attempt to make the players on the wagon out as scummy which is very wrong, especially the mentioning of the first few voters. At this point she seems to be responding negatively to RVS pressure, and trying to turn it the wagon around on the voters.

There was a sizable wagon on a townie within a few days of opening, and the case was pathetic. 'Nuff said.

Furry's probably town.

Mathmania to, what, gut feeling in .2 seconds..? I don't like this at all.

The Havingfitz/Acosmist debate is going to be invaluable to the game, I can tell. (Well... Okay, to me, anyway.) Carry on, you two.

Days will have a deadline of three weeks. If the deadline is reached, the day will end without a lynch.

Welp, Pan was wrong instead of me.

Sorry about this!! My last game with MiteyMouse followed those conditions, so when I double-checked the rules a couple of days ago and saw this:

If the majority of players are voting for one player, he will be lynched and the day will end.

It just read all wrong. My mistake, sorry!

[Panacea]

Oh how naive you are...

Hm? But it

is

adorable. It looks so happy!

My only problem is that that makes 3 scummy people (havingfitz, Nacho, Ellibereth) with 2 mafia left. And our margin for error is getting small.

Leaning toward Ellibereth, myself. Havingfitz and Nacho are pretty tied with me, pending Havingfitz's rebuttal of Acosmist's post to him.

Tis be my meta. Anyone here whos' played with me (namely Nacho...the short little show Furry and I were together in), can confirm that.

Nacho's 0 for 1 on the accuracy of his previous experience with our players (Cojin), so while I'd like to hear his feeling anyway for future reference, I won't put too much stock in it. Furry?

Pana 526 looks town.

Huh? What about that could possibly give you a town read? It's not particularly helpful, compared to my usual. (Ew, my apologies if that sounds ridiculously vain. Not at all my intention.)

Can the replacements do us all a favor and actually read the game before commenting?

As per my initial sentiments when Ellibereth came in with the statement that he could "survive" without reading, I don't see the point of replacing in if you're not going to read.

Though, Acosmist, I think Furry actually

is

reading the game, and offering his/her (?) comments on the state of the game at which he/she left off. So he/she would have voted Cojin at the time he/she's reading. Amirite, Furry?

Heya, Furry,are you completely opposed to us knowing your gender on principle, or would you mind letting me know how to refer to you? ^^* You can even say "Think of me as ____" if you'd like. This is confusing.

[Panacea]

Though, Acosmist, I think Furry actually

is

reading the game, and offering his/her (?) comments on the state of the game at which he/she left off. So he/she would have voted Cojin at the time he/she's reading. Amirite, Furry?

Correct. You just wouldnt believe the day ive had though (it just ended with doing a three hour thermodynamics assignment). Have no energy to spend on getting caught up the rest of the way tonight

'S cool. Activity's down as is. -.-

Heya, Furry,are you completely opposed to us knowing your gender on principle, or would you mind letting me know how to refer to you? ^^* You can even say "Think of me as ____" if you'd like. This is confusing.

I am ambiguous. It doesnt matter what you call me, although it seems about 60-40 that people think im male.

Aaaand since we're so dead, I can add a little tidbit without feeling like I'm distracting the hunt! I was totally leaning female: you said "hun" earlier, the "*glee*" thing, and your avi looks somewhat female, by the expression. But whatever. I'll just call you by your name as much as I can.Or use whatever Bridges was talking about earlier.

[Panacea]

:arrow: Havingfitz: It's been two days.

:arrow: Nacho: It's been almost three.

:arrow: Ellibereth: Happy birthday.


. _i_i_i_i_i_i_i_i_i_i_i_
/_________________\
\_________________/

Um, it...

kinda

looks like a cake... And I dunno how old you are, so for proportion's sake, happy 11th.

[Panacea]

--> Pan: It's been about six days since you've offered content, by the way >.>

That's a matter of your opinion. My statement on your last post was supported by, well, fact: namely a timestamp. -.- But way to get defensive.

He doesnt want to be in lylo with RF and pan because "he will be lynched" which skirts the obvious answer to the question of "who is your most neutral read". I dont think he has major problems if any with the afformention two, but seems keen on breaking up som trust of eachother. Im always thrilled when town reads agree that they are both town, ususally they are trying to lynch eachother.

Furry, would you mind explaining this a bit?

[Panacea]

I'm aware I've got some things directed at me from Havingfitz, but I'm mobile, so you'll have to wait a bit on that.

Just to keep this from going too far out of hand, Nacho, I never said you and Havingfitz are scum together. I've been flying slow circles around Ellibereth for a while now. I'm thinking one of either you or Havingfitz as Ell's buddy, provided he's scum.

Acosmist, though I do appreciate your help, it unsettles me that you've been so quick to clear me all game. I've been told before that I play obvtown (our very own RayFrost, actually), but I'm starting to get concerned here.

[Panacea]

sigh....

I have no reason to agree on points that are incorrect

You failed at reading comprehension for many pages. In fact, if you'd not posted like a

moron

, the walls of text wouldn't have been quite so large.

Fact => if you didn’t post like such a pompous

ass

with an obsession to prove yourself right when you are wrong, the walls of text wouldn't have been quite so large. Seriously...do you talk like you post when in conversation with

friends

other people?

Hey hey hey, I must've missed this last night. C'mon, guys, this isn't productive. Furthermore,

I try to refrain from initiating wallposts but I find it difficult refraining from replying to them.

'Kay. So which is more important? Your win condition or your need to

insult

discredit

argue with Acosmist?

Whoever the scum is has to be absolutely loving the Acosmist/havingfitz diversion.

Er... Did we forget that Acosmist is

voting

you? He's kinda entitled to argue his case, and the majority of us will kinda benefit from it.

How does Pan’s interest in seeing another wallpost exchange between Acosmist and I indicate she is town to you? The exchange is doing no good to town that I can see and is only distracting other town from scumhunting and allowing scum to hide behind it.

Uhm... Seriously? Speaking as a townie unsure of either of your roles, the debate is quite functional in

determining

said alignments, wouldn't you agree? Also, you're tied for my number 2 suspect. I'm inclined be interested in his case on you. I've already said that this interest doesn't a town tell make, but neither does it a scum tell. Personally, I foresee this exchange being crucial to outting scum in the (it's true, maybe not close) future. You wouldn't happen to have a problem with that, Havingfitz, now would you?

Havingfitz, do you feel that Acosmist is scum? I just want as solid an answer as you can provide, please and thank you.

How do you feel about Nacho’s end of D1 actions and play so far on D2 (I realize your end of D1 actions weren’t much better than Nacho’s)

On Nacho, more forgivable now that I'm aware that there would indeed have been a no-lynch. I think someone mentioned Nacho's vote as opportunistic? I'm not ruling it out, but I think his reasons make sense. A No-lynch D1 would have been unacceptable (particularly when we had two such strong wagons we'd only WIFOM ourselves over Today). One had claimed Doc. It's not hard to see that logic.

On my actions, at the time I thought Lawls would die as most voted anyway. Even since enlightened (on the process of a lynch in this game, not of Lawls's flip. ), I don't regret that decision. As I said at the time, Lawls's request for replacement seemed townie, but choosing to stay killed the vibe. THAT or a claimed Doc? I think it worked out for the best, because I'm fairly confident that if we hadn't lynched him Yesterday, we'd be doing it now.

and what in my play has me on par with Nacho?

Nacho was uber-helpful at the beginning Yesterday, but Today he almost seems... detached? His final vote looked suspicious to me (given my incorrect mindset). With you, I don't like this:

Coming out of D/N1 I'm leaning against Acosmist being scum...slightly against EF as scum. TBD on Ray. ATM, I'm thinking scum are within the BaB, Pan and Nacho group. Really don't like how Nacho handled the end of D1 though.

Vote: Nacho

You actually

said

that you thought Acosmist had a decent chance of being scum, then you voted Nacho. Since then, you've been embarking on a novella against Acosmist and having fits on Elementary without moving your Nacho vote. Then you somewhat abruptly decide Acosmist is town and (along with yourself) distracting the rest of town from the hunt. This feels... weird...

[Panacea]

Havingfitz, I dunno about Acosmist, but I'm still waiting for this:

Once Cojin claimed Doc his fate was most likely sealed, so not being the D1 lynch was a moot point that ended up being the best outcome for town (though I am somewhat surprised he survived N1).

what

I try to refrain from initiating wallposts but I find it difficult refraining from replying to them.

'Kay. So which is more important? Your win condition or your need to

insult

discredit

argue with Acosmist?

Does this question apply to Acosmist as well? Win condition of course.

The question was hypothetical and aimed to make a point, but if I was serious (and even though I wasn't, whatever) it would still be open to him. Apparently not all of our MS coding contains the "hide from every other player than the one addressed" button that yours does.

All of these quotes from Day 2 weren’t solid enough?

Not... necessarily, against the way you've been firing at him.

Considering you are right behind Nacho on my scum list it comes as no surprise to me that you find Nacho’s D1 actions forgivable.

Oh, shoot, you're right. As a townie I def should've falsified my responses to avoid suspicion.

Oh, and about that. See, your case on me is virtually assembled from the same stuff as the one on him. Which logically reduces his weight on the Nach-Fitz balance and dips you a little lower on my scumdar.

I've got to run for a bit on short notice. I'll pick this back up when I return, shall I?

FoS: Havingfitz

[Panacea]

What does the fact he’s voting me matter? Scum still have to be loving the exchange (whether Acosmist is among them or not).

... ... Er. I don't think I'm being clear enough, maybe? Acosmist is voting you, as in you're his prime suspect. As in he's

going

to investigate you, and it smells funny that you're trying to dismantle said investigation on the grounds of saying scum are enjoying it.

The debate may prove useful, but that remains to be seen.

Okay, we agree about that. We just having to have opposing opinions as to said utility.

Coming out of D/N1 I'm leaning against Acosmist being scum

...

slightly against EF as scum.

TBD on Ray. ATM, I'm thinking scum are within the BaB, Pan and Nacho group. Really don't like how Nacho handled the end of D1 though.

Vote: Nacho

You actually

said

that you thought Acosmist had a decent chance of being scum

, then you voted Nacho. Since then, you've been embarking on a novella against Acosmist and having fits on Elementary without moving your Nacho vote. Then you somewhat abruptly decide Acosmist is town and (along with yourself) distracting the rest of town from the hunt. This feels... weird...

Where did I say Acosmist had a decent chance of being scum (bolding by me)? This is a lie (unless I’m overlooking it in my ISO or not recalling it) and is in line with most of this post of yours...inaccurate and misleading.

Er, no it's not. Where you said it (and included in the post to begin with, lol) is bolded, italicized, underlined, and red. I promise you I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm beginning to wonder if Acosmist's jibe about whether or not you read the posts is correct.

WTH does “embarking on a novella” mean in relation to keeping my vote on Nacho?

It means you've had a vote out on Nacho all Day and you've spared him no attention in the face of constructing a novella of textwalls against Acosmist.

And what does my exchange with EF matter re: my Nacho vote?

Same reasons, except you even said you weren't feeling scum-Elementary (violet, lest we lose track of our own quotes again) before you gave him more attention than the recipient of your vote.

First of all, why do you have a vote on me that you haven't advanced at all? No questions or anything make you seem damn sure of my guilt.

Yeah, that.

[Panacea]

I forget who has it in their sig but its true "succinctness is pro-town"

Elmo.

What don’t you understand? I elaborated on the comment in the very next line of the post, shown below, which neither of you included

... Okie... Please explain THIS, the bolded:

Once Cojin claimed Doc his fate was most likely sealed, so not being the D1 lynch was a moot point that ended up being the best outcome for town

(though I am somewhat surprised he survived N1).

we have the bandwagons to mull over. Which there seems to be a significant lack of (ie consideration of the mislynch bandwagon) with respect to the townie that actually got lynched D1.

Wonder why we've not been giving appropriate attention to certain things.

[Elementary's] play has dropped a good deal since the middle of D1.

I concur.

So you interpret my saying “I’m leaning against Acosmist being scum” translates to you as Acosmist has “a decent chance of being scum?” We’ll just have to disagree on our interpretations of those comments.

Apparently.

Do you mean I’ve given nacho no attention?

Yes. Well, almost no attention, anyway, for someone with a vote on him.

Other than his end of D1 actions Nacho hasn’t really done much D2 to sway or firm up my suspicions of him.

And you haven't really done much to express those suspicions of yours, either.

Would you rather I did not exchange posts with EF?

Nope. Neither did I say anything of the sort. That's just twice now you've given more attention to players on whom you're "leaning" town than the one on whom you're "leaning" scum.

Does my top suspect and recipient of my vote have to have the bulk of my attention?

If you're a townie, yeah. Your win condition says find scum, lynch scum. Your vote says Nacho is most likely scum in your eyes. You should have been trying to convince us of this for days now, not exchanging low-blows with Acosmist.

Just had a bit of an idea. Havingfitz, are you Nacho's scumbuddy?

[Panacea]

EBWOP:

Your vote says Nacho is [out of all of us, the player] most likely scum in your eyes

[Panacea]

Finally, I am finding that I do not have the time to go through and put together posts the way Acosmist or havinfitz apparently do. I read everything that is posted, usually multiple times, and consider it all. When I feel I have something to contribute, some insight unnoticed by everyone else, I will respond. I am sorry that I cannot give you five thousand word articles every time.

My only real problem with your activity right now is the lack of questions. While observation is obviously crucial, more observation than contribution (remarks, comments, arguments, questions, etc.) generally gives off a more scummy vibe, whatever the game. Wasn't dissing you if that's how it sounded, my apologies.

[Panacea]

Haven't been able to load MS on my laptop for more than ten minutes at a time. I'm posting from my phone now. Please no one hammer Havingfitz til I can get to a less university, stretched-too-thin network in roughly eight/ten hours? I'll have my thoughts in well before deadline if I have to code it on my phone. (Though let's hope it doesn't come to that!)

[Panacea]

I'm going to keep this simple. I've made my suspicions of Havingfitz clear, and I find his explanations unsatisfactory. I wouldn't say I'm sold on the Havingfitz lynch on the basis that he is scum, but I would say that from his play so far, he has a better chance of being scum than the rest of you, and I'd definitely prefer NOT to be in a Lylo situation with him, if it comes down to that.

I had started to lean away from the Havingfitz lynch, but the line that read something like "Lylo is only one lynch away" or whatever gave me a further negative twinge.

Mod, can we get a votecount, please?

Uh...I've run through the votes three times now. It's 1:34 am and I need sleeeeeep. By my count, it's Acosmist, Nacho, Elementary. So I'm gonna

vote: Havingfitz

and leave time for a bit more discussion while I sleeeeeep... I'll be up in a bit to continue.

Where are you guys getting the time of the deadline?

[Panacea]

Damn... Ray had me fooled..!

And what happened there D3, guys..? That was sad. I know finals were on (I was admittedly happy I was NK'ed out just before), but this was depressing to read through... I kept having to remind myself that I couldn't post "Let's GO, guys!" messages.

Acosmist, great move keeping after my RayFrost fangirlism. I called you scum (to the 'Panacea has been NightKilled' message on my computer screen, lol) before I started considering Furry. Had you been lynched and flipped scum, I would have been even less inclined to think Furry from your interaction D1. Well done!

Tip: Once you've got a townie NK, it's a good idea to discuss who gains most from that person's death. Had I been another (living) player, I would have brought up that I had very subtly mentioned a doubt in Acosmist's direction. I kept waiting for someone to mention it.

Well done, everyone.