Newbie 920: Mafia in Newbietown (Game over! Town wins!)

[Julano]

Hi everyone. My second online game (first on this site) and once again I'm at the top of the player list

My play is based strongly on solid, logical arguments as opposed to gut feelings and emotions.

I like you already. You are my eternal ally for this game.

And now to answer the large number of questions:

1) What experience, if any, do you have in playing the game of Mafia?
2) Please describe your playstyle. Do you feel that you are more biased towards logic or gut? How would you describe your reasoning process?
3) Why do you play Mafia?
4) Is it an African Swallow or a European Swallow?
5) Would you prefer playing as town or as scum? Why?
6) Would you agree with the statement, "Lynch all Liars"? Why? How about the statement "You appear to be too townie, therefore you must be scum" or "Never lynch a claimed power role on the same day that the player claims"?

1. I play in real life with friends quite often. Our group has grown from about 6 people to up to 12 on some days.
2. Logic. Well, I guess it's gut actually, but that's pretty much based on logic anyway.
3. Fun.
4. European.
5. Probably town because working it out is pretty fun, although I'll admit to being disappointed when I get my role and it's town.
6. "Lynch all Liars" <-- I've seen townies lie, but that's pretty rare so yes.
"You appear to be too townie, therefore you must be scum" <-- That's pretty nasty, frankly
"Never lynch a claimed power role on the same day that the player claims" <-- I guess, though this isn't a question that comes up too much in face to face.

And on to the second set...

A) If you're pro-town and someone else that is pro-town votes to lynch you, is someone playing badly? If so, who?
B) If you were pro-town and were almost certainly going to be lynched, what would you do?
C) Under what circumstances is it okay to list or not list your suspects?
D) When someone votes a new suspect, should that person explain why they unvoted their old suspect too?
E) If someone doesn't answer a question, does that make them scum, scummy, or just annoying?

A. Them. I don't really bother trying to appear innocent when I'm town, so they're just reading me wrong
B. Post my suspicions with some detail so that the town have something to work off when they see my thoughts were legitimate.
C. Again, doesn't come up in face to face so I don't really know.
D. Why not?
E. Yes.

[Julano]

Anyway, I'm thinking Legions is suspicious. Clearly trying to make us forget he's in the game by not posting. Definite mafia there.

[Julano]

To the people posing questions: It would be helpful if you also answered your own questions. Thanks.

True 'dat.

I'm not sure quite how questions are going to get discussion started on this game, but it's better than the random voting I've seen in others.

[Julano]

Random voting is unfortunately the norm on this site - I choose not to partake because I feel that its results are questionable. As I said earlier, I'll be answering my questions last, just so that my answers don't end up being everybody else's answers. I once played a game in which I answered first, and the other players basically potsed, "Yeah, what he said." Absolutely unhelpful.

Fair enough.

Also, "Inexperience Challenged" - huh?

[Julano]

What is?

[Julano]

Solved day 1. High five!

*Subtly ignores the fact that FlufflyGiggles has said nothing either, but because of the awesome username will never be voted for by me.*

[Julano]

Inexperience-Challenged is a roundabout way of saying that I'm an experienced player without making newbies feel inferior by calling then "inexperienced" vs. "experienced".

Well, that kind of makes sense... ish?

Question: If you are mafia, what would you consider unnaceptable use of your 'IC status' in order to win?

[Julano]

The 'common tells' bit could be interesting. "Julano and I are both voting for x. Newbs often do this when they are mafia, but from an experienced player this is a sign of town..."

[Julano]

McGriddle, have you any opinion on Netopalis at this point?

[Julano]

Yes, well explained.

btw, is there a way to view the first unread post in a topic?

[Julano]

That's when the interesting stuff starts.

- Have added to watched topics, thanks. Though there is no way of finding the first unread post other than scrolling back up the topic until you recognise it?

[Julano]

I'll experiment.

Any reply to Unsight?

[Julano]

I like the fact that Carl got straight into the game. (That was the purpose of the questions in the first place, after all.) Makes me think he's more likely to be town.

I don't agree with the argument though; it seems to be based mostly on Netopalis slowing the game down. I'm seeing this as an IC trying to explain things, rather than a mafia move at present.

[Julano]

No, Legions is the leader.

[Julano]

To respond to a couple of points on page 6, my answers to the questions were truthful. If you're (Netopalis) finding them mafia-like then you're reading too much into them =\. Unsight's comment (that I hadn't begun 'scumhunting' yet) was correct (pretty much), since at that point I didn't see much to analyse. That should change shortly.

In my opinion, this game really started with Carl Sagan's attack on Netopalis at the top of page 5. Getting down to the action seems townie to me, hence on my imaginary scales he has moved a distance to the town side. That's probably my most extreme 'leaning' right now, although he should definitely post more. The lack of any kind of follow-up is diluting this read.

About Netopalis' summary (page 6): you seem to have quite strong opinions on several people already? How?
1. You are mafia trying to influence the town's thoughts
2. You are stating your opinions more strongly than they actually just for simplification/to make them meaningful
3. You actually do have well developed ideas at this point.

Mentioned is McGriddle's 'continued presence in this game and the posting of lots of content' as a positive point amongst a null read. I don't really remember much useful input from McGriddle?

FluffyGiggles:
Based just on the questions, I'd have a scum read, especially from this answer:
"c) Absolutes are bad. But not always. You'd have to factor in how suspicious the player's been acting, etc."
However, her third page post between this post and my last one is very, very strongly pro-town. She takes Sagan's post seriously and turns an illogical argument into a cool-headed analysis of the situation at hand. I'd be interested in hearing her response to both of these posts. Solid town read.

After laughing at the irony of 'Absolutes are bad. But not always', I wonder why this line is scummy to you?
Rest of the paragraph I'd agree with. (Except perhaps the 'solid'.)

Fiyr, I am confused at your suspision of Carl. If you could explain a bit more that would be great.




Incidentally, I am aware that being unsure of who to vote for is often considered a mafia tell.

[Julano]

EBWOP: asserting yourself so hard as the dominant player in this game.

That is true, but then he has announced this fact. As mafia he would want be leading without making people clearly aware of it?

Netpalis: 'you seem to have quite strong opinions on several people already? How?'

[Julano]

Which reasons?

[Julano]

^ to mcgriddle, simulpost

[Julano]

I very much agree with FluffyGiggles' post about Fiyr.

- TOWN -
FluffyGiggles and Unsight seem to be adding the most that is meaningful, so appear town.
They are followed by Netopalis, who has lots of posts with some opinions, but nothing too analytical. The suspicion at the moment seems based solely on the fact that he has become a leader and would be dangerous if he is also mafia. True, but a very weak argument and not at all convincing.


While my opinion of Netopalis' alignment is pretty much neutral, there is no reason to think he is mafia and so I move on to everyone else with the assumption that everyone above is innocent.

- OTHER -
2/5 of these are mafia.
Fiyr, mariomaster, Carl Sagan, Legions, McGriddle.

Carl I thought before was town, but his follow up makes me less than convinced. Having said that, a mafia strategy of attacking the IC seems dangerous, so strategy-wise would probably be innocent.

Fiyr has posted a lot but said little? See Fluffy's post.
Fiyr: do you consider a weak argument to be a mafia tell?

McGriddle has also posted a lot but said little.

Finally we have mariomaster and Legions whose posts I don't think have said anything at all. How you guys think we're supposed to know if you're innocent I don't know...



p.s. FluffyGiggles, please could name your gender so that we can refer to you using a pronoun?

[Julano]

Vote: Legions

Say something.

Can you elaborate any specific issues you found FluffyGiggles and Unsight "helpful" with?

Scroll up the page. I find that their posts are analytical and make sense.

McGriddle, would you mind posting a list of players and your thoughts? Also please could you name a gender too.

Fiyr: do you consider a weak argument to be a mafia tell?

[Julano]

Wow, if your post had been 15 minutes later we would have gone 24 hours with no new activity.

I would be interested to see a list of players with thoughts from you too, Fiyr.


Also, I'm not sure how much pressure a vote adds if it is announced as a pressure vote.

[Julano]

Not really sure what to say right now. My vote remains on Legions; he needs to talk. If not I think he would be the right lynch, since otherwise we'll never be able to tell either way.

Netopalis, you seem to have a high posting rate but I can't remember anything you've said lately except defending yourself. Who are your suspicions at the moment?

[Julano]

The quote is part of my narrowing down process. Questions are to get new information where I want it.

To the exclusion of other scumtells? Voting patterns I am keeping track of but have little to say about so far. Other than that, I don't think I actually know of any 'tells'. Tells implies a slip-up, which might or might not happen. General posting (/speaking) is what I have found most effective, so is what I'm concentrating on.

How long have you suspected me and why say it now?

[Julano]

Back to the questions...
Then you changed your mind? Or were you just saying that?

[Julano]

Julano
1 Not posting five hours into the game is not scummy. Also three other players hadn't posted yet either. He didn't post much after either, culminating in my replacing him, but this is not uncommon in newbie games for players of any alignment.
8 Why did you ask this specific player A about this specific player B?

Thanks for joining the game.

Unvote

, since you're talking. By '1' and '8', what are you referring to?

Not really sure what to say right now.

Why not? Do you have any questions or comments on either of the people analysis (one of which

you

requested)?

"E) If someone doesn't answer a question, does that make them scum, scummy, or just annoying?"

"E. Yes"

Ummm......~.~ very helpful....

Any comment towards this?

The quote is of an answer to one of the original questions. No, I'm not going to respond to that. The analysis I wanted in order to compare against my own. Suffice to say that both you and Mario are closer to the town side because of them.


This day is dragging. The people I still haven't placed are McGriddle, Netopalis and Ythan.

[Julano]

Bleh. Carl has "tunnel-vision", but I don't think he's mafia.
I have Carl, FG, Unsight and mario as town, although 3 of the 4 haven't posted much so it's hard to be sure.
I'm not impressed that Fiyr is voting me only after Netapolis voiced suspicions.

[Julano]

Huh? I'll look back in a moment.

I think the strategy does not fit a mafia player. Carl is
1. Attacking the IC, the most experienced player here.
2. drawing a lot of attention to himself.
3. got the game properly started in the first place.

Plus, if as mafia he did successfully get Netapolis lynched, that would be even more negative attention on him when we saw Netapolis' alignment.

[Julano]

8 Why did you ask this specific player A [McGriddle]about this specific player B [Netopalis]?

I've found this post in the list of posts by me, but not in the main thread. Is there a way to quickly find it?

[Julano]

Huh? I'll look back in a moment.

I think the strategy does not fit a mafia player. Carl is
1. Attacking the IC, the most experienced player here.
2. drawing a lot of attention to himself.
3. got the game properly started in the first place.

Plus, if as mafia he did successfully get Netapolis lynched, that would be even more negative attention on him when we saw Netapolis' alignment.

WIFOM. You're arguing that he's too scummy to be scum.

No, I'm saying that a mafia

wouldn't

act like that. Hence, town.

[Julano]

Oh, I think I see what you mean. And yet I think my point still stands.

If acting scummy (attack on IC and IC only) is likely to get a player lynched, they will not do this. The 'too scummy to be scum' argument is, to most people, a lot weaker than the original. Bear in mind that this is his first game as well, it seems likely to me that a first-timer will be likely to play their best normally and not immediately go for the double-bluff.


He also got the game started, a point which is exempt from the WIFOM stuff.

[Julano]

As I said, I don't think it is scummy.

the thought process:
- I am mafia. How shall I play this?
- I'll stand out by attacking rather than blending in and answering the questions like everyone else
- I'll attack the experienced guy.

Seems odd.

[Julano]

Actually that is possible; he didn't answer the original questions. What are you basing that on?

[Julano]

alt?

8 Why did you ask this specific player A [McGriddle]about this specific player B [Netopalis]?

Found this, 'twas on page 2.

I think this was an attempt to get the game moving. McGriddle and Netopalis were the two significant posters at that point.

[Julano]

Second accounts aren't supposed to be in newbie games. Though I guess that doesn't rule it out.

[Julano]

I already had a vote on Grid for in-game reasons. Now it is also a policy lynch because of an ongoing game that I can't discuss but that I'm sure Neto can confirm.

In game reasons, fine, but...

I have an issue the the policy lynch idea on a player. You're saying it's fine to vote someone for out of game reasons, but not to explain it??
I used to use a diplomacy site where it was considered 'metagaming', i.e. cheating, to hold grudges on a specific player from game to game or always ally with a certain player from game to game. Is that not the case on mafiascum?

I'm sorry, there's really no excuse for me to be gone that long.

Julano:

My case on him is that,
He has been fencesitting/having a wishywashy read and he blatantly refused to respond.
Should I rephrase my questions?

2. Logic. Well, I guess it's gut actually, but that's pretty much based on logic anyway.

Carl I thought before was town, but his follow up makes me less than convinced. Having said that, a mafia strategy of attacking the IC seems dangerous, so strategy-wise would probably be innocent.

He seems rather wishywashy here on his stance.

The quote is of an answer to one of the original questions.

No, I'm not going to respond to that.

The analysis I wanted in order to compare against my own.

I find your refusal more annoying than it is anything else. Still, your blatant refusal puts up a red flag for me.

Shall I rephrase the question? Why did you respond "yes" to a non-yes or no question?

Anyway, I don't want to get caught up in my own world here, I will post a little more on the McGriddle case + others next.

2 of the 3 points are about answers to the original questions. Analysing those really seems pointless to me... but since it has apparently annoyed you so much:

"If someone ignores questions, does it make them scum, scummy or just annoying?" (having restated the question, this whole discussion is kinda ironic. Still, I didn't

ignore

the point... =P)
I answered "yes", since it does make them annoying, scummy and possibly scum.

The quote you thought was "wishywashy" was me voicing my thoughts.

Later you mention me having to be "prodded" to post. I don't think that that has been the case, although I guess one could say otherwise, what with this post only coming after McGriddle's pressure vote has come and gone. That's just the way things have turned out rather than anything deliberate.

[Julano]

SO we have a cop. That's the good news. Unfortunately they can't claim.

Left in:
Julano
Fiyr
Mario
Fluffy
Ythan
Unsight
McGriddle

Me I know to be town, but you'll have to make up your own minds.
Fiyr was the first vote on Carl, but took it off soon after McGriddle joined in. Nevertheless, he was against Carl right from the start.*
Mario, as far as I remember I've liked what he's said, though he hasn't said much. Was pro-Carl.
Fluffy also hasn't said much. Hammer vote on Carl Sagan. Not sure.
Ythan I suspect to be town, since as a new joiner he could have swing the vote away from Carl Sagan I think.
Unsight I would hope is town from his behaviour. Was the third (second in bandwagon) vote on Carl after quite a while, arguably got things moving again.
McGriddle was the second vote and kept it up for the rest of the game except a short time on me. Townish voting? I have changed my mind.

Town:
Ythan
Unsight
McGriddle

Other:
Fiyr
Mario
Fluffy

An idea: how about before the lynch we agree on who the cop investigates? e.g. we ask the cop to investigate Julano, and if in the morning the cop doesn't claim, we know I am innocent?

Vote: Mariomaster

Cop: please investigate Fluffy.

*the kind of line that has been highlighted as whishywashy in the past. Oh well.

[Julano]

True, hadn't thought of that.

Still, 'twould force the mafia to kill a suspect.

[Julano]

Maybe that's not worth it actually, we'd still be in the dark about everyone alive.

[Julano]

On further reflection I think we should.

Cop: please investigate Fluffy.

[Julano]

Well, nothing new really, just weighing up the options.

1. If we ask the cop to investigate a specific player, we can find out said player's alliegence without the cop claiming.
If the mafia kills that player, we cut down on the suspects but we DON'T end up with a confirmed, alive townie.

2. Either that or the cop plays independently and must decide if and when to claim.


Who are your top suspicions at the moment, Ythan?

[Julano]

I'm liking this less and less. The least you guys could do is stop swearing, it's making me cringe. I hope this is better by tommorow.

^ This.
It's very emotional from both of you. If you are both town despite your apparent certainty about each other, such an attention-grabbing argument is exactly what the mafia wants.


I like FluffyGiggle's response to me in post 585.

-You changed your mind on McGriddle due to him being suspicious of the easiest lynch option possible? He didn't go after Sagan until Neto turned up the heat on him, something else to think about.
-As a new joiner, Ythan did try to swing the lynch away from Carl Sagan. He was pushing pretty strong for a McGriddle lynch.

I -think- I still stand by the McGriddle judgement. Sagan, known by the other mafia to be the roleblocker, would never be an easy lynch for the mafia.
I might have got my facts wrong here.


How come Mario came on, posted only about the cop plans and then left without being picked up on it?

[Julano]

[quote="Fiyr"king this less and less. The least you guys could do is stop swearing, it's making me cringe. I hope this is better by tommorow.

^ This.
It's very emotional from both of you. If you are both town despite your apparent certainty about each other, such an attention-grabbing argument is exactly what the mafia wants. [/quote]

...
Why did you quote me? Is there something you were going to say about this post?[/quote]
I agreed with what you said there. I'm not a fan of swearing, it lowers the tone.

Town:
Ythan
Unsight
McGriddle

Other:
Fiyr
Mario
Fluffy

My position now is the same except Ythan has moved down into the red category. As someone pointed out, Ythan was trying to swing the vote onto McGriddle rather than Sagan. I will also add that Ythan was voting McGriddle who was voting mafia. Chainsaw defence?

Fluffy's hammer vote I don't find suspicious personally because I was contemplating doing the same, just to end the day, even though I didn't think Sagan was mafia.

Vote: Mario

.

[Julano]

First off, I apologise for not posting for so long.

Town:
Ythan
Unsight
McGriddle

Other:
Fiyr
Mario
Fluffy

My position now is the same except Ythan has moved down into the red category. As someone pointed out, Ythan was trying to swing the vote onto McGriddle rather than Sagan. I will also add that Ythan was voting McGriddle who was voting mafia. Chainsaw defence?

Now I would put it like

Unsight
McGriddle

Fiyr
Mario
Fluffy

Ythan

Green I think is town, blue probably town and red probably mafia. Since my last post Fiyr, Mario and FluffyGiggles have all produced good content. Ythan is getting/got more and more sarcastic and rude, especially responding badly (imo) to Mario's big post. I didn't feel he was answering the points made properly; rather he was trying to dismiss them and get people to think of them as stupid, to be ignored.

@Julano- you stuck a vote: Mario in there without mentioning him at all in the rest of your last post. ?

Yes. He was one of my four 'reds' at that point, and I intended to keep my vote on him until if and when this changed. As it has.

Something about ISO 20 bothers me

This one? (From oldest first?)

Wow, if your post had been 15 minutes later we would have gone 24 hours with no new activity.

I would be interested to see a list of players with thoughts from you too, Fiyr.


Also, I'm not sure how much pressure a vote adds if it is announced as a pressure vote.

unvote

I am prepared to put the hammer vote on Ythan. I will leave it a day to allow for a roleclaim or a good reason why not to.

[Julano]

I am still planning on voting for Legions/Ythan/Kyiv. Even if the new player does not 'act scummy', the fact remains that the previous two players have, and they're all playing the same role.

At the moment I'm waiting for Kyiv's opinion on the game. If they're town then it can't hurt.

[Julano]

Thankyou for subbing in Kyiv and reading through.

Vote: Kyiv.

[Julano]

Oh, phew . You scared me with that twilight message, Kyiv.

Thanks to Zachrulez for narrating! Difficult situation to moderate, well done.


Hence the lack of posting, I got kinda demotivated during day 2 to the point where I was considering suggesting a lynch on myself ("to avoid hitting the cop"). Decided not to because it would have hurt the town's chance of winning, through narrowing down the location of the cop and not killing a suspect (from my point of view, anyway).

Out of interest, who did McGriddle detect and Netopalis save night 1?

Also, what were people's impressions of McGriddle versus Ythan? Personally I got a bit confused about it; if I had been asked for the arguments either way I probably couldn't have said.

[Julano]

Well found, then.

Also,

I have an issue the the policy lynch idea on a player. You're saying it's fine to vote someone for out of game reasons, but not to explain it??

now we're out of game I still stand by this. Was such an action by Ythan part of his play as scum, or is it actually relatively normal on mafiascum?