Mini 911 - Mike's Pizzeria Mafia (Game Over)

[Cuetlachtli]

/confirm

[Cuetlachtli]

I'm getting the feeling that Idiotking doesn't like the RVS.

I don't like RVS either so...

vote: Lastsurvivor

[Cuetlachtli]

I'm getting the feeling that Idiotking doesn't like the RVS.

I don't like RVS either so...

vote: Lastsurvivor

Saying that you don't like the RVS, then voting someone without justification is just as bad as any RVS vote.

So what is your justification?

Just because I don't like RVS doesn't mean I shouldn't be involved in it. The way I see it, RVS is like washing dishes. No one likes doing it, but it is extremely necessary.

I do think RVS is important. Scum may slip during RVS and though we may not notice it right now, we may notice it in the endgame when the field is narrowed. In my last game, I was scum and I pretty much deceived the town the whole game. But on the last day, when it was 3 town and me LYLO, they reviewed the whole game and noticed my Day 1 scum slips. So, based on that single example, I do think RVS is important even though I dislike it.

unvote

btw...I do have answers to Parama's questions, though it will have to wait until tomorrow because I am sleepy.

also...I hope evil gets replaced because he was hella lurky in my last game to the detriment to the town. Lurking isn't necessarily scummy, but it is absolutely anti-town.

[Cuetlachtli]

1. What's your personal opinion of RVS? Love it or hate it? And why? (I realize a few people have already given their opinion but for the sake of this questionnaire if you wouldn't mind restating it please.)
2. If you had to call someone out as scum right this instant, who would you say is most likely to be scum? I understand that there's very little to go on and assume this will be mostly gut reads.

@ Cuetlachtli: What possible links between players have you seen thus far?

1. I dislike RVS because it is boring and it seems to take a long time. I feel like the game doesn't really start until RVS is over. On the flip side, the scum might slip during RVS, though players might not notice it until the end game when the field is narrowed and relationships start becoming apparent.

2. In my one and only game on this site, I was scum. On D1, my scum buddy was being pressured and I tried to divert attention away from him by asking his attacker why he was ignoring another player who was displaying relatively the same behavior as my scum buddy. After my scum buddy was lynched, the town realized my scum slip and I was, in turn, lynched.

I believe there may be some diverting going on in this game. As you know, DRK voted SP and FoSed me for confirming at the same time. Really, this shouldn't be a big deal. Its RVS, therefore votes or FoS shouldn't be taken seriously. But it seems like one player did take DRK's vote seriously. After DRK voted for SP, Seven emulated DRK's reasoning for voting SP by voting Chamber because he was the "last to confirm." This maybe an early Scum attempting to buddy Town tactic. Right after Seven voted Chamber, he asked DRK a direct question:

"DRK: Why vote SeerPenguin and not Cuetlachtli? Do you have something against penguins?"

Seems like Seven is trying to free SP, a potential scum buddy, of some early pressure. Its strange to me that Seven would take issue to DRK voting SP when he himself voted Chamber for very similar reasons.

That said...

vote: Seven

[Cuetlachtli]

Btw peeps, Seven isn't looking very scummy,

however, DRK is. He is, in fact, the only person in this game that looks to be pushing suspicion on anyone, and I agree with him on that one fact, pushing unwarranted on someone is pretty freaking scummy.

Can you cite where DRK pushed suspicion on people please?

[Cuetlachtli]

Oh boy, scum-group speculation this early?

Cuet, do you understand why saying Seven is scum because he was defending hypo-scum me doesn't make any sense, considering I have not yet been revealed (As scum or otherwise), and that argument would not work unless I was revealed as scum. Therefore, your vote on Seven is based on me being scum, so why say you that I am scum?

This reaction and you subsequently saying that Seven isn't being very scummy without presenting an argument why Seven isn't being very scummy strengthens my argument that both you and Seven are scum buddies.

Also, earlier you took a jab at Parama for helping facilitate a town discussion. IMO, town discussion is always good even if the discussion is started by scum. A game with lurkers and no content is bad for the town, while a game with discussion and content is good for the town.

Also, Seven advised you and DRK to quit arguing earlier. I think arguing is good for the town because it adds to the discussion. He is scummy for trying to diffuse you guys' argument.

So from my calculations, you and Seven have tried to defend each other three times already in this very short game. Really the only people who would have incentive to defend someone are scum because they don't have strength in numbers like the town does. You and Seven defending each other makes me very suspicious of the both of you.

[Cuetlachtli]

Btw peeps, Seven isn't looking very scummy,

however, DRK is. He is, in fact, the only person in this game that looks to be pushing suspicion on anyone, and I agree with him on that one fact, pushing unwarranted on someone is pretty freaking scummy.

Can you cite where DRK pushed suspicion on people please?

...

DRK post 1:

Vote: SeerPenguin

You and Cuetlachtli confirmed too close together (and were 10th and 11th). You must be scum. Discuss.

Also, you get my vote for not explaining your joke

DRK post 4:

Not only did he simul-confirm with Cuet, he also gave a joke without explanation. Withholding information is scummy.

I srongly suspect from this post that I'm going to find you scummy no matter what you do. I recently encountered someone with a similar tone to his posts and played the entire game (okay, so it only lasted two days...) thinking he was scum. Do you think it's scummy that I just gave myself an excuse to suspect you whenever I want?

DRK post 9:

Scummy. SP seemed intent on putting unwarranted suspicion on Flare. SP was implicitly affirming his statement from his previous post that Flare was a "detriment to the town," even though his reason, that Flare hadn't read the game, wasn't true.

DRK post 10:

SP seemed more like he was trying to push suspicion onto Flare, whereas Parama just wanted a policy lynch. Wanting a policy lynch is a null tell (well, I think so anyway). Pushing for suspicion on someone, especially while saying he didn't want a lynch for it, just looks like scum trying to make a townie look bad.

Wow dude, why wouldn't you let SP answer the question himself?

[Cuetlachtli]

EBWOP:

This goes back to the same thing I asked DRK at the beginning of the game while we were still in RVS... (why he was voting SP instead of Cue at that point).

Even if it was RVS I think it's interesting that he chose to vote with SP and at this point they seem to be siding.

I'm not saying this is a tell, just interesting to point out.

Sentence doesn't really make sense... I was saying it's interesting DRK decided to vote SP instead of Cue at that point in RVS, and then continued to jab at SP, and is currently siding with Cue. (My use of "siding" here is to be taken loosely...)

Yes and Chamber, your RVS vote, is voting with me too. Look, my initial vote on you was based on a soft scum tell. I wasn't sure if you were scum or not, but it could make for some good discussion. Since I vote for you Seven, both you and SP have strengthened my argument that you both are scum buddies. I mean you defended SP when I asked him a direct question intended for him only. You answered for him, even after I accused you of attempting to deflect attention away from him in the RVS. Also, SP claimed that you weren't acting very scummy at all when there wasn't that much content to make such a bold judgment. At that point in the game, we were barely out of RVS and the jist of what you posted was your opinion about RVS. You also made an outrageous claim that SP was town and that you answered my question for SP because you don't want to see a town get lynched. How the **** do you know that SP is town at this point in the game? Basically, the entire game, he has been bickering back and forth with DRK. FMPOV, there is absolutely no evidence that suggests that either of them are town. In mafia, only scum know who everyone is aligned with, so you and SP suggesting that each other is town is very scummy to me. Especially since there has been very little content to go by thus far.

Now about this question:

Btw peeps, Seven isn't looking very scummy,

however, DRK is. He is, in fact, the only person in this game that looks to be pushing suspicion on anyone, and I agree with him on that one fact, pushing unwarranted on someone is pretty freaking scummy.

Can you cite where DRK pushed suspicion on people please?

...

DRK post 1:

Vote: SeerPenguin

You and Cuetlachtli confirmed too close together (and were 10th and 11th). You must be scum. Discuss.

Also, you get my vote for not explaining your joke

DRK post 4:

Not only did he simul-confirm with Cuet, he also gave a joke without explanation. Withholding information is scummy.

I srongly suspect from this post that I'm going to find you scummy no matter what you do. I recently encountered someone with a similar tone to his posts and played the entire game (okay, so it only lasted two days...) thinking he was scum. Do you think it's scummy that I just gave myself an excuse to suspect you whenever I want?

DRK post 9:

Scummy. SP seemed intent on putting unwarranted suspicion on Flare. SP was implicitly affirming his statement from his previous post that Flare was a "detriment to the town," even though his reason, that Flare hadn't read the game, wasn't true.

DRK post 10:

SP seemed more like he was trying to push suspicion onto Flare, whereas Parama just wanted a policy lynch. Wanting a policy lynch is a null tell (well, I think so anyway). Pushing for suspicion on someone, especially while saying he didn't want a lynch for it, just looks like scum trying to make a townie look bad.

SP claimed that DRK had been pushing suspicion on anyone; meaning, FMPOV, that DRK had been trying to make cases on multiple people. I reread the thread and decided that DRK had only been pushing suspicion on SP only. I asked SP to cite where DRK had pushed suspicion on people because I knew that DRK had only pushed suspicion on SP and I wanted to get his reaction. What I got was both you and SP's reactions and they both were fail. Both of you only cited where DRK had pushed suspicion on SP. No where did I find where DRK had pushed suspicion on other people. Thus, I think SP's initial claim was an example of the straw man fallacy. The straw man fallacy is an attack of an exaggerated position. SP exaggerated DRK's position by claiming that he had been pushing suspicion on anyone. In actuality, DRK had only pushed suspicion on SP himself.

[Cuetlachtli]

Parama explain how my posts are odd please.

[Cuetlachtli]

Okay, first off, Homer - what kind of case do you have against Idiotking that makes him look scummy to you? Aggressive play CAN be scummy but not always - I have had a first-hand experience with this misconception which lead to me focusing more on a fellow townie than anyone else.

Parama explain how my posts are odd please.

Okay, let's look at some particular posts.

1.

Seems like Seven is trying to free SP, a potential scum buddy, of some early pressure. Its strange to me that Seven would take issue to DRK voting SP when he himself voted Chamber for very similar reasons.

That said...

vote: Seven

Your reason for Seven being scum assumed that SeerPenguin was scum as well, providing nothing leading to this assumption.

2.

Oh boy, scum-group speculation this early?

Cuet, do you understand why saying Seven is scum because he was defending hypo-scum me doesn't make any sense, considering I have not yet been revealed (As scum or otherwise), and that argument would not work unless I was revealed as scum. Therefore, your vote on Seven is based on me being scum, so why say you that I am scum?

This reaction and you subsequently saying that Seven isn't being very scummy without presenting an argument why Seven isn't being very scummy strengthens my argument that both you and Seven are scum buddies.

Also, earlier you took a jab at Parama for helping facilitate a town discussion. IMO, town discussion is always good even if the discussion is started by scum. A game with lurkers and no content is bad for the town, while a game with discussion and content is good for the town.

Also, Seven advised you and DRK to quit arguing earlier. I think arguing is good for the town because it adds to the discussion. He is scummy for trying to diffuse you guys' argument.

So from my calculations, you and Seven have tried to defend each other three times already in this very short game. Really the only people who would have incentive to defend someone are scum because they don't have strength in numbers like the town does. You and Seven defending each other makes me very suspicious of the both of you.

You misrep'd SP's opening comment to my questions (which I did not see as a personal attack btw, don't see how you would) which just bothers me.
Also, your comment about arguing... it can lead to discussion, but if the argument uses terrible logic both ways and is based on an RVS vote, I would have to agree that it's pointless and is distracting from scumhunting. Basically, arguing is a double-edged sword in this way - it can help catch scum, but if two townies are arguing it can also distract attention away from scum. And DRK vs SP was more of a distraction than anything.
Next, defending others isn't always a scummy thing to do (though a majority of the time it is), but you seem to imply it always is. Not trying to role speculate here, but what if one has a role that's leading him to defend the other for a pro-town reason? It's not out of the question. Or maybe it's a gut reads on each other that are leading to defense? Or a newbie reacting to being defended as town by defending the one who is defending him? ...okay WIFOM alert moving on...

3.

Btw peeps, Seven isn't looking very scummy,

however, DRK is. He is, in fact, the only person in this game that looks to be pushing suspicion on anyone, and I agree with him on that one fact, pushing unwarranted on someone is pretty freaking scummy.

Can you cite where DRK pushed suspicion on people please?

*quotes*

SP claimed that DRK had been pushing suspicion on anyone; meaning, FMPOV, that DRK had been trying to make cases on multiple people. I reread the thread and decided that DRK had only been pushing suspicion on SP only. I asked SP to cite where DRK had pushed suspicion on people because I knew that DRK had only pushed suspicion on SP and I wanted to get his reaction. What I got was both you and SP's reactions and they both were fail. Both of you only cited where DRK had pushed suspicion on SP. No where did I find where DRK had pushed suspicion on other people. Thus, I think SP's initial claim was an example of the straw man fallacy. The straw man fallacy is an attack of an exaggerated position. SP exaggerated DRK's position by claiming that he had been pushing suspicion on anyone. In actuality, DRK had only pushed suspicion on SP himself.

And this here comes off as an attempt to defend DRK by defending his suspicions. Like I said, this isn't inherently scummy by itself, but now you're contradicting yourself. Which IS scummy.

Honestly, something feels off about Cuetlachtli now that I examine his posts even more. I don't like his posting at all.

Vote: Cuetlachtli

partly for his posts and partly for the terrible gut read I'm getting on him.

Seven, you don't need to and in fact SHOULDN'T be responding to every post about you. It makes you look like you're scrambling for any chance to defend yourself and then saying as much as possible in an attempt to look more townie. And tbh I'm barely even reading your posts anymore. Just a lot of pointless fluff intermixed with defensive points. If you want to convince us you're not scum, you're going to have to help the town find the scum. And your posts are nearly devoid of scumhunting.

Dana, being anti-RVS is not scummy. RVS, honestly, is pointless for the most part. Trying to find a direction for conversation to take off is its only purpose; the rest of it is mostly pointless votes with BS reasons. But some find it fun, while others do not. I personally have a blast in the RVS because there's no real stress at that point. And I already explained my stance on aggressive posting.

1.

I did explain my assumption that SP and Seven were scum buddies. In my first game on MS, I was scum. On D1, my scum buddy was under pressure for his lack of pro-activity. I saw another player that acted the same as my scum buddy so I tried to deflect attention on to the innocent player. No one saw this scum slip until the endgame and I ultimately got lynched because of it.

Now in the RVS, DRK said that SP and me had to be scum buddies because we confirmed at the same time. Right after DRK posted that, Seven asked DRK why he would vote SP and not me. It seemed to me like a noob scum slip for two reasons. First, why would anyone actually take RVS seriously? And two, it seemed like Seven was trying to get pressure off SP while pushing suspicion onto me. It was a soft tell and I made the decision to vote Seven for it. At that point in time I wasn't really sold that Seven was scum. But he hasn't given me a reason to unvote thus far.

2.

Ok when I was scum last game, I took little jabs at the townie that was trying to lead the town. SP's comment reminded me of my comments from last game.

Now you said something like SP and DRK were using terrible logic in attacking each other. Umm....last time I checked, scum use terrible logic. Why would you want to stop this? Now I can understand if they take up the entire Day arguing, but the fact is they didn't argue for that long. We still had plenty of time left in the Day to scum hunt.

You mentioned that defending someone isn't always scummy. Well that is true, but the fact remains that both SP and Seven defended each other when there wasn't that much content available to make such a bold judgment. Look, SP said that Seven wasn't acting very scummy when really his only posts were about his philosophy oh RVS. Well of course that is not scummy. RVS is a controversial issue and a lot of people are against it. My point is that at that point in the game, there was no evidence that suggested that anybody was town. SP and Seven made the point in emphasizing that the reason they were defending each other is because they don't want to see a town lynched. This strengthens my argument that they are scum buddying because I haven't seen any evidence thus far that suggests ANYBODY is town.

Also you mentioned that "Next, defending others isn't always a scummy thing to do

(though a majority of the time it is)

. It seems like you are trying to allude to Seven's counter argument that I am "scum budding" with DRK. This has been noted, thank you.

Power roles. PR's haven't been activated yet since we haven't gone through a night yet, therefore a PR has no reason to defend a townie.

3.

I wasn't defending DRK at all. TY for misrepresenting my argument. Let me reiterate it.

SP claimed that DRK was pushing suspicion on anyone. In other words, SP was arguing that DRK was making fallacious attacks on various people. In actuality, besides RVS, DRK only attacked SP. I interpret SP's attack on DRK as straw manning, which is a scum tactic. I wanted to see how SP responded to my question, but instead of SP answering himself, Seven did for him. This strengthened my argument that Seven and SP are scum buddies because really only SP should be able to answer that particular question. It wasn't an obvious answer like Seven claims it was because I was asking SP where DRK had pushed suspicion on people. Seven only cited where DRK had pushed suspicion on SP. Thus, Seven unintentionally strengthened my argument that SP was strawmanning DRK.

I can see how you can misinterpret what I just said as a defense of DRK. But in actuality, it is an attack on SP.

Also, Parama, you telling Seven what to do is pretty scummy to me. If we do lynch Seven and he does flip town, we can always look back at today and identify the scummy arguments that led to Seven's lynch. If Seven really is a noob town, you shouldn't try to teach him the right way to play until the game is over. In my last game anyways, my scum buddy and I took advantage of the noobs by making fallacious arguments about them. It seemed like we were going to get away with murder, but in the end the town identified our fallacious arguments and ended up winning the game.

It seems to me like 2 out of 3 scummies are being pressured by the town right now and Parama (scum number 3) is trying to scramble and engineer a mislynch on someone other than scum. If we do lynch Seven and he flips scum, SP is almost guaranteed to be scum and with 2 out of 3 scum out of the game, it would make it very hard for that last scum to win.

"Dana, being anti-RVS is not scummy. RVS, honestly, is pointless for the most part. Trying to find a direction for conversation to take off is its only purpose; the rest of it is mostly pointless votes with BS reasons. But some find it fun, while others do not. I personally have a blast in the RVS because there's no real stress at that point. And I already explained my stance on aggressive posting."

Yes RVS is pointless right? So why don't you find it scummy that Seven was bothered by DRK's RVS vote on SP?

Anyways, I am keeping my vote on Seven and

FoS

on SP and Parama.

[Cuetlachtli]

Cuetlachtli:

I just noticed how early on you stated this: "Seems like Seven is trying to free SP, a potential scum buddy, of some early pressure. Its strange to me that Seven would take issue to DRK voting SP when he himself voted Chamber for very similar reasons." [ISO 3]

At this point in the game I think that was the only thing I had said linking me to SP. It was RVS, and I did think it was weird considering DRKs reasoning that he would choose to vote SP over you without saying why. Despite this I didn't think it meant anything at the time and the question was a joke. Considering how the game has unfolded I think it could be relevant now. The fact that I eventually ended up siding with SP for various reasons is circumstancial. I did "defend" him later on, as you called it, by answering for him. But my RVS question does not defend him in any way that I can perceive. I was curious, but I didn't push the matter further until now. I want to know how, at that stage in the game, you already thought I was defending SP when there was no real reason to believe so?

In ISO 5 you said I tried to diffuse DRK and SPs argument which is true. I'm not the only person who thinks the argument was distracting and useless for the purposes of hunting. You said later on in response to Parama's accusations that they eventually stopped fighting and so it was no threat to the hunt, but you fail to acknowledge the reason they stopped bickering in the first place which is because some of us pointed out that it was leading nowhere. I think it's strange that you would encourage their argument. You say it could lead to tells. So I want to know what you were able to gather from the DRK/SP argument?

Not only did you start the 7/SP lynch-chain, but now you're adding Parama as a third lynch. I can't express enough how scummy this is. You started off by tunneling on me for mediocre reasons (I think in general everyone has had good reasons for their votes, yours seems to be one of the weaker ones) and now you're trying to have everyone focus on SP and Parama next, with hardly anything to base your arguments on (in the case of Par, at least). In what circumstance do you think it's beneficial to set up your next three lynches?

Seven, I hope you realize I have already answered your first two questions in previous posts.

Question 1, my ISO 3

In my one and only game on this site, I was scum. On D1, my scum buddy was being pressured and I tried to divert attention away from him by asking his attacker why he was ignoring another player who was displaying relatively the same behavior as my scum buddy. After my scum buddy was lynched, the town realized my scum slip and I was, in turn, lynched.

I believe there may be some diverting going on in this game. As you know, DRK voted SP and FoSed me for confirming at the same time. Really, this shouldn't be a big deal. Its RVS, therefore votes or FoS shouldn't be taken seriously. But it seems like one player did take DRK's vote seriously. After DRK voted for SP, Seven emulated DRK's reasoning for voting SP by voting Chamber because he was the "last to confirm." This maybe an early Scum attempting to buddy Town tactic. Right after Seven voted Chamber, he asked DRK a direct question:

"DRK: Why vote SeerPenguin and not Cuetlachtli? Do you have something against penguins?"

Seems like Seven is trying to free SP, a potential scum buddy, of some early pressure. Its strange to me that Seven would take issue to DRK voting SP when he himself voted Chamber for very similar reasons.

That said...vote: Seven

Question 2, my ISO 7

SP claimed that DRK had been pushing suspicion on anyone; meaning, FMPOV, that DRK had been trying to make cases on multiple people. I reread the thread and decided that DRK had only been pushing suspicion on SP only. I asked SP to cite where DRK had pushed suspicion on people because I knew that DRK had only pushed suspicion on SP and I wanted to get his reaction. What I got was both you and SP's reactions and they both were fail. Both of you only cited where DRK had pushed suspicion on SP. No where did I find where DRK had pushed suspicion on other people. Thus, I think SP's initial claim was an example of the straw man fallacy. The straw man fallacy is an attack of an exaggerated position. SP exaggerated DRK's position by claiming that he had been pushing suspicion on anyone. In actuality, DRK had only pushed suspicion on SP himself.

Now on to your third question...

Not only did you start the 7/SP lynch-chain, but now you're adding Parama as a third lynch. I can't express enough how scummy this is. You started off by tunneling on me for mediocre reasons (I think in general everyone has had good reasons for their votes, yours seems to be one of the weaker ones) and now you're trying to have everyone focus on SP and Parama next, with hardly anything to base your arguments on (in the case of Par, at least). In what circumstance do you think it's beneficial to set up your next three lynches?

First off, I believe everyone that is voting/FoS you is doing it for the same reasons I am voting you. That said, how are their reasons good and my reasons mediocre?

Ok now my case on Par:

Well besides Par misrepresenting my attack on SP's fallacious statement about DRK earlier, let me point out some other stuff that Par has done that I see as scummy.

Par ISO 12-13

Par advocates a policy lynch on Flareonage based on his meta. Par argues that Flareonage is basically a fail player and is always anti-town regardless of his alignment. What Par ignores is that a policy lynch is also anti-town because lynching solely based on meta means that we have only a 25% chance of hitting scum.

Par ISO 11

Early buddying with SP and a FoS on DRK.

Par ISO 16

More DRK bashing. Says he is bothered by my vote on Seven, thinks its fallacious logic. Yet states that there might be a Seven-SP scum team. This contradiction really perplexes me.

Par ISO 17

I can't tell whether Par is scumhunting here or giving advise to scum-teammate Seven. Regardless, Par says that my posts have been odd, but immediately contradicts himself by FoSing Seven and SP.

Par ISO 18

Misrepresents all of my arguments, contradicts himself by ignoring his previous FoSes on Seven and SP (which he got from my arguments), and finally commits a vote on me. Also, gives more advise to Seven.

Par ISO 20

Says he isn't getting town vibes from anyone, which basically means he is open to lynch anyone, as long as they aren't his scum buddies. Says he thinks you, Seven, are scummy, but says that I am scummier. This ignores the fact that the reason he thinks you are scummy is because I have pointed out your scummy behavior. This logic does not make sense to me at all.

In what circumstance do you think it's beneficial to set up your next three lynches?

Well if we do lynch you, Seven, and you do flip scum, I think its good for the town to know who I FoS in case I am Night Killed. I think the more content you can provide while you are able, the better for the town. If you are ever NKed or lynched, the town can always go back and analyze your previous posts and hopefully it will provide them with some useful insights into the game.

[Cuetlachtli]

Seven is the best lynch. He has claimed vanilla (or at least hasn't contested ppl calling him a vanilla). Generally, ppl consider him scummy. And finally, he has possible connections with 2-3 other players. Because of his possible connections with ppl and his vanilla claim, a Seven lynch could provide us with a lot of information without outing any Power Roles. If Seven does flip scum, then SP, Parama, and Dana are all likely scum partners. If Seven flips town, Thor and myself should get looked at closely for pushing so hard for a Seven lynch. Basically its a win-win for the town because there has been so much discussion about Seven's alignment. I am pretty sure that everyone has taken a position on what side they think Seven is on. Therefore, a Seven lynch should provide us with some clues on who is scum or not since we can judge who was being sincere in their comments about Seven on Day 1.

[Cuetlachtli]

I would prefer to be replaced out of this game. I don't have as much time as expected, so I only want one game on my plate at a time. Sorry.

Can you address some of the recent comments about you being scum before you leave please?

[Cuetlachtli]

Seven is the best lynch. He has claimed vanilla (or at least hasn't contested ppl calling him a vanilla). Generally, ppl consider him scummy. And finally, he has possible connections with 2-3 other players.

None of these are the reasons we should be lynching him. If we're going to lynch him it should be because he did something scummy. Public opinion is never a good reason to kill someone.

This post completely ignores the arguments that I have been making all game. Seven has acted scummy and he does have ties with a couple other players in the game. Lynching him will give us a lot of useful information and will be beneficial to our scum hunt tomorrow.

[Cuetlachtli]

@Thor: I generally dislike policy lynches in general.

I'd go for it I felt he was suspicious, but I generally don't.

----

Anyway, we have until Saturday for a lynch, and

I'm willing to wait as long as possible until we come to a conclusion. I will post more thoughts tomorrow.

LS, who are you suspicious of?

[Cuetlachtli]

To Parama and IK:

All game I have been saying Seven is scummy. I assumed that you guys and everyone else knew my position on Seven.

To everyone:

Ok I just skimmed over everyone's ISO and it seems that everyone has voted or FOSed Seven except for Dana and LS. SP sort of FOSed Seven at the end of his time here, but it seemed kind of weak to me. SP's replacement, Radical, seems to be adopting SP's earlier FOS's. In other words, he thinks Seven is town and DRK is scum.

That said, everyone except LS has given an opinion on Seven. If we were to lynch Seven, we will learn what side he is on. We can then take what everyone has said about Seven and judge whether it was sincere or not.

This is also the safest lynch for us since Seven claimed nilla.

Also, as Parama mentioned, Seven has been inactive since he gave his town reads. Either he is inactive or he is active lurking. Really, I don't like this behavior at all. Both Seven and SP have turned into flakes ever since the town considered lynching them. All the while, it looks like the town has become distracted with other suspects.

What problems do you guys have with my logic on a Seven lynch?

and

How would a Seven lynch be bad for the town?

and

If there is a better lynch than Seven, convince me why I should support that lynch.

[Cuetlachtli]

I am down to lynch Seven or Radical/SP.

[Cuetlachtli]

Look, three people have addressed concern about post 303 where I argued for a Seven lynch, but left out what I specifically found scummy about Seven. All game I have been saying Seven is scummy, so I assumed that all of you knew my position on Seven. Earlier in the game, SP, Seven, and Parama all contested my suspicions of SP and Seven, so I ended up having to restate my case 3-4 times. I figured I had beaten the horse to death before writing post 303. So rather then restate my case a 5th time, I decided I would inform all of you about the strategic benefits of a Seven lynch.

Now that you all know my reasoning for writing post 303 like I did, I challenge you to review my ISO and look for any inconsistencies in my arguments concerning Seven. I think a review of my ISO will show you all that I have been suspicious of Seven all game and that I have restated my case multiple times.

[Cuetlachtli]

If there is a better lynch than Seven, convince me why I should support that lynch.

I don't think you'd want to support a lynch on yourself, so I'm not going to give you reasons why.

Um no...if you think I would be a good lynch choice, I want you to argue your case.

[Cuetlachtli]

Howdy. I promise not to flake, no slot should ever need more than 2 replacements.

Just finished reading the thread, and the scumminess is overwhelming. However, a few things jumped out. Seven spent some time defending SP,but dana spent a lot of time defending Seven. Seven's PBPA seemed a lot more like deflecting than any real attempt at analysis.

I disagree with the concept that Vanilla Townies are expendable assets.

Radical's observation of DRK's wagon-switch as soon as Seven claimed vanilla was interesting.

A lynch of Seven or dana would provide useful data.

Vote: danakillsu

I completely agree with this post. Now that we got a vanilla claim from danakillsu....

unvote, vote: danakillsu

On another note...Parama, I would appreciate if you made your case about me before the end of today.

[Cuetlachtli]

@ Cuet: I don't have time to put my arguments since I first mentioned a case against you. I'll try to get it put together during the night phase and will post it ASAP once Day 2 starts, assuming I'm alive to post it.

Oh christ. Well if I get NKed, I hope the town makes you post your case on me. I think its scummy that you had your vote on me for so long without telling us your case.

[Cuetlachtli]

Cuet (btw, if you want the basis of my vote you can look back to when I first voted <_<)

So basically you think my case on Seven and SP is scummy? If that is the case, then why did you, in other parts in your ISO, FoS Seven and SP for being possible scum buddies? Aren't you contradicting yourself by adopting elements of my case on 7 and SP, yet at the same time, finding me scummy for the same case?

[Cuetlachtli]

I'm not saying that's my current case, I'm saying that's where my case started.

So you aren't denying the contradiction?

[Cuetlachtli]

Bah! X_X

[Cuetlachtli]

Going back and looking that was pretty good play by Parama/Seven. No one had that team as much of a consideration (except for Jack during the mid point of his game time here - and apparently I was the schmuck who managed to help edge him away from it)

Everyone either had Parama or Seven, but nobody was on to both.

Since the game is basically over...I am going jump into the discussion.

Actually I had Parama and Seven as scum buddies on Day 1. That is why they killed me during the night. I thought my interaction with Parama at the end of Day 1 and my subsequent death made it obvious that Parama was up to something. I was disappointed that no one made an issue about it in Day 2 or later.

Parama or Seven, can you please post a link to your quicktopic?

[Cuetlachtli]

Dead people quicktopic:

http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/dqWQqU66tfZz

[Cuetlachtli]

Wow Parama you are very lucky ES and Seven choose to NK me because you and Seven were pretty obvious scum buddies FMPOV.

Question to Thor, Jack and Neto:

Didn't you guys think it was odd that Seven and Parama weren't really contributing at all during Day 4?

also

You guys realize that you were at MYLO so you could have NLed on Day 4, giving you another day to have a more thorough discussion of the game?

It was very disappointing to me because you let Parama get away with not posting all of his ISOs, especially his one on Seven which could have potentially been game changing.

[Cuetlachtli]

Ok well I am seeing a lot of "I thought Seven and Parama were scummy I just didn't know why" comments. I have found many, many scum tells that were committed at one point or another by each of the scum team members. Since I don't want to write an essay that very well won't be read, I have devised an exercise that is a very good at improving scum hunting and is also low risk for me.

I am going to list all the scum tells that I identified in the game and I want who ever is willing to participate in this exercise to identify the thread page or the particular player's ISO number. Then we will discuss the identified event and tell as a group. If no one decides to participate in this exercise, then GG, GL, and see you out there.

Scum Tells:

Information Instead of Analyze (IIoA) https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... .28IIoA.29

Chainsaw Defense (Tarhalindur Version) https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... Version.29

Distancing https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Distancing

Bussing https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bussing

Speedlynch https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Speedlynch

Appeal to Emotion https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... to_Emotion

Straw Man https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Strawman

Informed Minority (Players seeming to know much more than they should. i.e. "Play X is town" instead of "

If

player X is town")

Gloating https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ding_Mafia

Stalling

That is all I have at the moment. If anybody else observed any other scum tell, please share. Happy hunting!

[Cuetlachtli]

Sure

[Cuetlachtli]

Cuet, it's pretty easy to say that all of the scum committed a lot of tells since Dragonfly told you who the scum were not so long after you died and you've been reading the game with that knowledge. It's not unlikely that had you lived, you would have changed your mind on Parama and Seven at least somewhat.

No ES it was obvious that Parama was Seven's scum buddy to me on Day 1. The only thing that would have confused me tremendously is if we had lynched SP on Day 1. You actually suggested an SP lynch over a Seven lynch in your first post, which should have been a red flag to all of the remaining players who read your ISO after you flipped scum.

[Cuetlachtli]

Cuet, it's pretty easy to say that all of the scum committed a lot of tells since Dragonfly told you who the scum were not so long after you died and you've been reading the game with that knowledge. It's not unlikely that had you lived, you would have changed your mind on Parama and Seven at least somewhat.

Yes, this happens in every dead quicktopic

I don't really pick out those tells that much. I couldn't say where they dropped them, and don't find it convincing when people just say "such and such a tell".

Ok have it your way Jack. I don't see how your approach is very pro-town. Even though your "gut reads" were pretty good, how do you expect to convince the town that "so and so" are scum if you don't present a case? Players that don't articulate why they think someone is scum, come off as scum themselves and end up having little credibility with the town.

IMO, I think that is something you should work on.