Mini 911 - Mike's Pizzeria Mafia (Game Over)

[evilsnail]

Yeah, considering that the deadline is TUESDAY, I'd like to see some more decisiveness from others. We can't just sit around waiting for replacements forever.

[PJ.]

Well than My order of lynchness is Danakills, DRK, Radical, and then Seven

[Parama]

Kk and here's the rest of the catch-up work I need to be doing.

I'm really not liking how Thor seems so eager to get Seven lynched. There were the comments earlier about how we shouldn't lynch anyone else because Seven claimed townie (which isn't far from the truth, but he seemed to be too adamant about it). Since then, he's made the following post:

But this here is what displeases me with the situation. You're now setting up a lynch of someone else (though I will admit no displeasure in seeing it be SeerPenguin) but you're already laying the groundwork for the eventual policy lynch of Seven for Day 2+ It doesn't seem to help our situation going into Day 2 with people who think Seven is a good policy lynch. If he's a policy lynch on Day 2 then let's bloody well lynch him now so we can focus on better scumhunting then and not give Scum a potential townie lynch in addition to having knowledge of Seven as a policy lynch for Day 2+

There's something about that quote that I don't like and I'm not sure exactly what. I think it has something to do with him slipping in how we should just lynch Seven today based on his interpretation of someone else's post. Well, whatever it is, I don't like this post.

I actually agree with Thor's logic here, if we're already setting up a Seven lynch for the future then holding it off another day doesn't help - could result in a short Day 2 with nothing gained because of a quick policy lynch. It would only help the scum even if Seven is scum, just because of the little amount of discussion that would go into it on Day 2. Unless I'm horribly misinterpreting his post, which is possible.

Lynching Seven right now is terrible and honestly, lynching him tomorrow would be similarly terrible. Thor(and everyone else) has been ignoring is that Seven could be lying to protect his PR. Everyone knows that if you claim a PR you're gonna get blasted, so there is a good incentive for PRs to claim vanilla D1 as well.

First of all, a PR shouldn't do that because claiming vanilla is likely to get you lynched if you're in claim territory. Second of all, if you really believe this to be the case, why the hell would you point it out???

I'm with DRK here, even if he had power role, claiming vanilla so close to lynch won't help. More often than not, town is fine with lynching vanilla claims, and if he had a power role, he should have outed it. And the second point DRK brings up here... I really like it. Pointing something like that out pretty much ruins the purpose of hiding it in the first place - if Seven is a PR and he claimed vanilla, why would you go out of your way to attack his claim? It would only increase his chanced of getting NKed.

I'm definently ready to lynch danakillsu. I don't even want a claim

Wow. I've never seen this kind of brutality before. A little rushed, are we?

Actually, considering that Panzer had been holding out on voting you in favor of a DRK lynch, plus having motive before the vote, it's not really THAT surprising.

So I "seemed" too adamant when pushing a concept you agree was reasonably the truth? And, for the record, I'll note how I was inviting people to please disabuse me of the notion that made me want to lynch Seven.

I said it's not far from the truth, not that it's "reasonably" the truth. My point is that you've been taking the stance that we should lynch Seven no matter what, which comes off to me as you either trying to mislynch a town-Seven or defend someone else who might come under pressure (or both).

Again, Thor's logic for wanting a Seven lynch makes sense, though the motive may be off. Summarizing it for him: "Seven will probably get lynched either today or tomorrow, but if he gets lynched quickly tomorrow the town will lose a day they could have spent hunting for other scum, so it would be better to lynch him today." That's what I'm getting from it.
And then what disturbs me is that Thor switched his vote to SeerPenguin. Which is troubling me a bit seeing how hard Thor has been pushing on the Seven wagon.

Just a quick question here:

If you knew it was unfair, then why did you mention it

at all

? I think Thor's right, you're trying to make it sound as if Thor's suspicious without telling us why.

Posts like these are why I aggressive play isn't a scumtell. Just thought I'd point that out. Not trying to defend any player in particular here. But this is aggressive play and a great point as well. Hopefully DRK responded to this, will be looking for it.
Instead of responding to Thor's 337, I want to bring up a point - Dana only gave impressions on about half the players, and then asked if the town wanted him to continue. Makes me feel that he was unsure about going further because he might have to do reads of his buddies, and wasn't sure of what kind of read he should be getting to appease the town the most. Just what I'm taking from it, not necessarily true of course.

Good question. The answer is that I found myself in a position of having to sort of OMGUS vote. But that's the way it has to be. I also wanted the answer to my question to everyone.

vote: Panzer

BEEP. You changed your FoS to a vote immediately after Idiotking called you out for not voting. Which comes off as me as simply trying to appeal to other players as to avoid a lynch yourself. Which is in itself very scummy.

FoS: Danakillsu

@Radical Hijinx - welcome to the thread. Could you kindly go back over Seer Penguin's posts and let us know which ones you agree with, and which you don't? He had a few pushes and I'd like to see where you stand on them and his actions.

Looking over his ISO his only serious vote was on DRK and he was never as heavily into the seven lynch. Good intentions if not always good articulation would be my overall analysis

Regardless of his intentions, SP's overdefensiveness of Seven comes off as scum trying to defend scum. Not saying that it make you scum, and I don't like when people use bias from people who were replaced as the basis for a case on the people who replaced them, but if you honestly disagree with SP's actions then feel free to point out what you disagree with. If you don't see why people were suspicious of him then I have to assume you're either ignoring it and don't know how to make up for it or you don't exactly realize why it's scummy.

If you knew it was unfair, then why did you mention it at all?

I saw it and decided I should tell someone.
"But it's unfair to use it without saying what it is!"
"Oh, too late, I already typed it."
"But it's unfair!"
"So?"
"..."
"Whatever, I'll just put a disclaimer with it."

Not sure that makes any sense, but that was roughly my thought process for that (and yes, I have conversations with myself in my head ).

If you didn't want to post it and were worried that people would call you out for it, you shouldn't have posted it in the first place. If you feel something you say is going to incriminate you, regardless of your original intention, then you should get rid of it. It only causes unnecessary arguing and a distraction from scumhunting when you knowingly do something scummy.

Seven is probably 'nilla townie, DRK seems to be the most scummy. Not to say I would not comprimise on a Dana lynch if thats where the majority was going at deadline and we needed to avoid no lynch.

Ugh, again your posting is bothering me. The problem I have is that you're willingly accepting all of SP's arguments and beliefs as your own without questioning them. It's like you're trying to be the same person - and when the original person did do plenty of things that cast suspicion on him I don't see why you would continue where he left off if where he left off feels like the wrong place to be for you personally. You're looking more and more like scum every time you post.

Okay, here's my philosophy on mafia: scum don't always act scummy. Sometimes, scum is just scum and there doesn't need to be any sort of rhyme or reason.

For example, when I'm scum, you're not likely to pick up many legitimate tells against me, if at all.

Scum can't avoid dropping scumtells for one, solely because scumtells are something scum intentionally have to do, whereas town may end up doing scummy things inadvertently that aren't necessarily scumtells. And that last line I bolded just comes off as... cockiness more than anything. And it's really really bothering me.

FoS: DeathRowKitty

What problems do you guys have with my logic on a Seven lynch?

The fact that your logic in the post where you gave your reasons why Seven would be a good lynch excluded the fact that you yourself find Seven scummy, and then you had to make up for this in a later post.

How would a Seven lynch be bad for the town?

I don't feel it would be a bad lynch.

If there is a better lynch than Seven, convince me why I should support that lynch.

I don't think you'd want to support a lynch on yourself, so I'm not going to give you reasons why.

I could say the same about Thor as I did about DRK. Seems focused on tunneling SeerPenguin more than trying to scumhunt.

Considering DRK suggested I was pushing too hard on trying to get Seven lynched I shall rest secure that at least one of you is wrong and will note in my defense that in the very post you noted this in you also later quoted me while I was scumhunting on evilsnail and managed to find his logical fallacy.

I pooh pooh upon your thought that I am not scumhunting.

I'm willing to admit that I misread your post quoted earlier. When I looked over it, especially with that last line, it came off as wanting a SP lynch more than anything, though looking at your other posts and looking closer at that post it looks like you'd be up for either a Seven/SP lynch.
And of course both have been replaced and I'm too lazy to remember the replacement's name right now.

I'm leaving off here because I'm going to be gone for the next few hours. Probably going to finish up my read later.
tl;dr:

FoS: danakillsu, DeathRowKitty, Radical Hijinx

Combining this with my last big post, I am now suspicious of half the people in this game it seems. Narrowing down comes later kk.

[Cuetlachtli]

I am down to lynch Seven or Radical/SP.

[Cuetlachtli]

Look, three people have addressed concern about post 303 where I argued for a Seven lynch, but left out what I specifically found scummy about Seven. All game I have been saying Seven is scummy, so I assumed that all of you knew my position on Seven. Earlier in the game, SP, Seven, and Parama all contested my suspicions of SP and Seven, so I ended up having to restate my case 3-4 times. I figured I had beaten the horse to death before writing post 303. So rather then restate my case a 5th time, I decided I would inform all of you about the strategic benefits of a Seven lynch.

Now that you all know my reasoning for writing post 303 like I did, I challenge you to review my ISO and look for any inconsistencies in my arguments concerning Seven. I think a review of my ISO will show you all that I have been suspicious of Seven all game and that I have restated my case multiple times.

[Dragonfly13]

Votecount #10

danakillsu (3) - Idiotking, Panzerjager, evilsnail
Radical Hijinx (1) - Thor665
DeathRowKitty (1) - Radical Hijinx
Seven (1) - Cuetlachtli
Idiotking (1) - Lastsurvivor
Parama (1) - DeathRowKitty
Cuetlachtli (1) - Parama
Panzerjager (1) - danakillsu


Not Voting (2) - Seven, DeathSauce


With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: 11:00PM U.S. Central Time, Tuesday, February 2, 2010

DeathSauce replaces DiamondCrash.
Note: This will be the final deadline for D1.

[Cuetlachtli]

If there is a better lynch than Seven, convince me why I should support that lynch.

I don't think you'd want to support a lynch on yourself, so I'm not going to give you reasons why.

Um no...if you think I would be a good lynch choice, I want you to argue your case.

[Lastsurvivor]

@Cuet: To be fair, I have offered my opinion on Seven. I don't think that he was very suspicious, to be honest. The only thing that stuck out to me was the playing of the newbie card, and his odd backing of SP.

What problems do you guys have with my logic on a Seven lynch?

and

How would a Seven lynch be bad for the town?

and

If there is a better lynch than Seven, convince me why I should support that lynch.

General response to the first two: I don't like policy lynches, really. Maybe when it's a useless townie, but Seven wasn't while he was active, at least. Your logic is alright, I suppose, but I just don't think that a Seven lynch is the best way to go. I just did an iso on him, and most of the arguments that were against him seemed to be sloppy. Your's and Thor's are noticeable exceptions (even though I still don't exactly agree). A lynch wouldn't be bad for the town, since he's been the center of attention for a while, but I don't like lynching a useful member of the game.

For the third: I'm still really digging a dana lynch. There's the case against IK, which I still think had absolutely no backing. One thing I did notice that he asks for a defense from Seven in ISO Post 1, even though he gives absolutely nothing for Seven to defend against. He even defends Seven in ISO Post 2, even though he asks for a defense again in Iso Post 3.

I've already offered an opinion on the PbP analysis he did, but I noticed that it seemed to lack the detail that Seven did. I definitely stand by what I said earlier now. He was trying to copy Seven because he thought that it would 'lax the suspicion on him, but he wasn't able to provide the content that Seven did. Dana even added some irrelevant content to kind of stretch out his posts (ISO Post 20, 21). Seven also actually directed questions to players. I also don't really like his justification for it either (saying that Seven didn't make up the player by player analysis, so he is copying, also), because it's two different kinds of copying. Seven is doing the PbP analysis because he wants to scumhunt, while Dana's just doing it to lower the suspicion on himself.

Sooo, two questions for Dana:

1) Why did you want Seven to defend himself when you defended him yourself?

2) Were you doing the player by player analysis to actually scum hunt? If so, why didn't you direct any questions to anyone (to be fair, you asked one question, but it seemed more like a question you were asking yourself)?

Vote: danakillsu

My vote's staying here for now.

I also did an iso on Panzer, and I'm really not liking him either. In ISO Post 3 (where he votes for Dana), the way he words his post kind of seems like he's just posted this big ol' case on Dana, when, in all reality, his case was generally weak. Panzer, are you just keeping some of your facts to yourself, or do you feel that the information you showed us is enough to advocate a lynch on Dana?

[DeathRowKitty]

[fake sounding and dispiritedly]Parama's last post and the one before it sit well with me. Grrr. My reads are really bad right now.[/fake sounding and dispiritedly]

Honestly, I didn't have a good grip on this game to begin with and the replacements aren't helping.

Unvote

. I'll have a new vote out tomorrow on someone I think is scummy, even if I have to fight the guy in evilsnail's avatar in the process.

[Idiotking]

From where I'm sitting, dana's the best lynch. He's been wishy-washy all game, has attempted to go with the flow and break under even the slightest bit of pressure, and much more that's already been stated repeatedly. My second favorite lynch would be DRK, again for reasons already stated.

[Thor665]

Okay, I am back from my Saturday away. (Cris Cyborg owned live!)

And then what disturbs me is that Thor switched his vote to SeerPenguin. Which is troubling me a bit seeing how hard Thor has been pushing on the Seven wagon.

I could say the same about Thor as I did about DRK. Seems focused on tunneling SeerPenguin more than trying to scumhunt.

I'm sure I'm missing something somewhere but it seems I could either be focused on tunneling Radical Hijinx (SeerPenguin) or I could be pushing hard on the Seven wagon - doing both is impressive on my part and makes me wonder at the method you are using to come to your conclusions.

Again I pooh pooh your read here - you have managed to point out two of my top suspects who I have openly claimed a few times as two of my top suspects and, shockingly, whichever I suspect the most I actively push on to try to showcase their scumminess to others.

As for my shift from Seven to Radical Hijinx I would say I stated it openly in Post 272 and then later in Post 367 described my current reasons for voting as I am - I don't feel this shift came out of nowhere as it's pretty easy to see looking over my iso suspicion of both players. I also note that a lot of "look how crazy Thor is pushing on Seven" attitude seems to be vaguely coming from discussions I was having based on the policy lynch attitude of Seven I had. I had those conversations with an openly stated reason in that regard and stand by my thoughts as presented and I argued them because I genuinely needed to be convinced of the strategic advantage to town before I switched my vote. I just don't see the logic behind suggesting I'm tunneling on either one.

[evilsnail]

Just checking in here. I'm going to be

V/LA

for the next two days. Should be able to check in before the deadline rolls around, though.

Atm, I prefer a dana lynch. If not that, I'd be up for a Radical Hijinx/SeerPenguin lynch also.

[DeathSauce]

Howdy. I promise not to flake, no slot should ever need more than 2 replacements.

Just finished reading the thread, and the scumminess is overwhelming. However, a few things jumped out. Seven spent some time defending SP,but dana spent a lot of time defending Seven. Seven's PBPA seemed a lot more like deflecting than any real attempt at analysis.

I disagree with the concept that Vanilla Townies are expendable assets.

Radical's observation of DRK's wagon-switch as soon as Seven claimed vanilla was interesting.

A lynch of Seven or dana would provide useful data.

Vote: danakillsu

[Parama]

I think dana is at L-2 now. I don't want to put him at L-1 without a claim though.
@Thor: I stated earlier that I somewhat misread your post earlier. Kinda caused some confusion and that's why accused you of not scumhunting. And I was wrong

[Parama]

Mod: I believe danakillsu is due for a prod. Last post was 1/28/10 at 3 PM CST.

[Thor665]

I think dana is at L-2 now. I don't want to put him at L-1 without a claim though.
@Thor: I stated earlier that I somewhat misread your post earlier. Kinda caused some confusion and that's why accused you of not scumhunting. And I was wrong

Don't roleclaims usually come at L-1?

I understand you backed off of the 'Thor isn't scumhunting' concept. But in the same post you did that you also noted unease with how I'd switched away from pushing hard at the Seven wagon to voting for SP/Radical Hijinx. I was mostly pointing out where and how that switch had happened. If you hadn't still meant you felt unease about that voting transition I couldn't tell it from your post so felt the clarification was needed.

I also felt the new unease needed to be seen in juxtaposition with the old unease since they seemed reasonably incompatible concepts, as I noted.

[Lastsurvivor]

@Parama: Dana isn't really on on the weekends. Says so in his siggy

[DeathRowKitty]

Okay, I did some iso reads. My primary thoughts:

• A DKU lynch would basically be a shot in the dark. His play here isn't far off from what I've seen of his town meta. Unless this is a policy lynch, we're ready to lynch him based on null tells.
• Dragonfly's been giving mostly vote counts and in general posting no content. Reeks strongly of IIoA.
  Major FoS Dragonfly11
• Vote: DeathSauce
  . He's waffling, posting IIoA, and has some posts that I find horrible. The first one is horrible for obvious reasons. The second one is completely and unnaturally waffly and cautious, which is even worse considering it was his first post with content and he basically came in and voiced suspicion of the leading wagon (well I think he voiced suspicion; it's hard to tell with him hiding behind his Eggoing). (Note: DC was DS's predecessor in this game. Evilgorillaz was before that and he posted no content.)
• In case this wasn't clear earlier, Seven is not a good lynch. (Anyone voting him should give a good reason for the vote ASAP)
• The site is suddenly really slow. I'm done for now.

[Dragonfly13]

danakillsu has been prodded.
Radical Hijinx has requested replacement. Grr. I'm doing the best I can considering the sheer volume of flakes this game has had so far. To be honest, I'm betting by the end of the game there will have been over 20 replacements. I'm considering lengthening the prod times, or perhaps lengthening the amount of time someone has to respond to a prod to resolve this issue, but really this comes down to the players' capabilities of posting once every three or four days. If everyone stopped posting out of nowhere, it wouldn't be my fault, so there isn't much I can do about it. It's only really annoying when the people who replace in decide to leave within a couple days.

How's that for useless fluff?

yay for rants T_T

[danakillsu]

"Umm Idiotking wants me to vote because he said he was weird I wasn't voting so I'll vote"

I'm really tired of this oversimplification of my words. I also wanted an answer to the question I asked, which I said in that same post.
I refuse to defend myself any more based on posts previous to this one. I said what I said, and it's your job to decide whether I'm scum. If I was looking at this as someone else, I would lynch me.
I'm at L-2, so I claim Vanilla Townie. If I am lynched, look carefully at Panzerjager and Idiotking. They would be my major opponents in this game.

[Idiotking]

See, now this annoys me. You refuse to defend yourself: why? Are you admitting that you cannot defend yourself? Are you giving up because big bad town is against you? If you're a townie, show us why we're wrong in suspecting you.

Also, don't appeal to emotions. "If I was looking at this from an outsider's perspective I'd totally lynch me, dudes. Woe is me, my poor pitiful soul."

Also. Tell us how Panzer and I are scummy, and why we should be suspected for opposing you.

Also. Isn't it weird how you say "if I was looking at this as someone else, I would lynch me" and then IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT you say that you want your major opponents lynched? If you agree with us that you're scummy and have openly admitted it, why should we be suspected for lynching you

over something you admitted was scummy?

[DeathRowKitty]

Dragonfly completely ignored my accusations. Obv-scum.

I honestly don't know what to think of DKU. I wouldn't be opposed to his lynch now that he claimed VT.

[Idiotking]

Wait, didn't you say that you thought a DKU lynch would be a shot in the dark/based on nulltells? If that's what you think then why are you suddenly ok with his lynch? A guy can claim vanilla, sure, but would you really be all right with someone who you don't think is scum getting lynched over what you see as nulltells?

[DeathRowKitty]

It all comes back to the whole issue of claiming vanilla. I didn't/don't want to lynch Seven because I think he's town. DKU is suspicious enough that I wouldn't mind his lynch, plus the fact that some legitimate scum tells are null tells for him makes him dangerous later on when we might have to lynch him anyway.

Plus, two claims is enough for one day.

[Idiotking]

How is he suddenly suspicious if he's only ever committed nulltells? Null means null. Scumtells are what's suspicious. People should not get free passes based on meta. If it's a scumtell, it's a scumtell. So, has he made scumtells or nulltells?

You have said that you think it would be a shot in the dark. How is he suspicious now? What has changed besides his claim? Claiming vanilla should have in no way increased how suspicious he was given all that you have said about him.