Open 194- Vengeful Reasons- GAME OVER!

[Budja]

Ha, that never works Jack .
Hello to Tracker and MR too.

vote:Cat

because clearly only scum would vote for me.

[Budja]

Why, I do remember that game (and trust me, I've seen a lot worse play (some from myself ) so don't feel bad).

[Budja]

Good enough for me.

unvote, lurker vote MR

@Tracker, why post such a thing without a vote?

[Budja]

Whats a better start then, eh?

[Budja]

@Emp, so can I interpret from your post that you vote is no longer random?
MR is just a decent lurker vote. Cat is also a decent lurker vote. I'm not pushing for a lynch.

@Tracker, how good must a read be before it warrants a vote then?

Maybe a further vote so L-1 would spark more movement, but i certainly wont do that considering the early nature of the game and no posts from him

unvote, vote angel

, scum tell #1. Wishy-washy, want (suggest anyway) pressure without responsibility. Better than a lurker vote.

[Budja]

Sorry, I forgot to post my V/LA in this game. Anyway, I'm back now.
--

Emp's point in 42 is exactly what I meant on angelmouse.

@Emp RE: Tracker, his post is also wishy-washy but didn't ring alarm bells (putting someone on L-1 is more extreme), still its noted.

Who is more suspicious to you: MR or Cat?

Useless poster v. Non-poster. Not sure TBH, I'm hoping one of them will post something meaningful to tip the scales here.

@MR, IIRC you have played OK before, surely you can scumhunt.

(MS lag sucks. )

[Budja]

OK, the whole thing about Tracker is silly. Cat/angel had posted (albeit only with random votes.), MR had not.

[...]but I'm almost positive that's how he plays regardless of role

Was V/LA. (and I do try not to lurk)

@Jack, why not a lurker? You don't seem to have answered that one.
---
Angel/MR/Cat are all good targets. You have good taste in scummy people Emp .
Still I'm preferring my Angel vote.

[Budja]

@Emp,
MR is been newbie and giving poor play.
Cat is non-existant.
Angel has dropped a scum-tell (you know the one) and hasn't been full of content either.

Scummy lynch > Lurker/Useless lynch.
---
Hopefully Cat will post/be replaced soon. I don't think pressure or lynching is much good there until I see something.

[Budja]

@Emp 79, I think we disagree over what is scummy (or the degree of scummyness) here.
Angel's non-existant coupled with her wishy-washyness doesn't look right to me, more scummy than lurker or newbish play.

@Cat, your vote?
Is tracker town or scum?

@MR, I'd rather you post. You don't have to be providing gold to help.
"any play is better than lurking."
^ follow your own advice .

@Angel, well its wishy-washy

and

lack of content now.

@Tracker, what do you think of angel?

[Budja]

I'm defining Wishy-washy in this case as contradicting, vague posting (which could have scum motivation).

Not a fan of angel. She's looking like she's active lurking right now, and that won't do. She needs to participate more, and she has certainly been rather wishy-washy.

Good.

The only people she's looking at are the easy targets and Budja, although in Budja's case it's more OMGUS than anything.

Bad.

---
PREVIEW:
@angel, you said L-1 was possibly a good idea, but you wouldn't do it. Even you ought to see the horribleness of that.
---

On a meta check, Cat is posting little is all games right now. The little she posted he is ok, albeit weak.
I don't want to lynch Cat.
MR, I am torn on. He may have played before, but on a meta check appears to be a legit newbie. Although, he may be playing it up a bit in this game.
---

In short:
Cat is null.
MR is leaning scummy.
Angel is scummy.

[Budja]

@Tracker, Nope.

I'm am getting an opportunistic feel from Tracker. His attacks seem very fluid to fit the "current lynch". (gut, but I would be interested to know if anyone else is getting the same vibe.)

*L-1 alert* BTW. (I think. MS lag )

[Budja]

Its because I am obv-town Jack . (More seriously, why do you bring this up? Is it bad/good/whatever?)

@Jack, MR is #2 lynch option for me. I still think angel is better.

@Emp, its really mostly gut, I haven't been getting any "bad feeling" from Jack FYI.

[Budja]

No. if MR is lying, cop should

not

counter-claim.
---
Here is why:
We get to choose our lynch, not the NK.
If MR is town, he is likely to die. No point wasting a lynch on him.
If he is scum, the real cop can counter-claim tomorrow (with a result).

So, no claiming, no lynching MR.
---
So, who's up for lynching Angel?

[Budja]

@Tracker, it doesn't matter if he is scum or town, lynching him is sub-optimal play. Basically, it isn't worth the risk, and if he is scum, he dies anyway.
---
Sorry, Emp but angel lynch >>> Cat lynch.
Cat is a lurker across the board. Cat is null, useless but not scummy.
Angel is useless and scummy.

More Angel votes please!

[Budja]

(I'm not a stickler for punctuation but that comma irritates me. Sorry )

PS. Vote Angel.

[Budja]

Claim time #2.

[Budja]

L-2 actually.

We could go for a counter-claim. TBH I still think Angel is scum and worth lynching today. Vote not moving.

[Budja]

No cop counter-claim today.
Doc may counter-claim if they wish.

I am voting Angel regardless.

[Budja]

^^^
Glad to see we are on the same page there, Emp.

@Jack, Emp
it probably is optimal play to get a doc counter-claim.
I am not the doc.
(We need Cat around for this too.)

@mod, could you prod Cat.

[Budja]

No, no, no.
If MR is scum, he dies tomorrow and we have a decent chance of getting an investigation.
If he is town, we direct the scum kill or get an investigation.
Win,win.

Stop discussing MR, he is not today's lynch regardless of anything short of a scum-claim.
---
-town points.
---
I don't believe Angel but I'm willing to hear a counter-claim as Mafia are probably going to be cop-hunting tonight.

[Budja]

Well, just waiting for Cat now... ... ...

[Budja]

I do like your posting evil, and I agree with pretty much all you said (save your Jackabomb attack).
Still, that cop-claim withdrawal is scummy. MR is a newbie but I'd think he has more sense than that.
---
Still obv. waiting on cat but if angel is a no-go, an evil lynch wouldn't bother me.

[Budja]

@evil, that would have been the ideal town move. Too late now.

If Cat fails to counter-claim, expect a vote.
I'd rather lynch a suss vanilla than go hunting elsewhere.
---

@mod, could you seriously consider replacing Cat. The game is effectively on standby until we can get a claim.

[Budja]

@HackerHuck, in response to a doc claim we are having a "mass counter-claim".
If you are the doctor claim so ASAP.

[Budja]

@Huck, Angel is proven to be the doctor due to no counter-claims.

unvote, vote evil

as..
1. he is not the cop (vanilla if town).
2. the whole cop claim/takeback thing sucks.

[Budja]

Oi, I'm not lurking (IMO anyway).

@Huck, my scumlist is easy but honest. I haven't got anything on the others.
Also, Angel's active lurking was a factor but I was hard on her, partly because I was less sold on the other cases.
---
I am torn on evil actual scummyness but I still think he is the best lynch. We remove the WIFOM behind the cop claim and we let the cop live to investigate (or at least have a better chance).

Emp is over-reacting at nothing.

[Budja]

@evil, MR's vote was just after/during the RVS. The case on Angel was far better than anything else around.
...and I'm not a lurker. sheesh.
---

[Budja]

@Emp, No, claiming to have possibly misinterpreted our posts if he had not read the thread is null and insignificant IMO. It would be clumsiness on his part if he did *not* ours and he didn't do so anyway.
--
@evil, thats active lurking FYI and I am not active lurking.
--

You say the exact opposite thing about the exact same action! How on earth is it good when I call angelmouse wishy-washy, but bad when Budja does?

Now thats a good catch. I also want an explanation.

[Budja]

Ok, I wasn't expecting that. ^^

unvote

for the same reason as way back.
---
I'll look back later.

[Budja]

His re-claim did surprise me considering evil's fairly defeatist attitude (earlier).
Thats what feels the most off to me.

Basically we have to weigh the "risk of outing the real cop" (evil-scum) against the risk of killing our own cop (evil-town).
I'm iffy. (which means more thinking I guess.)


----
@Emp, FYI, I have a bit of a "gut" suss on Tracker, mild town on Jack, iffy on you and Hacker. I don't set much stock in that ATM.

You seem very certain that HH's posts means nothing.

Your attack on his off-hand (IMO) comment just looks a bit silly to me.
--
@Huck,
Emp's 42 details the "wishy-washy" comment the best. My view aligned pretty much exactly with that. So, yeah.

[Budja]

That was what I was trying to imply.
---

My turn to be a little wishy-washy on evil .
The whole situation makes me uneasy but I can see the town-reason for making such a gambit.

Emp's case fails to convince me. (Point 1 is just plain wrong (see evils post). The others could come from a pissed off townie.)

I don't want an evil lynch. It's

is

the same situation and is not worth it.

---
Just don't ask me who to lynch now . That requires a little more thought.

[Budja]

Sheesh Emp. I have had suspects and guess what, they both claimed power roles. That's whats put me in a bit of a rut.

You’re not the cop. If you were, you would have safely hammered the fakeclaiming evilsnail right now.

Your right, I was clumsy.

@Emp, point 1 is wrong. Evil explains it well. I feel no need to reiterate.

And you *bought* the who copclaim/takeback thing despite saying that it sucked.

It did and does suck. That said, I was, and still am, torn on if he is scum or not. He was a good lynch while "vanilla" but I am iffy enough not to want to lynch him as cop.
---

[Budja]

@Tracker, I wasn't crash hot on MR either yet I wanted him to live. Same reason. I don't think evil is scummy enough to outweigh the benefits of letting him live a night.

@Emp, I am sticking out my neck by going against the flow.
--
I disagree over the doc thing. Getting results is too risky for mafia to let the cop live.
---

@Huck,

We've been discussing how off evil's claim recission and reclaiming is and now he's asking nessarae whether she's really the doc. We didn't get a counter from anyone after all of the requests for such, so I don't see why you would have any doubt. This seems more like an attempt to support evil's actions, which strikes me as very suspicious.

I don't understand this.

How

does it support evil's actions.

---

[Budja]

Please use some punctuation. I have great trouble understanding you.

[Budja]

The flip surprised me. I was beginning to think evil wasn't scum.
I'm sorry for the "I'm-not-cop" screw-up. I don't think I gave off cop-vibes anyway but still.
---
Jack is town. His attacks and participation on the MR wagon look legit.
---
Rereading Tracker's attacks on evil/MR make him obv/likely cop (hindsight/scum perspective).
---
Emp's attacks on MR are null/little town. He was less enthusiastic about a MR as so much as a lurker lynch.
---
Huck's bad Tracker vote looks worse.
---

vote: HackerHuck

Emp is #2.

[Budja]

@Jack, Emps look ok, yours look better. You were more focused on MR (without a "bussing" feel) while emp was attacking both lurkers. So you glean more townie points.

@ness, I didn't vote because 1. I didn't want to lynch evil and 2. I didn't have an alternative. I would have voted evil (only to solidify a lynch) at deadline but the day ended before I came online.

@Emp, I am not making a case on myself. I know I am town .

@Huck, your reasons made no sense.

[Budja]

@ness, read the thread!
Evil claimed cop and I didn't think the back-and-forth claiming were enough to condemn him (I could see town doing it). I expected a good chance of a cop lynch and I didn't want to take the risk.

[Budja]

I'm not mad .

[Budja]

@Emp,

“I thought evilsnail was town.” I was wrong about Evil. That is a fact. It doesn't make me scum.

“I didn't have an alternative.” I was in a rut. I didn't know where to look. It happens to me sometimes, regardless of alignment.

“I know I am town.” ... and this is why I am not building a case on myself. I'm clearly not using such a statement to defend myself.
---
Basically Emp, I was wrong about evil but its definitely not the super-scummy tell you paint it to be.
(I mean evil was dying sooner or later. Defending him like that was anti-scum .)
---

Would anyone like to comment on my case on Huck, even if just to say its rubbish (with reasons).
---

[Budja]

@ness, I am assuming you are saying that because I said "I am town", I am scum.

Lets look at the context:

@Emp, I am not making a case on myself. I know I am town.

AKA. I know I am town, so I'm not going to be attacking myself.

Also "gut" is why I'm in this position in the first place.
---

[Budja]

Either Emp is scum trying to get me lynched or one of you two are exposing his over-the-top attacks to get him lynched tomorrow. Ah the WIFOM.

3) Budja thinks you’re more suspicious than me.

True, but this whole attack is strongly ad hom. Answer his question.

@Emp, you are twisting my arguments/past thought.
Let me make this clear:
First leaving MR alive was good logic.
Leaving Evil alive was harder to decide as the backtrack increase his scummyness. I had a good enough feeling on him to give him the chance. The logic was now weaker but the gut supported it.
(Ok, maybe not so clear but this is how I thought (I think).)

(..and yes I've skipped a bunch of questions, but I don't want/have time to reread ATM.)

[Budja]

Ha. I was right.

Sorry for the screw-up town. I got a bit burnt out.
I feel a bit better knowing my other reads were good.

@Death, your modding was fine IMO.

[Budja]

Its still ethically a bit dodgy. Best to play your own game.

[Budja]

Yeah, I don't fault you for attacking me Emp. I realised that I looked pretty scummy.