Open 194- Vengeful Reasons- GAME OVER!

[Jackabomb]

Tracker, what is up with you? It might be just me, but it seems to me like you're bouncing all over the place.

[Budja]

@evil, that would have been the ideal town move. Too late now.

If Cat fails to counter-claim, expect a vote.
I'd rather lynch a suss vanilla than go hunting elsewhere.
---

@mod, could you seriously consider replacing Cat. The game is effectively on standby until we can get a claim.

[The Tracker]

Tracker, what is up with you? It might be just me, but it seems to me like you're bouncing all over the place.

How so, good sir? I think I made my views on MR (or ES as of now) crystal clear. Or are you saying that temporarily discarding an angle that was refused and starting to look at a new one is suspect?

[DeathNote]

I have been searching for a replacement. As soon as one is found, deadline will be established. Vote count will be posted latter today.

[DeathNote]

HackerHuck replaces Cat. Thank you HackerHuck!!! Deadline is set for one week from today.

[HackerHuck]

Unvote

I'll read through the thread and have my comments within the next 24 hours - hopefully sooner given the number of pages to read.

[Budja]

@HackerHuck, in response to a doc claim we are having a "mass counter-claim".
If you are the doctor claim so ASAP.

[EmpTyger]

HH:
Likewise, if you *aren't* the doctor claim so ASAP.
However, do *not* say either way whether you are the cop or not.

[HackerHuck]

Good thing I read through before seeing those last two posts. I missed the counter-claim piece, so I probably would have claimed it all had I not seen what was going on.

I'm not the doc.

I'm going to have to reread this thing. My initial thoughts aren't lining up with the recent claims and it's late, so I want to go back through the thread again. I'm totally stumped by evil's counter of his own claim, so I'm not sure how that could make sense. However, I do want to go back over everything to see if Angel's claim stacks up.

[Budja]

@Huck, Angel is proven to be the doctor due to no counter-claims.

unvote, vote evil

as..
1. he is not the cop (vanilla if town).
2. the whole cop claim/takeback thing sucks.

[EmpTyger]

HH:
What does this mean?

Good thing I read through before seeing those last two posts. I missed the counter-claim piece, so I probably would have claimed it all had I not seen what was going on.
<snip>

Also, I wouldn't mind hearing your initial thoughts with a disclaimer that they would be revised with the recent claims.

---

Budja:
I'm still thinking through your second reason against evilsnail. But I'm definitely not willing to lynch just for vanilla.

---

Everyone except Budja/Jack:
What do you think of a Budja/Jack mafia?

[DeathNote]

Vote Count:

Jackabomb

- evilsnail (L-3)

evilsnail

- The Tracker, Budja (L-2)

Not Voting:

EmpTyger, HackerHuck, anglemouse

With 7 alive, its 4 to lynch

[The Tracker]

A Jack/Budja scumteam? Hmm...Honestly I don't find either of them scummy ATM, but that's probably because of all the scumminess surrounding other players by comparison. Why, you have an idea for a case, Emp?

[HackerHuck]

HH:
What does this mean?

Good thing I read through before seeing those last two posts. I missed the counter-claim piece, so I probably would have claimed it all had I not seen what was going on.
<snip>

Also, I wouldn't mind hearing your initial thoughts with a disclaimer that they would be revised with the recent claims.

I should have highlighted the word counter. I first thought you wanted me to claim everything, which was not what was discussed in thread. After re-reading, I caught that you just meant we're counter-claiming.

I didn't catch this until I updated my notes, but I tried to just add comments related to the claims without really changing my ealier notes. I went back through and reread folks in iso. It really didn't change my overall opinions on people, but it did allow me to flesh out my comments better. At first glance, I had placed people into two categories due to all of the lurking. I then took a look at postcounts to see how my impressions matched up to the volumes.

Actives:
Jackabomb 49 posts
Tracker 48 posts
EmpTyger 25 posts

Inactives:
Angelmouse 21 posts
Cat 3 posts
Memorable Raindrops 9 posts, evilsnail 12 posts
Budja 25 posts

Now in fairness, I noticed that some people felt that Cat was scummy - and not just for lurking. Given his three posts, I'd like to know what he could have done that was scummy (besides lurking).



Jackabomb-I'm not sure why he declared random voting over and done with on page two. I also don't get why he's going after Tracker for not pulling his random vote. He early insistence on pressing for lurker lynches makes no sense. With a game this small, a mislynch today means LYLO tomorrow. Jackabomb 48 is odd. I can't tell who he's trying to defend and I'm not sure why he's being so coy. I'm also curious what the scumtells are considering that MR has one post at that time. He does back off of his lurker push with a really odd post in 50 - EmpTyger comments on this in the very next post. It also seems off how he used peoples' random votes to flesh out an overall suspicion list. I had thought he might be joking about the random voting, but now he appears serious about it. I like his explanations in 69. They make up for the confusion I had earlier. I'm not sure what he's getting at in 86. The buddying comment about Budja seems to come out of the blue. I really don't get it - even after he explained it. Weird to ask the cop for a result. Night-starts are pretty unusal here and I didn't recall seeing that in the rules. Got a little defencive when called out for trying to lynch both PRs. I didn't see both unvotes immediately after the claims, but it's a stretch to say he was trying to push two lynches.

Tracker-Emptyger catches some scummy behaviour by tracker in 38. Tracker and EmpTyger then spend the next few pages arguing about it. I seem to think it's more important than EmpTyger, because he's not voting for Tracker even though he keeps pressing on it. Tracker still doesn't get where the questions are going by post 38. Unvote in post 45 is strange. Now he's got me really confused in post 52. After all of the discussion with EmpTyger about MR being scummier, he now thinks Cat is scummier in comparison. Worse, he's falling into the lynch a lurker trap. Bad idea in a game this size. You need to nip lurking in the bud by voting early and letting a wagon build up pressure. The MR discussion starts to make a little more sense now. It does seem like an honest misunderstanding, so it's not as much of a scum tell to me anymore. Nice pickup on Angelmouse in 94, but it wasn't an original thought. It seems like he's passing it off as one. He picks up a little speed around the time of MR's claim and acts appropriately for the situation. Post 135 was scummy, especially with the backtrack after Jackabomb calls him out for it. Knowing now that the claim was wrong, I'm not sure if that makes him any less scummy. Tracker goes in strong for the kill on MR, which does redeem him a bit more in my eyes.

EmpTyger-I like how he picked up on Tracker's treatment of MR vs cat & angelmouse. I don't think it's nothing like some of the others do. He actually does a good job of catching Angelmouse's wishy-washiness. I didn't catch that even on my reread of her in iso. His steady pressure of Tracker looks like good scumhunting to me. I am surprised by his post 51. Even in iso, he doesn't really make much mention of why he's so interested in Cat, or really MR, except for a small bit where he agrees with Jack/Budja. Like the other active players, he's seemingly going for the easier lynch. It must be pretty hard to understand the level of lurking when just reading through a game. I like his scumhunting, but I'm not sure why he's not talking much about who he's voting for. More recent posts tail off into the arguments/discussions with others regarding lurking. He does seem to act appropriately in response to each of the claims.

Angelmouse-I give her props for the first part of post 85. Lynching lurkers on principle is dangerous in a game this small and she defends her "wishy-washiness" pretty well. Unfortunately, she ends it poorly by pulling her random vote for no reason and trying to sling a little mud of EmpTyger for his contribution to discussion. I really don't like how she's never taken a stand on anyone until Jackabomb pressured her into the claim and now she's voting him. It seems a little OMGUSSY.

Memorable Raindrops-Late random vote doesn't really bother me. I'm more bothered by Jackabomb's response in 44. I don't like the excuse for lurking or the refusal to claim. The refusal does make some sense with the claimed role, but the last post after the claim isn't good. It seems like a lot of effort went into the claim and MR just gave up. I could see the real cop giving up after doing that, so it's a null tell.
evisnail-Backtracking on the cop claim made MR's last few posts seem even scummier. Seems to put a lot of faith into reads from pages 1 and 2. I'm not sure why they're worth mentioning unless they tie back to a more recent read. The rest of his analysis is ok, but I don't agree with the Jackabomb and Tracker pairing. He obviously is trying to recover from MR's play, but I think it's an unwinnable situation now.

Budja-I had him pegged in my inactive group, but his post count was surprisingly high. His first few posts were mostly random stuff, but then asserts the first case on the "confirmed doc" Angelmouse. I really don't like the accusation of wishy-washiness. This game is definitely not a standard setup, so risking L-1 here was likely to get a lynch from someone who didn't count well. His comment on Tracker is the opposite to me. Tracker's wishy-washiness is scummier IMO. Post 67 has his scumlist only include the three lurkers. That's a bit too easy. It's not like everyone else who's posting looks clean here. Puts a lot of faith in the wishy-washy scumtell. Interesting how he mentions Tracker a lot, but hasn't put together a case on him. I get the feeling that he's feeling out whether he should try and push a Tracker wagon at some point. I don't see those two as a pair. Still has his sights set on the three lurkers, although Angelmouse is a little more active now. I normally find that to be the easy way out, but given the numbers there's got to be a scum in that group. I would say that he's been pushing awfully hard for the Angel lynch considering his only tell is her comments way back in post 25. I like his reaction to evil, but noticed that he's remaining friendly, which is odd considering he's ok with an evilsnail lynch.

At this point, I'd be pretty happy with a lynch on evilsnail. I didn't really feel much of a case on him earlier, but the claim was off and evils reversal didn't help things. I'd be ok gambling on the vanilla townie versus scum. I'm going to hold of my vote for a couple of days though, because we got an extension and I don't want to lop off discussion after I just joined in.

[Jackabomb]

/facepalm

I can't believe it. I asked for a cop result on day start???
I've been playing too much EpicMafia.

[Jackabomb]

Oh. HH, I can't figure out exactly what you think of everyone(particularly me). Could you rate people on a town-ness scale of 1 through ten?

[HackerHuck]

Oh. HH, I can't figure out exactly what you think of everyone(particularly me). Could you rate people on a town-ness scale of 1 through ten?

Nope,but my top two would probably be evilsnail and Tracker. I'm not sold on them as a pair though, so I'll reevaluate once we find out evil's alignment.

[evilsnail]

@Huck, Angel is proven to be the doctor due to no counter-claims.

unvote, vote evil

as..
1. he is not the cop (vanilla if town).
2. the whole cop claim/takeback thing sucks.

*sigh*

So, I guess this whole thing is backfiring pretty bad. There are other conceivable reasons for 2, you know. Think about it.

[DeathNote]

Anglemouse has been prodded.

[EmpTyger]

evilsnail:

<snip>
There are other conceivable reasons for 2, you know. Think about it.

No, you tell us.

---

HH:
I was suspicious of Cat for not doing anything to help the town and then giving an excuse for antitown behavior that didn't seem to hold up to scrutiny.

<snip>
I first thought you wanted me to claim everything, which was not what was discussed in thread. After re-reading, I caught that you just meant we're counter-claiming.
<snip>

Here are the posts in question:

@HackerHuck, in response to a doc claim we are having a "mass counter-claim".
If you are the doctor claim so ASAP.

HH:
Likewise, if you *aren't* the doctor claim so ASAP.
However, do *not* say either way whether you are the cop or not.

I'm having a hard time believing that someone could read those 2 posts as "claim everything". Especially someone who allegedly hadn't yet read the thread. Budja's only mentions a doctor claim/counterclaim. And he says you should claim "If you are the doctor". And I explicitly say *not* to claim cop. Am I missing something that doesn't make this just an attempt to manufacture mud at Budja and me?

You also made a big deal about needing to reevaluate based on claims, and going to check to see if angelmouse's claim stacks up. And yet your post doesn't do that at all. How come?

---

Tracker:
I had half an idea. There's something about that pairing gnawing at me. The biggest problem I'm having with Budja/Jack is that Jack/MM seems likelier. (And then the problem with Jack/MM is likewise MM/evilsnail.) I think I need to reread them.

[The Tracker]

Well, let's put it this way: Jackabomb bussing MR/ES is the best possible play he can make if he's scum. Let's say he suddenly unvotes when ES takes back the claim. He suddenly looks scummy, right? Then if one of the two get lynched, that confirms a scum pair. It's perfectly reasonable to assume MR/ES is scumbuddies with anyone that's going after him. In any case, I'm really convinced ES is scum and think he should be lynched.

[HackerHuck]

HH:
I was suspicious of Cat for not doing anything to help the town and then giving an excuse for antitown behavior that didn't seem to hold up to scrutiny.

So you didn't like his excuses for not posting/lurking, or is there another anti-town behaviour you're referencing?

<snip>
I first thought you wanted me to claim everything, which was not what was discussed in thread. After re-reading, I caught that you just meant we're counter-claiming.
<snip>

Here are the posts in question:

@HackerHuck, in response to a doc claim we are having a "mass counter-claim".
If you are the doctor claim so ASAP.

HH:
Likewise, if you *aren't* the doctor claim so ASAP.
However, do *not* say either way whether you are the cop or not.

I'm having a hard time believing that someone could read those 2 posts as "claim everything". Especially someone who allegedly hadn't yet read the thread. Budja's only mentions a doctor claim/counterclaim. And he says you should claim "If you are the doctor". And I explicitly say *not* to claim cop. Am I missing something that doesn't make this just an attempt to manufacture mud at Budja and me?

You seem a little defencive. I don't know how that would be considered slinging mud at either of you. I'm the one who misread it. Your posts came at the very end of my readthrough and I had to read them both more than once to understand what you guys were talking about.

You also made a big deal about needing to reevaluate based on claims, and going to check to see if angelmouse's claim stacks up. And yet your post doesn't do that at all. How come?

I'm not sure why you consider it a big deal. When I went to do my reread, I saw that Angelmouse was cleared as the doc, so it was a moot point to evaluate her claim. I just took that into consideration when updating my notes.

[Budja]

Oi, I'm not lurking (IMO anyway).

@Huck, my scumlist is easy but honest. I haven't got anything on the others.
Also, Angel's active lurking was a factor but I was hard on her, partly because I was less sold on the other cases.
---
I am torn on evil actual scummyness but I still think he is the best lynch. We remove the WIFOM behind the cop claim and we let the cop live to investigate (or at least have a better chance).

Emp is over-reacting at nothing.

[evilsnail]

Unvote

So, for what it's worth, here are my thoughts on everyone, after doing a big re-read. I'm going to die soon either way, so there's no point in keeping anything to myself.

The Tracker

- Re-reading, I see again why my initial impression had The Tracker pegged as scum. For one thing, The Tracker went after MR and then wanted to lynch him despite the claim. Definitely look at this when I turn up town.

But there's a general pattern that worries me.
The Tracker sowed the seeds for an MR wagon quite early on. So there's his ISO 4:

Ewkay, since this game has officially ground to a halt, so to get discussion going what do you guys think of Memorial not posting yet? I personally don't appreciate the lurking, but apparantly it's all the rage in this thread anyways.

He pushed MR for lurking, but then later claimed not to have a case on MR, but that he was just trying to create discussion. Then later he does vote MR on the basis of his lack of contribution. There's a real lack of consistency here. Indeed, the fact that almost of every one of his serious votes has been motivated by lurking hints at a definite lack of serious scumhunting. He voted MR, Cat and anglemouse for lurking. I would be willing to forgive his eagerness to go after lynchers if there were otherwise serious scumhunting here, but there isn't. Not only is this bad strategy, because lurkers are just as likely to be town, but it's scummy, because lurkers are easy targets.

Jackabomb

- Starting to change my mind on Jackabomb. There's definitely some scumminess here. Jackabomb reprimands The Tracker very early on for his lynch-all-lurkers attitude, but then basically goes along with The Tracker on his MR vote. Like The Tracker, he has spent most of the game pursuing Cat or MR. Potentially, there's a bit of the same scumminess here, going after easy targets without contributing much else.

The fact that he asked MR for a cop result suggests to me he's not scum, though. Scum would know whether there had been a night. So, my overall feeling is leaning towards town.

More coming up.

[evilsnail]

Argh, sorry about the double post.

Budja

- When I initially read the thread, I had a very good feeling about budja. He seems level-headed and not too hasty. However, there is major scumminess here and very little actual content. He voted MR just for lurking early on and then switched to angel on one "wishy-washy" post. This was basically the full extent of his case on angel. That's really not enough to justify asking for her to be lynched and to claim. He's reminding me a lot of how I play as scum, not taking any chances and sticking to a vote once it's established & not contributing very much, but enough to prevent most accusations of lurking. Definite possible scum.

EmpTyger

- EmpTyger is hard to read. There are some things that make me think he's town, but also some things that worry me. On the one hand, his "I don't see myself voting anyone but MR or Cat today" comment was really scummy, but, on the other hand, he has contributed a lot of content. He has drawn out some discussions for a bit too long, which could be scum trying to confuse, but can sometimes be a townie getting a read on someone. I could see him as town, but also as sneaky scum.

HackerHuck

- Cat lurking is a null tell, IMO. I get a mildly scummy vibe from her three posts, but nothing much. HackerHuck I like so far. His analysis is pretty extensive and logical. Prob town.

Angelmouse

- Angelmouse I consider pretty much confirmed town, seeing as there have been no counterclaims. She needs to contribute more, though.

So, I think our scum is The Tracker and budja and definitely who we should be looking at, after my re-read.

Vote: The Tracker