Open 194- Vengeful Reasons- GAME OVER!

[nessarae56]

@ Budja

U could of told us that when i first asked u. But u waited a day or two to tell us. And Why did u not want to vote out Evil? I would like to know your reason on that one. I think we all would.

And first of all Budja is not the only one that i am looking at. Everyone has made mistakes. Even myself as well. We all made case about other people. But that is all i will say for now. And i still want an answer from u Budja. And the other can add to this too if they would like.

[HackerHuck]

HH:

While I don't like how Budja was non-committal at the end of the day, I'm not sure that scum would have taken that position when there was no feasible target other than evilsnail when we got close to deadline.

Interesting. If you think that evilsnail's partner wouldn't do that, then what do you think that evilsnail's partner *would* do in that situation?

Emp-tyger - if you really thought that evilsnail should die, why weren't you on his lynch?

Would you be asking this question if I had gotten online and cast the 4th vote on evilsnail- instead of you?

You couldn't figure out the answer to these? If elvis was going down anyway, why wouldn't he have jumped on the wagon? If you were voting for evilsnail, why would I ask you that question?

I understand that you don't agree with my initial reasoning, but that doesn't make me scum. I also pulled my vote when I realised that he was voting for Elvis, which made my observation invalid.

[DeathNote]

Vote Count:

HackerHuck

- Budja (L-2

Budja

- EmpTyger (L-2)

Not Voting: HackerHuck, nessarae56, Jackabomb

With 5 alive, its 3 to lynch...

No prods needed

[Budja]

@ness, read the thread!
Evil claimed cop and I didn't think the back-and-forth claiming were enough to condemn him (I could see town doing it). I expected a good chance of a cop lynch and I didn't want to take the risk.

[nessarae56]

Okay don't get mad about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I still think there is somthing about u that i don't like.

[Budja]

I'm not mad .

[EmpTyger]

Budja:
Oh, I disagree- I think you’re making a great case on yourself. Your defenses are either laughable or nonexistent:

“I thought evilsnail was town.”

Being the only player to want to go along with a mafia’s lie is not a sign of innocence. It’s a sign of guilt.

“I didn't have an alternative.”

Town try to find mafia. You didn’t.

“I know I am town.”

Just like evilsnail said he was the obviously protown, right?

---

Everyone not voting Budja:
Please provide an argument for why someone other than Budja should be lynched today, taking into account that:
1) evilsnail was mafia.
2) Budja *didn’t* want to lynch evilsnail.
3) Everyone else *did* want to lynch evilsnail.

---

HH:

While I don't like how Budja was non-committal at the end of the day, I'm not sure that scum would have taken that position when there was no feasible target other than evilsnail when we got close to deadline.

Interesting. If you think that evilsnail's partner wouldn't do that, then what do you think that evilsnail's partner *would* do in that situation?

<snip>
You couldn't figure out the answer to these? If elvis was going down anyway, why wouldn't he have jumped on the wagon?
<snip>

Oh, I figured that out. I was asking whether *you* had. Because I don’t see how you could truly think that “if evilsnail was going down anyway, his partner would have jumped on the wagon” when

that’s exactly what *you* did.

<snip>
Emp-tyger - if you really thought that evilsnail should die, why weren't you on his lynch?

<snip>
Would you be asking this question if I had gotten online and cast the 4th vote on evilsnail- instead of you?

If you were voting for evilsnail, why would I ask you that question?

Er, that’s my point- you wouldn’t. Because then you’d have to ask yourself why *you* weren’t on his lynch. So I don’t see why you’re attaching importance to it in this situation.
(I think I’m making my point clearer in the first part, so feel free to focus on that.)

[Budja]

@Emp,

“I thought evilsnail was town.” I was wrong about Evil. That is a fact. It doesn't make me scum.

“I didn't have an alternative.” I was in a rut. I didn't know where to look. It happens to me sometimes, regardless of alignment.

“I know I am town.” ... and this is why I am not building a case on myself. I'm clearly not using such a statement to defend myself.
---
Basically Emp, I was wrong about evil but its definitely not the super-scummy tell you paint it to be.
(I mean evil was dying sooner or later. Defending him like that was anti-scum .)
---

Would anyone like to comment on my case on Huck, even if just to say its rubbish (with reasons).
---

[nessarae56]

i think the fact that you have that claim makes you scum.. and you can't be trusted you say your the good guy but you know something about you strike's me as all wrong about you budja. i'm not quite sure what that is as of yet

vote buda

[Budja]

@ness, I am assuming you are saying that because I said "I am town", I am scum.

Lets look at the context:

@Emp, I am not making a case on myself. I know I am town.

AKA. I know I am town, so I'm not going to be attacking myself.

Also "gut" is why I'm in this position in the first place.
---

[nessarae56]

i am saying that you strike me as someone that needs to be watched budja. your on edge at all times now. and it does not help your case at and yes i think your scum.

[Jackabomb]

Sorry everyone, my computer was taken away from me for a while. It's back for now, though.

First of all, evilsnail provided a very good argument for his innocence. For a time, I even questioned my own vote. The only thing that made me leave it was his continuous use of an alleged WIFOM defense. Not voting evil does not make budja scum.

I was in a rut.

That is far too easy of an excuse for me to take seriously.

Budja, your response(299) to my last post(298) is completely unsatisfactory. It directly contradicts the second quote I gave. Why are his accusations null, while mine are so very protown? They were almost the same.

[nessarae56]

vote budja

seem budja seems to be drawing a lot of un wanted attenion to himself. right as of the moment i wonder all of you think he is up to ? i'm open to all ides's

[Jackabomb]

Sorry buddy. Your vote will only count once, even if you post it twice.

[nessarae56]

oh i know i just forgot i typed it sorry

[EmpTyger]

Everyone except Budja:

"Repeated things I've done to hinder the town don’t definitely make me mafia, therefore I'm town."

And the repeated things MR/evilsnail did to hinder town made evilsnail town too, I bet.

Also, he's lying about being in this position because of "gut". Because when I gave *logical* reasons, Budja said my *reasoning* was wrong. (Not that he could say why when I pressed him, of course, since he was lying.) He was arguing that the *logical* thing to do was leave a claimed cop alive.

No, the real reason he's in this position because he thought the town wouldn't lynch evilsnail yesterday. And we did.

---

Budja:

<snip>
Would anyone like to comment on my case on Huck, even if just to say its rubbish (with reasons).

You want me to comment?

<snip>
Huck's bad Tracker vote looks worse.
<snip>

You call that a case?
You want everyone else to reply with reasons, when you haven't presented any reasons to start with?

---

Jack:
If you think Budja's innocent, then present an alternate theory or 2.

[Jackabomb]

I disproved one point only. It isn't my fault if that was your central pillar of reason for the case on him. I'm not saying it was either.

Emp, if budja flips town, who would be next in line?

[nessarae56]

R u sideing with Budja Jackabomb ??????

[Jackabomb]

Everyone except Budja:
"Repeated things I've done to hinder the town don’t definitely make me mafia, therefore I'm town." And the repeated things MR/evilsnail did to hinder town made evilsnail town too, I bet.

Also, he's lying about being in this position because of "gut". Because when I gave *logical* reasons, Budja said my *reasoning* was wrong. (Not that he could say why when I pressed him, of course, since he was lying.) He was arguing that the *logical* thing to do was leave a claimed cop alive.

No, the real reason he's in this position because he thought the town wouldn't lynch evilsnail yesterday. And we did.

Could you be bothered to post some post numbers or some kind of references to where he actually said this stuff? If he truly has said that stuff, I'm more than ready to hammer him all the way back into the queue. Of course, if he flips town my prime suspect will be a certain guy by the name of emptyger.

[HackerHuck]

Everyone except Budja:
"Repeated things I've done to hinder the town don’t definitely make me mafia, therefore I'm town." And the repeated things MR/evilsnail did to hinder town made evilsnail town too, I bet.

Also, he's lying about being in this position because of "gut". Because when I gave *logical* reasons, Budja said my *reasoning* was wrong. (Not that he could say why when I pressed him, of course, since he was lying.) He was arguing that the *logical* thing to do was leave a claimed cop alive.

No, the real reason he's in this position because he thought the town wouldn't lynch evilsnail yesterday. And we did.

Could you be bothered to post some post numbers or some kind of references to where he actually said this stuff? If he truly has said that stuff, I'm more than ready to hammer him all the way back into the queue. Of course, if he flips town my prime suspect will be a certain guy by the name of emptyger.

I think he's referring to post 307.

EmpTyger - I'm not very comfortable with how gung-ho you are on lynching Budja. This is carrying over from yesterday where you were also not on the evilsnail lynch and were parked on Budja. Now you're talking about how evilsnail was obviously scum and Budja is his partner. What can you point to earlier that shows Budja as scum and why did you stick your vote on Budja when you thought that evil was so scummy?

[Jackabomb]

The only reason he wasn't on the ES lynch was because you beat him to it, hacker. I would like it if emp provided us with a list of reasons, you know: short, simple, consice, and to the point about why we should lynch budja today. As near as I can tell so far, his whole case rests on budja's lack of participation regarding the ES lynch.

[EmpTyger]

Jack:
…So if Budja did something that you think is lynchworthy, it will be my fault that you haven’t tried to lynch anyone else after I’ve asked you *twice* to propose an alternative?

Do you need me to ask you a third time? Because that’s at least 2 times too many.

If you don’t like my theory on Budja, *you* propose an alternative.

---

HH:

<snip>
EmpTyger - I'm not very comfortable with how gung-ho you are on lynching Budja. This is carrying over from yesterday where you were also not on the evilsnail lynch and were parked on Budja. Now you're talking about how evilsnail was obviously scum and Budja is his partner. What can you point to earlier that shows Budja as scum and why did you stick your vote on Budja when you thought that evil was so scummy?

That’s lovely. Now, how about a little reality check:
1) Jack voted evilsnail yesterday because my arguments against evilsnail were so “gung-ho”, as you put it.
2) nessarae (based on her voting) reached the same conclusions as me about evilsnail yesterday and about Budja today.
3) Budja thinks you’re more suspicious than me.
4) I’m not voting myself any time soon.

So I don’t really care if “you’re not very comfortable”. Especially when here’s what you are comfortable with:
Why *you* were so “gung-ho” about lynching Tracker yesterday. (Because for all you should know at this point, I could be right about Budja/evilsnail. But we definitely know you were wrong about Tracker/evilsnail.)

Why *you* only joined the evilsnail lynch when it was inevitable. (Which you yourself admit.)

Why *you* think that evilsnail’s partner would be doing exactly what *you* did.

[Jackabomb]

What's got your goat, emp? You're coming on

way

too hard. About everything. I just asked you to tell me why I should lynch budja. We don't have to lynch somebody right away. Just because I don't feel like lynching budja(when you've given no reason whatsoever to do so), doesn't mean it's, "You either come up with a better alternative

right this instant

or we're lynching budja!" This looks like False Dilemma.

If you want an alternative so dang badly, why don't you answer some of my questions so I can think about it.

1. Why should we lynch budja? Not piling on the ES lynch doesn't count.
2. If budja is not scum, who do you think is next?

[DeathNote]

Vote count:

Budja: Nessarae56, Emptyger (L-1)
HackerHuck: Budja (L-2)

No voting:

Jackabomb, HackerHuck

With five alive, it is three to lynch

[Budja]

Either Emp is scum trying to get me lynched or one of you two are exposing his over-the-top attacks to get him lynched tomorrow. Ah the WIFOM.

3) Budja thinks you’re more suspicious than me.

True, but this whole attack is strongly ad hom. Answer his question.

@Emp, you are twisting my arguments/past thought.
Let me make this clear:
First leaving MR alive was good logic.
Leaving Evil alive was harder to decide as the backtrack increase his scummyness. I had a good enough feeling on him to give him the chance. The logic was now weaker but the gut supported it.
(Ok, maybe not so clear but this is how I thought (I think).)

(..and yes I've skipped a bunch of questions, but I don't want/have time to reread ATM.)