Mafia 107 - Christmas Time Mafia (Game over)

[NavyCherub]

Vote: Fugitive

Because he's on the run!

[NavyCherub]

I sense a bandwagon forming on me here. Hmm...

Vote: Fugitive

You were quick to follow ready2rock's vote for me. That SCREAMS bandwagon. Also, it's not my fault that I don't know what RVS is, and to be honest, that's pretty poor reasoning for a vote.

OMGUS followed by a noob claim and no mention of the sudden CSL wagon? Smells scummy.

Richards vote of Fugitive is good.

In what way? Is it really that different from the votes for CSL?

Unvote Vote RichardGHP

[NavyCherub]

Unvote

It is true that Richard's meta is to overreact, but that doesn't mean I'm not still a bit suspicious of him at this point. The CSL bandwagon is much more scummy right now, and we still need to hear from the people who haven't posted before decisions can be made.

[NavyCherub]

What about the CSL bandwagon do you find scummy?

First of all, I find it scummy any time someone gets that many votes with zero reasoning. Add to that the fact that CSL hasn't even posted yet and gathered five votes on the very first page. I have the feeling someone knows more than they are letting on.

It doesn't help that the wagon came with comments like these...

Whats the problem with a good wagon in the rvs? NOTHING!

Yeah there is no problem with wagons on RVS

...which I understand are most likely early-game jokes, but are just a bit strange to me.

Konowa, do you not find the wagon scummy, even a little?

[NavyCherub]

However, mal's 47 does not sit well with me as it looks like he is trying to project the fourth vote [DoS' vote] as inherently scummier than his.

I disagree, looks to me like he was saying that if one were to say his vote was scummy than the vote before his should be equally as scummy, as they basically said the same thing. After all, DragonsofSummer got zero attention for his vote/"reasoning" and he hasn't said anything since (which isn't inherently scummy this early but worth mentioning). I find those posts equally suspicious, personally.

[NavyCherub]

I'm up for it, Konowa.

Vote: TheLonging

Despite saying that he has "a few thoughts," he isn't really taking a stance on anything. He writes this off by saying that there hasn't been anything to go off of from only four pages, but I highly disagree. There have been quite a few events and some decent discussion all around, so to not have any opinions after all that is strange. Everyone else has had something to say, so why doesn't he?

[NavyCherub]

1. Yes, that was in part an OMGUS vote towards him. In hindsight, I should have not cast the vote at all, but at the time I aimed for Kona.

2. I didn't notice the bandwagon on CSL at all until I read it over a few times, but I thought nothing of it tbh because of RVS.

3. My only idea(es) right now is to either:

A) Random lynch (very bad)
B) Argue for a while with each other until we find someone we're pretty sure is scummy and vote for them

1. I don't find your specific vote for Konowa as suspicious as the others do, personally, I understand why you used the vote to bring him out the same way he brought you out. I just don't think it was necessary, which is where the small amount of scumminess comes in.

2. You honestly didn't notice how CSL had five votes on page one, two or three of which specifically included the word "wagon?"

3. Obviously random lynches are bad, and we have been doing that second point for awhile now, which is why your lack of a stance is not looking good for you.

[NavyCherub]

Geez, lots of stuff to catch up on since yesterday. Here we go!

@Pie, I didn't want people to think that I had suspicions on Navy, beacuse, well, I don't at this point. I was just pointing out the fact that good contributions isn't always a town-tell. That said, I do intend to contribute more to this game than I did the SH one, whatever my role may be.

Question for you, Richard. What do you consider town-tells?

I haven't really been paying attention to the thread, apart from the TheLonging saga, so I don't really have any reads on anyone else yet.

That is definitely suspicious, if not scummy. Blatantly stating that you haven't been paying attention to the thread? Interesting.

FoS: Richard

2. I see what you're saying. To a lot of people, there is a large step between no suspicion and a FoS, and a small step between a FoS and a vote. However, to me, it is just the opposite. If they are leaning not-so-pro-town to me, I FoS them. It is mainly my list of possible suspects. However, a vote is a much bigger deal. It is a vote for a lynch, to kill someone, to eliminate them for the rest of the game. This is why I do not like the throwing around of votes.

I think it is heavily dependent on the situation. If the player in question has no or little votes, a vote or two is good to guarantee some discussion. However, once a decent amount of votes have been gathered, they start to gain more weight, so FoSs start to become more important. Late in the game votes are always important, but we're not there yet obviously.

A claim? Alright. My role is

Vanilla Townie

.

Really safe claim, not sure what to make of it this early to be honest.

pman just jumped on my scumdar for his request for a claim. A few people have posted since he has been at L-1, and none have asked for a claim. I think that it is bad to try to speak for everyone when no one else posting has asked for a claim.

Also, a claim doesn't always solve everything. Take that claim, for example. Claiming VT does almost nothing for me unless you have good evidence. Also, you seemed a little eager to claim for such a small role. For me, your eagerness to claim and your lack of evidence cancels out the desired effect of this claim. Thus, it does nothing in my eyes. I stand by my vote.

Half agree. Pman's request for a claim was scummy, but I can't think of a better time to ask for a claim than when someone is at L-1. TL is also suspicious for claiming after only one request, when no one else had even come close to asking.

Waffle harder please?!/sarcasm

Joking after other people have been called out for joking at this point?

FoS: DragonsofSummer

For the latter question; I wouldn't want to choose anyone to lynch because no one has been acting that scummy aside from me. Richard may be scum but I don't think his being overly careful is scumtell at all: it's probably his style of play. I wouldn't choose to lynch him.

Are you saying that you still have zero suspicions? Not even a little? Looks to me like you're trying to avoid committing to any sort of conclusion.

4)He has backtracked on several things he has said so far.

I have yet to understand why this is a scumtell, but w/e.

Not speaking for Konowa, but from where I stand scum are the most likely to make quick excuses and try to make up for them later. Hence why backtracking could be considered scummy.

Question to everyone with their vote on TheLonging:

Given recent events, including the claim, do you still find TheLonging scum? If so, why?

He only posts to defend himself and is not scumhunting at all. This is shown by his reluctance to say that he is suspicious of anyone but Richard. He is constantly making mistakes and taking them back, including being pro-random lynch for a time. He was quick to claim a safe role when asked only once.

Preview edit:

I know that the difference between mafiascum and ScoreHero has been brought up in the past, but I thought this might count for something.

TheLonging is still remaining in the SH mafia game and he's not acting that great in that game either. I'm thinking his scum-like actions might be a style of play, but I could be wrong.

Please stop bringing up ongoing games.

[NavyCherub]

Unless the NK(s) bring any sudden suspicion, won't we be in exactly the same position tomorrow if we Vote No Lynch?

I heavily agree, a No Lynch would tell us zero and we would be back at Day 1 minus one town.

[NavyCherub]

@Navy: I wasn't joking. That post contained a ludicrous amount of waffling, and The sarcasm was telling them to waffle harder. Also that is quite possibly the most ridiculous FoS I have ever seen. I only felt the need to point out it was sarcasm because this is the internet and that doesn't translate well. Also I am calling it right now that if Longing is scum so is CCA Raven for that waffletastic post.

I read it wrong and misunderstood, I apologize.

[NavyCherub]

@Navy: How do you feel about Richards' post towards you, or RIchard in general?

I don't think that Richard's post referring to me was about me exactly. I saw it as a post using my actions so far as an example for his opinion on town tells. As far as Richard himself goes, he is quite suspicious for both his defensive attitude and what appears to be a "connection" of some sort to TL. I don't find him extremely scummy but his actions today will likely be worth reviewing in the future.

[NavyCherub]

Something everyone missed. Richard mentions "not attaking Navy" in this post 5 pages before the mention that everyone is calling out.

Also mentions previous mafia game... again... and calls out the most obvious scum tell he can find

(the 7 way FoS)

. [124]

I thought that was the post everyone was talking about? Seemed like the most relevant one to me.

Tries to call out that Navy might be scum for asking about pro-town players, as if that would give him NK candidates. Don't like it. [252]

I actually asked what he thought of as pro-town characteristics in response to him not finding content to be necessarily pro-town. He pretty much avoided the question by saying he doesn't have enough experience and he can't trust anyone, which is basically all fluff in an attempt to avoid commitment to an opinion.

You seem to have it all right, Fugitive. I'm willing to

unvote

and vote

RichardGHP

at this point.

[NavyCherub]

I'm willing to

unvote

and vote

RichardGHP

at this point.

I'm not counting that as a vote, since the vote part isn't bolded.

How did I manage to do that?

His recent claim makes me reconsider voting for him, though. I don't know if Richard of all people could make something like that up. However, I agree with DragonsofSummer in that this post:

I thought the Jack could only be PT? I've never heard of a Pro-Mafia Jack.

seems to be just a quick attempt to cover his butt.

FoS RichardGHP

EtherealCookie is not producing any posts worth reading and he is clearly just trying to make other people mad at him. In other words, looks to me like he's essentially trolling. So until he lets us know of a real opinion or assessment of the situation at hand,

FoS EtherealCookie

. Do you honestly have nothing to say about what has gone on so far? I find that hard to believe. Your petty argument with Fugitive looks like fluff to me.

[NavyCherub]

Screw it all, nevermind about the part adressing you above, EtherealCookie.

[NavyCherub]

NavyCherub - Post #85, nothing mentioned about TheLonging, even after the conversation between Konowa and him. #98, asked who is suspicious, and you jump onto the wagon. Why didn't you point him out earlier?

Post 85 was specifically in response to Konowa's statement about malpascp's post (47) and was part of the discussion about the CSL wagon. What I viewed as TL's lack of commitment to an opinion (89) was my main reason for the "jump onto the wagon" (laid out in 98).

[NavyCherub]

Does that even matter anymore? This argument isn't getting us anywhere and it would be better if you people would just drop it already.

[NavyCherub]

Cherub, thoughts?

Richard seems like the type of person who doesn't like to come to conclusions. His comments about his possible suspicions of my intentions with the town-tells question reflect this; he is avoiding calling me out because he has no real info to back his feelings up with, so instead he decides to breadcrumb. Essentially he does not like when attention is brought to him and appears to feel that an actual list of people he finds supicious would bring the attention he dislikes so much to his doorstep. Unfortunately, as you can see, this has backfired, so now his posts are a strange combination of backtracking and breadcrumbing, both attempts to make himself seem less suspicious at different points of the game.

[NavyCherub]

He seems pro-town

outside

of those posts and their responses by others/Nvay himself.

So I look pro-town except for when I want you to elaborate more often?You can't be choosy like that, Richard.

Vote: RichardGHP

[NavyCherub]

NavyCherub. Breadcrumbing is an interesting observation of someone who is newbieing so much.

I don't mean to say that he exactly knows the implications of breadcrumbing, but that it comes naturally to him to do so when the majority of his posts are dedicated to his own survival.

Those posts are uninfluenced by the fact that you wanted me to elaborate, in the circumstance you're thinking of.

I can't think of another circumstance that could lead you to believe that I was looking for NK targets.

[NavyCherub]

Unvote

Regardless of how scummy Richard may or may not look right now, I agree with the notion that he should be given a day or so to give us the fruits of his supposed ability.

In the same vein, speculation about roles is dumb, especially day one. Come now.

I higly doubt that the mafia doesn't have a RB. Even then, there is still most likely a town RB that could end up RBing me. I think it's pretty safe to say there is at least one RB in this game.

This post is hilarious. Assuming the mafia has a roleblocker AND expecting that a town roleblocker would block you? Richard, did you think that through before you posted it? What use would a town roleblocker have blocking you?

3. I was waiting for Richard to claim, knowing he would do so in his claim-happy fashion.

That is super scummy. Anticipating/luring out claims is something scum would do to make better use of their night roles.

2. My no-lynch vote was just to test what people thought of a no-lynch. Looking back, I should've just suggested it instead of outright voting for it.

If this was the case then it should have been said when you unvoted the no-lynch.
Now it looks like trying to rewrite your past.

Fos Diddin

Can't tell you how much I wish I could have said this myself. Bad backtracking to the extreme.

sorasgoof is being veru scummy for many already laid out reasons.

Mal needs to stop lurking.

Vote Diddin

FoS sorasgoof, Mal

[NavyCherub]

No townies have even mentioned their power role, or have been asked about them.

Are you trying to say Richard is scum? Or does this count as a lie? Lynch all liars, right?

[NavyCherub]

Unvote, Vote sorasgoof

Forgot to do that before.

[NavyCherub]

Question: diddin, DragonsofSummer, InflatablePie, NavyCherub - why so bandwagonwhorish?

If you elaborate a bit more I think I can answer your question more clearly, but my response to just this is that I haven't had the opportunity to start a decent wagon myself yet. However, I do feel like I give my opinion where it matters, so my "bandwagoning" is brought with a bit more substance.

If it helps us find scum tomorrow, then yes. A VT isn't really worth a lot to the town aside from voting. Cops and doctors (and of course JoaTs ) are what the town really wants to keep. By lynching you, we are able to analyse those on your wagon and determine the scum, and we only lose one vote.

Though I see where you're coming from, this post feels like a mix of apathy and an attempt to make yourself look more valuable. Suspicious.

I honestly think Richard just scumslipped. Ooh boy, that's a real gem there. Playing in a game where someone said something similar and quickly got to L-1. But they hadn't already claimed, which is what saved them.

I don't understand how this of all things would make you think he slipped up. And apparently this "scumslip" still isn't enough to make you change your vote to him? Interesting.

By the way, your post suggests that you could be a mafia-aligned PR, because you demand I stop "speculating". For all I know you could be a scum PR trying not to slip.

Come on, man, stop being so freaking paranoid. It is day one and you seem to think that anyone who says anything to you is some sort of crazy mish-mash of mafia roles designed perfectly to kill you. It's not reflecting well.

[NavyCherub]

I don't think him asking to be replaced means anything except that he didn't want to play the game any longer. Further speculation seems silly to me.

[NavyCherub]

By saying inb4 X I acknowledge in advance that I know my actions are hypocritical/stupid in the eyes of others/whatever, and, as you say, invalidates any arguments made a against it

to a very small extent.

(Key part)

How does acknowledging one's own mafia-like actions make those actions any less significant? Hint: it doesn't, this is just an excuse to not improve your posts.

DizzyIzzyB13: Lurking. Only posts when asked something and doesn’t contribute much.

No, this is definitely wrong. Read his posts and try again please.

RichardGHP: I think that this calls for an ¯\(°_o)/¯

No opinion on him at all? That doesn't seem likely to me.

You don't aound like most of the other '24ths' (TL, Didd, Rich, etc)

Harsh.

[NavyCherub]

The other two, DragonsofSummer and NavyCherub answered differently. Their answers were concerned solely in terms of being on bandwagons, suggesting a mindset in which the identity of the lynchee is less important that the fact that he or she must be lynched. NavyCherub in particular made a curious comment about not having the opportunity to start a wagon himself, which is puzzlingly irrelevent to the question. Navy's was also the most cautious, phrased in a way designed to give Navy an out were the answer to be "wrong".

Isn't being on bandwagons what the question was asking about? Like I said, a question that was a bit more specific would definitely bring about a better answer.

In response to my statement about not being able to start a wagon myself, I think you are misinterpreting it. I meant that I was on the bandwagons simply because I have not started a wagon, and if you didn't start it you joined it. I think that is relevant to the question at hand.

Finally, I did mention that I brought my opinions to the table before joining wagons, I simply didn't feel the need to repeat the reasons as if you care enough you can read my posts again yourself.

[NavyCherub]

Unvote

Scum: All your scum tells are based off of essentially what you call "gut" feeling.

I feel like a gut feeling is pretty important this early in the game, so I wouldn't blame him for that too much.

IF YOU ARE TOWN...YOU WILL QUIT WITH THE FUCKING TOWN LISTS!

I agree, I also don't like it at all when people ask others for town lists, as they aren't very productive and can lead to alot of pot holes in the future that make it appear as if you were buddying or trying to get suspicion off of your scum buddy. Not really a good idea.

we let him use 1 of his 4 abilities and then lynch him without regarding his OTHER 3 abilities? I don't know, that doesn't really sit right. Of course if you lynch him, you can prove if he's a confirmed townie, but then what happens to the other 3 abilities he was given that you completely disregard?

I think the point is that his other three roles aren't really provable in any way. Though I do not agree with thinking today about if we should lynch him tomorrow, as situations change and the town should adapt to them, I see where Pie is coming from.

I can explain it ckd. Scum group= Soras, diddin, CCARaven, ?. I don't know who their 4th buddy is yet, but I am fairly certain that if any of those three is scum Richard is not, and vice versa. The pushing is just too hard for it to be bussing at this point.

When will the speculation end?

@Raven: Your entire post feels like a great example of trying too hard. You're not looking for scum as much as you chose someone to be scum and then started building a case around a possibility instead of facts. That just isn't productive, and seems forced to me. So, FoS: Raven.

[NavyCherub]

Great post Parama, but I'm going to wait and see if he wants to respond before I decide if I want to vote for him today or not.

Until then, I'd like to know, Flareonage, what do you mean that diddin "seems to be a new candidate for the lynch?" You're voting for him because it looks like other people might vote for him?

[NavyCherub]

It's very unlike Pie to stay inactive for this long, and I'm not quite sure what to think of that right now but I would definitely keep an eye on him. However, he hasn't shown scummy activity before this, so it isn't vote worthy. With that I will

vote diddin

as I agree with Nico and Fugitive, as well as to help move away from the apathy that seems to have spread over the town.

[NavyCherub]

Dizzy, why do you want me to claim all of a sudden?

On the topic of Richard's investigation, I think that I buy Richard's claim for now. Having two people with commuter abilities is definitely not a reason for it to be false.

[NavyCherub]

Why do you expect him to claim just because you ask him to? He doesn't have any reason to claim.

Exactly. This is ridiculous, I'm in no kind of claim situation right now, and I don't know why you feel the need to be so aggressive all of a sudden.

[NavyCherub]

have you seen a game where two people had commuter abilities?

No, but that doesn't mean I just rule things out.

If there is a even night, do you think there might be an ODD night as well?

Three commuters seems even more unlikely, but again, the number-specific attribute of Fugitive's power makes it a possibility.

yesterday after his claim you DIDNT believe him...what about his claim do you believe now?

Actually,

His recent claim makes me reconsider voting for him, though. I don't know if Richard of all people could make something like that up.

though I did vote for him at one point after this because his scum-like habits got to me.

On the contrary, you're in claim-or-die territory at best, claim-and-die at worst. The fact that you can't take the context of this claim demand and work out that the gig is up is mildly amusing, though.

Holy...fine. I'm a roleblocker, I used it on Flareonage last night, but that clearly got nowhere.

[NavyCherub]

Tracked Navy, Navy visted Flareonage.

That would be correct if Dizzy were telling the truth, but he seems to be attached to lynching me.

[NavyCherub]

so you think dizzy is lying?

but yet no vote for her?

Of course I think she's lying, I'm just not used to voting so early, and it's moving fast so I figured I should get that out there as soon as possible.

Vote DizzyIzzyB13

[NavyCherub]

OMGUS.

Lynching a liar who is building a quick wagon on me is not OMGUS.

[NavyCherub]

OMGUS.

Lynching a liar who is building a quick wagon on me is not OMGUS.

Please. I've heard that one before.

If you are so confident that Dizzy is lying, then prove it.

She didn't post as much as most of the town yesterday and decided to tunnel me after answering her question. I'm fairly sure she's been planning this.

[NavyCherub]

Or we could lynch Dizzy and skip the part where we have to lynch a townie, don't you think that would be a more productive thing to do?

[NavyCherub]

Parama, if Dizzy is a tracker then she would have reported me as targeting Flan, not Rich.

[NavyCherub]

Would you do this if you were in our position?

Vote for the person who I trusted less, assuming you mean if I were in Parama's position and not mine or Dizzy's.

[NavyCherub]

Why'd you use your "roleblock" on Flare, not like it matters?

Because he was a replacement who didn't essentially do anything, I figured he was newb scum and no one else claimed a power role other than Rich, who I obviously didn't want to interrupt.

[NavyCherub]

Why should we trust you?

What makes dizzy more likely to be scum than you?

I actually contributed yesterday, Dizzy didn't so much at all.

Still a pretty poor vote though.

You would rather have had me not vote for the person who is so vehemently trying to kill me?

[NavyCherub]

Navy: Wouldn't it make more sense to target someone who wasn't lurking?

I disagree, and clearly someone else did too. It would be different if he was lurking and trying to write it off, but he very clearly said he knew he was acting scummy and wanted to. I figured something was up.

on preview, I suppose I have been lynched if Dizzy is correct.