Mini 896 - Jekyll Mafia - Game Over

[raider8169]

Vote Green Crayons

What? Someone had to do it.

[raider8169]

vote: nachomamma8

Early bandwagon, whoo!!

He's at L-4, you guys must really hate him.

[raider8169]

unvote, vote Gerhard Krause

for stating that the implications of your actions are the responsibility of others.

Oh, good case, I want in.

Unvote, Vote Gerhard Krause

[raider8169]

Wow, lots of crap considering we are still random voting.

In other words: Hey look at me!

Unvote, Vote 5cvm

He's scum just hiding in plane sight,

FOS

everyone who doesn't see it!

[raider8169]

Wow, lots of crap considering we are still random voting.

In other words: Hey look at me!

Unvote, Vote 5cvm

He's scum just hiding in plane sight,

FOS

everyone who doesn't see it!

You know what? Yuck.

vote raider8169

Thank you, I was feeling left out.

[raider8169]

@raider: Why are you trying to extend the RVS when it's obviously already ended? What is your opinion on what's happened so far?

Why not? There is no official ending for the RVS so I thought it would be fun to change my vote a few times. Besides, if the RVS has officially ended wouldnt all the votes casted during the RVS be removed?

I thought what was going on was stupid but I wasnt about to say something as it was sparking conversation which is always good. I saw the third vote as a null tell as well as the unvote.

[raider8169]

I find the discussion about Gehrad's vote removal and justifications entirely uninteresting. I probably would have done the same thing had I been on the wagon, although I probably would have waited until L-2. I also agree that Gehrad's not responsible for the bandwagon stopping as anyone else could jump on it at anytime; but I do think Gehrad's action, or rather the questioning of his action, that made it not a day one (page one) shenanigans wagon any longer.

In addition to Ectomancer's reasons, I am voting you because you seem afraid to remain with a bandwagon very long.

I think it is a little premature to decide about someone's general dedication to bandwagons, don't you think? Is the set of one bandwagon (especially one during "RVS") a good representation of all bandwagons? I think not. I think this "additional" justification for the vote is ridiculous.

Nachomamma8 - pursuing the course you are, it appears to me that you are most concerned with the behavior and not necessarily whom the vote was cast on (you). Is this true?

@raider: Why are you trying to extend the RVS when it's obviously already ended? What is your opinion on what's happened so far?

This is a good question, especially considering the response.

Why not? There is no official ending for the RVS so I thought it would be fun to change my vote a few times. Besides, if the RVS has officially ended wouldnt all the votes casted during the RVS be removed?

I thought what was going on was stupid but I wasnt about to say something as it was sparking conversation which is always good. I saw the third vote as a null tell as well as the unvote.

You thought the conversation was stupid, yet it was good because it was conversation; but you did not want to participate? You felt the best move was to just ignore the good, stupid conversation and let everyone else participate while you switched your "vote a few times"?

Vote: raider8169

xvart.

I think you may have misunderstood me. In general, conversation is good. However the conversation that was being had I thought was stupid so I did the wise thing and stayed out of it. Over time it may have evolved into something note worthy however as the basis of it was nothing I did not see that happening.

When you say "let everyone else participate" who was that exactly cause I dont think that was happening. I just happen to be the one that voiced something about it.

[raider8169]

I'm here. Just thoroughly disinterested in this conversation. Less quote walls please. I think xvart is the only one with a valid point as of yet. Would like to hear Raider's response.

My response? I thought I already responded. If I missed something please point it out.

[raider8169]

1. I just started playing again after being gone for like 7 months. I would not say I have a lot of experience but I am not new to this.
2. Either or, my main goal is normally to just try and stay alive throughout the whole game. I think I have managed that twice.
3. Silver (Go Raiders!)
4. I think Green Crayons is the only one but I dont really remember as I have been away for a while. It may just be that I remembered his name.

[raider8169]

I was going to unvote but seeing as 5cum or whatever his name is hasnt even shown up yet I think it will stay.

[raider8169]

I don't really see what all the fuss is regarding random votes, nor do I really see it as a phase that "ends".

What do you mean by the second part of that?

Most likely that is doesnt just happen. Some people keep their random votes on people for a long time as they just dont see a reason to take them off. In that sense the phase wouldnt end until the last person removes their votes or announces that it is a real vote.

[raider8169]

Nacho asking irrelevant questions and Raider perpetuating. Good vote targets.

Seemed obvious to me, besides its the same stuff that is asked in most of the games I am in anyways. I figured I would save some time and just answer it.

Is that really a bad thing?

[raider8169]

unvote, vote Nachomamma8

If he is lying then we caught scum with him. Either way its a step in the right direction.

[raider8169]

What do you mean, raider? Are you saying that either Nacho or 5cvum has to be mafia?

That is what I am thinking. If 5cum got something saying Nacho is scum as town he would say something as scum he would be lying. So if Nacho is scum then 5cum would be confirmed town, right? If Nacho is town then only scum would risk something like that, right? As long as I am not missing something it seems pretty straight forward.

[raider8169]

Unvote

I am currently away for the weekend though I am still skiming posts when I have some time. When I get some time I will post something better.

[raider8169]

·

I would actually like raider to explain his post 78 instead of people just calling him out for a false dichotomy. Yes, it is a false dichotomy. In the meanwhile, we've seen his logic and I would like his response as to if he still thinks this logic is sound. I think the assumptions made in 78 aren't inherently scum-originated, even if I do think that they are flawed.

I do not see how it is flawed unless 5cvm is just being an ass to everyone in this game.

If

he does have that information and if he was a townie it would be the right thing to do and push for a lynched based on what he knows. If he is lying then scum would be the only type to do that so either way we found scum and I do not see how that is a bad thing.

It is possible I do not see how it is flawed outside of knowing 5cvm playstyle. Can someone explain that one to me?

[raider8169]

Nacho, is there anything that you can think of that would cause 5cvm to call you out as scum per his role?

[raider8169]

Nacho, is there anything that you can think of that would cause 5cvm to call you out as scum per his role?

Rolefishing?

Sorry, that was not my intent. I was refering to why he would call you out just to be an ass. I thought something was said about him doing this before this game or something but I couldnt find it, though I cant say I had a lot of time to look for it.

I like the idea of lynching him but I am not sure if I want him lynched because of how he plays in general or because I think he is scum.

[raider8169]

raider: Are you referring to Nacho or 5cvm with the last line of 135?

5cvm, sorry should have made that more clear.

[raider8169]

A) Raider embraced a "false dilemma". That is not a huge fail. It is fact.

I have yet to understand why and no one has bothered to try to explain it. It may be a mute point but I would still like to know.

[raider8169]

You missed the "He's not being serious/he's lying factor" in your post.

Ah, that would do it, though to lie like that would normally mean he is scum. In this case I am seeing just him being an ass. So my wanting him to be lynched seems to be more of his play style then him being scum, at least at the moment.

[raider8169]

Ah, that would do it, though to lie like that would normally mean he is scum. In this case I am seeing just him being an ass. So my wanting him to be lynched seems to be more of his play style then him being scum, at least at the moment.

Which is not a lynch I want to occur on Day 1. It's exactly the kind of lynch scum want to occur; a lynch they can push for without a real case against a person; which is the simple reason why I feel we shouldn't be lynching him right now. If he begins to cause harm to the town or gives us considerable reason to believe he's scum, then we lynch him; however, I don't think that he's done either of these things.

I have been known to think this for large games but for smaller games like this is he someone we can afford to have in the game for endgame? Today might not be the best day to lynch him but there is always information to learn from his lynch if there is not someone clearly scummy to lynch.

Overall I do not think we are at the point where there is no one else to look at and we should just give up and lynch him. After the holidays I should have time to go into more details.

[raider8169]

Got my mass prod, will post more soon either today or tomorrow. Holidays and all...

[raider8169]

Im sorry I havnet been posting. I will be more active in the next couple of days. Things have been hectic here.

[raider8169]

Ok, I have had a hard time reading most of this thread. People are posting walls of text and going off on there own little tangents. Either way I am supporting of a 5cvm lynch. I think he is at L-1 and the deadline is in a week or so. I would like to see a post from him in the meantime listing who he thinks is scum and whatnot but I think he gave up on this game instead of trying to fight his way out.

[raider8169]

Feels like you want to lynch him more for personal reasons. Also, he's laid back, but so have I.

That is why I didnt vote for him at the time. By personal reasons I meant his playstyle not that I just dont like the guy (I have never played with him before this game). I found myself doing that with a few other people voting them just cause they didnt make sense or something like that so I was trying to prevent that. I didnt notice he was going to be V/LA so I'm glad I didnt vote him. Between work and people coming to visit all the time I have not had much time to read in depth so I think I have missed a few things.

[raider8169]

Mod: How's the search for a Unity replacement going?

This is an odd post.

First, he just requested to be replaced yesterday.
Second, you either have a replacement or you don't. I seriously doubt the mod would say that he has one, but forgot to tell us.
And finally, why are you so concerned about a replacement now?

Because a MrSuave wagon was forming and I wanted to get a replacement to comment before a premature hammer...

Why was that post such a big deal?

To me posts like this seem to be a distraction. This one wasnt as bad as others I have seen but it was odd as HH said. Tiss all. Even if there was a replacement. It is unlikely they would have enough time to read the game and post before we would be forced to lynch someone due to the deadline.

[raider8169]

An extension would be good.

[raider8169]

Welcome peanutman!

[raider8169]

@mod

, I unvoted on 296. Please update vote count 299 (putting me instead of Unity of course).

Also, I meant to vote on my last post but was in a hurry and forgot.

Vote : Raider

, your play up to this point compared to the experience you have doesn't make sense. (according to your wiki, you have played in at least 10 games, though the page seems quite outdated so I assume much more).

No its up to date. I didnt even know I had a wiki page until a little while ago. Sadly the guy who updated it I helped kill in another game. I was away from the site for 7 months due to work reasons and I am just starting back up. My play in this game was just me trying to have some fun but some people didnt like it. I forgot how touchy some people are about ending the random voting stage. I dont take that part seriously at all and it crossed over into the argument that happened during that phase as well. Cant really defend myself anymore then that.

[raider8169]

Vote: Raider

I don't have a problem with the Suave/5cvm wagons.

I do agree with Peanut's assessment of Raider's play not matching his supposed experience. I had mentioned it before, but didn't find it vote worthy. Since then, I don't feel Raider has contributed much at all. Perhaps slinking into the background...

Lynching me because of my supposed experience? As it is really nothing I can defend other then what I already said your vote is very opportunistic.

@HH I was ok with 5cvm's lynch but I was hoping to her from the replacement. Suave would be the backup lynch in my opinion depending on 5cvm's replacement. If it was not for the replacement part my vote would be on 5cvm.

[raider8169]

Deadline is four days away. We still have plenty of time to get in some good discussion. One thing I would like to know is why raider and Phantom are not voting. If they do not agree with the Suave lynch please explain why you do not agree with it at this point and also why you are not voting at all.

I thought I already said this but my vote would be for 5cvm before he needed to be replaced. Mr. Suave is at L-1 it would be stupid to lynch him without giving him a chance to respond and claim. Voting anyone else at this point would be pointless but the attention has been around them and me so I do not have a clear person to vote outside of that group.

[raider8169]

claim? well I would like to just clear things up. I am a VT, and I know that's probably the worst thing to claim but that's that. I don't see the point of claiming, because usually people are stuck in their ways, and a claim will probably not change anything =/. But that's what I am.

You dont have anything to add to this? Any thoughts or ideas?

[raider8169]

Unvote, Vote: Mr. Suave

Time to move on...

The mod isnt going to be back for a while so now we are just going to be in twilight. I would have rather the hammer waited a tad longer so those that have not chimed in would do so before the day closed.

[raider8169]

355: No. I thought they were complaining that they wanted me to wait on the hammer so that we could have more contribution. If they weren't going to contribute then I don't see why they would complain. And I was explaining that complaining=/= contribution. In other words: If you have something to say, say it. Don't complain that you didn't get the chance when you still, quite obviously, have the chance. Are you going to stop the lynch? Of course not. Was there any conceivable scenario where this lynch would have been stopped given Suaves lackluater contribution and vanilla claim? I think not. So speak if you have something to say, otherwise don't whine that you didn't get a chance when you had more than enough time to contribute.

My intent was not so much complaining about the hammer but more we are waiting for people to post and contribute. I made it out to be a bigger deal then it really is, there is nothing wrong with the hammer as the extra time was not the result of anything we did more the mod was just going to be away.

[raider8169]

I am fine was also fine with the hammer prior to Green Crayons posting; and now that he has, it is even less issue.

I am also happy with pressing Raider a little harder tomorrow, but we'll see after the NK.

xvart.

Why wait? If you have something to say please say it now. If you would like me to answer something there is no better time then the present.

[raider8169]

Why wait? If you have something to say please say it now. If you would like me to answer something there is no better time then the present.

Seems to me there are already things you could respond to. Starting with Green Crayon's 361 where he built a case on you based on earlier accusations as well as new stuff. I would like to see your answer to that. Especially with the mod gone until Sunday, we should have some time to discuss some of that right now.

There wasnt any questions just his opinions. But I will respond.

1. About the RVS. This is a non-serious part of the game to break the ice. I was having fun with it and it did humor me. Still does in that people just dont let it go and it though I forgot that day one lynches are based off of the littlest things so I am amazed I wasnt lynched of that alone. I guess that is what happens when I leave for 6 months and attempt to jump without reading a game or two to remind me how sensitive people are to certain things.

2. Faith is all I need to place my vote where I want or judge someone how I want to. Its part of the game and how I choose to play it. If this is lynchable then looks like I will be getting lynched in every game I play early on. My false dichotomy? Seriously? 5cvm made a claim and if he was wrong we could have lynched him the following day. It was win win but if 5cvm was being an ass then how the hell am I suppose to know that. Once it was pointed out I let it go. Sure it may have taken a bit but thats the way it goes sometimes. Dont like it? Tuff Also it could be that I posted stuff other people were thinking and thought it would be scummy to post regardless of if they were town or not.

3. 5cvm claimed that Nacho was scum, I wanted something to back that up so I was asking. I didnt think it was role fishing and still dont as my intent was just to find out how he got the information he did so we can figure out how trustworthy it is. Its not different for some player saying so and so is scum. Someone else asking why and the first person then claims cop or something. Nothing more I can say about this.

4. The persona I am using doesnt fit the player? Its almost like you know my meta from 6 months ago. Though if you did it properly you would also know that I have different playstyles depending on the type of game and the mood I am in when the game starts. I have fun with metas and it people that rely on metas to find scum get screwed and end up screwing the rest of the townies. This is by no means my first game and I do know what I am doing. I find this to be fun and how I want to play the game. If it gets my lynched then so be it. I tend to suck in endgame anyways.

[raider8169]

@Raider:
When you posted your ISO 15, had you read all of the game?

When I posted it I was still only skimming posts, just for the record I am no longer skimming posts. That was only because I did not have time for anything else.

[raider8169]

So, are you consciously playing a confused and easily misguided townie? If not, could you tell us what you are doing?

Misguided no. I got annoyed at the argument that was going on and was sick of reading about it. While the conversation was happening there was no information coming out of it. It just seemed like a couple of people whining about nothing to me. I just decided to say it to change the conversation to something better. Which it did even if it is at my expense, but I am ok with that. Though scum would never intentionally draw attention to themselves like I did but this is WIFOM so it really doesnt mean anything.

[raider8169]

Vote : Raider.

Would like to see him play more with reason and good analysis than by his mood. Actually contribute positively to the town, instead of trying to "change the conversation" because he didn't feel whatever was discussed was important.

Green Crayons vote was acceptable but yours raises many questions.

What do you mean by play more with reason? Playing by my mood should not have an affect on this game more just how I started the game out. I thought it was appropriate as that was how I choose to play and that is not up for question. Contribute positively to town is questionable as well. How have what I said not good for town? I was open and honest just what I town should be. Changing the conversation is not a bad thing. The main goal on day one is to have conversation I think I succeeded in that quite well. If I didnt feel something was important most people would just ignore it while I thought best to say something.

Lastly you didnt at any point say that I was scummy or anything in that matter. You just pointed out things about my play style you didnt like. Can you at least copy Green Crayon's case to make it seem like you put a little effort into this

[raider8169]

@Raider, I already raised things I felt were scummy about you yesterday. My comments next to my vote spring largely from your last comments before the end of the day. In terms of contributing positively to the town, I feel you have just been attempting to defend yourself without bringing anything new. I'm oversimplifying the issue by saying this, but your defense has really been largely discrediting the accusations against as being irrelevant or "that's just how I play". So, my vote is on your for a poor defense IMO as well as little contribution to the town compared to the amount of activity you have had.

Your last post that had somewhat pro-active contribution was about 8 posts ago (iso 32) and you have been pretty much exclusively on the defensive ever since. It's fine that you do that, but do some scum-hunting as well. You talk of generating discussion, but it's only been about you for the past little while. How about you detail your views on others, place a vote, or just do something else.

If you must know, at the moment no one really sticks out to me. I like where the pressure on me is going as it gives me insight into some people going for the "easy kill." Right now its too early for to tell but in due course it will happen.

[raider8169]

I like where the pressure on me is going as it gives me insight into some people going for the "easy kill." Right now its too early for to tell but in due course it will happen.

Please explain this.

Easy kill would be the people that join a bandwagon and say nothing other then agree and vote. Scum looking just to have someone killed and looking for the easiest target to add their votes too.

[raider8169]

The whole point of this post was to cast a vote, but I'm still torn in between a Raider or Xvart lynch. If I don' hear from xvart soon, or more likely now his replacement, I feel comfortable with

vote: Raider

Do I get a reason as to why you are voting me?

[raider8169]

The whole point of this post was to cast a vote, but I'm still torn in between a Raider or Xvart lynch. If I don' hear from xvart soon, or more likely now his replacement, I feel comfortable with

vote: Raider

Do I get a reason as to why you are voting me?

On that same note, I asked you a question in the post. You probably didn't read it, though, because you had ask why I was voting for you.

I had already answered that question before you asked it. There are many things in these games that people dont post because it might cause someone to think they are scum because they are speaking their mind. Its part of the game. If someone thinks they are above that or dont do that they are just liars and I will leave it at that.


I will save people time and effort and claim now. I am Col Hart and a vig. I am responsible for HH's death.

My thoughts are that the scum are either lurkers who didnt submit a kill or we have a doc who saved whoever they intended to kill.

As far as who I think is scum is going to have to wait. The site keeps crapping out on me.

[raider8169]

I picked HH more on a hunch. I had the feeling he was testing the water with a few people to see would could come off as an easy kill. I was wrong.

Now that my info is out its unlikely that I will survive the night but I would rather town have more time to discuss this. This was sort of why I was playing the way I did to see if I could draw scum to me but it seems my gambit or whatever people wish to call it did not work as I had hoped.

Oh another thing, if scum picked HH too I guess that would explain why only one night kill if there are others who think he was very townie.

[raider8169]

Yeah, this isn't very hard. Raider claims vig and claims the only kill from the previous night. That kill was of HH, a guy who seemed pretty townie on my intro read, and raider never once mentioned suspicion of him. Looks like a scum nightkill to me.

Unvote. Vote: raider

lol, that would be the worse scum claim ever. I should try that sometime and see what happens.

[raider8169]

Ok this makes no sense to me.

You claim night vig, so you played the way you did to draw scum to you? What good doe that do? You can't kill them unless it is night so you say yet I think you are saying you draw votes to you to pick out the scum, but HH never even voted you!

And one other time before the last quote where he asked why you, kiku, and Phantom were not voting anyone. So instead of vigging someone who voted for you yesterday (Ectomancer, xvart, Nachomamma8, Kiku, and Peanutman) you killed someone who was asking if there was a better case against you and never voted for you?

Sorry, site was messing up. Post must not have gone through or something.

I wanted to see how people would react to how I played. I figured it would have more of an effect after day 2. Still has a chance so I will see assuming I am not today's lynch. If I am then town is going to be in a bad position come tomorrow. I never said they needed to vote me to draw scum to me. Town will vote me all the same. Its just me trying to figure out who is what. I was wrong with HH, I admite that. Isnt the first, wont be the last.

Just because someone voted for me doesnt make them instant scum. If I am today's lynch there is going to be town votes on top of the scum votes.

[raider8169]

I will save people time and effort and claim now. I am Col Hart and a vig. I am responsible for HH's death.

Ya know looking at this, he never says he is town.

Now unless there is no such thing as a mafia vig, then I would guess he is really more of an SK, in which case it wouldn't be a mislynch at all, but a third party memeber being killed.

Also out of the 11 remaining players at night alive, then chances of Raider and scum picking the same player to kill is like a doctor picking the right person to protect ont he first night, very little chance of that happening. Even IF mafia didn't submit a kill why would they do that on night 1 with no idea if there was a vig/sk whatever or not?

Something just doesn't add up here.

vote raider

I knew I was dead shortly after the day started. Saying I am town is obvious as anyone scum or town would say it. If I survived I think I would have killed you next. So I am thinking wolf and kik are scum.

[raider8169]

Raider: If you are left alive would you consider letting town direct your kill? Would you consider self vigging? If you are town, then lynching you is a mislynch. Both of these options would offer more use of your role. Would you consider them? Why or why not?

I would have no problem with this. Self vigging would go against my win condition so I would have a problem with that.

[raider8169]

Raider: If you are left alive would you consider letting town direct your kill? Would you consider self vigging? If you are town, then lynching you is a mislynch. Both of these options would offer more use of your role. Would you consider them? Why or why not?

I would have no problem with this. Self vigging would go against my win condition so I would have a problem with that.

So you would have no problem doing something a person that you think is scum suggests, and you have some sort of special win condition?

Seriously folks third party member here if he isn't lying mafia, this is in no way a mislynch.

Did you bother to read what she wrote. Oh noes I have no problem using my vig towards someone who the majority wants me to use it against. Seriously when I flip town, kill him. Or yell let me live and I will do it myself.

Vote Wolf

May be a moot vote but at least its there.

[raider8169]

Did you bother to read what I wrote?

You just said you have no problem with a suggestion that someone you think is scum brings up. Even if the town agrees on it there is no guarantee that you will even kill the person the town tell you to. Or let's say you do, for a day, maybe two days, building credibility, then when it looks like everything is all good, BAM, you kill off the remaining town because of your "win conidtion" which I more and more believe your role is some kind of vig survivor or SK role, since apparently vigging yourself is agaisnt your win condition.

So what kind of win condition is given to a person whose role is "town" that would make him loose if he vigged himself? Not town, because if it was all town would have to do is win and he would win, even if he was dead. So that leaves survivor or SK, roles that let him win as long as he is alive and all remaining town and mafia roles are eliminated.

This is a no brainer.

The reason I am a town aligned vig is due to the flavor of my char on the show. I wouldnt lose if I vigged myself but I would not see that as helping out the town in the long run. It would just be an idea that scum would use to kill off another townie.

When I flip town killing you should be a no brainer.

[raider8169]

Lesson learned, if everyone posts while someone is at L-1 at lylo then you found scum.