Mini 896 - Jekyll Mafia - Game Over


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Post Post #225 (ISO) » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:57 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

Gerhard, you're confusing the hell outta me.

Gerhard wrote: This isn't really pointless actually. You're digging yourself into a hole here. First you vote me based on false assertions. Then you retract that vote based on false excuses. Then you dismiss the argument as pointless, when, though not hugely important, it is at least relevant.
False assertions... okay, I messed up and thought you voted 5cvm. We've covered this. False excuses is where you lose me. What false excuses?? And I really don't see how this discussion is doing anything but distracting the town because of a misunderstanding. Thus, pointless.
Now what you have just shown is a scum slip if I ever saw one. You posted a vote, but only later did you come up with reasons to explain it. You're basing your excuse off of when you explained your vote, not when you placed it.
>.>
No. I posted a vote, I explained it.
The "excuse" was in response to "your inclination not to check facts is noted". As in, I didn't double check my facts when i further explained my vote. I didn't. It was 1 am.
You could pass off the time issue as forgetting who you were voting for, or why you were voting them, but when you placed the vote, you knew what your reasons were. If the time was the issue, you wouldn't have retracted your vote, you would have explained the real reasons behind it, as you were clearly lucid when you made it.
You completely lost me.
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Post Post #226 (ISO) » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:49 pm

Post by kikuchiyo »

Nacho: I actually think its kind of odd that Gerhard
hasn't
voted 5cvm, or really seemed to pressure him. The cases against both 5cvm and Mr. Suave were similar imo, and Gerhard hopped on Suave while the 5cvm wagon was building. Then, when the 5cvm wagon peaked and a claim requested, Gerhard turned and attacked me for slowing the wagon down. Yet he has never voiced any strong support of the wagon in the first place. It doesn't make Gerhard necessarily scummy as I think the most likely scenario would be Gerhardscum protecting his mafia buddy 5cvm. That case is dependent on 5cvm actually flipping mafia, however, so I think it is best left for another day. At this time, Gerhard is prompting discussion and moving his vote enough to be protown. His avoidance of the 5cvm wagon will be a liability to him in the future(as will my claim defense) if 5cvm flips mafia.

To my detractors: You can say I haven't been scumhunting all you want, but you would be ignoring not only the quantity of my content, but its quality. I have been making observations and publishing them, responding to questions, and asking some of my own. I have also pointed out the fact that Phantom and Unity are riding the popular wagon with little contribution, and I have iso analysis' on the way. Interpret it as you like, but I feel my contributions have been solid.

Can we get some sort of mass prod and/or replacements as necessary?
"Yes, Kiku fucked me thoroughly and left me on the side of the road to be lynched." - Snow White
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Post Post #227 (ISO) » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:56 pm

Post by kikuchiyo »

Ebwop: "It doesn't make Gerhard necessarily scummy "

Change "necessarily" to "independently". It should read closer to what I mean.
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Post Post #228 (ISO) » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:11 pm

Post by MrSuave »

Happy new years everyone!
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Post Post #229 (ISO) » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:26 pm

Post by Gerhard Krause »

@Nacho - I'm sorry I lost you. The whole case boils down to the fact that you did not have reasons for your vote until after you placed it. The only way that is possible, since you didn't have any other reasons, is that you fabricated those reasons after you placed the vote itself.

Town have no reason to do this, since they are actually trying to find scum, ergo you are scum.

Does that make sense?

@Kiku - I never advocated the 5cvm wagon, and I still don't. I think the wagon is stupid.

I did not vote you for slowing the wagon. If that were the reason, I'd be voting 5cvm, don't you think?

I voted you for avoiding establishing a position, as that is inherently scummy. Not because I think 5cvm is scum and I think you might be protecting him. Please get it straight before you attack me for the wrong reasons.

As you are inevitably going to question me about why I think the wagon is stupid, I don't see it as doing anything more than lynching a lurker. He just isn't paying attention to the game, hence the vague scum tells that have arisen.

I said I could be convinced, and that would take some legitimate scummy behavior to add to his anti-town behavior. Then I would vote for him.

Mr.Suave had a legitimate scum tell, as has already been pointed out, hence my vote on him.

Kiku then presented scum behavior, then Nacho presented a concrete scum tell. That is the pattern of my voting.
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Post Post #230 (ISO) » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:41 pm

Post by Budja »

Votecount5 - 5cvm: (HackerHuck, xvart, PHANTOM, Unity, wolframnhart)
2 - Nachomamma8: (MrSuave, Gerhard Krause)
Not Voting: Green Crayons, 5cvm, raider8169, kikuchiyo, Nachomamma8


With
12
alive it will take
7
to lynch.

Deadline:
9th January

No mass-prod. I just sent one out.
5cvm did say he would be V/LA until the 5th. If he fails to show up, he will be replaced.
Last edited by Budja on Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #231 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:59 am

Post by wolframnhart »

Budja, i had voted 5cvm on my first post, just to let you know for an accurate vote count.

Sorry, I completely missed it. I fixed your name up too.
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Post Post #232 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:58 am

Post by Green Crayons »

I've been batting this around for the past couple of days, and I'm going to go ahead and
vote: 5cvm
. The last time I successfully and vocally opposed a "policy" lynch against abundantly stupid play concluded with me helping to prevent an otherwise popular scumlynch which was one of the final nails in the coffin for the town.

Here's to hoping that I learned my lesson about kneejerk reactions to stupid play.

If 5cvm was willing to be a bit more explanatory about his actions, rather than his piecemeal responses to the myriad of questions pertaining as to the whys and hows of his actions, I think I would be more prone to believe he's just dumbtown. This, however, has not been the case. His evasive post-"gambit"-reveal attitude is much more scum than town.
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
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Post Post #233 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:59 am

Post by raider8169 »

Ok, I have had a hard time reading most of this thread. People are posting walls of text and going off on there own little tangents. Either way I am supporting of a 5cvm lynch. I think he is at L-1 and the deadline is in a week or so. I would like to see a post from him in the meantime listing who he thinks is scum and whatnot but I think he gave up on this game instead of trying to fight his way out.
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Post Post #234 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:34 am

Post by kikuchiyo »

Guys, did you read the mod's note? 5cvm is V/LA until the 5th of January.

Nobody hammer until we get a response/claim at the very least.
GK wrote:@Nacho - I'm sorry I lost you. The whole case boils down to the fact that you did not have reasons for your vote until after you placed it.
The only way that is possible
, since you didn't have any other reasons, is that you fabricated those reasons after you placed the vote itself.

Town have no reason to do this
, since they are actually trying to find scum, ergo you are scum.
*grumbles* I have bold texted your huge logic failures. Another plausible explanation for Nacho's actions include the possibility that he simply could not articulate his suspicions at the time of the vote and wanted to put some pressure on someone he suspected in order to guage reactions from both his suspect and other players. You are speaking in absolutes here, but you failed to apply the same theory when it came to 5cvm's gambit. You are not applying your reasoning in a universal fashion. The more cases you make like this, the less you are going to be able to convince anyone of your beliefs. There are town motivations to vote without posting reasons. Can it backfire and appear scummy or anti-town? Yes, but that doesn't negate the value of things like "pressure votes" and "gambits".
GK wrote:@Kiku - I never advocated the 5cvm wagon, and I still don't. I think the wagon is stupid.
Yes. You are repeating what I said.
GK wrote:I did not vote you for slowing the wagon. If that were the reason, I'd be voting 5cvm, don't you think?
Yes. That is what I was referring to earlier. Since you seem to not suspect 5cvm, it makes your suspicion of me all the more odd imo.
GK wrote:I voted you for avoiding establishing a position, as that is inherently scummy. Not because I think 5cvm is scum and I think you might be protecting him. Please get it straight before you attack me for the wrong reasons.
I haven't attacked you for anything. I laid out my opinions of your failed logic.
GK wrote:As you are inevitably going to question me about why I think the wagon is stupid, I don't see it as doing anything more than lynching a lurker. He just isn't paying attention to the game, hence the vague scum tells that have arisen.
What are these "vague scum tells", and how do you compare them to Nacho's "concrete scum tell"?
GK wrote:I said I could be convinced, and that would take some legitimate scummy behavior to add to his anti-town behavior. Then I would vote for him.
This is another logic failure. How is this position any different than mine? And don't argue semantics. What you are doing here is setting yourself up to hop the most popular wagon. Its okay, but don't be a hypocrite. I would like you to explain what is "not scummy" about 5cvm. Then explain why Nacho, kiku, and Mr. Suave are scum. Try to do it in as few words as possible and in as organized a format as you can. I am already kicking myself for the quote walls in this game.
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Post Post #235 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:44 am

Post by Gerhard Krause »

I think he's town.

No scum player would ever play that idiotically D1 and expect not to be lynched. He just doesn't care, and the problem with that is that scum who don't care and town who don't care look exactly the same. So to me this wagon has 1/12 chance of hitting scum, and I don't buy it.

Any of you who "support" this wagon, please answer me as to why 5cvm is more likely to be scum than mr.suave, kiku, or nachomamma.
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Post Post #236 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:50 am

Post by kikuchiyo »

Please respond in full to my post. Btw, your odds are a bit off.
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Post Post #237 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:14 am

Post by HackerHuck »

I would say that it's not a policy lynch to go after 5cvm for his behaviour and even Green Crayons has corroborated my assertion that scum do act that way from time to time. Yes, townies gambit too, but townies also do scummy things and get lynched for them, so that's a really crap reason not to vote for him. As to why he's higher on my list than those others, I don't really like the case on Nacho and while Kiku is creeping up my scum list with her reactions to your vote, I'm still happier lynching either Mr Suave or 5cvm. Considering my original vote was on 5cvm and nothing convinces me that Mr Suave is
more
likely to be scum, I'm not going to change my vote.

We've got a few more days until 5cvm is back though, so we definitely don't want to sit on our hands until then.

What are the thoughts on Raider's recent contribution. I'm starting to get the feeling that he's lurking until something happens that he can join in on.
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Post Post #238 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:36 am

Post by Green Crayons »

For what it's worth, I'm getting and have been getting exceptionally strong scum vibes off of raider. It's a feeling I've had for quite some time, but 233 sort of clinches the deal.

233 is "poor me, walls o' text just confuse my poor townie brain!" Bleck. I've played with him before. He's not incompetent or impotent - which is the mirage he's trying to build for himself.


pre-post edit: Just saw Huck's 237. I felt obligated to comment on raider's actions/attitude before seeing Huck's request for comment. Mutual, independent suspicion is comforting.
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Post Post #239 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:48 am

Post by Gerhard Krause »

@Kiku

1) Unable to articulate? He didn't post anything. He just said he had a bad feeling about me. A couple posts later it's because of how I voted, which are not inconsistent, but taking into account the timeline it doesn't. Yes, perhaps he wanted to gauge reactions, but I find that very unlikely. What sort of reactions would he be looking for? His vote wasn't nearly strong enough to get a wagon going, so what? Let's see who else has a bad feeling about Gerhard? That doesn't make sense. If that's what he wanted he would have gotten more of a reaction by just asking everyone.

2) For the umpteenth time, my suspicion of you has absolutely nothing to do with 5cvm on any level in any way. Get that into your brian. I am suspicious of you because you have not established a position. Not because you do or don't suspect 5cvm specifically. You're riding the back of this wagon without even being on it. It's ridiculous.

3) My logic is sound. There are other possibilities, but I deem them unlikely, and not useful to bring up in discussion until the become important.

4) I have already laid out my thoughts on Nacho. 5cvm's move was stupid and anti-town, but not necessarily scummy.

5) I am doing no such thing. If new evidence were to be presented, I would consider switching. I would not have a problem lynching him because he is anti-town, but I would also have to be convinced that he is probably
scum
.

The massive difference between you and me, is I have laid out exactly who I think are most likely to be scum and why. You have done nothing close. I still have no idea who you think the scum are, just a vague idea that you would be ok with lynching 5cvm, and that you want to "encourage discussion," which is nice, but completely meaningless. I do that as scum all the time.
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Post Post #240 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:50 am

Post by Gerhard Krause »

EBWOP: I see what you are saying about raider. It is similar to what Kiku is doing, she's just better at it.

I'll bump him up to 3rd on my scum list, after Nacho and Kiku.
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Post Post #241 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:06 pm

Post by wolframnhart »

unvote


I would like to hear from 5cvm first, depending on what he says my vote might end up back on him, but I don't want someone with an itchy hammer finger to vote him then say they didn't know he was at L-1.
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Post Post #242 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:03 pm

Post by Gerhard Krause »

Seriously, why are people voting 5cvm? Kiku is
such
a better candidate, even Mr.Suave would be better.

Personally though, I think my case on Kiku is much better than my case on Nachomamma8, ironically because Kiku convinced me my tell wasn't as sure as I thought it was. So with that in mind,
unvote, Vote: Kikuchiyo


Also I don't have my probabilities wrong. If you want me to discount myself, that's reasonable. 1/11 of hitting scum. Happy? 5cvm is simply not going to flip scum. Yes he
might
be the scum, but he's played so deplorably bad, and attracted so much attention without advancing the mafia's goals at all. How is that scum mindset? That's what Kiku said in the beginning. He's just an asshole, or he doesn't care, or both.

We need to be lynching the people we are surest are scum, not the people whose play we don't like. If he lasts to Lylo he may be a liability, but are we really going to try and clean the town of bad townies rather than clean it of scum? I don't think so.

5cvm needs to get his act together, and if he tries to hide behind me saying we shouldn't lynch him, then he's probably scum, but for now there is no reason to be voting him over Kiku, Nacho, or Mr.Suave.

@HackerHuck - You just illustrated my point beautifully.
HackerHuck wrote:I would say that it's not a policy lynch to go after 5cvm for his behaviour and even Green Crayons has corroborated my assertion that scum do act that way from time to time. Yes, townies gambit too, but townies also do scummy things and get lynched for them, so that's a really crap reason not to vote for him. As to why he's higher on my list than those others, I don't really like the case on Nacho and while Kiku is creeping up my scum list with her reactions to your vote, I'm still happier lynching either Mr Suave or 5cvm. Considering my original vote was on 5cvm and nothing convinces me that Mr Suave is more likely to be scum, I'm not going to change my vote.
You just said here that scum behave that way from time to time. I'd bet hard cash that scum behave the way Kiku is right now a hell of a lot more, especially in an experienced game such as this. I'd love to convince you to lynch Kiku, but I'd be willing to settle for Mr.Suave. Since you seem to be fairly even in your suspicion of him and 5cvm, can I get you to vote Mr.Suave instead? I think he is much more likely to be scum than 5cvm, and he's been lurking away the wagon on him since it started. 5cvm is on V/LA, Mr.Suave isn't. So where is he? Oh yeah,
avoiding attention.
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Post Post #243 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:11 pm

Post by xvart »

MrSuave wrote:Happy new years everyone!
I would be willing to switch votes from 5cvm to MrSuave based on this post alone.
Gerhard Krause wrote:Also I don't have my probabilities wrong. If you want me to discount myself, that's reasonable. 1/11 of hitting scum. Happy?
So you think there is only one scum in this game? The odds of randomly hitting a scum member is probably around 25% - 33% (if there are three or four scum respectively).

@5cvm
(when you return): are you going to give us the details of your role inspired gambit if you are forced to claim?

xvart.
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Post Post #244 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:35 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

@Nacho - I'm sorry I lost you. The whole case boils down to the fact that you did not have reasons for your vote until after you placed it. The only way that is possible, since you didn't have any other reasons, is that you fabricated those reasons after you placed the vote itself.

Town have no reason to do this, since they are actually trying to find scum, ergo you are scum.
I DID have reasons for my vote. I STATED said reasons for my vote. In the next post, I CLARIFIED said reasons. You criticized me for not checking the reasons in my vote. I pointed out that it was 1:00 AM when I CLARIFIED (not made, CLARIFIED) my vote. Then, you go on some tangent where I dropped an obvious scumtell.

@Kiku: Had GK voted 5cvm, I would be a lot more suspicious of him. It would mean he had hopped on every bandwagon presented to him thus far. If 5cvm ends up flipping scum, however, GK will be my top suspect.
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Post Post #245 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

xvart wrote:
MrSuave wrote:Happy new years everyone!
I would be willing to switch votes from 5cvm to MrSuave based on this post alone.
So you noticed Suave avoiding/picking up a prod by wishing every one a Happy New Years too?
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Post Post #246 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:14 pm

Post by Gerhard Krause »

xvart wrote:I would be willing to switch votes from 5cvm to MrSuave based on this post alone.
Great. Do it.

unvote, vote:Mr.Suave


@Nacho - There is no way you are going to convince me that's what happened, but I'm willing to drop it for now since there are two people I'd rather lynch than you.
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Post Post #247 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:26 pm

Post by Budja »

Prodding Unity.
I'm glad to see posting has picked up again
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Post Post #248 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:34 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

I just re-read the votecount, and saw that Suave had 1 vote on him.

Vote: MrSuave

@Nacho - There is no way you are going to convince me that's what happened, but I'm willing to drop it
for now
since there are two people I'd rather lynch than you.
That was a conversation that was a bit frustrating for me. So, if you make a case on me again and it's based entirely on that "scumtell", I'm not responding. I told you what happened, you don't believe me. That's something that I can't change, so... yeah.
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Post Post #249 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:39 pm

Post by Gerhard Krause »

Fair enough. Fortunately you aren't the person I have to convince to lynch you. However, I am not going to revisit the case on you until there is more to add.

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