Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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If the scum don't have a NK until we give one to them I don't think we can hand out powers democraticly. My reasoning is this fully 33% of the game is scum, thus any vote we do to determine who gets imprinted is largely in their favour due to having a 4 person voting block. So if / when we are handing out powers I think it needs to be done via dice roll for at least the first day or two.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Problem with that is the town-scum ratio, with 8-4 if we mislynch today then give the scum a NK we start day two with 6 town and 4 scum. Now the problem with imprinting everyone is that the we don't know which people to lynch is people start dying as we don't have enough spare towns people to last the days it would take to lynch until we found the scum with the NK ability.Vala Mal Doran wrote:How is a dice roll any better? If people vote for an imprint, that's information and discussion we get out of it. If people vote to imprint someone who's later found out as scum, we can take a closer look at the people in favour of imprinting that person, which is essentially a gold mine of information we would not have if we determined an imprint by dice roll.
Basically theres a whole lot a scum and not that many town, thus voting is tilted in scum favour, so by randomizing we remove that. Now if we randomly chose a player day 1 and repeatedly imprint them and vote NL until they find scum we have a 66% of winning right now and honestly with a 2-1 town to scum ratio that's a hell of a lot better win % then playing the game straight up.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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No we aren't, they have a 4 man group that can vote in concert, we have 8 individuals. 4 man informed minority votes much stronger then 8 uninformed majority.elvis_knits wrote: This is wrong. And scummy.
There are 4 scum and 8 town. You're making it sound like town is in the minority. We are twice as strong at the scum right now.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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We can't play this game like normal if we want to win IMO, 8-4 is unwinnable by town in regular mafia, thus playing this like a regular game of mafia seems a terrible call.elvis_knits wrote: We need to play this game like normal and decide who we think is scum, lynch them, and in the process, decide who we think is town, and vote for the imprint based on that.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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I''d be down with imprinting 1 person over and over agian while voting NL over and over agian then once that person has found the scum, spend 4 days lynching them all. That gives us a straight up 66% chance of winning if we do it D1, do you think in a 8-4 game if we play regularly we have a >66% chance of winning?elvis_knits wrote:So you're saying we should elect randomly?
That's like saying we should also lynch randomly because otherwise scum have too much control.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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I completly agree with empowering only 1 person, but how would we decide who?elvis_knits wrote: What I want is that we give powers to a few (or maybe 1) person that we think is town.
If you don't like dice rolls (and please enough with the ad hominem monkey comments) then what do you think is the best method for determining who we empower?-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Yes it would take quite a while but a win for town on D25 is as much a win as a win on D4.
The dice a player and continually empower them while voting NL means we can't lose if we random a townsfolk (66%). Now if it takes thirty days, well we can't lose during them so why does it matter how long it takes?-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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lol, last 2 pages have been a discussion over that very idea.SerialClergyman wrote:Meh, I PM'd iam about this thinking it might be boringly breaking the game, but if you vote nl and imprint one person say 100 times, till they hve a cop result on everyone, then you lynch them. If they are scum, rinse and repeat with a different townie, if they are town follow the cop.
I think that breaks it, theoretically even with naive/paranoid cops if you did it enough.
But yeah, it would be boring as batshit.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Oh I fully agree it will be boring as hell. But hey blame the set up not me, the player distrabution makes it pretty much impossible to try to win this via voting.
The dice up a superman plan provides town the best chance to win thus I support it, hell maybe after we establish the the empower player X vote no NL thing and run it through a couple times the mod will let us call the game done.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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I did, we just get a large enough sample size to determine what results were fraudulent.Only time that wouldn't work was if every cop role is paranoid/naive which I don't see happening in a game where the town is as weak as this one.SerialClergyman wrote: And I don't think you have considered naive or paranoid results.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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I don't your vote is scummy, I do however think it's lazy and not helpful to town at all.
Also I'm not breaking the spirit of the game at all, it's the towns job to try their best to win, you who voted for someone not because you think they are scum or want to pressure them but out of boredom are are much more agianst the spirit of the game then I am.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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@ Pug89I'm working under the assumption that the scum is competent thus won't vote for the same person as a group enough so that we can form a pattern. Also agreed about Deathnotes post.
@ Elvis_knits,The one cop result even is paranoid/naive/insane we simply get a large enough sample size of results to make the few fraudulent results obvious.
My main problem with playing this as a regular game is once the scum gets a NK at any point in the game, we lose if we have made 2 mislynchs. Making only 1 mislynchs during the course of the game when the scum get 4 votes seems nigh impossible.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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You make yourself sound very dangerous to town when its in a game with a very very small margin of error. Also does this mean you will lurk / leave the game the moment you stop having fun?Vala Mal Doran wrote: This is my entire point. I think having fun with the game is far, far more important than winning. If playing for fun decreases our chances of winning, then so be it.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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My suggestion includes imprinting so many times get every what we need repeatedly. I commented when I did because thats when I caught up, if you will notice the time stamps those posts were going up at a rate that meant by the time I posted and checked back there was more to respond to.Plum wrote: Buttonmanwhyare you assuming that a Town-imprintee is going to get 1-shot Cop four times, or even at all?
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Buttonman, why do you comment that DN's plan is bad on page four when he's been pushing it since like page 1?
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Buttonman, you also make my gutdar click.
In closing I must ask is gutdar good or bad?-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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EBYOP:
Ow!Plum wrote:It may just be reverse halo effect because she's arguing sanely against players who've been acting like DN and Buttonman.
Anyways yes my suggested solution is even less fun then paint drying and I can only hope that if we do implement it succesfully the mod will call the game or something rather then force us to run through it a few dozen times.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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If I am understanding correctly are you saying only the cop power role helps town? Cause I'm kinda thinking Docs,Trackers and roleblocker will come in really handy in this set up.DeathNote wrote: Hmm... no I am pretty sure I am right. The only role that benefits would be a cop role. Unless you have proof otherwise, perhaps an example of what role could possibly help beside cop?-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Your reasoning seems terribad, roleblockers can block the person who got imprinted the previous round (doing nothing if they were town but locking them down if they are mafia), Docs can protect confirmed townies (who in this set up are worth their weight in gold), Trackers can see if a previously imprinted person is still active (Thus if they are town or scum).DeathNote wrote: Nope, I don't think so. At least they wont help if we only pick one or two people a day. If the person we pick gets a tracker role, who the hell is he going to track? No one has powers. Docs have no one to protect and roleblockers have no one to block. N2 might be different if we give a scum player a power role, but other then that... no other roles help.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Ugh not too fond of the this added rule.
As without it town can win 100% of the time, but the mod has spoken. So then with the easy town win off the table I guess it's time to get down to business and apparently by business I mean a discussion on imprinting.iamausername wrote:If three consecutive days and nights go by with no deaths, I'll declare the game a draw. Standard Happily Ever After clause.
So@Everyonewhere do you stand on it, what level do you think is best (Imprint all, most, few, one or none) andwhy?-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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In that case town wins 100% of the time,
Step 1: Select someone at random for imprinting.
Step 2: Vote No Lynch
Step 3: Following day vote the same person for imprinting.
Rinse and repeat a few dozen times until that player claims to have confirmed investigations on each player. By confirmed I mean investigate each player twice and see if the results match, if they don't reinvestigate.
Step 4: The inprinted player gives us the mafia.
Step 5: We lynch the player who gave us the list.
Step 6: If they are town we hang everyone on said list, if they are scum we start agian at Step 1.
Town literally can't lose.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Sorry its just whenever I'm faced by a system I don't haven't used before (like this imprinting thing) I try to break it down and see how it can be used best, which lead to me playing a rousing game of theory rather then mafia.
Now I'd like to point out the one problem with my Step by Step Guide to World Domination, while flawless it requires town to go along with it. Thus if town says no to whole no lynch thing over and over again it falls apart.
Now this seems to be a interesting if slightly problematic game design that I'd be interested in seeing play out. So while it is anti town to say so, if the general consensuses is lets play it out. I'm prepared to say;
No lynches? Sounds boring, Fuck that noise.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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SerialClergyman said in this first post wrote:imprint elvis_knits
imprint SerialClergymanelvis_knits wrote:Imprint: SerialClergyman
Imprint: elvis_knits@SerialClergymanWhy did you inprint elvis_knits in your very first post? Especially since you have then said that you feel it's best to lynch without imprinting.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Please note I directed the question at him not you, you already laid out your reasons for the imprinting. Though I disagree with them I can at least understand it.elvis_knits wrote: At the time I voted to imprint us, I really didn't care that it looked odd since I thought my conclusion that we were both town was pretty obvious. But I do understand why it might make people a little paranoid.
Serial on the other hand first post voted to inprint you two, then went on to say multiple times how he thought the best play was to inprint nobody. Hence me asking the question.-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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I disagree with it because several people made that mistake of assuming scum started with NK but of them you only cleared yourself and Serial, who had in the past voted to also inprint you and himself.elvis_knits wrote: Why do you disagree with my reasons for imprinting SC and me? Do you think we could be faking or do you think scum are dumb enough not to understand their own kill mechanic?-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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If a infinite number of town uses of imprinting with no scum kills wouldn't win we can tell somethings about imprinting. Possibilities include;iamausername wrote:The best part of all this is that your plan wouldn't even work, because I did actually consider potential game-breaking strategies when designing the set up, because I'mnot an idiot. But I didn't want to say so, because I thought it might reveal setup info that I didn't want to reveal
A) There is no investigative imprints.
B) Imprinting has a chance to kill you.
C) Imprinting may change your alignment.
D) Scum can get imprinted by some method other then the vote.
E) Some imprints effect multiple people.
If anyone else think of other ways that a infinite number of town imprints wouldn't win please add them.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Sorta? Also if you given up on that plan, what are your thoughts now?DeathNote wrote: Since then, I sorta gave up on my idea as it would mean giving scum their night kills which I thought they all ready had.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Lynching gives us information where as imprinting probably won't, also the mafia wouldn't NK tonight even if they got a power that allows NK'ing they would just claim to been a doctor or some such.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Uh? We have had 2 people just post V/La or will read later and I not post at all.....DeathNote wrote:
No. I think that everyone else is more town at the moment.Messiah wrote:Wait, do you think everyone other than ek is town?Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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You voted for him because of his plan of imprinting everyone, yet he claimed that plan was because he didn't know the scum had NK's. Now you voted to imprint yourself and serial because both of you posted in manners that suggested that you didn't know the scum had NK's.elvis_knits wrote:So I should ignore that completely scummy thing he did because he took it back?
Am I misunderstanding your reason for voting for him?Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Those questions require an astounding amount of speculation, meaning that even if she did answer them it would be both quite easy to find flaws in the explanation and also it would be completely useless to town.SerialClergyman wrote: Why didn't elvis choose a scum mate who hadn't imprinted her in his first post of the day? When was the plan hatched? Why didn't I imprint more than just one of my scumbuddies? Why didn't I answer her question the first time?
Here's some questions I'd rather answered, do you have any town tells on Elvis you want to share (seeing as your defending her and imprinting her)?, Why are so confident that Starbuck is scum and could you explain what the Starbuck&Deathnote connection is?Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
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Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Ugh, Not a fan of that logic at all. People voting to imprint you shouldn't change your thoughts on them at all, what you basically said there was that you can be bribed.Starbuck wrote: He also paid me the favor of voting to imprint me, so I figured I'd return it.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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@ SerialClergyman, in that wall o'text you mention several times that Starbuck kept pushing the problem was Deathnotes idea not that he was scummy, yet the reason you think he's scummy is because of his idea. So I'm not seeing what your trying to get at here? Also all my previous questions to you (Post 212) still stand.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Heh I saw the future and answered your question before you could post!
Post 221 contains my current thoughts on it, I'm not quite understand your argument.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Odd that you knew I said I still had some questions for you outstanding but you didn't know where/what they are.SerialClergyman wrote:Also - what questions still stand? Could you grab them for me and I'll answer them?
As when I said they still stood I made sure to give you the post number, but anyways.TheButtonmen wrote:Also all my previous questions to you (Post 212) still stand.
Right now your saying Starbuck is scummy because of her obsessive defense on Death Note but I read the post you quoted as more Elvis-centric hence I didn;t really find it obsessive. You say you think Elvis is town and I'm wondering why, you explained why she would be a good imprint target earlier and that you support her plan for imprinting but not never why you think she's town and why do you think Deathnote is scum and what's his connection to Starbuck(You already explained why you think 'Buck is scum and her connection to DN.)TheButtonmen Post 212 wrote:Here's some questions I'd rather answered, do you have any town tells on Elvis you want to share (seeing as your defending her and imprinting her)?, Why are so confident that Starbuck is scum and could you explain what the Starbuck&Deathnote connection is?Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
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Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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EBYOP:
Hmm intresting somehow I compeltly skipped Post 234 and only saw Post 235, downgrading that vote to a FoS
Unvote, FoS SerialClergymanRoutine day with a dirt cheap brush
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Pretty much in agreement with Messiah here.Messiah wrote: Far too much of it seems to be that you think she is "obsessed with" and "defends" DN, but I don't see the huge scumtell there. The only way that her defense of DN could be scummy in my eyes is if DN was scum, but you say that you only think DN is scum in the first place because starbuck defended him. It just doesn't add up.(If you feel that it's unfair to say that most of your case is based around the way she talks about DN then we should discuss that, as it would change the way I view the case considerably.)Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
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Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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As I said in my EBYOP: (Post 238) I somehow managed to completely miss post 234. Which made me read post 235 as super scummy.SerialClergyman wrote: @Button - what about my play makes you think I am scum? ?Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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See your throwing around words like "Obsessive" and "Often" allot yet Starbuck defended Deathnote as far as I can tell in all of 2 posts, you on the other hand have defended Elvis in 6-7 times. So if your read on Starbuck is due to her defending Deathnote "Obsessively" then I'd love to know why your so confident in your Elvis read that you defending her three times more often then a "Obsessive" amountSerialClergyman wrote:Look at it this way - why would town defend someone she thinks is at BEST null? Why would she do it so often?Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
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Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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I get what your saying but its a two edged sword, if we NL and imprint we know more about the imprinting process / effects and can make better decisions tomorrow based on what we learn about imprinting and what the imprinted person learns. But if we lynch today the imprinted person can A) use their powers better (due to having voting information) and and let's us vote / hand out power(s) better tomorrow by having allot more to go on due to flip and voting.Limerickx wrote: I just feel, with scum 100% not having a kill as of this very moment, tomorrow is just sort of an extension of today. If we imprint and don't lynch, today+tomorrow is basically one long day in my eyes, only with the added information that comes from knowing what sort of imprints are out there, and anything else we might learn from what is revealed during the night phase.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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This about perfectly sums up my thoughts on how to proceed at this point in the game.SerialClergyman wrote: lynching is less dangerous to the town than imprinting. If we were to lynch without imprinting, the worst that happens is we're down to 7 townies and 4 scum and have a wagon's worth of information.
If we imprint without lynching, we get all sorts of random bits of information that will be genuinely hard to piece together, and worse case scenario is that we permanently give scum abilities.
Thus I'm in favour of a lynch and very few if any at all imprints.
@Valathe constant posting of scum / town lists seem odd to me as well however given the nature of imprinting I guess they aren't as odd as they would be in a regular set up, as for the Lewis thing, I don;t really read it as a scumtell as it was his first / only post thus far. It would have pinged my scumdar more if he hadn't posted a postion on anything as then I would have suspected him of active lurking, so while his vote did seem a bit out of place I don't see it as a scumtell.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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DeathNote wrote:If I unimprint someone, its because i don't get a town vibe from them. Lew's post seem off.He lacks as opinion on the issues of the game which everyone should have an opinion on at the moment.@ DeathNoteI'd appreciate it if no one else answered it for him, What issues are those?Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
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Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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DeathNote wrote:If I unimprint someone, its because i don't get a town vibe from them. Lew's post seem off.He lacks as opinion on the issues of the game which everyone should have an opinion on at the moment.
See it strikes me if you had even read his posts he touched on two of them and placed a vote based on the third. So instead I have to assume you removed him from your list of canadites because he was taking flak from people, then when questioned as to why you removed it you made up a reason without checking. If I'm wrong I'd love to know what i missed as going with whatever is popular at the moment is not exactly the best scum hunting technique.DeathNote wrote:Why do you find the need to call me out like that? Has someone been answering questions for me and making it seem like I am not fit to give responses for myself?
Issues discussed this game:
1. The controversy over the various plans people have suggested, my plan of imprinting everyone being one such topic.
2. The issues of Starbuck seemingly defending me against Elvis for coming up with said plan above.
3. SerialClergyman attacking Starbuck for defending me, and inadvertently defending Elvis in the process.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Once finals are over (Oh blessed day) I need to go back and meta some people. Also the following keeps coming up and makes me kinda nervous as to what I'll find.
Vala Mal Doran wrote: And on that note, if I didn't already know DN's meta is to post very curtly and anti-townly like this, I would have buried him ages ago.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Since you brought it up I would point out Plum has been active in her other games, yet hasn't posted in this one in over 3.5 days.Vala Mal Doran wrote: One of the things I look at when determining who's on what side in an argument I'm not particularly a part of (if somebody's implicating me as scum, I will inevitably have bias against that person and can't think so objectively) is how many are lurking, particularly how many people have started lurking since an argument started. If a valuable scum is on the line, there are sure to be very few inactives. (If an invaluable or overtly scummy scum is on the line, people might lurk anyway in order to not implicate themselves)
There are exactly four people who I feel are not posting enough: lewarcher, Jason, DN, and Plum. That's enough to make up a scumteam of people lazing around drinking margaritas while town beats up town.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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I find with meta's like Death Notes I find it allot harder to find connections / scumtells due to second guessing and not knowing how much to read into their reactions to pressure.Vala Mal Doran wrote:
Why are you nervous about what you'll find?TheButtonmen wrote:Once finals are over (Oh blessed day) I need to go back and meta some people. Also the following keeps coming up and makes me kinda nervous as to what I'll find.
Vala Mal Doran wrote: And on that note, if I didn't already know DN's meta is to post very curtly and anti-townly like this, I would have buried him ages ago.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Who suggested a policy lynch? You have 2 votes on you....DeathNote wrote:Why should my meta not be consistent? People are too use to conformity on this site and policy lynch any suggestions that are different from what they are used too. I am one who believes and fresh ideas and radical thinking so try to take that into consideration before kill me off. (goes for every game)Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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If we lynched you and your really not helping your case with comments like that. It would be because you did / said things that were felt to be scummy. That's not a policy lynch....DeathNote wrote:
Because I know how this will turn out. My tactic right now is called, appeal to emotion.elvis_knits wrote:How is that a policy lynch?Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Awsome so two people voted for you, so your going to stop playing and take your ball home. Boo Fudgin Hoo You don't want to be voted, how about you play the game and scumhunt rather then complain.DeathNote wrote: Before I am policy lynched, make sure the town has figured out who they want to imprint today. You might as well start scumhunting for tomorrow too. No sense and not getting ahead of the game.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Not quite sure what your trying to say here? WHy would you only get to use it once?SerialClergyman wrote:You wouldn't agree to imprint me knowing I'd only have the chance to use it once if dn is town, even if I was scum?Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Yes I have thoughts;SerialClergyman wrote: I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.
Thoughts?
Vote: SerialClergyman
Your trying to order lynch's in advance, your creating dichotomies and your still trying to get us to imprint elvis even though theres no reason to belive shes town.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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There's so many things wrong with that plan, infact with DN"s sudden push for his own policy lynch then you presenting this "plan" it seems to me your planning a bussing that gives your a free mislynch, gives mafia 2 power roles.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up-
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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