I think, given this information and the fact that there's 8 town and 4 scum, we should be as careful as possible about who we imprint.iamausername wrote:Rogue actives do not have the ability to night kill, unless they receive an imprint that grants this ability. Apologies for not making this clearer from the beginning.
1.) No, I think you would have reacted the same way regardless of alignment. I don't know how you expect to accomplish anything with it, though.VMD wrote:@everyone: is my voting for buttonmen for blatantly trying to break the game scummy? Is buttonmen scummy for trying to break the game, or is being against the spirit of the game acceptable?
I didn't realize it at the time, but this is a very good point. He presents a false dilemma, leaving out the option that is best for the town. This coupled with his push to proceed with a plan that would most likely be harmful to the town is a good reason toPug89 wrote:I really don't like this post. It seems like he is trying to force the town to choose either empowering everyone or no one and ignores the third option of imprinting only a few people (which is what Elvis actually suggested).
I agree with this plan. We should probably imprint 2-3 people at most.ek wrote:What I think we should do: lynch someone today AND give imprints to a limited number of players who we think are town. I don't really care how many, but we should probably not stretch it too far.
Yeah, sorry about posting infrequently; I don't have access to a computer at the moment.VMD wrote:I'd also like to hear more from Plum and Messiah
Uh, really? You're calling half of the scum team at the beginning of d1 based on starbuck finding DN only slightly suspicious? That certainly is an overreaction, and a scummy one at that.SC wrote:<--- is calling right now Starbuck scum with Deathnote. Write that down, keep it safe, check it on reveal.
This line of questioning doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than to make starbuck appear scummy through no fault of her own.SC wrote: For the record, would you go over exactly how you think elvis and my scheme went down if we were scum? Why didn't elvis choose a scum mate who hadn't imprinted her in his first post of the day? When was the plan hatched? Why didn't I imprint more than just one of my scumbuddies? Why didn't I answer her question the first time?
No, that wouldn't be the same thing at all. You've given plenty of content to get a decent read off of, whereas lewarcher hasn't.starbuck wrote:That's also a loaded question because due to personal obligations, I wasn't able to post until today. That'd be like asking someone else if they think I'm town after I haven't posted for the past few days.
You say there's nothing inherently scummy about trying to confirm yourself, which is true, but you're ignoring the reasons why in this particularSC wrote: She is discrediting elvis constantly. There's nothing inherently scummy about trying to clear yourself, there's certainly nothing inherently scummy about trying to clear someone else (doubly especially if that person is town). Yet Starbuck uses that as an argument against her constantly. It's purely done to discredit the finding. There's a natural distrust of people who speak about clearing themselves, as I learnt in my first game of mafia, but that should lead you to doubt the conclusion, not incriminate the person suggesting the theory. I say again, just because elvis suggested it doesn't mean it's not a good idea, nor does it mean she's scummy, nor does it mean it can be dismissed. Her actions have town motivations as well as scum motivations.
So you're saying starbuck is scum because she mentions DN a lot but has a neutral read on him? I don't get the scumtell here at all.SC wrote: If she'd come out and said he was town I could have perhaps understood her obsession with him in the first section, but she didn't. She did the classic can't-say-my-buddy-is-town-can't-say-he's-scum thing and said he was kinda scummy, but there's nonetheless reason not to vote him. This is perhaps more gut, but this is EXACTLY what scum talking about their buddy look like.
Sure. It has a couple of legitimate points(as well as some I completely disagree with). Far too much of it seems to be that you think she is "obsessed with" and "defends" DN, but I don't see the huge scumtell there. The only way that her defense of DN could be scummy in my eyes is if DN was scum, but you say that you only think DN is scum in the first place because starbuck defended him. It just doesn't add up.(If you feel that it's unfair to say that most of your case is based around the way she talks about DN then we should discuss that, as it would change the way I view the case considerably.)SC wrote:Did you have any thoughts on my case against her?
LA82 wrote:Pages 1-5: Nothing!
So you have nothing to say about 9 of the nearly eleven pages?LA82 wrote:I spent a hell of a lot of time reading the four huge pages that have been written in the last 15 hours or so, to discover....
.... almost nothing
Because the reason given for why you two should be confirmed is weak and you both just outright dismiss the legitimate reasons why that is.SC wrote:OK, so what are the reasons why in this particular case it's bad?
I normally don't like townlists but revealing who you think is town in thisVMD wrote:Also, before I get started, how does everyone feel about posting scumlists and particularly townlists in this game?
I think the part that's confusing you is my use of the word point when I should have used catch.LA wrote:Messiah, who in post 82 is enthusiastic about this reading, is invited to explain why she agrees with pug on a point that I do not see.
Did I change my mind more than once? IIRC I only did once, from Limerick's plan to ek's. That was because I decided that imprinting somewhat randomly would be a bad idea, and that we should use the information gained from playing a normal day of mafia to decide who to imprint.LA wrote:Messiah 117: you were supporting different plans earlier. Why did you change your mind more than once?
Because everyone who disagrees with you is pro-scum, right?SC wrote:The town feeling around here is what I'd regard as pro-scum
Did anyone actually say that?SC wrote:b) That one should not defend someone one thinks is town
Your plan is pretty much terrible because your flipping town doesn't make Starbuck/DN scum or confirm ek as town, nor would your flipping scum make ek automatically be scum either. Do you honestly think that way?SC wrote:I would like everyone to reply to my suggestion about lynching me and then having a course of action after that - whether you think it's a good idea, a bad idea, whether you're prepared to do it or not.
I didn't get any fake or contrived feelings from his break-the-game posts.Reck wrote:Why Buttonmen?
I should add that I'm not talking in just definites here, I don't see why it would make any of those distinctly more likely either.Messiah wrote:Your plan is pretty much terrible because your flipping town doesn't make Starbuck/DN scum or confirm ek as town, nor would your flipping scum make ek automatically be scum either. Do you honestly think that way?
This. What you're suggesting, SC, is tantamount to us ignoring our own reads in favor of acting on yours if you flip town, or assuming the people you're calling town are scum if you flip scum. I don't consider that a viable strategy at all. Confirmed town are often incorrect and confirmed scum could have simply been bussing/distancing.Reck wrote:I wouldn't say my read on you is indicative of my read on elvis_knits at this point. The opposite also does not apply.
The same goes for DN/Starbuck.
Also this.farside22 wrote:Now you're just ignoring the point the reck and myself made about the confirmed town comment from EK. She calls you both confirmed town based on a weak reason. The role sent to the scum does not say they have a kill but again I could post a multitude of role PM that do not include that line when they send out roles. It's an assumption that mafia has a NK just because you talked about it in thread with this assumption does not make you town.SerialClergyman wrote:EK has primarily been attacked for trying to confirm the two of us as town. I'm telling you I have a read of her as town. If I am killed and confirmed town myself, that means she went to a lot of effort to try to confirm a townie and you can be sure that my read of her is well-intentioned - both of these things make her more likely to be town.
You're still ignoring the fact that your and SC's obvtown reads on each other are based on weak reasons.ek wrote:Also, equating Starbuck defense of DN to me and SC is not a fair comparison. We have a specific reason to think the other is town. Starbuck has no reason to think DN is town.
As you probably already guessed, I completely disagree with this. There wasn't anything in the rules or role pm's that could lead anyone to believe that the scum didn't have a NK. And before you say it, no, I don't think it's even remotely likely that hyposcum-SC would have read the scum role pm and automatically assumed the scumteam don't possess a NK when hypotown-SC would have.(Actually, I don't think anyone would assume that, for that matter.)ek wrote:The odds of SC being scum who didn't know his NK mechanic are very low, IMO.
I don't. I think SC is likely scum, but that has nothing to do with you, like I said in my last post.ek wrote:If you think me and Sc are scum, you need to comment on this:
This should read: And before you say it, no, I don't think it's even remotely likely that hyposcum-SC would have read the scum role pm and automatically assumed the scumteam don't possess a NK when hypotown-SC woudn't have.Messiah wrote:And before you say it, no, I don't think it's even remotely likely that hyposcum-SC would have read the scum role pm and automatically assumed the scumteam don't possess a NK when hypotown-SC would have.
There's more than one explanation that would make sense to me, but I'm a big fan of the one where there was almost certainly no chance anyone would go for his plan, it had the potential to make him seem town, and if for some reason we did go along with his plan he would at least get town-ek(Whom he would consider a substantial threat to his scumteam) lynched.ek wrote:Messiah, why do you think scumSC would offer to have us lynch him?
I can't speak for everyone, but the reason that I reject your plan has nothing to do with not wanting to lynch DN, it's because of the ridiculous "If I'm town than all of my reads are 100% correct and you should base all of your decisions on those instead of your own reads" thing.SC wrote:Elvis - not one person feeling out whether any of my lynch DN then me type plans is a good idea and all of them being rejected out of hand suggests to me that DN is scum for the same reason you just came to your elvis and sc are town conclusion.
Of course it would, but not to the extent that I would ever agree to lynch his two top suspects and imprint who he thinks is town just because he was confirmed, which is the way I interpreted those plans.ek wrote:OBV you should go by your own reads too, but if SC died and was town, that wouldn't influence you at all?
See, that's a much better plan. I'm down.SC wrote:Ok, new course of action. Let's get a lynch going. Who is up for a good old fashioned dn lynch? No one killing anyone necessarily the next day. Any takers?
" thing. The first paragraph is re: lynching deathnote if you're town, correct? If so, yes, that makes a lot of sense. And the second would make sense from town-ek's perspective as well, but again I feel strongly that her perspective is heavily flawed.SC wrote:Does this make sense?
1.) Uh, he's imprint-voting 10 of the 12 players, so he's also voting nearly all of the players who aren't going to get imprinted. How does this serve to case suspicion solely on three of the ten players he's voting?ek wrote:I especially like these points by SC:
Vote Count #2 wrote:Nevada (3) - Virginia, Colorado, Georgia
QFTfarside wrote:I swear it drives me freeking bonkers that every post I read is that unless people are siding with you and elvis they are scum or just not listening. Like wow I'm so not allowed to my opinion everyone. I just be mindless and just listen to EK and SC.
Do you mean an imprint vote or a regular vote?Lim wrote:Personally, I wouldn't mind having a vote on Pug.
This isn't really correct. SC flipping town at this point would be signficant to me.ek wrote:You know they will not care when you flip town and still keep up with this same BS.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what SC did? He went from "I think starbuck is scum, and if she is DN is probably her scumbuddy" to hammering DN.ek wrote:a busser wouldn't even push all day for the lynch, they might be wishy washy and come on at the end
Heh, maybe. I've wanted SC lynched since day 1, but his posts following DN's flip felt sincere to me at the time and that was enough to temporarilySB wrote:Because I didn't defend him. I was attacking SC and Elvis, but apparently you are too easily blinded by them to think for yourself.
Yes, that would be very cool. I just pulled the quote off the top of my head, which would explain why the whole thing wasn't there. I get your point, though, and you're right.Buttonmen wrote:Do you know what's cool? Quoting entire the whole sentence rather then just a chunk of it.
Er, she didn't say it? I used the word could instead of can, but still.Buttonmen wrote:Also quoting things she actually said would be nice. If they didn't say it don't put it in quote marks, that's again misrepresentation.
When did I say scum could only defend? Of course it's possible for them to buss and ignore.farside wrote:Do you still think only scum defend or is it possible for them to buss and ignore?
Yes, I think it is. Not only did he push SB more than DN on D1, he even said that his case on DN would disappear is SB was town. Which reminds me, can we lynch SC now?farside wrote:Do you think SC pushing more on star over DN for most of the day 1 is scummy in retrospect?