Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[TheButtonmen]

I don't your vote is scummy, I do however think it's lazy and not helpful to town at all.

Also I'm not breaking the spirit of the game at all, it's the towns job to try their best to win, you who voted for someone not because you think they are scum or want to pressure them but out of boredom are are much more agianst the spirit of the game then I am.

[Messiah]

@everyone: is my voting for buttonmen for blatantly trying to break the game scummy? Is buttonmen scummy for trying to break the game, or is being against the spirit of the game acceptable?

1.) No, I think you would have reacted the same way regardless of alignment. I don't know how you expect to accomplish anything with it, though.
2.) Not at all.
3.) He's playing to his win condition(Assuming he's town), so I don't see why it wouldn't be.

That being said, though, I'd prefer to actually play mafia rather than abuse a game mechanic to pull off an effortless win.

[elvis_knits]

Well, when I thought buttonman was misrepping the town's influence (ie, saying there is a lot of scum and not many town sounds like we are in the minority, which is not true), I thought he was scummy.

But I think he is actually trying to win the game (through breaking the game). So that's not scummy.

However, I am not playing a game where we vote nolynch hundreds of times in an effort to get a cop result (which may be paranoid or insane). That is not mafia.

I would rather lose a game of mafia than win a game of whatever Buttonmen is telling us to do.

I also have a bit more faith in my ability to detect scum, and a town's ability to pull together. I don't think we have to lose this game if we go a different route than buttonmen is saying.

[Pug89]

I agree TheButtonMen's plan sounds boring.

No we aren't, they have a 4 man group that can vote in concert, we have 8 individuals. 4 man informed minority votes much stronger then 8 uninformed majority.

That may be true but if the same 4 people consistently vote for the same person all time and those people turn up town the town will notice eventually.

We can't play this game like normal if we want to win IMO, 8-4 is unwinnable by town in regular mafia, thus playing this like a regular game of mafia seems a terrible call.

You're forgetting the fact that in a normal game scum get NKs but in this game they don't unless the get it from being imprinted. This changes things a lot.

Your wrong Elvis. You are bases your read on me from a plan that I suggested to benefit town. I want to point a few things out to you.

1) your making it seem like I am trying to get a power over other people when in fact, I am the only person who does not have a vote for being imprinted.

2) My plan was not my only suggestions, it was simply the most wordy one. I gave two options for town. One with powers and one without. The one without powers is pretty self explanatory and is obviously the route that Elvis wants to choose. I do not care what route we choose but I want people to give reasons for it.

I really don't like this post. It seems like he is trying to force the town to choose either empowering everyone or no one and ignores the third option of imprinting only a few people (which is what Elvis actually suggested).

His first point also seems invalidated because while he may not have a vote to be imprinted if he could convince the town of his plan not only he, but his partners (assuming he is scum) would all gain powers.

@everyone: is my voting for buttonmen for blatantly trying to break the game scummy? Is buttonmen scummy for trying to break the game, or is being against the spirit of the game acceptable?

While I don't agree with TheButtonMen's plan I don't see it as particularly scummy. It doesn't really seem to benefit the scum very much since his plan requires the town NL and the scum can't NK.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I'd prefer to actually play mafia rather than abuse a game mechanic to pull off an effortless win.

This is my entire point. I think having fun with the game is far, far more important than winning. If playing for fun decreases our chances of winning, then so be it.

[TheButtonmen]

@ Pug89

I'm working under the assumption that the scum is competent thus won't vote for the same person as a group enough so that we can form a pattern. Also agreed about Deathnotes post.

@ Elvis_knits,

The one cop result even is paranoid/naive/insane we simply get a large enough sample size of results to make the few fraudulent results obvious.

My main problem with playing this as a regular game is once the scum gets a NK at any point in the game, we lose if we have made 2 mislynchs. Making only 1 mislynchs during the course of the game when the scum get 4 votes seems nigh impossible.

[TheButtonmen]

This is my entire point. I think having fun with the game is far, far more important than winning. If playing for fun decreases our chances of winning, then so be it.

You make yourself sound very dangerous to town when its in a game with a very very small margin of error. Also does this mean you will lurk / leave the game the moment you stop having fun?

[Messiah]

I really don't like this post. It seems like he is trying to force the town to choose either empowering everyone or no one and ignores the third option of imprinting only a few people (which is what Elvis actually suggested).

I didn't realize it at the time, but this is a very good point. He presents a false dilemma, leaving out the option that is best for the town. This coupled with his push to proceed with a plan that would most likely be harmful to the town is a good reason to

vote: DeathNote

[TheButtonmen]

@Deathnote

, Empowering everyone is a terrible terrible terribad idea.

[Pug89]

@ Elvis_knits, The one cop result even is paranoid/naive/insane we simply get a large enough sample

But the only way to confirm is to lynch the player. Also since the imprint will be different each time, there could possibly be more than one investigative imprint with different sanities.

[elvis_knits]

Buttonmen - What if there are multiple cop roles -- one paranoid, one insane, one sane, one naive, but they all just say "cop" in the role pm. And if the imprinter gets different results from different cop roles, they can't even check their sanity because they don't know if they have the same cop role that they did last time.

[elvis_knits]

Good simulpost, pug.

[TheButtonmen]

Agian large enough sample size of results (Let's say 2+ results for each player) allows us to compare them and see any discrepincies, any player whos results conflict we examine twice more. Thus negating sanity as a factor.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Okay, first of all,

unvote

. It's clearly served as much of its purpose as it is going to.

You make yourself sound very dangerous to town when its in a game with a very very small margin of error. Also does this mean you will lurk / leave the game the moment you stop having fun?

That was not my intention. However, try to see it my way: IMO, intentionally breaking the game is, essentially, cheating. Never mind that the mod shouldn't have left the game breakable in the first place, it's just something that I cannot do in good conscience. I want to win, but I want to win fairly, and yes, I WILL leave the game if we are not playing fairly. Scum deserves the chance to win, the mod deserves the chance to see the game play out the way they intended for it to, and town deserves the chance to kick scum's asses fair and square... WITHOUT having to resort to cheating.

[Plum]

Rereading. Nice to come home and find four pages up already, y'all.

Perhaps we try a day without imprints and see how we go? Ugh.. that means we're in lylo if we mislynch.

Nope, because scum don't have killing powers before imprints. No-imprints makes it

Nightless

4:8. Does anyone have the stats on that?

Anyway. It's no good imprinting everybody (well, that's partly under my preconceived notion that the imprint-gains are balanced such that the balance of power remains roughly the same as with no imprints and that to gain an edge on the odds we have to imprint more town than scum proportional to the town/scum ratio). And that means we try to give out multiple imprints but not to people we suspect.

...

Okay, Mod clarified what I'd already gotten. For the record, reading is tech.

As far as I can tell, we have no way of knowing what the imprint will give the user. If we imprint one person, take it to night, we can find out if the imprint gives a normal power-role type power or not. We won't have to worry about a townie dying during the night, becuase scum can't kill, and if a kill DOES happen, it could only be from the one person imprinted. We might get lucky and get a power that can be of a big bonus during the night. If it turns out to be useless, whats the problem?

My problem is not what the imprints do. I'm assuming that the Mod made imprints generally useful to the receiver. While killing is not necessarily a scum-indicator here, the narrowed suspect list is extremely appealing. It has its charms . . . there's no downside except time which hopefully we could prevent from being entirely wasteful (if say we gave out an imprint and No kill occured and imprintee claimed to get a Doc ability we're right back where we started). Better than DeathNote's plan, because, as I said, we need to get more town than scum imprinted proportional to the ratio: that means we need more than 2/3 of the imprintees to be Town, if my ideas about the game balance are correct.

DN, Limerick's plan doesn't hope for a Cop and a guilty investigation; it's an early stage minimal/moderate benefits/extremely minimal risks plan. And, of course, we can go on after implementing that plan and do something else (like imprint a few Townie-seeming people) or modify it as necessary.

Dice roll is not an idea I'm down with. I actually do think that despite the heavy scum ratio we

can

improve our odds - by avoiding giving it out to those who are agreed on by many to be shady (because as nice as dice roll is in theory, there will be some people I think are scummy and I don't see a scenario where I'd try to imprint someone scummy, and the info gained from bandwagons, as VMD said, is essentially another, different type of lynch for information purposes.

Buttonman, 8:4 is unwinnable in regular Mafia, but our base starts out as Nightless, which I'm fairly sure

is

winnable, or at least moreso. So scum have a substantial voting block. That doesn't mean that some people aren't scummy and thus shouldn't get imprint votes.

DN misprepping EK is Post 52 - she didn't suggest we do this with no powers, she just suggests - sanely - that we only give powers to those who appear noticeably pro-Town and refrain from imprinting scummy players. You seem to be painting a false dichotomy which Elvis never suggested and supported. Suffice it to say that

you

won't be getting an imprint vote from me any time soon. Besides, as I said above, I'm pretty sure that the imprinting powers are balanced such that if we imprint everyone Town will be give or take back where it started, which is to say that the plans you suggested are two equivalent extremes of a spectrum where the optimal option is in the middle (sort of; I guess my analogy broke down a little). And yes, your suggestion

was

scummy, you've cleared the category, ready for double jeopardy?

Buttonman

why

are you assuming that a Town-imprintee is going to get 1-shot Cop four times, or even at all?

Ah but if we hand out powers by vote how long do you think it will take the mafia to end up empowered?

This reminds me, to a sick stomach, of the reasoning given for no-Lynching. In this setup, it's a risk, just like lynching is a risk. To win we have to take the double-edged sword and use it to our advantage and avoid using it to our detriment.

That strategy is just as full of holes as everyone other one. No plan will be perfect, but some plans will yield better information then others. It is impossible to find a town player right now. Why? Because we have no bases to know if they are lying.

Scum are just as good at acting town as everyone else.

False. The opposite is a fundamental of Mafia; the informed minority

are

different. You acknowledge that scumhunting is real and has to be done well to win, even if you claim to not be particularly good at it yourself. Now we're challenged to Town hunt; find more Town than scum, just like in lynches overall you look to find more scum than Town (with a variable margin of error).

Buttonman, even if Cop draws do happen more than once or whatnot:

But yeah, it would be boring as batshit.

Yeah, I play to win. But I also play to have fun. In the ruleset they're listed equally. I won't sacrifice one for another, and I don't think I have to.

VMD, I've read scum-Elvis before. Maybe I could do it again. I've also played with her as Town and I see what you're saying. It may just be reverse halo effect because she's arguing sanely against players who've been acting like DN and Buttonman.VMD, your vote: would have been good if just pressure to shut up because Buttonman was getting annoying. Being against the spirit of the game is not scummy, though, and not vote-warranting.

Buttonman, why do you comment that DN's plan is bad on page four when he's been pushing it since like page 1?

Pug also points out the blatantly scummy anti-Elvis stuff by DN which I commented on above.

Vote: DeathNote

Buttonman, you also make my gutdar click.

[TheButtonmen]

Buttonman

why

are you assuming that a Town-imprintee is going to get 1-shot Cop four times, or even at all?
.....
Buttonman, why do you comment that DN's plan is bad on page four when he's been pushing it since like page 1?
......
Buttonman, you also make my gutdar click.

My suggestion includes imprinting so many times get every what we need repeatedly. I commented when I did because thats when I caught up, if you will notice the time stamps those posts were going up at a rate that meant by the time I posted and checked back there was more to respond to.

In closing I must ask is gutdar good or bad?

[DeathNote]

Your wrong Elvis. You are bases your read on me from a plan that I suggested to benefit town. I want to point a few things out to you.

1) your making it seem like I am trying to get a power over other people when in fact, I am the only person who does not have a vote for being imprinted.

2) My plan was not my only suggestions, it was simply the most wordy one. I gave two options for town. One with powers and one without. The one without powers is pretty self explanatory and is obviously the route that Elvis wants to choose. I do not care what route we choose but I want people to give reasons for it.

I really don't like this post. It seems like he is trying to force the town to choose either empowering everyone or no one and ignores the third option of imprinting only a few people (which is what Elvis actually suggested).

His first point also seems invalidated because while he may not have a vote to be imprinted if he could convince the town of his plan not only he, but his partners (assuming he is scum) would all gain powers.

Sorry but your wrong too. My first point was in defense to him saying I was trying to get a power, which I have shown no inclination to do.

I can not force the town to do anything, I am simply placing the options out there. Either choose the path with powers or the path without. I considered the path the Elvis suggested to be aligned without powers. Why? Because giving one or two people ultimately does nothing because we are relying on us picking a town player, him getting a sane cop role, and then using that role to find scum. The odds are null so I consider it like playing without powers.

I really don't like this post. It seems like he is trying to force the town to choose either empowering everyone or no one and ignores the third option of imprinting only a few people (which is what Elvis actually suggested).

I didn't realize it at the time, but this is a very good point. He presents a false dilemma, leaving out the option that is best for the town. This coupled with his push to proceed with a plan that would most likely be harmful to the town is a good reason to

vote: DeathNote

See above...

[TheButtonmen]

EBYOP:

It may just be reverse halo effect because she's arguing sanely against players who've been acting like DN and Buttonman.

Ow!

Anyways yes my suggested solution is even less fun then paint drying and I can only hope that if we do implement it succesfully the mod will call the game or something rather then force us to run through it a few dozen times.

[Plum]

EBYOP:

It may just be reverse halo effect because she's arguing sanely against players who've been acting like DN and Buttonman.

Ow!

Anyways yes my suggested solution is even less fun then paint drying and I can only hope that if we do implement it succesfully the mod will call the game or something rather then force us to run through it a few dozen times.

How sharper than a serpent's tooth . . . :p

If the game is truly breakable my preferred strategy would be for the Mod to fix the leak, rerandomize the roles, and begin the game anew. If that's impossible, blah. I came to win, but more than that I came to play.

DN, wrong

again

. The middle round is banking on more townies getting imprints than scum proportionally and then using whatever powers they get to best advantage. I still don't know why everyone assumes that Cop powers are availible readily or are the only useful imprints. They're not. There

is

a middle ground. Don't try to make it out otherwise.

Again, I surmise (reasonably, I think) that imprinting all will have a net effect of zero ('cept the scum keep their imprints, so at the end of the day it's probably less than null).

[DeathNote]

DN, wrong

again

. The middle round is banking on more townies getting imprints than scum proportionally and then using whatever powers they get to best advantage. I still don't know why everyone assumes that Cop powers are availible readily or are the only useful imprints. They're not. There

is

a middle ground. Don't try to make it out otherwise.

Hmm... no I am pretty sure I am right. The only role that benefits would be a cop role. Unless you have proof otherwise, perhaps an example of what role could possibly help beside cop?

[TheButtonmen]

Imprinting all is much much worse then a null, all you have 1 night where town's actions will throw up so much confusion that we will gain very little (Imagine if you get tracker as town that night...) and leave us facing a team full of power.

[TheButtonmen]

Hmm... no I am pretty sure I am right. The only role that benefits would be a cop role. Unless you have proof otherwise, perhaps an example of what role could possibly help beside cop?

If I am understanding correctly are you saying only the cop power role helps town? Cause I'm kinda thinking Docs,Trackers and roleblocker will come in really handy in this set up.

[DeathNote]

Hmm... no I am pretty sure I am right. The only role that benefits would be a cop role. Unless you have proof otherwise, perhaps an example of what role could possibly help beside cop?

If I am understanding correctly are you saying only the cop power role helps town? Cause I'm kinda thinking Docs,Trackers and roleblocker will come in really handy in this set up.

Nope, I don't think so. At least they wont help if we only pick one or two people a day. If the person we pick gets a tracker role, who the hell is he going to track? No one has powers. Docs have no one to protect and roleblockers have no one to block. N2 might be different if we give a scum player a power role, but other then that... no other roles help.

[Plum]

DN, wrong

again

. The middle round is banking on more townies getting imprints than scum proportionally and then using whatever powers they get to best advantage. I still don't know why everyone assumes that Cop powers are availible readily or are the only useful imprints. They're not. There

is

a middle ground. Don't try to make it out otherwise.

Hmm... no I am pretty sure I am right. The only role that benefits would be a cop role. Unless you have proof otherwise, perhaps an example of what role could possibly help beside cop?

If we give out only one imprint Day 1, usefulness is limited for whoever gets the imprint, Town or scum (except for setup-info gained, because these powers could be funky. Or some roles. Gun-inventor comes to mind. Inventor plain. Doublevote. Delayed kill. Neighborizer. Imprint-giver, which is implied by the game rules to be possible if not probable, could be huge. Not all of these may be possible, with the info we have, but what I'm saying is that I doubt this setup was designed for someone to finally randomly hit a Cop investigation and use it. In the case of imprinting everyone, obviously more roles (like Doc, which is nothing if we give one imprint Day 1) become more relevant and more useful - for both Town and scum. More useful for scum than Town because scum retain their imprints.

[TheButtonmen]

Nope, I don't think so. At least they wont help if we only pick one or two people a day. If the person we pick gets a tracker role, who the hell is he going to track? No one has powers. Docs have no one to protect and roleblockers have no one to block. N2 might be different if we give a scum player a power role, but other then that... no other roles help.

Your reasoning seems terribad, roleblockers can block the person who got imprinted the previous round (doing nothing if they were town but locking them down if they are mafia), Docs can protect confirmed townies (who in this set up are worth their weight in gold), Trackers can see if a previously imprinted person is still active (Thus if they are town or scum).