Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[Starbuck]

I am not the only person who has dismissed your questions as WIFOM and as distraction from the game. They weren't any type of questions that would help further this game. The fact that you are on this so hard seems like you really want to try and pin something on me.


I discredited Elvis because her theories and such could be discredited. She was wrong. How is it not scummy to try and clear yourself or someone else based on the same thing on Day 1??? It would be completely different if it was someone else saying that you and her were town based on that, but when it's coming from one or the other of you, it's more like "Ooo look what I did!"

I love how you insert your own ideas into what I said to purposely misrepresent me. The situation that I found scummy about you and Elvis was the situation concerning DeathNote, so how could I not mention him when that was what I found to be scummy about the two of you? As I said, I get a null tell on him, but I don't like how the two of you handled that situation, no matter what my read on him was.

[SerialClergyman]

Also - what questions still stand? Could you grab them for me and I'll answer them?

[Starbuck]

Those are some strong words there buddy.

Obsession......underhanded defense......

Quite easy for you to go after someone who has pointed out so many faults of yours and Elvis's already.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Ugh. Apologies for not posting today; our neighbours just moved and took the internet we were piggybacking off of with them. Didn't even realize it was theirs until their signal wasn't showing up on my computer anymore. XD

I'm currently borrowing my housemate's mobile broadband card, but she needs it for work so

I'm going to have limited internet access until Tuesday or so

, when the wireless guys are coming. No more free internet for me.

Anyway, I'm catching up. I'll post sometime tonight for sure.

[TheButtonmen]

Also - what questions still stand? Could you grab them for me and I'll answer them?

Odd that you knew I said I still had some questions for you outstanding but you didn't know where/what they are.

Also all my previous questions to you (Post 212) still stand.

As when I said they still stood I made sure to give you the post number, but anyways.

Here's some questions I'd rather answered, do you have any town tells on Elvis you want to share (seeing as your defending her and imprinting her)?, Why are so confident that Starbuck is scum and could you explain what the Starbuck&Deathnote connection is?

Right now your saying Starbuck is scummy because of her obsessive defense on Death Note but I read the post you quoted as more Elvis-centric hence I didn;t really find it obsessive. You say you think Elvis is town and I'm wondering why, you explained why she would be a good imprint target earlier and that you support her plan for imprinting but not never why you think she's town and why do you think Deathnote is scum and what's his connection to Starbuck(You already explained why you think 'Buck is scum and her connection to DN.)

[Limerickx]

I still disagree with lynching today, as scum don't have a NK unless we give one out. I just don't see a reason to take the chance when there wont be a kill (and if there IS a kill, it would be from one of the players we give and imprint to)

I think this may have been addressed but lynching will give us more information than not. If we limit the players given imprints that will give us a relatively small pool of possible players responsible. There is the possibility of scum getting a NK ability and waiting to use it on a night they are not imprinted, but unless everyone as been imprinted at one time or another they are still taking a huge risk.

I understand that, and I don't think that people who want to lynch today are wrong for saying so, but I guess that I just feel, with scum 100% not having a kill as of this very moment, tomorrow is just sort of an extension of today. If we imprint and don't lynch, today+tomorrow is basically one long day in my eyes, only with the added information that comes from knowing what sort of imprints are out there, and anything else we might learn from what is revealed during the night phase. Maybe there are mechanics we don't know about. For example, being FORCED to use the imprints you get would fit with the premise of the show.

So while I prefer to not lynch today, I understand the reasons for wanting to do so, and I would most likely be fully behind lynching tomorrow, when there is at least the possibility that a mafia was imprinted with a NK. Maybe I'd also change my mind for today if I felt very strongly about someone being super-scummy. I just don't at the moment.

[elvis_knits]

I don't think anybody ever answered this post by SC. Anybody who thinks me and SC are scum buddies, I would like you to respond to this post:

Essentially you are saying:

1) Elvis and I are scumbuddies.
2) I decided to obviously imprint my scumbuddy in my first posto f the game (the same one who happens to be the player I've played with most extensively on site.)
3) elvis and I seperately make comments that indicate we don't realise the scum has no night kill but in completely different ways. (This isn't an arranged plan yet, because if it was then elvis could have picked a buddy that didn't decide to imprint her first post to make comments that show the aren't aware of a NK.)
4) Iam clarifies this in thread.
5) Within 40 minutes of that post, elvis realises she could use this to our advantage and asks me why I thought we were in lylo.
6) I

ignore the question for plenty of posts and a day or two

, then elvis pushes the point and asks again, at which point I answer and she reveals her thoughts.

Now - all of that is possible, but I think obviously unlikely.

[SerialClergyman]

I'm not surprised you haven't addressed the content, but it's all there Starbuck. Obsession and underhanded are perfectly fair words for that post. Every section talked about DN. It had nothing to do with having to mention his name - you literally defended him in every section. Look at how much of your post mentions it, it's all there in my post. You CONSTANTLY defend him. If you thought he was town, I'd say it was at least consistent, but you originally said he wasn't completely scummy and now say you think he's null - that's not consistent with your defence. Nor is it consistent with thinking elvis and I are scum together.

And you refute your own point:

Quite easy for you to go after someone who has pointed out so many faults of yours and Elvis's already.

I am not the only person who has dismissed your questions as WIFOM and as distraction from the game.

I'm not an OMGUS-y player. I've been criticised before. But your post was scummy, so you're the one who gets my vote.

How is it not scummy to try and clear yourself or someone else based on the same thing on Day 1???

Because there are both scum and town motivations to clearing oneself. Why can't town try to clear themselves and others based on game information?

[elvis_knits]

Starbuck, please answer this post. It was directed at you.

So I should ignore that completely scummy thing he did because he took it back?

He still is voting to imprint everyone except me. How is that pro-town? He may say that he has abandoned his plan, but he really hasn't since he's still voting like he's trying to make it happen.

You are criticising me for not rescinding my imprint on SC and myself. Why would I do that? I'm almost sure he's town. I stand by my theory.

YET, you are not giving Deathnote any problem for failing to unimprint everyone, even after he agreed his plan is bad. At this point, he has admitted his plan is anti-town and yet, he is still voting everyone. And yet, you don't care?

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry buttonman, I must have missed the post number.

I'll try to answer your criticisms.

1) You defended Elvis, why can't Starbuck defend DN?

Because I am both up front about it and actively think elvis is town. Starbuck apparantly think's DN is null read yet defends him constantly. There's a disconnect between her view of him and her defence of him. And she never sets out ot defend him, it just seems to get worked into every facet of her post.

She also continues to say he's null despite her two biggest scumreads being scummy for attacking him. This is not a logically consistent world view.

2) That post is elvis-centric, not DN centric.

Well, I can only disagree. I've bolded all the parts where she mentions him in defence and I think it shows just how much of it concerns him.

But even if you didn't agree, I'd still say that the elvis parts are where she is attacking someone. I find lots of references to someone you think is scummy to be fine. What I don't like is lots of references defending someone you apparantly don't think is town.

3) Why is DN scum?

Because in this theory of the game, Starbuck is defending a buddy. I totally admit my case is absolutely dependent on Starbuck being scum. But mafia is about finding the informed minority, and I'm telling you that is part of it.

[SerialClergyman]

Oh, I totally answered the 212 questions already. Zzz.

Here's some questions I'd rather answered, do you have any town tells on Elvis you want to share (seeing as your defending her and imprinting her)?

Elvis trying to clear me is a good start, but elvis trying to clear anyone with info like that is definitely a positive. She's not the sort of scum that gambits D1, she tends to prefer to back her playing. I have the advantage of knowing that if she was scum she'd be working hard ot clear a townie, so that's one solid reason that you guys can't share. But if you work through the questions I asked above and earlier in the thread you'll realise that if she was scum there would have been better ways of doing this gambit (primarily not using the person who imprinted her first page). She said she was prepared to die before the end of the game if she needed to, I believe her.

It's like defending you for breaking the game, I think elvis is doing her version of that.

Why are so confident that Starbuck is scum and could you explain what the Starbuck&Deathnote connection is?

Insert huge wall of text answering this here in post 215

[Messiah]

That's also a loaded question because due to personal obligations, I wasn't able to post until today. That'd be like asking someone else if they think I'm town after I haven't posted for the past few days.

No, that wouldn't be the same thing at all. You've given plenty of content to get a decent read off of, whereas lewarcher hasn't.

She is discrediting elvis constantly. There's nothing inherently scummy about trying to clear yourself, there's certainly nothing inherently scummy about trying to clear someone else (doubly especially if that person is town). Yet Starbuck uses that as an argument against her constantly. It's purely done to discredit the finding. There's a natural distrust of people who speak about clearing themselves, as I learnt in my first game of mafia, but that should lead you to doubt the conclusion, not incriminate the person suggesting the theory. I say again, just because elvis suggested it doesn't mean it's not a good idea, nor does it mean she's scummy, nor does it mean it can be dismissed. Her actions have town motivations as well as scum motivations.

You say there's nothing inherently scummy about trying to confirm yourself, which is true, but you're ignoring the reasons why in this particular
case some people feel it was. You are correct as far as everything that ek says shouldn't be discredited automatically, though.

If she'd come out and said he was town I could have perhaps understood her obsession with him in the first section, but she didn't. She did the classic can't-say-my-buddy-is-town-can't-say-he's-scum thing and said he was kinda scummy, but there's nonetheless reason not to vote him. This is perhaps more gut, but this is EXACTLY what scum talking about their buddy look like.

So you're saying starbuck is scum because she mentions DN a lot but has a neutral read on him? I don't get the scumtell here at all.

Did you have any thoughts on my case against her?

Sure. It has a couple of legitimate points(as well as some I completely disagree with). Far too much of it seems to be that you think she is "obsessed with" and "defends" DN, but I don't see the huge scumtell there. The only way that her defense of DN could be scummy in my eyes is if DN was scum, but you say that you only think DN is scum in the first place because starbuck defended him. It just doesn't add up.(If you feel that it's unfair to say that most of your case is based around the way she talks about DN then we should discuss that, as it would change the way I view the case considerably.)

[TheButtonmen]

Oh, I totally answered the 212 questions already. Zzz.

A) No you didn't and B)

Vote: SerialClergyman

[TheButtonmen]

EBYOP:

Hmm intresting somehow I compeltly skipped Post 234 and only saw Post 235, downgrading that vote to a FoS

Unvote, FoS SerialClergyman

[TheButtonmen]

Far too much of it seems to be that you think she is "obsessed with" and "defends" DN, but I don't see the huge scumtell there. The only way that her defense of DN could be scummy in my eyes is if DN was scum, but you say that you only think DN is scum in the first place because starbuck defended him. It just doesn't add up.(If you feel that it's unfair to say that most of your case is based around the way she talks about DN then we should discuss that, as it would change the way I view the case considerably.)

Pretty much in agreement with Messiah here.

[SerialClergyman]

That was a good post, Messiah.

You say there's nothing inherently scummy about trying to confirm yourself, which is true, but you're ignoring the reasons why in this particular
case some people feel it was. You are correct as far as everything that ek says shouldn't be discredited automatically, though.

OK, so what are the reasons why in this particular case it's bad?

The Starbuck tell is that she is defending DN in an underhanded fashion. I guess I'm not being clear in why it's scummy. I'll try to be as clear as possible. Starbuck SHOULD think DN is town. She defends him constantly and her two biggest scummy suspects attacked him. But yet she doesn't, if anything she regards him on the scummy side of neutral. (She says he's not completely scummy)
So then go back and have a look at her posts. She's defending him, but she doesn't want to be SEEN to be defending him. And she's doing it A LOT. This to me is the definition of an informed minority tell.

Your characterisation of my case as I've made it is fair, but there are some other gut-related things. I always look for players who discredit town reads, for example. But essentially, yes, it's about the SB->DN stuff.

@Button - what about my play makes you think I am scum? In what ways did my quoted reasons for thinking elvis was town and my long case explaining SB's scumminess not answer your questions?

[SerialClergyman]

Look at it this way - why would town defend someone she thinks is at BEST null? Why would she do it so often? Why wouldn't she think he is town if her two biggest scum reads are attacking him?

Doesn't make sense.

[TheButtonmen]

@Button - what about my play makes you think I am scum? ?

As I said in my EBYOP: (Post 238) I somehow managed to completely miss post 234. Which made me read post 235 as super scummy.

[SerialClergyman]

I'm going to leave that, I don't quite agree but it's irrelevent.

What I will say is that you did FoS me, and haven't explained why the answers to your questions were inadequate. So presumably you think there's something about my play that is scummy.

[TheButtonmen]

Look at it this way - why would town defend someone she thinks is at BEST null? Why would she do it so often?

See your throwing around words like "Obsessive" and "Often" allot yet Starbuck defended Deathnote as far as I can tell in all of 2 posts, you on the other hand have defended Elvis in 6-7 times. So if your read on Starbuck is due to her defending Deathnote "Obsessively" then I'd love to know why your so confident in your Elvis read that you defending her three times more often then a "Obsessive" amount

[SerialClergyman]

Because I ACTIVELY THINK SHE IS TOWN.

I don't know how I can explain this further.

Serial

Is openly and consistently defending someone he thinks is town. Acknowledges both the defence of that person and the read of that person as town.

Starbuck

Is defending someone she is not prepared to say is town. Does not acknowledge the defence at all.

[SerialClergyman]

The above is easily verifyable. That's just what's happening in the thread.

The only way I can see to interpret that data is to say that SB is subtly defending a scumbuddy - that would explain why she inserts the defences throughout her post rather than being up front about it. It would also explain why she isn't prepared to actively create a link between them by saying outright that he is town, instead prefering to sit on the fence with him.

[TheButtonmen]

I just feel, with scum 100% not having a kill as of this very moment, tomorrow is just sort of an extension of today. If we imprint and don't lynch, today+tomorrow is basically one long day in my eyes, only with the added information that comes from knowing what sort of imprints are out there, and anything else we might learn from what is revealed during the night phase.

I get what your saying but its a two edged sword, if we NL and imprint we know more about the imprinting process / effects and can make better decisions tomorrow based on what we learn about imprinting and what the imprinted person learns. But if we lynch today the imprinted person can A) use their powers better (due to having voting information) and and let's us vote / hand out power(s) better tomorrow by having allot more to go on due to flip and voting.

[Vala Mal Doran]

@Mod: Can we get a new votal/imprint tally? Could you also start reposting the player and corresponding dollname list with that, so it's easier to tell who's voting for whom without having to hop back and forth between the current page and the first page? Thanks.

I have read everything up till now and am starting my more in-depth re-reading and posting soonishly.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Okay. First of all, apologies for any disjointedness this post may contain; I'm writing it in Wordpad as I re-read. It's also almost certain to be wordy, as I am a very longwinded person (sometimes to my own detriment in these games, but I digress).

Also, before I get started, how does everyone feel about posting scumlists and particularly townlists in this game? I'm aware that many people on this site frown on making town lists because they think it just tells mafia who to kill, but in the case of this game I think making townlists as well as scumlists is a great way of figuring out who we should imprint and outweighs the danger of scum eventually picking someone off those lists to kill.

I think you're town, but you're playing sort of paranoid, and not necessarily voting for who you think is scum, or not thinking through totally. Like your vote on Buttonmen, which was essentially because you found him annoying and you disliked his plan. While I happen to agree with you, those things don't indicate his allignment, and if you think about it, he probably was trying to break the game for the town. Which suggests he is town. So your vote there was not good.

FWIW, from the very beginning I never intended to keep the vote on him for long. It was certainly never a "omg you're so totally scummy" vote, and I even agree that him trying to break the game in favour of town would probably be a towntell (unless he's scum who realized that the mod would never let anyone break the game so blatantly but that he could earn major townpoints by looking like he wanted to break the game for town. I hope that's just me being paranoid again, though). I also outright said in the post where I voted him that I wanted to get some actual discussion going, because talking about the mechanics was getting boring, and that I wasn't afraid to place some dubious votes to accomplish starting that discussion. In the end I think it was actually your voting to imprint yourself and SC that really jumpstarted major discussion, lawl.

Thank you for the links to some of your prior games; I can't promise I will get around to them, though. It might not matter, either, because pretty much every post you made before and since your "let's imprint me and SC" post I have had a town or neutral read on and thus I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

On that note:

unvote: elvis

Everyone needs to say how they feel about lynching and imprinting so we can decide what to do. People also need to say who they think is scummy.

I am for lynching if we come to a consensus that someone is scummy enough to warrant it on day 1. Otherwise, Limerick's idea of not lynching day 1 seems like a decent idea. I am also for imprinting people we have obvtown reads on. I'll cast some imprint votes and put a town/scum list at the bottom of my post later.

I've played with DeathNote before and it very much seems like he was just trying to get ideas out there. I'm not getting a completely scummy feeling from him.

I want to get it out there that I'm also giving DN the benefit of the doubt for now due to meta reasons; I have read bits and pieces of many games on this website, including a couple that DN was in, and it seems that he always acts like this, and almost always gets lynched for it early on in the game. That said, I certainly don't want to give him an imprint any time soon. People with anti-town metas are far too much of a wildcard to risk something like that.

I don't think he[Buttonmen, when he was trying to break the game] is being against the spirit of the game.

Trying to break the game isn't against the spirit of Mafia? News to me.

[VMD voting Button]'s like the same thing as elvis voting DeathNote because she didn't like his idea.

Not if you consider a.) my rant on the subject earlier in this post, b.) the fact that, if I recall correctly, Elvis' vote is still on DN. Granted, DN's plan was vehemently anti-town; Buttonmen's was arguably pro-town but vehemently anti- the game in general, so Elvis' vote is more warranted than mine ever was or was intended to be.

She unvotes in Post 88 citing that she felt that he was going to cheat in some way.

Wrong; I was saying that imo, breaking the game is equivalent to cheating. The point of mafia is to win by logic and superior wit, not to ##NL over and over til auto-win.

<--- is calling right now Starbuck scum with Deathnote. Write that down, keep it safe, check it on reveal.

...Really? When she's only made one post (not counting her "I'll post later" post)? I had a firmly neutral read on 183.

Pages 1-5: Nothing!

Again, "...Really?"

on Buttonman: he is a smart player,

as far as I see

. I get town

vibes

from him. Still, I agree that looking for Nash equilibria or bugs in the setup is pointless, since there is a whole set of rules we do not now.

Pages 6-8: interesting stuff happens. I find Starbuck's comments

interesting

[couldn't find a more descriptive adjective than "interesting"? Really?]

, she

seems

to be truly scum-hunting.

And I find SC's posts

a little

excessive in front of the not so heavy accusations he has to face.

lewarcher lurk lurk lurks, then when he finally posts he posts very briefly and constantly words everything like he doesn't want to commit to having any strong opinions he can't backtrack on later. Scummy? I think yes.

Vote: SerialClergyman

Lurking and then giving so little insight into his vote? Bad bad bad. The only thing he has to say about SC is underlined above.

Imprint: Starbuck

For a third time, "...Really?" After one content post?

Vote: Elvis_Knits

An odd vote. I would have expected, if a vote was going to be placed, for it to be placed in 183, rather than later on after Elvis responded. Is there a reason you didn't vote in 183 but later decided you would vote, Starbuck?

I'm scum now? That's a compelling omgus, SC.

This. SC's 219 elaboration doesn't make it look any better either, imo.

He also paid me the favor of voting to imprint me, so I figured I'd return it.

doublefacepalm.jpg

For example, being FORCED to use the imprints you get would fit with the premise of the show.

It would also completely break the game in town's favour if scum got primarily killing roles (which I'm guessing would be the case based on what little the mod has said on the subject). Good idea, but not likely.

I don't think anybody ever answered this post by SC.

I did. I said something along the lines of I thought it was more likely that you were scum acting alone, taking advantage of town!SC's friendliness towards you. Obviously I've unvoted you already and that's not really relevant anymore, but I thought I'd point out that I've already answered it anyway.

So you're saying starbuck is scum because she mentions DN a lot but has a neutral read on him? I don't get the scumtell here at all.

This.

It has a couple of legitimate points(as well as some I completely disagree with). Far too much of it seems to be that you think she is "obsessed with" and "defends" DN, but I don't see the huge scumtell there. The only way that her defense of DN could be scummy in my eyes is if DN was scum, but you say that you only think DN is scum in the first place because starbuck defended him. It just doesn't add up.

And also this.

She's defending him, but she doesn't want to be SEEN to be defending him.

Not what I saw at all. I took it at face value and read it as she had a meta-based tell on him. She uses the words "overaggressive" and "overreacted" in relation to your and elvis' reactions to DN. That doesn't seem like she's defending him to me. I read 183 as, "Yeah, this guy isn't the towniest guy ever, but the way these guys reacted to him seemed scummy and would seem scummy to me regardless of DN's alignment. BTW, DN always acts like this, lol."

More general thoughts on the Starbuck vs SC/Elvis thing: The overall fight looks to me like a town vs town squabble more than it does a scum vs town or scum vs scum distancing squabble. If there were scum involved I'm fairly certain I'd be smelling a rat from someone involved right now, and instead all I smell is a lot of righteous indignation all around. Try not to tunnel too much, guys, it could be bad news for all of us. >_<

Town/Scum list:

Obvtown (town reads on every single post):
Limerick
VMD
Pug
Messiah

Probably town (town reads on most posts but some neutral or scum reads):
SC
Elvis
Starbuck
Buttonmen

Just town of neutral (town when posting, but post moar pls):
Plum

Neutral (lol anti-town metas):
DN

Probably scum (where the fuck are you?):
Jason

Obvscum (Do I really need to explain my case again?):
lewarcher

vote: lewarcher
imprint: VMD (I guess, since other people are doing it too >_<), limerick, pug, messiah)