Mini 885 - Boom, Game Gutshot/Abandoned by Mod!

[xvart]

/confirm

xvart.

[xvart]

Hello everyone! I'm looking forward to playing with you all. Happy hunting!

Anyways, on to more pressing matters:

@TheButtonmen: Was going to vote for him using the 'only scum know who other scum are' but decided to go to random.org for guidance, and it returned 9, 5cvm's position in the list in the first post.

Oh really? Barely out of the gate and we have such an unconfirmable coincidence... You were going to vote for him, then you decided to go random, and random.org happened to give you the exact same number? I don't buy it for a second.

vote: A_Squirrel

xvart.

[xvart]

Hay guyz we're all freinds right? Except xvart.

Fun fact: random.org uses cosmic background radiation.

unvote, vote: xvart

Gogo bandwagon time.

And why the need for a bandwagon? Care to explain?

xvart.

[xvart]

Oh really? Barely out of the gate and we have such an unconfirmable coincidence... You were going to vote for him, then you decided to go random, and random.org happened to give you the exact same number? I don't buy it for a second.

Xvart and TheButtonmen are the scum.

Question

Question

Question

question

wondering

Moar xvart votes.

Care to explain the repeated "Question" quotes? It makes no sense to me, especially with your call for a bandwagon on me. Especially since you have dodged my question now for a couple of posts.

And for everyone, can we please do our best to make sure quotes are attributed to people (and hopefully the correct people )?

xvart.

[xvart]

Oh dang, I'm confused. Was this night-time start? WHY IS THE MOD DEAD???? I DON'T GET THIS.

It is just for the story. The mod was never a player in the game, therefore it doesn't matter. It just indicates that something is wrong in the town, and we better hunt for the killer.

The main argument against him seems to be bare assertion by 5cvm.

A very convincing assertion, I might add.

Dodge again. Why the call for the bandwagon? Care to elaborate the "convincing argument?"

xvart.

[xvart]

@xvart: I'm still curious--you accepting the coincidence or was i lying?

I do not accept that it was a coincidence; but, I don't necessarily think it was scummy; I think it's null at this point. It shall be filed away. With that said:

Unvote: A_Squirrel

Every single post by 5cvm has been scummy; not only that, but so brazenly scummy it makes me sick. Could there be a VI in a 12 person game?

xvart.

[xvart]

1. A nulltell now will be a nulltell later. Why are you filing it away, and saying that it's "null at this point" is setting yourself up to add it to a potential case later. Sounds like scum trying to start an early D1 bandwagon, realizing that their evidence is weak, and backing off until they can get a better case built.

The point I was making about filing it away was simply because if a pattern of behavior develops surrounding the same sort of behavior I was mentioning, it ceases to be a null tell. One simple comment that can appear scummy can be made by anyone, but if it happens over and over, then further scrutiny is needed.

2. 5cvm is "so brazenly scummy" that it makes you sick . . . and you're not voting him? Why not?

Because I asked if there could possibly be a VI in a 12 person game? Did you miss my question asking for more information? I haven't been a member of this site long so I don't know the standard setup that includes VIs, but I'm not going to jump on someone, especially when it furthers the current (and strong) bandwagon, when he could be the VI.

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP:

By VI I mean Village Idiot or the jester. The other forum that I've played calls that role the Village Idiot.

xvart.

[xvart]

Mind giving an example about how a pattern of behavior about the "lie" would develop?

I was more referring to the fabrication of a story to support a given action.

Must have missed your question about the VI. I haven't seen a jester in a mini normal game, although I'm no where near experienced. I don't think it's common practice to include one.

That's what I thought, but I didn't know for certainty.

xvart, I just noticed we're both from Missouri. Hi!

Awesome! Nice to meet another person from the heartland.

Anyways, jester hunting is in and of itself scummy, so my vote stands.

Nobody is "jester hunting." I asked a question about game setup.

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP:

I meant to add that maybe I should have said "I've got my eye on you" instead of "filing it away." Maybe if I had used a piece of terminology from the MS wiki it would have been more kosher.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm not particularly liking xvart's replies

Why? What concerns you about them?

xvart.

[xvart]

What do you find weird about our start?

Sorry about missing this question earlier. I just found the joking scum claims and other joking aroudn wierd, idk why.

I would normally write the joking scum claims off for day one RVS shenanigans if the joking had stopped or ceased. But since every single by 5cvm is obviously asking for a lynch, I stopped to ask about potential game setup before putting up a third vote (and increasing the bandwagon) on 5cvm.

1. Jester =/= scum. When we look for a jester, we aren't looking for scum, which hurts town.

I understand that. I don't think I can be any more clear: I wasn't looking for a jester; I was asking a simple question about game setup before I considered putting another vote on him.

2. Setups up a possible scumbuddy defense. Example: Mafia A messes up and does something really scummy. Mafia B says "He's too scummy to be scum, this is most likely a jester, we shouldn't lynch him."

You are the one making that case, not me. I never once defended him and said he was the jester. I was asking about the game setup. In fact, I wasn't the only one who made note of the odd posting behavior:

As much as I almost want to ignore 5cvm's claim, I just hate WIFOM like that. No one is going to like it in the end. It certainly isn't going to help someone who was town or mafia really.

The first thing that came to mind when I read it was if he could possibly be a Jester.

(bolded emphasis mine)

And I may note, that that person, in the same post, said he didn't like my responses:

I'm not particularly liking xvart's replies

3. While I've never seen this type of thing on MS (my original site is epicmafia.com, a chat based website), mafia could be looking for a joint win. On EM, mafia can joint with fool (that sites name for jester) given the right situation (2 mafia, 2 town, 1 fool alive. Mafia and fool vote together to lynch fool, fool gets lynched, and then mafia have the numbers to win as well.)

Do you really think that the mafia and the (mostly likely) non-existent jester have already planned out this grand scheme you suggest?

I think some of 5cvm's posts are incomprehensible. His claims at this point on the game? Could be just trying to see what the accused reactions are or deliberately causing confusion.

Exactly my feeling. If he isn't mafia he is certainly anti-town.

ConfidAnon -

who do you think is more anti-town at this point? Me or 5cvm?

I want to make it clear that I am more than happy to put my vote on 5cvm. This early in the game it is hard to differentiate between anti-town behavior and scum behavior, so that vote is as good as any for now. The reason I'm not going to vote him now is because I'm not ready to continue this bandwagon on page three. I think there is plenty of things to discuss, like ConfidAnon trying to build a case around me based on:

1. my comments towards A-Squirrel (which, granted, are legitimate, and I will be happy to continue that discussion if warranted);
   
2. my alleged "jester hunting."

I just want to make it clear to you, ConfidAnon, that you are the one that continues to talk about the jester, not me. I'm just answering to your allegations that are unfounded.

xvart.

[xvart]

Though one thing of note seems that you are being fairly defensive against the claims of you Jester hunting. Whether or not you want to - or even if you were in the first place, it seemed to have struck a soft spot on you when people are trying to use it as a scumtell for you, though tbh, so many people will make a scumtell out of anything on D1 since there's nothing else to go off of yet.

Sure, and I can see this. I probably was a little too defensive just because I felt (and still feel) like a case is being built out of nothing at all; especially now that others have engaged in the conversation (to a greater degree than I) and yet I'm still the scummy one. It's contradictory. And the fact that a couple of pages has now been spent discussing the jester doesn't matter at all to me. We don't have a deadline right now, so I feel pretty comfortable with the direction of the discussion since we are still gaining information from other players (and myself for that matter).

Regardless, the jester conversation was going to come out whether it was me or not, since it was also noticed by someone else.

Though one thing of note seems that you are being fairly defensive against the claims of you Jester hunting. Whether or not you want to - or even if you were in the first place, it seemed to have struck a soft spot on you when people are trying to use it as a scumtell for you, though tbh, so many people will make a scumtell out of anything on D1 since there's nothing else to go off of yet.

Sure, and I can see this. I probably was a little too defensive just because I felt (and still feel) like a case is being built out of nothing at all; especially now that others have engaged in the conversation (to a greater degree than I) and yet I'm still the scummy one. It's contradictory. And the fact that a couple of pages has now been spent discussing the jester doesn't matter at all to me. We don't have a deadline right now, so I feel pretty comfortable with the direction of the discussion since we are still gaining information from other players (and myself for that matter).

Regardless, the jester conversation was going to come out whether it was me or not.

ConfidAnon - Well yea, they are more than likely to get lynched as all they have to do is purposefully act scummy and make the town want to lynch him, but you should definitely know that lynching isn't the only way to kill someone lol. There's tones of other ways someone can die, from both day and night killers (not to mention the common mafia night kill).

Jesters are anti-town. Straight up, as they are another faction that can take the win away from the Town and mess up their judgment. By lynching a Jester you're

not

lynching scum which is the whole point of the game. However, the Jester is also anti-mafia as well. Same as town, it's another faction that can take a true win away, not to mention with the bullcrap a Jester can cause, with how 5cvm is claiming these scumbuddies, what if one of those 2 were actually scum? I'm sure the scum wouldn't like someone just making brash claims that could be putting unnecessary attention on the scum members.

This is a good point. I hadn't even thought of getting in the way of the mafia's win condition.

I understand that. I don't think I can be any more clear: I wasn't looking for a jester; I was asking a simple question about game setup before I considered putting another vote on him.

This point is devolving into "I'm right!" "No, I'm right!"

My stance is that by asking about the possibility of a jester, you were looking for a jester, but I'm done arguing it.

That's fine; although you continued to argue it in that same post? Do you just have to have the last word or the final punch to continue to paint me in this scummy light?

If there is a jester, they are more than likely getting lynched, just saying.

Now you are hypothesizing about a jester, which you've already said is scummy; not only that, but you are resigned to second place being a satisfactory win.

Do you really think that the mafia and the (mostly likely) non-existent jester have already planned out this grand scheme you suggest?

No, but if a jester existed, they would seek to do so.

I thought even simply hypothesizing about a jester was scummy?

ConfidAnon - who do you think is more anti-town at this point? Me or 5cvm?

5cvm is more anti-town, while you are scummier. There's a difference there . . . your question sounds like you were using it to make yourself look better.

Good point regarding scummy vs. anti-town behavior. Regardless, I wasn't trying to make myself look better. I was trying to see your priorities, or rather how important (or lack of importance) 5cvm's behavior was in your book.

I agree, but I'm not hunting for a jester . . . I'm calling you scummy for hunting for the jester. I won't argue that point any more, but it's not going away. And my allegations are founded, whether you acknowlege it or not.

Your definition of "hunting for a jester" is pretty perplexing to me. Why are you dead set on building this case against me for

asking about game setup

"hunting for a jester" when others are even more engaged in the jester discussion than I have ever been:

Before anyone reads this post, since some people seem to believe for some reason that it's NOT good to look out for a Jester, this mindset is horrible imo. This is a forum based game with a ton of days set aside for each in-game day, potentially weeks. There is plenty of time to discover Jesters, Mafia, Independants, fell Town members, and all of that at the same time. We should be working to discover the game as a whole, by forgetting about the possibility of the Jester we are completely turning our back on a possible big part of the game. Imo as a mafia player you should play for a complete win. Sure as both town and mafia you can share a win with the Jester, but what's the point. We should work to achieve the best win possible.

Why it's good to hunt for Jesters (Referring to some people's claims of it being scummy like ConfidAnon):
-Jesters are part of the game, we shouldn't refuse to turn our backs on any part of the game. Knowledge is power.
-A Jester is independent that can win the game. If we discover who they are, we can stop them from winning.
-If we can discover who the Jester is, that's someone we can take off of our potential lynch pool. Making the lynch pool smaller and smaller makes it easier to target scum. For instance, we're at 12 members right now. With today's lynch at the moment we have a 1/12 chance (or 8.3%) in lynching a scum member with a lynch pool of 12. If we work enough to deduce who we think can be a Jester, then we're taking a person out of our lynch pool (since we're labeling someone as a person we don't want to lynch), we would have a 1/11 chance (or 9%) in lynching scum. Every extra little bit helps.
-Jesters do not help the town. They get in the way of the game essentially and by them making the town want to lynch them, it's only going to stop the town from lynching scum. Yes, our main focus in the game is too take out the scum, though a Jester trying to get us to lynch him is going to lead us off track from our main goal. Finding out who the Jester is can help our judgment and keep our eyes on the main goal.

Unvote: 5cvm

I am convinced that 5cvm can only be a Jester. It's the only thing that makes any sort of sense.

So let me ask you this, ConfidAnon: Who is scummier based on these jester hunts? Me, Aranfan, or ChiboSempai? Who on that list has been more pro-jester hypothesizing or jester hunting?

BTW, here's an interesting thing everyone should read:

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Jester

This is the key line:

If a Jester is lynched before any other faction has won, the game will usually continue to determine second place.

If there is a jester, they are more than likely getting lynched, just saying.

Also, how should the town feel about your resignation to second place being satisfactory? I guess we disagree on this since I play for the town first place win.

One thing that stood out to me is when 5cvm first said that TheButtonMen and xvart were scum, then Button goes and votes xvart. Just going ahead and agreeing with 5cvm almost makes me think that Button is trying to clear himself in everyone elses eyes by voting someone who has been called out as scum. This is the only way I could see bussing be valid this early in the game if by some stroke of luck 5cvm actually did just conveniently out 2 scum members. That's a chance I'm not willing to take this early though.

Interesting observation. I know it is not possible for both TheButtonMen and myself to be scum; so I could only add that his vote on me was the attempt to start a bandwagon on me instead of him.

xvart.

[xvart]

A couple of things, first of all the vote for

Xvart

was done because at the time he seemed the scummiest (note, the scummiest not I thought he was scum) and wanted to see his reaction.

As for his reaction, there was a large increase in his post count / length since the votes were placed on him, yet oddly enough in those posts he never mentioned the votes directly.

Are you suggesting that it is a negative that I did not mention the votes? I'm more concerned with the arguments that influenced the voting instead of the votes themselves. I'm more concerned with good and accurate content at this point than someone voting for me.

xvart.

[xvart]

Sigh even if there was a a Jester; playing as a Jester is basically playing like scum (given that a jester wants to be lynched, thus they emulate scum). So if there was a jester there should be no way to tell their posts apart from scums.

What are you talking about? There is a huge difference: that being the jester wants to get lynched and the scum don't want to be noticed; therefore there is a HUGE difference between their posting styles. Which is exactly why the posting style is so significant.

I do agree that eliminating someone from lynching because they are too scum to be scum is not a good idea; but 5cvm's behavior is so outlandish that he isn't going anywhere and he can't erase his behavior. Are you concerned that if we don't lynch 5cvm today that everyone might forget about his antics tomorrow?

xvart.

[xvart]

@

xvart

, no there isn't a huge difference between scums and a Jesters posting style, the jester wants to apper as scum, thus emulates scum posting style. Also concerned? No actually I would throw a party if everyone magically forgot about 5cvm's antics today.

So, you must think 5cvm is either:

1. scum;
   
2. an idiot;
   
3. something else?

Which is it?

xvart.

[xvart]

@ xvart

1. Not sure, 2. Yes, 3. No*

*If by something else you mean jester.

Nope, while certainly that is an option. I was just leaving the door open if you had some other theory about his behavior.

xvart.

[xvart]

Because saying I'm voting for you to see how you react to it, doesn't get very good results.

So... Why haven't you provided any analysis since I gave you a "reaction"? Yes, you said my post count increased and length increased (oh, and that I didn't specifically mention

the

votes themselves); but you haven't said anything about whether you find that scummy, townie, or neither. Typically when someone is posting to get a reaction wouldn't they then comment on the reaction?

xvart.

[xvart]

@xvart

I didn't talk about your reaction?

As for his reaction, there was a large increase in his post count / length since the votes were placed on him, yet oddly enough in those posts he never mentioned the votes directly.

Oh, okay. So the reaction you were trying to elicit from me was specific to most posting frequency and posting length? And whether or not I would specifically mention the votes themselves? You didn't care about whether I would go off the deep end and OMGUS you? Did you expect me to shy away and back peddle (I would think you would have a great grasp of back peddling since you seem to be so well versed in it)?

Do you really think my increased posting and posting length was based on your vote?

And do I think they are scummy / towny / neither?

Are you suggesting that it is a negative that I did not mention the votes?

@ xvart Nope, I used the term odd on purpose

So you only think it was odd that I didn't mention the votes? Nothing about my post length or my post frequency? No read on the

content

of my posts?

----

Let me review our interactions:

You voted for me with what appears to be a joke about bussing:

Ammendment to the previous post.

Xvart and TheButtonmen are the scum.

Then clearly this means I must join the voting game and bus him!

Vote Xvart

You then asked about what someone else thought of me:

B) Question @

Seregil

any thoughts on

Xvart

so far?

Question: why did you ask Seregil of all people? He was pretty inactive at the time.

A couple of things, first of all the vote for

Xvart

was done because at the time he seemed the scummiest (note, the scummiest not I thought he was scum) and wanted to see his reaction.

Then when questioned about your vote, you said it was because I was the scummiest

AND

because you wanted to gauge a reaction. You went out of your way to make sure it was clear that it was not because you thought I was scum, but because I was the scummiest. Just in case you did get the bandwagon rolling on me and caused a mislynch?

In the very next post you then said:

@ A_

Squirrel

, Xvart vote for you is what caught my interest, it seemed like a nonrandom vote and I didn't like the reasoning.

My vote

was

a non random vote. I stated my reason. Thanks for posting the obvious.

So you voted for me because:

1. I was the scummiest player;
   
2. My vote was non random and you didn't like the reason; and,
   
3. You wanted to get a reaction (about my post length and post count, and whether or not I mentioned the actual votes).

Here is some commentary on your behavior as I see it:

1. You voted for me because it was opportunistic since I already had one nonsense vote (5cvm);
   
2. You attempted to get some more support and you never followed up on it (because he didn't think I was scummy, perhaps?); and,
   
3. You claimed your vote was for an obviously bogus reason (reaction) that you never commented on.

Did I miss anything?

Vote: TheButtonmen

And I will be judging your responses on content, not posting frequency and length.

xvart.

[xvart]

If I knew how you were going to react, why would I fish for a reaction? Hell if I knew how you would react why would I then say how you reacted was odd?

My point is the reaction you were looking for was post length, post count, and the specific mention of the votes against me. Your "commentary" on my reaction, which you fished for, was that my lack of mentioning the votes against me was odd? You have nothing to say about my post count and my post length and whether or not those are indicative of scum or town?

I guess my other question that I didn't make clear was to ask you if were you at all curious about the content of my "reaction" or the tone or the presentation when you were fishing for it?

So make up your mind how you want to attack me

I guess I didn't realize that I'm only limited in my questioning to one topic area?

Question: why did you ask Seregil of all people? He was pretty inactive at the time.

You answered you own question there.

Your right, I did. Then let me ask this, if you were trying to get him involved, why did you only ask him about me?

And when did I attempt to get more support to get you wagoned, at the time I voted for you there was 5cvm's vote on you and he was changing votes at a stupid rate thats hardly wagoning. And asking another player what they though of you to try to get them to participate more again is not waggoing I didn't ask them to vote for you or present them with a case for you being scum.

You're absolutely right about the 5cvm wagon. My apologies. I just found it curious that you only asked Seregil about me, and then didn't respond to his comments; especially since they were contrary to your own suspicions. Or did you only want to get him involved and didn't really care what he said?

And your third observation does not make sense to me, you think looking for reactions obviously bogus? And saying that I never commented on it is a straight up lie.

No, I think fishing for reactions is most certainly not bogus. What I think is bogus is basing scum/town alignment during a reaction fishing session on post length and post count, especially early in the game. Granted, that may have some manner of credibility, but only coupled with tone, content, and presentation.

How would you have felt if I continued to post at the same level I had been? Would you have been better able to hypothesize on my alignment or lack of alignment? What would that alignment have been? I can't possibly imagine a successful reaction fishing session based on post length and post count alone.

xvart.

[xvart]

My point is the reaction you were looking for was post length, post count, and the specific mention of the votes against me.

Quote?

No problem. I asked you:

So... Why haven't you provided any analysis since I gave you a "reaction"?

Your response:

@xvart

I didn't talk about your reaction?

As for his reaction, there was a large increase in his post count / length since the votes were placed on him, yet oddly enough in those posts he never mentioned the votes directly.

If you were looking for something else you never posted it. When asked about your observations of my reaction, you directed me to your observations of my post count, my post length, and the lack of me mentioning the specific votes.

xvart.

[xvart]

So when you asked me about my thoughts on your reaction I directed you to where i had already posted my thoughts. If I didn't mention something there it's because I didn't notice anything else worth mentioning.

But when I asked specifically about the content, you directed me back to the part about post length et al, which is not what I asked. Why didn't you just say "I didn't notice anything worth mentioning" then?

Now if you have a specific thing your curious about then ask it, otherwise I'm done responding to you repeating yourself in long wall of text after wall of text.

I've only had to repeat myself because you kept missing the part about content, which you now have cleared up (finally); that being you noticed nothing worth commenting.

As for specific questions, you never answered me when I asked what you were fishing for (or what you were hoping to get) when you were eliciting a reaction from me?

As for when I said not liking xvart's replies....
ummm.... (reading back)

"Nobody is "jester hunting." I asked a question about game setup."

While it wasn't bad (which is why I used the adjective particularly and not flat out, and why I didn't vote him), instead of saying something simple like I had just asked about the game set up, he had to add that no one is jester hunting which seemed a little pre cautious and definitely wanting no suspicion on him. I mean sure no one wants suspicion, but just the way he said it seemed kind of off.

I typed that the way I did for sensationalism's sake, hoping the reader would realize how ludicrous the entire conversation was (in my eyes); but I can see what you are saying.

xvart.

[xvart]

I don't see what the big deal about Seregil's comment, and I don't see it as scummy since in his response he referenced two people with contradictory statements to his own.

I'm fine with my vote on TheButtonmen. Does anyone else have something to say about him or to dissuade me from voting him?

xvart.

[xvart]

Welcome, Humble Poirot. Looking forward to what you have to say about the events so far.

First part: If Seregil is scum (good possibility), xvart is probably scum as well.

I'll stand by what I said about Seregil. He made the comment (when prompted) about two people's similar arguments (which differed his own opinion), and found one of those two to be at least moderately scummy. I understand that dichotomies can be seen as scummy, but I personally don't see anything near an ultimatum here like ConfidAnon suggested. If it had been a more developed argument I would feel the same way you do. And, if an ultimatum type action comes up later involving the two Seregil mentions I will gladly reconsider and reassess.

Second part: This is a jump, but I'm wondering why you feel the need to reassure us that your comfortable with your vote. Button hadn't posted in the time between your two posts, so he hadn't given you anythign to comment on. This bothers me. Jumpy scum, perhaps?

I'm glad you recognize that it is a jump, because it is. I "reassured" the group that I was comfortable about my vote; but what you neglected to mention (or quote) was that I followed up with a question to the rest of you about your thoughts on TheButtonmen and basically asking if anyone had observed anything else. It was obviously a conversation starter (or continue-er) since conversation had dulled, and despite what several people had said about there being nothing to comment on, I felt there was plenty to comment on. So I attempted to open the door to stimulate some more conversations about one of the leading bandwagons.

xvart.

[xvart]

Humble Poirot - interesting way to replace in. Looking forward to hearing how you think it turns out afterwards.

Uses a lot of words like "fabrication"

Yes, I do tend to be a little verbose. I like to write posts that are a little more extravagent to add some personal flavor.

and seems to look at everyone in a scum until proven otherwise way.

Good observation. This is also true.

xvart

He changes his mind about the "coincidence".

I didn't change my mind; I essentially said the exact same thing you did in your A_Squirrel analysis, minus the scumhunting; but I dropped my vote to move on to others. In fact, I got some serious heat for suggesting that I would remember this encounter after saying I would consider it null for the time being.

sidenote: Village idiot and jester are 2 different things in Mafiascum.

questions

What's so bad about bandwaggons in RVS?
Was squirrel's post a coincidence, a lie or what? Why is it not scummy?

re: village idiot

- I didn't know that. I will go look up the difference.

re: bandwagons

- nothing is wrong with bandwagons in RVS. And nothing is wrong with question bandwagons, either; at least in my eyes.

re: squirrel

- As I said, I don't believe it was a conincidence, but I don't necessarily find it scummy at this time. I don't think it was scummy because it feels more like just something posted off the cuff without putting much thought into it. I also would find it hard to believe that a scum would do something so silly unless it was a terrible attempt to bus him so early. I typically do not even consider RVS votes when looking at people's votes against others. When we lynch TheButtonmen and he flips scum, the first place I'm looking is A_Squirrel since he not only random votes but also justifies it as actually being random based on a website. If the scum team actually comes out A_Squirrel, TheButtonmen, and 5cvm I am going to crap myself.

Also, I will try and tone down on the long posts. When I play I prefer to read posts with lots of quotes so I don't have to look back and the information is easy to locate. I find it easier to reference and follow cases presented.

xvart.

[xvart]

Oh, is the standard how nice our posts are, and not whether or not they address anything in the game at all? In that case I'm going to stop posting content and just post a picture of a kitten once a day. Town, please ignore my entire lack of participation and let me live for the entire game unmolested, because hey, there's NO WAY scum would try to get away with that sort of thing, right?

This post was gold. I'll be posting in a couple hours.

xvart.

[xvart]

Ok. I read xvart again because I was really sleepy last night and tended to fail near the end.

-He says he doesn't buy A_squirrel's vote being decided by random.org.

I do not accept that it was a coincidence; but, I don't necessarily think it was scummy; I think it's null at this point. It shall be filed away. With that said:

This is something that I do not follow. Why didn't he think it was scummy?

Like I said (quote below), anyone can make a scummy statement, but when the behavior repeats, it needs further scrutiny. I found the comment such an interesting coincidence, and unverifiable one to boot, that I felt it was worth the vote at that stage in the game. It was scummy enough to warrant my first vote on the first page.

The point I was making about filing it away was simply because if a pattern of behavior develops surrounding the same sort of behavior I was mentioning, it ceases to be a null tell. One simple comment that can appear scummy can be made by anyone, but if it happens over and over, then further scrutiny is needed.

The point I was making about filing it away was simply because if a pattern of behavior develops surrounding the same sort of behavior I was mentioning, it ceases to be a null tell. One simple comment that can appear scummy can be made by anyone, but if it happens over and over, then further scrutiny is needed.

Help me understand. If he continues to do this kind of things he will be more likely scum or it will be more likely an attribute of his playstyle and therefore a nulltell?

Yes. Say A_Squirrel hammers some townsperson out of the blue and then says at the opening of the next day, "sorry everyone, I was drunk and did not realize so-and-so was at L-1. I wouldn't have placed my vote otherwise" I would consider that a potential fabrication of events to justify an action. That is what I was referring to about pattern of behavior. In that example, I would consider it a playstyle of covering his ass and scummy.

I feel xvart is town. A particular one. But town.

I'll take that as a compliment.

I didn't mean you were verbose or snob. I meant that you used words that had a strong accusation implied in them.

I didn't take it that way. I feel that giving a slight edge to posts gets a better/stronger reaction as opposed to asking one syllable worded questions.

You wouldn't say a town player fabricates things, would you?

Generally speaking, no; or at least I hope not. But then again, it is not outside the realm of possibility.

also. You're the first to mention a 3 man scumteam. Why did you? What do you think is more probable?

I did? Can you remind me where? I don't recall speaking about scum teams, but if I did it is probably because I just finished a 12 person game with 3 scum.

@A_Squirrel - I'll get your questions in a few minutes; I'm not ignoring you.

xvart.

[xvart]

When we lynch TheButtonmen and he flips scum, the first place I'm looking is A_Squirrel since he not only random votes but also justifies it as actually being random based on a website.

So button is number one on your list(and you're sure he's scum), and I am number two? And my position is based on the earlier coincidence , which you said was a null and would be filed away for later? So what changed your mind?

Honestly you had fallen off my radar, and I can't remember what the connection was. I think I was just posting my plans at the time to press you next. I also think I poorly led into the next comment about how if TheButtonmen, 5cvm, and you all turned out scum I would "crap my pants," just based on the opening of the day. At this time, I have no feelings towards you.

xvart.

[xvart]

also. You're the first to mention a 3 man scumteam. Why did you? What do you think is more probable?

I did? Can you remind me where? I don't recall speaking about scum teams, but if I did it is probably because I just finished a 12 person game with 3 scum.

I think I just found the reference when I made my last post. When I said if TheButtonmen, A_Squirrel, and 5cvm were scum I would crap my pants I didn't even think about it making a statement about a three man team. I guess it was just because the 12 person game I just finished had three people and 5cvm with his antics and the thing about A_Squirrel, it was more of a joke than anything.

xvart.

[xvart]

the more I read 5cvm, the more sense his posts seem to make (unless he is setting up an elaborate gambit, to which I guess I have fallen for?).

Care to tell us what sense you've made of it?

Initially I thought that 5cvm was doing his antic just because we was goofing off and such, but the more I read his posts I guess the better I get them.

Again, what have you learned now from his posts?

I don't think 5cvm is going to be modkilled.

Well no duh. If he was going to be modkilled don't you think he would've been modkilled in one of the last ten posts by Boxman? Way to go out on a limb there.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'd rather not assume he will get modkilled. Duh.

My point that seem to be missing is if he was going to be modkilled, he would have on the first day when he said I'm scum with such and such people. Talking about 5cvm getting modkilled helps nothing, but whatever.

I could explain what I think his posts mean, but then again I could be completely wrong because I'm not him.

Then again I'm not him, and you would probably be better off asking him what he means.

And I'm asking you, not him, what you think his posts mean. You said they were making sense, and I want to hear what you see in his posts. Please, enlighten me.

xvart.

[xvart]

5cvm - are you going to claim if you are put to L-1 or are you going to continue to be a lame loser? If I were the mod I would force replace you and ban you and milkshake from future games. Being an asswipe like this, unless it specifically tells you to do so (which I doubt considering it is a mini normal), ruins the game for everyone.

xvart.

[xvart]

Welcome, Scott! Happy hunting.

Now on to business: Since my concern about TheButtonmen stalled out several days ago I am going to unvote him and move on to more pressing concerns.

Unvote: TheButtonmen

Although I am severely torn about 5cvm, I am not going to vote for him. There are plenty of ways around this situation without lynching someone who could very likely be town, such as a vig kill or an investigation for a reveal later on. The reason I am torn is because I recently defended a similar pattern of behavior (although it was due to incompetence and not being a jackass) and that person turned out to be scum. I'd rather wait for now. I think we can actually do some scumhunting in the meantime.

With that said, I am finding Evilgorrilaz more and more scummy, with his sudden defense of 5cvm and lack of credible explanation for his defense. It is almost like he knows 5cvm is town and is trying to look like he is defending him now when his possible inevitable lynch is just around the corner.

I also find it strange that his current vote is still his original RVS vote, like he doesn't care that much about who actually gets lynched or want to contribute with his vote.

Vote: Evilgorrilaz

xvart.

[xvart]

And squirrel, ask xvart on that one. I quite frankly don't see his connection as especially damning but that was the main reason xvart gave so that was the one I responsed to.

My point is Evilgorillaz originally said this:

the more I read 5cvm, the more sense his posts seem to make (unless he is setting up an elaborate gambit, to which I guess I have fallen for?).

I read this original post as saying he understood the content of his posts more. When asked to explain more, Evilgorrilaz said this:

I could explain what I think his posts mean, but then again I could be completely wrong because I'm not him.

I think hes just reacting to people reacting to his playstyle, which is why he finds some people (like hito) scummy.

Then again I'm not him, and you would probably be better off asking him what he means.

and this:

Point 2) I think hes just reacting to people reacting to his playstyle, which is why he finds some people (like hito) scummy.

I read these posts as first distancing himself by telling me to ask 5cvm about his playstyle and second saying 5cvm is reacting to others reacting to his playstyle. When EvilGorillaz first said he made sense of 5cvm's post and then says it is just a reaction to others I didn't see the connection that was originally implied.

xvart.

[xvart]

Sorry everyone, catching up now. Will post later tonight as time allows.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm actually getting a little more concerned with 5cvm now that he is at least postulating about game theory and seemingly "participating," especially considering it was mentioned about him getting more and more helpful as the days go on.

I'm warming up to the idea of lynching him, and your points are well taken, Hito. I want to get a few more questions answered before, though.

Evilgorillaz - what is your impression of Aranfan?

Aranfan and Chibo - what is your impression of Evilgorillaz?

Hito - based on what has transpired so far today, what will be your next move tomorrow should 5cvm flip scum? What if he flips town?

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm on board now. I do think the most legitimate connection is Evilgorillaz but I suppose if we can get rid of someone anti-town (at the least) and someone who is scum in one swoop, so be it.

Unvote: Evilgorillaz
Vote: 5cvm

xvart.

[xvart]

gosh xvart, you're not supposed to give ME presents on your birthday~

lol. Just remember to give me a gift on your birthday.

xvart.

[xvart]

@Xvart
I am concerned as well about 5cvm's sudden change in style. Initial thoughts agree with you that 5cvm is changing his playstyle after I said I can make sense of his posts.

My concern was more of the sudden change of style to give the impression (rather weakly) that he is now more pro-town. Some scum gambit that he could later say "why would I play like that if I was scum, now I'm contributing." My only other thought is that he might be a power role trying to be scummy so he will always be a distraction and won't get NK'ed.

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart/you both stated hito was being too opportunistic.

I did?

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm jumping ship on this 5cvm wagon. As I thought more and more about it, my justification is absurd, that being the connection between 5cvm to Evilgorillaz would require that 5cvm is town. Lynching a townie to maybe prove someone is scum? I'm embarrassed I even thought such a thing.

As for his latest reply, I really don't understand why he's suspicious of everyone on the 5cvm wagon.

I think there is at least 1 scum on the 5cvm wagon. I don't think I am alone in this thinking. xvart/you both stated hito was being too opportunistic. I kinda think scott/arafan/confidanon were being more opportunistic, but w.e

Changing your tune from throwing a blanket suspicion on everyone on the wagon to only at least one person on the wagon is scum? Did you get too much attention for your comment and are now backing off? I believe Scott was on the mark with EG's post reeking of knowing that 5cvm is town.

Instead of lynching 5cvm to see if Evilgorillaz is scum, why don't we lynch Evilgorillaz to get more information on 5cvm? I think this is a much more pro-town play because Evilgorillaz is acting scummy while 5cvm has acted anti-town. I'd rather lynch the scum.

Unvote: 5cvm
Vote: Evilgorillaz

xvart.

[xvart]

I think in my haste to point out that a policy lynch works regardless of alignment you guys got it in your head that 5cvm is almost certainly town, or something. That's not true. With the username '5cvm' and the fact that his playstyle is probably the reason he is an alt freshly minted, it's probably a null tell.

I agree that 5cvm's alignment is independent of his name. I don't

believe

that he is definitely town.

Hito - Do you think that if one of Evilgorillaz or 5cvm is scum then the other one is, too? Or do you believe that one is scum and one is town? Or do you not know/care or think it could be any possible combination (town/town, town/scum, or scum/scum)?

And before anyone slaps me for setting up a dichotomy (hissss!), the reason I ask is because Evilgorrilaz post does seem like he knows that 5cvm is going to flip town if/when he gets lynched. This concerns me greatly and since I had previous suspicions of Evilgorillaz being scum (as my previous vote on him proves) then if Evilgorillaz is scum, I would be more inclined to believe that 5cvm is town, but that still would not be a guarantee.

My vote for 5cvm, as I tried to explain, was absurd because in my reasoning I said that I wanted to get more information about Evilgorillaz, but the end result, if Evilgorillaz flips scum, is that I helped lynch a town-aligned individual to get more information about someone I already suspected as being scum. That is unacceptable in my book, and thus I unvoted.

Hito - how would you feel if 5cvm was lynched and he flipped a town power role?

xvart.

[xvart]

going for scummy or anti-town players is a town tell.

No, going for anti-town players is not a town tell at all. Going for anti-town players could be done just as easily by a mafia, especially since mafia know the person is town and just behaving anti-town; making the perfect mislynch while appearing to scumhunt.

xvart.

[xvart]

We need to stop posting senseless filler posts about this. Vote who you think will FLIP scum.

I am.

xvart.

[xvart]

Hey everybody.
Don't all greet me at once!

Reading through the game now and will probably post some thoughts.

Greetings! Welcome, and happy hunting!

He's not in immediate danger of being lynched, for being scum or on policy, which I find strangest of the entire "episode." I'm leaning towards town for scvm, but not because of anything he's done or said. (I mean, unless I'm missing something, in practice he's basically stuck with xvart and buttonmen since page 1).

So, just to be clear because I can't get a solid read of your opinion on the situation, you think 5cvm is town but you still think we should lynch him because he is "baggage?" Or that we should not lynch him despite him being "baggage?"

I really didn't like how xvart just left the policy-lynch position. He waffled about it before, but then seemed on board, and then got off again. Almost like seeing he could get away with leaving scvm alive (or following the lead of his partner who had already been doing it).

I wasn't voting 5cvm as a policy lynch. I was voting for him, at the time, because I thought it would get more information about Evilgorillaz, hence the get rid of anti-town and scum in one stroke. But as I said, after the fact, I realized that I was banking on the fact that I would be lynching a (hopeful) town member to get at a (hopeful) mafia member. I realized there are so many problems with that scenario that I just did not feel justified that my vote on 5cvm was for the right reasons. I feel pretty strongly that Evilgorillaz is scum, and I would much rather lynch him today and see that alignment, especially if it gives more information about the other person in question, 5cvm. I feel my logic in that regard is sound, and I stand by it.

And there was this I really didn't like, Post 279

Now on to business: Since my concern about TheButtonmen stalled out several days ago I am going to unvote him and move on to more pressing concerns.

Pretty please correct me if I'm wrong but... your case stalled, no one cared, a BW didn't start, so you decided to go elsewhere?

So, it must have been the concern stalling out in your head?...that's a pretty weak concern to have over 250 posts into the game :/

I see what you are saying; but I again feel justified in my vote switch. My concern over Thebuttonmen has only been that initial line of questioning. He hasn't done anything to reinforce my case on him, and I'm not about to go gangbusters all over him in light of everything else that is going on. It would be distracting. I still have a scummy reading on Thebuttonmen, but it isn't near as strong as my reading on Evilgorillaz. And you're right, I suppose, that the concern stalled out in my head, but I don't see how sticking with the first person I had a strong reading on until either he was lynched or someone else was lynched would be beneficial for anyone.

--Side note: do we know the roles? How many scum are there? AND How do you do an ISO view on a player?

We don't know the roles. We don't know how many scum there are. You do an ISO by going to the bottom of the page, selecting the name of the person you want to ISO, and clicking submit. That will show you only that person's posts.

I'm jumping ship on this 5cvm wagon. As I thought more and more about it, my justification is absurd, that being the connection between 5cvm to Evilgorillaz would require that 5cvm is town. Lynching a townie to maybe prove someone is scum? I'm embarrassed I even thought such a thing.

Maybe this was addressed, but it caught my attention. Not scummy perhaps, though certainly some spotty/faulty reasoning. Noted.

Are you saying that my original reason for voting was spotty/faulty reasoning or my explanation of my unvote was spotty/faulty? If it is the former, than I wholeheartedly agree, hence my unvote.

So I guess, replacing can be really disorientating haha, but atm I'd be willing to vote for aranfan, hito, brosius (rules out hito in my mind) or one of the people who has defended scvm- especially anyone defending a person who initially called for not lynching him (if someone can make a good case, or if I come up with one after reading again, thinking xvart maybe).

So basically you are for lynching anyone?

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP: Welcome Tommy! Happy hunting.

xvart.

[xvart]

No, again you are twisting the argument, making them outrageous. You and xvart have a habit of doing this. It is slightly annoying.

Jigga-what? When/where have I done this and how come I haven't been called out on it yet?

xvart.

[xvart]

Happy holidays. I'll post before COB today.

xvart.

[xvart]

So basically you are for lynching anyone?

Sorry, this was it. I took this as a lowly-weak-attack on myself. Addressed it when I signed my post Xfart. Didn't appreciate it very much, that's why that slipped in there.

Really in reference to hito, who's case is coming together nicely I think.

I have a tendency to be overly-defensive, confrontational, over-aggressive, loud, and abrasive whenever I play this game. If that is offensive to your "palette", I'd hope you don't let it affect your considerations of any merit a case of mine might have.

I don't take anything personally, nor do I let it get in the way of sound deductive reasoning. You could call me an assbag and present a solid case and I would vote with you.

Anyways, my point was you basically threw your pointed finger at five people saying you would be willing to lynch any of those five (aranfan, hito (later in the sentence you said maybe not hito based on suspecting scott brosius, and me. Then you also said you might be willing to vote for anyone that is defending 5cvm (which I don't remember who has exactly "defended him" but I know the people who are trying to string him up are in your original list of five. Your broad willingness to vote included the people that want 5cvm to be lynched today (except Tommy) and the people that are defending him.

My original comment was more of a joke than anything, but now that I have typed that all that out I am a little concerned about this broad willingness to vote, and it should be obvious why.

Evilgorillaz has "defended" 5cvm more than anyone (at least in my opinion) so you should be okay with voting him; so why don't you move your vote over to Evilgorillaz to get some more pressure on him?

Because he is claiming scum and has been accusing the same people of being his 'scumbuddies' all game!

So hito, if 5cvm flips scum are you going straight for Thebuttonmen and/or me tomorrow, since 5cvm claimed us as buddies?

xvart.

[xvart]

Are you treating 5cvm as confirmed town forever? If not, what would it take to get you to lynch him? Would you ignore all of your other scum reads on another day to lynch him? Or are you convinced you can divine 'scum reads' from a player who is actively claiming scum? What action could 5cvm do that you would consider scummy?

Absolutely not. Nobody is ever confirmed town in my book. To lynch him today it would take a fast approaching deadline and 5cvm the only person with a bandwagon. I am not convinced I can divine anything, but I think tomorrow will yield a better understanding of 5cvm's alignment, especially if Evilgorillaz is lynched today.

Whoa, slow down there xfart. I can't be suspicious of 4 or 5 people?
You accuse me of poitning too many fingers in the same breath you ask why I don't go and vote gorillaz?

You can be suspicious of as many people as you wish, I just find it interesting that you point blank list five people and then have an additional conditional voting for anyone defending 5cvm, which off the top of my head includes Evilgorillaz, so that brings your suspect list up to at least six people. That's at least half of the entire town population. My concern is you have given the appearance as to being willing to vote for anyone, depending on how the wind blows. You've got your fingers in every cookie jar.

I also find it intriguing that you do not list 5cvm on your suspect list, but you would lynch anyone defending him, which while it is not a direct contradiction, it is pretty close. In order for you to be suspicious of the people defending 5cvm then you would have to think that 5cvm is scum, or else why would those defending him be suspicious? You are also currently voting for hito, who is the biggest advocate for the 5cvm lynch.

So hito, if 5cvm flips scum are you going straight for Thebuttonmen and/or me tomorrow, since 5cvm claimed us as buddies?

Hito's right about scvm's EARLY claims being null. But I would lynch one of you if scvm flipped scum.

Why would you lynch one of us if he flips scum if his scum buddy claims are null?

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP:

Are you treating 5cvm as confirmed town forever? If not, what would it take to get you to lynch him? Would you ignore all of your other scum reads on another day to lynch him? Or are you convinced you can divine 'scum reads' from a player who is actively claiming scum? What action could 5cvm do that you would consider scummy?

Absolutely not. Nobody is ever confirmed town in my book. To lynch him today it would take a fast approaching deadline and 5cvm the only person with a bandwagon. I am not convinced I can divine anything, but I think tomorrow will yield a better understanding of 5cvm's alignment, especially if Evilgorillaz is lynched today.

Hito, I should also mention that I find 5cvm to be less of a liability later in the game right now than you and others because he is voting for me. He can keep his vote on me all game and I know it won't hurt the town unless I get a bandwagon rolling on me, other than we can't get him to sway his vote to actual scum.

xvart.

[xvart]

That's difficult for you to understand from my position?

Not difficult at all to understand. Sometimes I just need some clarification.

Lot's of people weren't on the list. Lot's of people aren't posting. I can't say I have any considerable read on lots of players. You've only mentioned like 3 players in your last 5 posts. When I made the 'all players defending scvm' comment, that was my first post mostly, and I think I've gotten a better handle on it since then.

You're right, it was your second post, which is something I forgot. I forgot the chronology since the original reason it was brought up when you said I misrepresented or over-exaggerated or whatever.

Is that an appearance to you? Cause it's obvious that I haven't been willing to vote for anyone. Other folks are far guiltier of BW'ing than me. Which cookie jars? WTF, cookie jar am I in right now.

First, what does BW stand for?

You're never sure about anyone, so then you are a little suspicious of everyone. That's not unreasonable. I usually feel that way after a missed lynch. But saying that, and then suggesting that it's bad/scummy that I'm suspicious of "half the players", certainly you can see why this is a dumb fuckin thing to say.

There is a difference between being "suspicious of everyone" and willing to vote everyone (or half the people in the game, as the case may be). And just because I may not think anyone is confirmed town does not mean my FoS list includes everyone. I question the motives and arguments of those I find most suspicious, and determine from that point who the least likely to be town and vote for them.

You're climbing back onto the list here with this bull shit.

I have no problem with that.

Come on XFART (I'll test what you said about insults if you don't mind), how bad are mis-reppng me right now? [/rhetorical]

My feelings are hurt terribly. Anyways, I don't think I am mis-repping you at all. I wasn't representing you at all. I found something you said and did curious and brought it up for discussion.

Maybe...just maybe...you should have picked an easier/better target when you're trying to pull a shit case out of your ass... ??? You give this appearance, to me.

An easier/better target? I'm not really building a case on you, at least it wasn't my intention. Like I've said before, I find it suspicious that someone would say I'm willing to vote for at least six people (regardless of the post number or page count), instead of throwing out a FoS on a number of people. Willingness to vote for a large number of people is not good since it is easily manipulated by scum since at least half the people on your list are town.

Anyone can read the game, xfart, and see you are making this BW accusation up. I haven't BW'd anything. You made it up, then you embellished. Doesn't look very good.

What have I made up? What have I embellished?

Although, I'd like to hear how bad everyone else thinks xfart's last post was.

I would be interested in hearing this, too. It sounds to me like you are grasping and trying to undermine my credibility. I would almost call it an overreaction, but we'll let the others be the judge of that. I wouldn't want to misrepresent you again.

He just consistently wants to lynch gorillaz for some apparently uncertain reasons.

I was pretty clear in my reasons for my vote for Evilgorillaz.

Oh, and he's trying to build a fantastically shitty case on me.

Again, I'm not building a case on you. I just pointed out what I thought was something suspicious.

Unless my memory fails me, buttons backed scvm first. Gorillaz and xfart followed suit later.

I don't recall "backing" 5cvm. I removed my vote for him because I realized my reasoning was not sound. I've also said that if Evilgorillaz flips scum I would be more inclined to believe 5cvm is town.

I should say "far far far" guiltier. Aranfan, for example. Who you seem curiously uninterested in...

My strongest scum read is still on Arafan by a large margin, followed by Humble.

Can someone point me to the summarized argument on Arafan? I think it has been posted but I can't find it.

xvart.

[xvart]

And I haven't liked it. (BW= bandwagon)

Oh yeah, duh. Thanks.

I don't recall "backing" 5cvm

Cause u were third on the BW I think, and then you were the first off?

First, being the first off a wagon does not equal thinking that person is town; nor does it mean I am supporter of that person,

especially

when the justification for removing the vote was clearly explained.

So you don't remember being embarrased about wanting to lynch scvm before gorillaz? (A logic I didn't like btw)

So you think it is a better idea to lynch an anti-town townsperson to determine if someone else is scum instead of lynching a scummy player to determine an anti-town person is town? I think it's a terrible idea, but if you think it is a good idea to lynch townspeople for the sake of proving someone is scum, rock and roll. Contrary to what hito said earlier about being here to lynch anti-town, lynching scum is my only goal.

I don't Fos much. You can sue me for that, but don't say someone's not using enough Fos'es AND is too willing to vote for too many people.

I didn't say that. I said it is fine to FoS half the town but it is not okay to be willing to vote for the entire town. And I will further explain why in a moment.

Where'd you get the "wind blows" thing? Could you show where I've done that? (Don't bother even trying). And this cookie jar thing, jesus that isn't even close to presenting an accurate picture of my behavior, voting, or even thinking. So I'm 'too willing to vote for anyone, and am simply after the town's top suspect or next suspect?' This is what you said. And like I said, anyone can read the game and see that this curious picture you're painting is not true. Soooo whatever, I guess you might be right, I am overreacting... huh, it's a joke? It is a joke isn't it? Haha, good.

How the wind blows is an expression, as is having your hand in the cookie jar. By saying "depending on how the wind blows" I mean your voting list is so large and you were willing to vote so many people. You have set yourself up at the beginning to be able to switch your vote to half the town, so depending on how the wind blows you can vote for half the town if you wished. You've also got your hands in a lot of cookie jars, so to speak, because you made your intention clear that you would vote for half the town.

Willingness to vote for a large number of people is not good since it is easily manipulated by scum since at least half the people on your list are town.

Here it seems like your concern is more that it allows the scum to manipulate a townie into doing their bidding, or giving them viable roads to take. You are trying to make me look bad from both angles using a theory argument. God damn that's stupid.

It is a completely practical argument. With a voting list of six people around half (or more) of them are town. Sounds like a golden opportunity for scum since they know they can count on your vote on a large population of town-members. Now that in and of itself is not scummy, more anti-town, unless of course you aren't worried about scum manipulating your vote because you guys have already worked out your votes during the night phase.

But hey, atleast you admitted that it's not scummy for my opinions to change with time.

I don't think I ever suggested otherwise.

@ Civil; Would you be willing to join the Arafan wagon?

Yes, he's obviously full of crap. Incidentally, I'd also like to see xvart read and make up his own mind, and then vote for me instead of aranfan.

I don't understand this. You want me to read up on Arafan and decide whether or not I think he is scummy. Then you want me to vote for you instead of voting for Arafan (if my read on Arafan is scum)?

xvart.

[xvart]

I personally like post walls; but that is neither here nor there.

Civil is also leaning town in my book now. I stand by everything I said but I think the way he posted in his own defense in indicative of town behavior.

I think humble added some good points to the Evilgorillaz case, and I think it is obvious that he is the lynch today. Let's string him up once Aranfan posts his analysis.

xvart.

[xvart]

While I would dearly like to lynch EG, the fact that Aran can't seem to post a case when a.) his life is on the line and b.) there is an incredibly clear target he can go for to save his own skin suggests to me that there is no event that will make Aran post content - so my vote ain't moving.

So what do you conclude about Aranfan's latest vote on Evilgorillaz? Is it a last minute bus?

xvart.

[xvart]

Okay then. I'm assuming it is okay to hammer now?

Unvote: Evilgorillaz
Vote: Aranfan

xvart.

[xvart]

You're kind of slow there xvart... Didn't Aranfan hammer himself?

Yes, apparently I am a little slow. I guess I was so shocked by the scum claim that I missed the self vote.

xvart.

[xvart]

The mostly likely combination for those kills is vig, mafia, SK. If that's the case, there is either zero or one mafiosos's left. Notably, this means if 5cvm is scum, he's NOT scum with button or xvart.

If the assumption about being only one scum is true then then he/she would not be scum with anyone.

I agree with the sk and vig theory; not that it matters. I'll be reading back through as well through the day. More content to come tonight.

xvart.

[xvart]

Interesting.

2 mafia are dead and there seems to be an SK. Does that mean we killed all the mafia, and now are looking for the SK?

2 Kills doesn't mean that there isn't Mafia. Assuming that mafia had a doctor, it could be feasible that town also has a doctor and someone is protected (although I guess the death scene would reveal a lot). Maybe 1-shot vig? I doubt that though.

I don't like either of these posts. They feel to me like misdirection, just asking questions about game setup and assumptions that aren't necessarily grounded on anything. For example,

• Does that mean we killed all the mafia, and now are looking for the SK?
  -Subtly suggesting not to look for mafia? Then:
  
  Two kills doesn't mean that there isn't Mafia.
  
  
  Assuming that mafia had a doctor, it could be feasible that town also has a doctor and someone is protected.
  - So there should have been another killing role and four deaths had this alleged doctor not selected correctly?
  
  Maybe 1-shot vig? I doubt that though.
  -Why would you doubt that?

I'm thinking we nailed all the scum day one.

Vote: Evilgorrilaz

I'll respond to hito and squirrel's posts later.

xvart.

[xvart]

I agree with ASquirrels findings on xvart, particularly not jumping on the Aranfan wagon, concluding that Civil was town, and more.

I completely recognize how it looks for me; that being not so good. I'll do my best to prove otherwise.

My attitude on the whole hito analysis vs squirrel's analysis and think the best course would be to follow hito's suggestion to look for connections. For starters, we most likely have a serial killer and a sk's motive is random killing I would suggest we continue to look for connections as if there were scum and we might get lucky and hit the serial killer. Tomorrow we will know if there is more than one kill. Since the sk is most likely randomly killing and not going to be doing his best to not have connections at all it would be much more difficult to seek the sk. Unless of course the sk off'ed someone who was on to him; so... that would mean the sk would have targeted Squirrel since Furry mostly talked about his scumminess.

I'm going to ponder on Squirrel for now, but in the meantime:

Unvote: EvilGorrilaz

xvart.

[xvart]

This whole paragraph confuses me. The first sentence seems incomplete and hito's analysis was based on the lack of connections.

Yes, I meant your method of looking for connections, not hito's.

Also, scumhunting via connections and hoping to hit the sk is odd, since any sk-scum connections are going to be purely coincidental (neither knows who the other group is).

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. The sk is just like any other townie and having no idea who is whom, with no known faction. My point was if we keep looking for scum we could still accidentally hit a townie but we just as easily hit the serial killer. I've never played a game with the serial killer so I don't really know what to look for since there won't be any scum slips of partners, knowledge, etc (except maybe something totally dumb).

I agree that we should examine sk kills but the follow up to that sentence doesnt make sense to me, unless what you meant to say was that I'm the sk and targeted furry because furry posted a few comments saying he would be voting for me at a certain point in time.

That's exactly what I meant, although it was more of a passive aggressive method of stating it (sorry it wasn't clear) as I'm not ready to directly accuse anyone of being the serial killer, but that was the only reason I could think of for "hunting the sk", which just so happened to be you. It was more of an observation for discussion than a flat accusation.

xvart.

[xvart]

I would also disagree with the idea that the sk is randomly killing--the sk needs to live till endgame so I would imagine he would try not to stand out to prevent NKs and target strong/important players to weaken town.

So you agree that the SK is not randomly killing, but your suggestion is not about the SK killing pattern, but about day play. If the SK is not randomly killing, what do we base the kills off of when analyzing them?

Come Hitogoroshi, Your letting yourself be side tracked agian! Vote for great justice, Vote for Chibo!

Look at his posts; going on about how Mafia Doc is a powerful role, I ask you who thinks that? People who have a kill! And it doesn't really stop town as town has the greatest power of all, the Lynch! Now who kills at night, isn't town and isn't mafia, the SK!

Also @Humble; where's that post you promised?

@Everyone; Its been over 24hrs since the last post in this game, don't let D1 be a repeat of D2.

P.S Vote Chibo

This post does not sit well with me at all. Vote for great justice? The town have the greatest power of all? Frankly, I think the doc has a powerful role as well since he can protect the others he has. The mafia doctor has a much better chance of saving one of his scum buddies should a NK happen on one of the mafia.

This whole cheerleading thing against Chibo is very interesting...

The other thing that I didn't mention yesterday in my exchange with Civil Scum was that having a huge suspicion list sets you up to be a perfect NK since it would be tough to narrow it down who might have wanted him dead. I didn't mention it yesterday because if Civil Scum was town it would set him up as suspicious since he was still alive after my comment (WIFOM, I suppose). Had he survived the night I would have retracted my comments about him being town.

I was pretty sure we had one SK yesterday and I'm now pretty sure we still have another scum guy left. We should lynch SK because he is probably unkillable (1 time, perhaps).

First, how were you pretty sure there was a SK yesterday, prior to any NK activities? What lead you to that conclusion. Second, why would you assume the SK is unkillable?

Something to mull over, but right now I'm leaning towards TheButtonmen or Humble Poirot as my top lynch candidates right now. Their ponderings make zero sense to me.

xvart.

[xvart]

First, I wanted to apologize to everyone for my absence. I went on vacation and my hotel did not have internet connection, despite it advertising that it did; so I had no way to contact the mods. As soon as I got back I sent a pm to the two mods of the games I was in. I did not know how far along Boxman was with the replacements so I just asked him to let me know if he wanted me to just continue with my role or if he had someone else lined up already. I guess the reason I never heard from him was because the game was abandoned. I really feel bad about my absence and I hope all is forgiven.

I was a watcher. I watched hitogorshi the first night. I almost watched Civil Scum instead, but I tried to set him up as a solid townie by echoing Hito's claim that he was a solid town read, just to see if he would survive the night. If he was around the next day I was going to come out guns ablazing after him since he would have been the ideal night kill, and if he was dead I would have seen the person that targeted him.

xvart.

[xvart]

Evil gorillaz was the third scum

Shit. I was all over him!

And I'm not sure about that xvart...slow down there...I was going to link you pretty solidly to aranfan D-2, after explaining my turn around on hito and bashing scvm for him a little. You were going down with aranfan, xvart, believe me.

Yeah, it's possible I could have gone down do to my significant drop off in activity even prior to going on vacation; but, I'm pretty sure I could have stayed alive, though. I was trying to buy my time until I was away from my job. I really hate my job and was having some serious motivation problems with anything personal related... I was so excited to go away and have some time away from the job and the stresses and everything else and get back in the game.

It is nice to know that my gut reads were right, especially after I went off the deep end and totally blew it last game on a gut read. That's why I was having trouble following through on someone. I so wanted to keep going on both EG and Civil but I just couldn't because I kept second guessing myself.

I was having a lot of fun with the game, despite having personal problems.

xvart.