T-shirts, Cards, etc.

[mith]

With the jeepfest Mafia cards going over so well, we had some discussion about putting out a set for purchase at some point (not the same set, as I used copyrighted images almost exclusively ). We've also never done scum shirts, or any other stuff like that.

If there's enough interest (and I won't know how much enough is until I figure out how we'd go about it), we'll set up a little shop at some point. Any profits would go to server costs and such. If there's anything else you'd really like to see, post it here.

[mith]

My dad knows a guy (how many times have I said that? ) who does custom t-shirts. I'll ask him tomorrow night at church how much he could do it for (or get dad to, if I'm not feeling well). There's places online as well we can look at, or if anyone has experience with custom t-shirts, let me know.

The GL shop is on cafepress, but I've never been particularly impressed with their selection. I think t-shirts and cards would be our main items, and the cards will have to be done elsewhere anyway; anything else, we can add in as there's interest and if it's feasible. (If anyone *is* interested in random mostly-white shirts and bags and thongs with some sort of mafia related logo on, feel free to request that too, I don't mind setting up a cafepress shop as well.)

[mith]

jeep, go ahead and find out how much it would cost, we can compare prices and such.

Black is going to be most expensive, but makes the most sense. Mr. Stoofer, I already mentioned cafepress (it's what the GL uses), but to elaborate on why it's not my first choice, most of their stuff is white (I think they have a couple other light colors for shirts), and while we could probably come up with some *new* design for white shirts/etc., nothing we have now really works with it. As far as shirts go, it will probably be cheaper to do them separately anyway, so long as there are enough people interested in buying one.

A few other considerations:

I wouldn't want to use the wallpaper design as is due to the capital M and S really bothering me. But that may just be me.
Whatever is used should have the .net, not just mafiascum.
The more complicated, the more it'll cost.
Anyone is of course welcome to submit some designs for consideration. Keep in mind though that there is going to be a setup fee for each different design, so it's really only feasible to do a couple.

A few design ideas:

Just text, front and/or back (cheapest)
Just the front-page mafiascum.net logo, front of shirt.
mafiascum.net logo on back, text on front (a mob has formed, for example; if it's any simpler to do plain text, this might be the best option, as we might be able to have a variety of text options)
Small mafiascum.net logo on front (top left), wallpaper on back (minus the MafiaScum.net)

[mith]

As far as cards go, I need to talk to casinopete to get some details (and he'll be "occupied" for another week ). At the moment I'm assume standard playing card size, in which case the design template I've already got made would work quite well (other than having to mess with the corners, if they're curved). Stick figures would be fun, but I think we can do a bit more professional than that. I know we have some artsy types on here.

Either way, we can start discussing what cards should be in the deck. Here's what I went with for jeepfest:

Mafia family: Vito Corleone (godfather), Michael Corleone (godfather), Sonny, Fredo, Luca Brasi, Tom Hagen, Peter Clemenza, Tessio (traitor)
Werewolf family: Wolfman (godfather), Werebear, (American) Werewolf in London, Teenwolf, Oz, Remus Lupin, Furry (traitor)
Cult Leader: Dracula
Serial Killers: Hannibal Lecter, Jack the Ripper

(notes: all images copyrighted, so obviously we couldn't use them for this. Probably a more generic setup is better, I just thought I'd be cute with unique scum.)

Cop x 8 (sherlock holmes image)
Doctor x 4 (bones from star trek image)
Vigilante x 4 (gunslinger image)
Mason x 5 (perry mason image)
Deputy (backup cop, barney fife image)
Nurse (backup doc, sexy nurse image)
FBI Agent (clarice image)
Roleblocker x 2 (red light district image)
Innocent Townsperson x 16 (mob image)
Blank x 4

Card back: mafiascum.net/GL jeepstock 2005 image

That pretty much covered all the basics. Obviously there is plenty of room for mafiascum specific in-jokes that I simply didn't have time to impliment. The main concern is that there is plenty of flexibility to cover a wide range of game sizes.

[mith]

Serial Killers: Hannibal Lecter, Jack the Ripper

And the ones I made do have a text description, though I think the conclusion I've come to after playing with them is that it's far more important to just go over what each card is and does before playing. A bit of a give away when someone spends way longer reading their card.

[mith]

Yeah. Not worth what it costs. We can do better.

Dad had a meeting, so I guess we'll have to wait til Sunday to talk to the guy at church. I'll keep looking for other options as well.

[mith]

We'll definitely work something out with regards to written agreement; that's why as far as t-shirts go, I'm inclined to go with the front page logo and some text. Has PolarBoy even been around recently?

[mith]

Just checking in to say that I haven't forgotten about this. Hopefully talking to a t-shirt guy tomorrow, to get an idea how much this might cost.

[mith]

When there is news, I will post it here.

[mith]

Yes, that was the point of making them generic, really. It's simple enough to ban claiming which card you have, but it could still get a bit annoying.

Cards are going to be a bit difficult anyway. Unless there are enough people interested, we may be looking at something like $20 per deck. Card printing companies are not set up to do a small run of cards. I'm still looking into possibilities, it just may be a bit of a wait before I have anything specific. It shouldn't matter what design they have on them though (i.e. it won't be cheaper to have a bunch of generic townies than to have townies with avatars or something).

T-shirts... hopefully I'll have things organized in time for Christmas? No promises. Still some things to work out there.

[mith]

Just another "I haven't forgotten about this" note. Expect something substantial on one or the other by Christmas (if not both). Ideally, I'd like to have something available *for* Christmas, but that's just not feasible I think.

[mith]

This has been delayed for so long because stuff like this requires an artist, and no one was stepping up to volunteer. The cards (roles and text) won't be that different from the jeepfest cards (a few less scum cards because there's really no need for as many as are in there, replaced by a few pro-town roles that have become more standard). It's the art that I need.

That said, I do have one possibility for an artist; he's even sent a sample. So I will be in touch with him in the next few weeks and we'll see how it goes.

If anyone else is interested in doing artwork for cards (or t-shirts)

PM me

. Once someone has put significant effort into doing artwork, I'm not likely to be interested in telling him that someone else has volunteered and I'm going to use their work instead; but on the other hand, if there's more than one option, I'd like the community to have some input on what sort of design they would prefer (i.e. which would sell better).

If I remember the costs jeep looked at correctly, one deck will probably cost around $10, and there may be discounts for bigger orders. It depends a lot on how many are willing to buy though, because there will be a minimum order.

[mith]

If anyone else is interested in doing artwork for cards (or t-shirts)

PM me

. Once someone has put significant effort into doing artwork, I'm not likely to be interested in telling him that someone else has volunteered and I'm going to use their work instead; but on the other hand, if there's more than one option, I'd like the community to have some input on what sort of design they would prefer (i.e. which would sell better).

I don't want to be a jerk about this, but this is not going to work if three or more different groups are trying to design their own stuff at the same time I'm trying to get this together. No one is going to be selling mafiascum merchandise without my permission anyway.

As mentioned, I've already got at least one artist interested in doing stuff for the cards, and he has sent me samples which show promise. I am certainly willing to go with other art if there's a reason to, but you need to be showing your work to me soon if you want it to be considered. Even if you're just designing templates, I'll need to know what the size will need to be for the artwork and let the artist know that before he starts on the real thing.

For the t-shirts, I think you are probably underestimating the labor involved. That said, I will certainly *consider* that option... if it's feasible, I don't mind someone else being involved making them (I certainly can't do it, I'll be in another country), as long as any financial issues are worked out in advance; maybe this isn't a concern, but I don't want anyone getting the idea that they are going to make huge profits by jumping in to get involved in this - all profits beyond some labor consideration will have to go to past, present, and future server costs.

[mith]

Thanks, I'll take a look later today (and post some other thoughts).

[mith]

Sorry LB, you posted this at a very busy time and I missed it.

At the moment, I am mostly focusing on getting research stuff done. I think in the next couple weeks that should settle down a bit, and then I can get to this. I would really like to have *something* ready in time for Christmas this year.

[mith]

(This will happen, someday. Right now, getting on a new server is a priority.)

[mith]

I'll get to looking at t-shirts again in a couple weeks (when I'm back in the UK). If nothing else, I'll set up an online shop on something like cafepress (but probably not cafepress, since from everything I've heard they suck) until we an do something better. (If anyone has suggestions on that, let me know.)

Still no luck with card art. As always, if you are an artist and willing/able to do graphics for this, get in touch by PM.

[mith]

Agreed. Good design, low color count. Is that your artwork, Mert?

(I've been looking into setting something up on cafepress or zazzle in the short term. Once I'm back in the states permanently, it will be more realistic for me to look at getting some done in bulk and shipping them myself to cut out the middleman.)

[mith]

It's on the list. I had significantly less free time the past few weeks that I had expected, but things are opening up again now.

I've contacted MBF regarding using his flash animation work for card graphics; if anyone is interested in doing original artwork in a different style, please contact me. Beyond that, I can likely handle the design myself, though if anyone is interested in that and has appropriate software, let me know.

Re: shirts, I like some of Jahudo's designs. It might be more cost effective to use a redesigned mafiascum logo (which only uses a few colors), though.

Shirts will almost certainly come first, though I still haven't decided on where to do them.

[mith]

Thanks for the reminder, Mirth. Now that I'm back in the states, ordering in bulk is a much more realistic option.

Anyone up for designing a red and white (on black) logo? Could possibly include the ".net" in the logo, so it's unnecessary to have the url separate. I like the basic Jahudo design; some sort of text on the front, the logo on the back possibly with text underneath. "A mob has formed" or "Are you /in?" are possibilities for either front or back text. We're going to have to limit things to a small number of designs (maybe even just one) initially, because of minimum order and bulk order constraints. Depends on how many want to buy.

(Can do more colors of course, 50 cents more per shirt per color, basically. So feel free to offer designs that use more. We'll figure out some way to decide on which to use later.)

[mith]

Meant to post here a couple days ago, keep putting it off 'cause I've been sick. Anyway.

Re: T-shirts, I think most people like SL's design for the front, and something simple for the back (Jahudo's version, for example). Still open to simple site logos (rather than just MafiaScum.net in text) and alternate slogans. But I think we'll just do the one design for now, maybe with a couple options for color schemes (Black, obviously; maybe a Green one with black stickfigures as an alternate, to make Glork and the GST crowd happy?).

Re: Cards, mikeburnfire gave permission to use characters from his flash animation (or a similar design, anyway). I kinda like the idea of using them, since it's one of the things that is quite well known even among other Mafia communities. I don't think Jahudo's drawings meet the resolution requirements we'd need for good quality cards.

I'll put together some mock cards myself next week, and also a draft of a card list.

[mith]

Ok, I've started a little list of "essential" cards to include. I'm probably forgetting some obvious ones. One goal is to be able to run as many of our favourite tested open setups as possible, so some of the cards are specifically for that purpose.

Suggestions?

Mafia Godfather
Mafia Goon x4
Mafia Roleblocker
Traitor (how often is the traitor used these days?)

Alpha Wolf (not sure how necessary this is... most multigroup games don't have godfathers)
Werewolf x4

Serial Killer

Townie x?

Cop x2 (for double cop)
Doc x2
Jailkeeper
Vigilante
Roleblocker
Tracker
Watcher
Mason x4 (not sure how necessary this is, but there are a few setups with large mason groups)
Deputy
Nurse
Supersaint (for SS3)

Seer
Other Werewolf-specific roles?

How could we deal with one-shot roles? (Other than the obvious "If there's a Vig in this game, it's a one-shot".)

[mith]

There will definitely be blanks.

For Cops, we wouldn't have cards for specific sanities (which are almost never known - the player just receives "Cop" and has to work out sanity). If a game has more than one of a role (or the Mod wants that to be a possibility, in a closed game), the best way to handle it is to wake up each player individually (along with any groups)... the Mod would just have to determine some way of deciding which Cop was which sanity.

For dethy-style setups, or any other setup with lots of one role (Quack, Bad Idea/Texas Justice, etc.), the Mod can just use the Townie cards and explain the setup in advance. I don't think it would be worthwhile to include 8 Cops just in case some crazy person wants to run a closed dethy^2 game (though I did that anyway when I printed my jeepfest deck).

Open to less common roles to include. One thought I had a few days ago that I had forgotten about is that we could look through any Smalltown games and takes some roles from those (a Smalltown game could be run easily by using Goon/Townie for alignment and the other cards face up for roles). Hider, Doublevoter, Governor, Mayor...

[mith]

I suppose we could try to get something together, and ask those that use it to donate some amount to the server fund. I'm not sure that deal is particularly workable for a run of official mafiascum cards, otherwise.

I'll do some thinking on it.

[mith]

This is the list I've got at the moment. Any changes you would make? We could always do a supplemental deck with more obscure stuff, if there's a demand for that. I really need to go through recent games and see what's "in style" at the moment.

A lot of the roles aren't strictly necessary with an experienced group/mod - the Monks are primarily for Masons & Monks, but in an Open Setup you could use any old pair of cards to represent the Monks and announce it beforehand. So if there are better options that would see more use in closed setups...

Code: Select all

1 Mafia Godfather
5 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Roleblocker

1 Alpha Wolf
3 Werewolves

1 Serial Killer

2 Cop
1 One-Shot Cop
1 Seer
1 Tracker
1 Watcher
2 Doctor
1 Roleblocker
1 Vigilante
1 One-Shot Vig
1 Jailkeeper
1 Nurse
1 Deputy
1 Bodyguard
2 Lover
1 Commuter/Hider
1 Supersaint
3 Mason
2 Monk
1 Lyncher
2 Blanks
15 Townie
	
54

[mith]

Right, need to get back on this.

As noted in the updated donation page, we are in a good financial situation, such that we can afford a decent sized print run of t-shirts or cards without having to wait for pre-orders.

For t-shirts, I need to see if I can get in touch with springlullaby about the design discussed a few pages back. I'm open to other designs as well - but keep in mind that in order to proceed I'm going to need a high resolution version of any artwork (so if you can't provide that, we will need to find someone who can should we go forward with your design).

I'm going to contact some of the stand-out artists from the recent EPYC game (including Jahudo, who has been active here in the past), to see if we can get together a little art group for the card designs.

As always, if you are an artist and are willing to contribute to this project, please let me know!

[mith]

It's likely we will have a deck of 54 (most of our possibilities for printing would be better set up for that). It's pretty unlikely that they will double as playing cards, though (at least the first run - depending on demand, we might be able to offer that as an option on a second printing).

[mith]

I agree that if we're going to color-code at all (and I'd be ok with *not* doing so as well... just depends on the art and such, whether that would make sense as a design choice), all the town cards should be the same color.

Red for Mafia and Brown for Werewolves is good... I'm ok with Green for Town (for an overall red-green color scheme), though (largely because of the jeepfest deck) I associate green with third party roles, so Blue for Town and Green for Other would be good too. Purple... not so much. If we go Red-Brown-Green, maybe Black or Grey for third party... or Orange (tigers?).

[mith]

Ok, I've been revisiting the cardlist and tweaking for the Art group to have something to work from. This is what I have at the moment:

Code: Select all

1	Mafia Godfather
4	Mafia Goon
1	Mafia Roleblocker
1	Traitor
1	Alpha Wolf
3	Werewolf
1	Serial Killer
2	Cop
1	One-Shot Cop
1	Doctor
1	Bodyguard
1	Jailkeeper
1	Vigilante
1	One-Shot Vig
1	Roleblocker
1	Tracker
1	Watcher
1	Commuter/Hider
3	Mason
2	Lover
1	Deputy
1	Nurse
1	Supersaint
1	Seer
16	Townie
1	Third Party Blank
2	Blank
	
52	

I'm opening it up once again to suggestions for roles to include. They should be somewhat common and/or something that needs its own card (for example, I've left out Monk, because that role is really only used in Open setups, and the mod could designate them with Lovers or something - Masons & Monks would be a complicated setup to run, anyway). If you have a suggestion, post it here (and include links to a game or two where it has been used, if you want to strengthen your case).

If there is a high demand for the cards and for other roles, we may later do an "expansion" with more unique/unusual things, but in the meantime blanks will be included to allow for other options.

Note that there are two spots left in a 54 card deck (which is almost certainly what we'll be going with). If I've made some glaring omissions, those spots might be filled, but if not I may have a little role design competition, with the winner's role being included as a card.

[mith]

Lovers seems like an unusual card in that you could hand it out as a 'second card' for those players, thereby making it Faction-independent.

I think there's a place for Lovers in this deck as it is (occasionally) used in closed setups, but one of the things I have in mind for an "expansion" is having a few cards focused on split role/alignment. Could include Neighbors (if you get a Neighbor card, you can wake up during the night and "discuss" (by pointing) with the other Neighbors, who are unconfirmed. Could include Lovers which aren't confirmed. For Masons & Monks, you really need to pass out three sets of cards (one with your "regular" role, one telling you if you're a Mason or not, one telling you if you're a Monk or not), unless the mod randomizes the setup pregame and has Mason-Werewolf, Monk-Mafia, and Mason-Monk cards available (and even then, you'd be limited to scum and townies, outside the Masons & Monks). So, something to think about there.

(Lovers is probably the first cut if we need to include several other power roles.)

Bulletproof Townie has been somewhat out-of-favor for a long time, and is partially covered by the Hider. PGO is a possibility. Bomb seems awfully niche.

[mith]

The cards are kinda stalled on the artwork front... I'm open to ideas/moar artists.

We're close on t-shirts, though.

[mith]

All we need is art, really.

[mith]

T-shirt progress!

We've actually had final-draft artwork ready for a while, thanks to Jahudo, but I've been too busy to follow up on things. This seemed as good a time as any to get back on it. First, the design:

Front:


Back:


It's unlikely that we will make significant changes to it at this point, but small suggestions make be taken into consideration. (Of course, we can't please everyone.)

Cost should be somewhere in the $15-$20 range (I'll have to check on shipping) for US residents, shipping will of course be higher elsewhere. What I am going to need to get an idea of soon is:

1. Are you going to be purchasing a t-shirt (or more than one)?
2. Do you have a preference for shirt color? We will likely go with black for a first run, but if there is enough interest in a non-black shirt we may be able to do a second run simultaneously.
3. What size(s) will you be ordering?

I'm not asking for answers in this thread!

Just something to be thinking about. More soon, during IMM...

[mith]

That depends on how many are requested - the company I'm looking at does have that option, but I'm not sure how mixing shirt types would affect the bulk ordering prices.

[mith]

I haven't forgotten about this. Need to get on with the "finding a printer" side of things. I need to add a position to the staff application thread specifically for harrassing me about this until I get on it.

[mith]

Ordering some sample prints is now on my calendar for this week.

[mith]

(I am also considering a limited edition "I waited 7 years and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" option.)

[mith]

To update on this: I've gotten in touch with two screen printing companies (one local to me, though typically with the size of order we're looking at shipping would be free to here), and am waiting to hear back from the local one re: pricing and the other re: samples. Still looking at alternatives, so if you have worked with a t-shirt printing company in the past with good results, let me know.

[mith]

~15 is a reasonable expectation.

Except for the limited edition UberNinja-only authetically katana-sliced shirt, which will sell for 150.

[mith]

Paying for the site is not an issue right now, but our initial t-shirt offering is already designed and I am still looking into printing options - singersinger gave me information about a company she has prior experience with, and I should be getting somewhere with that soon. Goal is to get shirts on bodies before Christmas.

[mith]

<_<

[mith]

I expect to open up pre-orders in the next week or so. Expecting price will be ~$15, shipped (US; a bit more for international). Will start a new thread when we get there.