Newbie 871 - Game Over Town Win

[boberz]

Hi

No lynch seems very silly, particularly now because we want to gather information from a chat on day 1.

I am not a big fan of random vote, because I do not gain information from it, but it tends to happen and allowing it to occur for a bit I do not mind.

Reasoned vote I like, but I don't have much of a reason yet.

---

I would like to ask how much mafia (or close alternative) experience everyone has, as it is a newbie game this is particularly relevant. I have played a lot of face to face mafia but never an online game, I am yet to see how I will adapt.

[boberz]

A random vote is almost inevitable D1, barring suspicious activity from someone, but should be avoided in following days, as more and more information accrues.

I do not understand what you are getting at here? I understand there is usually a random voting stage, where some people choose to throw around apparently random votes, but I would not expect this to last the whole day.

Am I right in saying that you encourage random voting throughout the day, unless a person does something particularly suspicious? In which case I think you are wrong.

[boberz]

Town should never NOT lynch. It is our only way to kill scum and on Day 1 it gets the information ball rolling.

"NEVER", are you sure, or do you just mean never on Day 1? It can be mathmatically advisable to get the information of another night, and lower the probability of a mislynch towards the end. I agree in Day 1 it is stupid, and most of the time it is stupid.

[boberz]

My vote is not random and it is for incognito

vote: incognito

It is based on very very little at the moment, but I will explain.

Incognito

sets a trap to get a wagon on

ether

, although he makes this so obvious it is almost a joke, it certainly would not hook scum, and if it did then it would only be at L-1 with no scum to hammer which they would not want to do anyway, essentially I am saying this whole thing was a pointless sentence. He also FoS:

Patrick

"just because" which again seems pointless. I asked myself why and nearly dismissed it as random voting particularly since he has played with both

ether

and

patrick

before (and according to your wiki enjoyed playing with them).

The reason I did not put it completely down to random voting (which it could well) be was threefold.

1/ I could not see why you mention lurking at all. Lurking is not a scum tell, active lurking might be but we are much too early to discuss this. It takes conversation to somewhere i deem pointless, pointless to me means it is not adding any value, which means it is creating white noise and hindering town.

2/ You try to test ksen and whoever else wants to answers logic/knowledge/ability to read the wiki, I cannot really work out why. To me town would want to help a person who has not understood by explaining said situation, not try and evaluate their effectiveness, possibly exposing them to scum manipulation later. Not that I believe ksen is a bad player, but that is another issue.

3/ You lick my rear end slightly with your last comment, which I read as trying to get an eager newb (which I clearly am) onside, on two other occasions you agree with me but admittedly add value on those, but not much.

I am also keen to hear from ksen again on the no lynch issue.

[boberz]

What about if there were 4 town and 2 scum, ksen. A No-lynch would mean another NK could definately happen without ending the game. This would then enable any PR to have another night to gain info, it would also improve towns probabilities of correctly lynching the next day, in that day some kind of claim would probably occur a good time to get reads (and if PR claim can be verified gives the only solid info the town will ever get).

[boberz]

Ether why is lurking a scum tell? Active lurking is a scum tell no doubt, but lurking as a generic term I don't agree. Particularly in a newbie game where newbs may just not contribute much not wanting to make mistakes and such.

---

I realise I am posting a lot and many of them do not seem to be scumhunting so I now aim to rectify that slightly.

Firstly Patrick my number two: When i questioned ksen i did it in a way that i tried my best to explain very briefly why i thought it might be a good idea to no lynch at some point, I felt incognito did not contribute advice as town should have done, like you did (after my post), just told him he was wrong. He also seemed to be trying to get a feel for how logical/adept at using the wiki ksen (and whoever else answered) is, not necessarily a scumtell but adds weight to whichever read one gets, which for me is more scum than town. By questioning ksen I thought that incognito might be trying to see whether ksen was not following the logic well and could be feeling out a possible manipulation later.

Also Patrick I notice you did not pick me up on claiming that lurking is not a scum tell (which I believe it is not) does this mean you agree with me?

Reading this on preview it sounds as if I am accusing you Patrick, this is not the case.

---

Ether why would the pre game need to take a long time if incognito and patrick were mafia? If they know each other and are both fairly adept they could both adapt to a newbie game without a watertight plan this early. Or have i musunderstood their usual tactics, or the fundamentals of night 0 play.

Surely the pregame would take longer if a more experienced player wanted to do a bit of coaching before any posts so that a change in an inexperienced players posts would not happen.

[boberz]

There are two mafia aligned players, it is in the rules at the top of the thread. I am slightly worried you have not read these, and it makes me wonder how much you have read of anything. Scum would take notice of posts, but I am wandering into WIFOM.

Based purely on the probabilities there are definately situations where it is worth it, so unless your willing to trust the reads of people you have reads on over mathmatics then I do not really think there is an argument. Town do not lose a lynch, they just postpone the lynch until the probabilities are better and the information is greater, I repeat they do not lose a lynch.

Having said that I do not think this is a scum mistake you have made, but the fact there are two obvious mistakes makes me wonder, but as I said this is WIFOM I should not be thinking about it.

[boberz]

There are two mafia aligned players, it is in the rules at the top of the thread. I am slightly worried you have not read these, and it makes me wonder how much you have read of anything. Scum would take notice of posts, but I am wandering into WIFOM.

I haven't been talking about this specific game in the Lynch/No-Lynch discussion. Yes, the GM has told us there are 2 scum in this game. Is that the normal procedure in this forum?

So you don't need to worry about my reading skills. We have obviously been talking past one another.

There is always 2 scum in newbie games, I do not mind you not knowing, but it is in the first posts so you should have read it. I am not convinvced we are talking cross purposes.

Your two errors: claiming no-lynch is never right despite players (not just me) trying to explain why you are wrong, and not reading the original posts properly creating doubt about your concentration.

However your mistakes are not scum ones. I am going to shut up for a bit. I would like to hear back from DarthRandall1138 (who I may call Darth from now on) as well as Yarmond and herd456 (who may become herd).

[boberz]

I have some more thoughts. I am not at all happy with ksen's responses and I do not think his presentation of a misunderstanding between us is accurate. But I do not want to push this further because I fear I may begiin to read scum into it when it is not that tell at all.

I notice both Patrick and Ether do not seem interested in my vote. I like this because not all three of you can be scum, so atleast one of you is trying to help me, I respect that.

Incognito, I was trying to explain in the first part of my accusation that your trap seemed extremely obvious, and more like a trap for newbie town to start believing you more (that would make twice I felt you had tried to set up a later possibility for undue influence)

herd: I am worried about your random vote, and the fact you feel the need to do it now. if you had waded in before any of us said anything that would be fair enough, but there has been proper conversation.

My vote for incognito stands but I am also wary of Ether and Patrick. There are slight reasons, but it is more a worry that two of the three of you only have to convince the other and it becomes a large force. Of course this is no evidence but something that makes me very wary.

[boberz]

Ether as I said, that was not my reason for suspicion, but just a fact that made me amplify anything I get off you three, does that make sense? Because I know you can be dangerous, any slight scum read I get is important, equally if I get a town read on two (or three) of the three of you then I would have to put more weight on that as well. I do not use it as evidence of scumness in itself. The evidence I have is even more sketchy than my stuff on incognito, so there is not point me voicing it really.

My case on incognito is weak, but it is the best one I can muster at the moment, if he was at L-1 or maybe even L-2 I would unvote, dont get the impression I am chasing for his lynch or anything.

Ksen I do not understand what you are chatting about now, you seem to be digging a hole (but not necessarily a scummy one). I think you either do not understand the points some of us have made about the no lynch or are trying to cover up for a previous misunderstanding, it is either a newb town or a clever (pretending to be newb town) scummy (even then only slight) play. I have you at neutral at the moment, I urge you to talk about something other than this discussion. What is your view on Annachie for example?

I agree with Patrick that we should leave the how long did scum take debate, for two reasons. We do not know how long they took although we know it was not that long, we do not really know who they are if we did know (only that if it took a long time experience was probably involved, which it didnt so we cant make this read) I fear this is a red herring discussion, that I realise I have just entered into.

Darth and Annachie I am keen to hear not a direct meta of each other, but perhaps an overview of how you will try to read each other later, or indeed already.

herd, this is more here for my benefit so I do not forget, but I want to know why you random voted, or was there a secret reason in the vote. I accept you have not had time to answer it when I asked earlier this is not me being impatient, just forward thinking. I understand Patrick's view here, but any vote is 1/5 of a lynch so I do not like random votes like that, so I want herd's justification.

I have just re read the recent posts again and I realise that perhaps I am too fearfull of getting misdirected by Ether Patrick and Incog. It is just if I believe two of their reads on the other then they could be scum and the thought will always be in my mind, if I believe the one over the other two (even more idiotic) he could be the scum. If I all three agree then a misread by one undermines brings me back to one of the first two situations (considering all three just read me town i dont know why i said that, but the logic remains). I am hoping me making general musings about how we should be carefull, will make it go away. Just like general musings about ending random voting tend to end it.

I am interested to hear from Yarmond, just because I havent yet.

[boberz]

I should check on the 'tricky half of Pathetric, though.

Incidentally, I didnt get a word of this, so I typed tricky half of pathetric into google and found the game you are chatting about. It does not seem particularly relevant to me. Can you explain what you meant, or is it just a private joke/irrelevant thing.

[boberz]

I only made the random vote because I like to--it's not like I put him at L-2, and the game was still pretty new. Also, like Patrick said, it's not like I made a post with a random vote and no more.

I can accept that as a reason, but I hate it being done.

My only other read at the moment is a slightly protown one on boberz. He seems like he's genuinely trying to help, and also pointed out how he's perhaps being misguided by the IC and SEs--which could, in theory, have been useful to him down the line as an excuse? I don't know, he just strikes me as pro-town.

The reason I keep mentioning it is so that I am aware of it and dont fool for it. Therefore it is actually removed as an excuse if that makes sense. ie if iever blame that then you can say, 'you were well aware of it'.

Do I insinuate from "trying to help" that I am actually hindering. Why? bad reads, too many posts, crap posts, all of the above.

Sorry for two posts in a row.

[boberz]

You think Incognito and Patrick are safe (i understand it is early in the game) is this purely based on meta's and your read based on knowing them. Is there any evidence you can point us to? Equally for either patrick/incog on ether.

[boberz]

I have been clocking in all day to see the response to this, I think there has been enough time for something to happen now so I am not happy. As I say I had a very slight town read on ksen based on the no lynch argument, just because I didnt think scum would push an argument so hard when they were wrong.

The fact that ksen has not said much helpfull but tried to look like a regular poster I don't like but I do not think scum immediately, an experienced player I would think scum.

I do not want to put my vote on him I still think slight town. Have I missed any reasons for your vote or is this a bit of a feeler vote as well.

[boberz]

The only reason I waited was because I thought you were trying to get a reaction out of ksen and herd (i hadnt considered yarmond if i am honest) I had been interested to ask you why since you had done it. (although a post or two yesterday made me expect some kind of vote i couldnt work out where though)

What is different from me not posting a response, to you not offering explanation (although i understand why you might not want to do this).

I am getting a more town read off you however.

Who writes these wiki's?

[boberz]

I did that unexplained voting thing (as you described it), but that was because i got a read from it (or thought i did). Why might it be scummy? honest question here.

I also used the word WIFOM but it was against my own argument, that I then didnt make (reading it back i should havee just deleted that point).

I will take the advice.

I wont take that tell from your wiki that says if you are active and try to get discussion going then you are town. I will do some work for myself if people have any evidence on you.

I am struggling to get a grip on anything here.

Incognito In the words of Terry Tibbs: Talk to Me. What do you make of ksen/herd?

[boberz]

I got that it was satiric, but there must be some basis as to why some think it is scummy does that make sense. If there was no logic (be it false or not) it wouldnt fool anyone, or are you suggesting it would.

I will read you the hard way if pressure comes/I worry that pressure hasnt come when I thought it should. I feel a bit bored just chatting to you ether, but no one else seems to contribute as regularly when I am on.

I still dont really agree on lurking. I think white noise (ie not usefull posts, deliberately so) is much worse than lurking, in newbie games. I do not like the active lurking you rightly point out, I have seen herd twice since your post as well (thanks for saying how to do that).

Do you want to keepp trying to prop up discussion or do you hope that discussions away from ones you instigate will develop at some point. If so can we expect you to post slightly less when this happens.

[boberz]

Darth, Incog has already asked me about the hooking scum thing, and why i found it scummy. Was it not sufficient?

I don't think buddying is what I called it it is not what I think it is. More confidence building, again (by Patrick I think) I have been asked about this already. Was my answer not sufficient?

The point on power roles has already been said.

In fact every point you make has already been made. The only new thing you seem to add is an explanation of you early misunderstanding (which I can accept) and an unsubstatiated neutral suspicion on Patrick.

I do not like that post Darth for such a big one it seems to add very little.

[boberz]

Incog you ask me why I call you out specifically. Two reasons.

My vote is still on you but I am considering moving it, I wanted to hear more from you.

Secondly I had previously asked others to come in on the discussion, and they hadnt. I thought I had more chance with you.

[boberz]

In response to Patrick's first post since my last one. post 107 (how do you do links to posts like you lot do?)

It was I who first mentioned herd's random vote. I merely questioned it, I did not call it scummy. I was a little inquisitive because it came after there was already content, and some proper votes and I wanted to check it was random and why it occured. I was happy with the explanation although I did not like it.

It was (as you point out) Annachie who then used it as part of an accusation. Having said this I cannot find much more on Annachie.

I am more worried about what I considered a fairly contentless post in herd's long post because it was built up so much. I accept he was pushed into saying anything and hence maybe rehashes were all he could muster. But I am not convinced. I would like to hear what herd has to say on this then I may switch and take him to what I think (will check before vote) will be L-2?

[boberz]

I am more encouraged by your last post herd, but you are not out of my sights yet.

I do not like the fact you did not tell us your reasons for voting. There are cases when this is advisable but they are unusual, and ether has already done it once. Ether may I now ask for clarification on that vote in full, unless I have missed it.

I want to know what you are thinking basically herd, I am not convinced I have this properly.

Annachie, I believe Patrick said it is a neutral tell but it used to be a town one. As for the rule I do not really know why small text is banned, you can always make it bigger in notepad; but as it is against he rules it should be obeyed, disobeying of that kind of rule is not a scum tell I dont think.

[boberz]

power role)

How would this possibly be a good idea?

Well, just off of the top of my head it's the perfect opertunity for a doctor to point the finger at someone and say "I think that person is a cop".

How on earth would a doctor know whether there is a cop, let alone who it is. Or have i missed some of this conversation, is that about a hypo situation later.

[boberz]

Thanks ether, I saw that I was just checking I had our complete accusation.

[boberz]

that was meant to be your btw not our, typo.

[boberz]

Sorry to hear about your problems annachie, but 8 kids sounds great fun if a little challenging.

I wonder what can be done to break the deadlock. The post count is ok but I feel we keep treading old ground.

Any news on Yarmond???

[boberz]

I hope that is not true, it sounded truthfull to me and I will asume it is.

I do not like your theory on Yarmond. He is neutral to us all, surely he must be it would appear he is not going to contribute so therefore he will be replaced and we will have to hope that the replacement is more active. We can only have a dead neutral read till then.

We should vote off the most scummy, ie the person we think is most likely to be scum. Do you truly have a slightly town read off everyone other than Yarmond? if not then i think you should vote for that person. This would appear to be another theory you and I disagree on, but again I think I am on the side of conventional wisdom.

Can I ask Patrick ether

and

incog: is bad theory scummy? I do not really think it is but there might be logic i havent heard.

Either way

unvote vote: ksen

(btw this is L-2 I believe, correct me if I am wrong)

He moved from chatting about no lynching, in an unconvincing manner; to not really answering who he thought was scum; to then linking endless games in response to requests; to finally raising concern over annachie's VLA I think fairly unfoundedly. He does all this without doing any scum hunting.

[boberz]

I hope that is not true, it sounded truthfull to me and I will asume it is.

I do not like your theory on Yarmond. He is neutral to us all, surely he must be it would appear he is not going to contribute so therefore he will be replaced and we will have to hope that the replacement is more active. We can only have a dead neutral read till then.

Allowing people to fly under the radar is a good way to help town lose. You may not like my reason for keeping my vote on Yarmond due to his inactivity but I think it is good strategy because in my experience scum try to lay as low as possible and all too often town lets them.

We should vote off the most scummy, ie the person we think is most likely to be scum.

And that's what I'm doing with my vote on Yarmond.

I agree with what incog says on the policy vote. I am essentially arguing that you could not have had anything other than a neutral read on Yarmond at the moment. So unless you have a neutral/town read on everyone else your vote is better placed somewhere else.

Do you truly have a slightly town read off everyone other than Yarmond?

No, and I said as much in the post you responded to. I said I also have a slightly scum feel about Annachie. Why would you ignore that and act as if I hadn't said it?

Now I'm getting a scummy-vibe from you because you seem to consistently miss things I say.

I did not miss that, it was a hypothetical question i knew to be untrue, to try and make you see the logic behind what i was saying. I cannot work out if you have yet. My point is if you have a scummy feel about annachie then you should have voted for him, I was trying to show that your vote on Yarmond was unfounded.

if not then i think you should vote for that person.

Why does it look like you are trying to get me to change my vote from Yarmond?

Because I am. I consider your vote unfounded and ill-thought through.

If you are suggesting I am defending a scum partner then I would be a crap player as scum. It would be idiotic for me to jump to defend an inactive scum partner who is probably getting replaced on the basis of a couple of votes.

This would appear to be another theory you and I disagree on, but again I think I am on the side of conventional wisdom.

Maybe you are. The more involved I get over here the more I'm thinking I have a lot to unlearn from playing over at the other site.

I agree.

Can I ask Patrick ether

and

incog: is bad theory scummy? I do not really think it is but there might be logic i havent heard.

Either way

unvote vote: ksen

(btw this is L-2 I believe, correct me if I am wrong)

He moved from chatting about no lynching, in an unconvincing manner; to not really answering who he thought was scum; to then linking endless games in response to requests; to finally raising concern over annachie's VLA I think fairly unfoundedly. He does all this without doing any scum hunting.

Well, I have answered who I think is most likely to be scum, the links I've provided have been in response to specific requests for such links.

You answered most likely to be scumin an unconvincing manner, first it was one of the three experienced players because of the modding (false) then yarmond for not posting (wrong) and now me. I also say in the quote you are quoting from me that you link in response to requests.

You answer question like that I cannot deny, you fail to add original content. The point you fail to answer is when you have done active scum hunting. ie look for scum signs in people that others have not yet voiced.

The more I read your posts boberz the more you stand out as scum to me for the constant misrepresentations as you've tried to place suspicion on me.

Normally I don't like to vote for someone who's voted for me because people often read it as revenge-voting which can be a scum-tell. However in this case you leave me no choice but to vote for you because I feel you have continually trying to hang suspicion on me by misdirection and misrepresentation.

unvote, vote boberz

I dont agree there have been misrepresentations, give me specific examples and I will try to refute them. Or do you still mean when we were allegedly talking past one another, I still dont believe we were. Obviously there have been simplifications but no deliberate attempts to decieve.

I actually called you more town for most of the game so far. I directed criticism at you for what I (and others) considered bad theory early in the game, also criticism (again not alone) for the Yarmond vote based on the inactive theory. I encouraged you and others to scum hunt on more than one occasion.

The lack of scum hunting, even after being advised to, particularly since you post a fair bit, is worrying and the reason for my vote. You post what I consider (and have noted before) white noise, ie you post nothing relevant to the game, you rehash other peoples reads/tells you chat about theory but do not scum hunt.

Your first example of scum hunting is your vote on me. It does feel very defensive but I would be (am being) defensive after a vote so perhaps a town side factor there, maybe.

---

Incog thank you for your advice on bad theory, I am considering it but encountering circular logic from it in this situation unfortuantly. Can Patrick and Ether verify bad theory as a scum tell or not please?

There is a simple reason why I made him largest wagon, I consider him most scummy.

[boberz]

"Dumb vote", can you explain please. Somehow it has made me more town, before you just thought i was town, now you assert I am town. I dont really understand is what I am saying.

I thought it would be a bit of a pressure vote, but saying it is a pressure vote reduces the pressure associated, I can admit it now because you unvoted. I also stand by what I said about ksen not contributing effectively.

[boberz]

Patrick, with respect to herd's last post that i said i was more happy with. I was happy with a bit of self confession. He admitted he had not been a sharp poster, and he admitted he didnt stimulate activity. Once these have been recognised the player has to act on them, otherwise it changes from what i consider a null/scum tell (i know some of you think it definately scummy) into a definate scum tell. So because he recognised these he forces himself into becoming more active, therefore townish. However if he does not act on this, does not become more active, then he will be very scummy to me NB// he has not posted yet his next one better have some content.

I still dont like the fact he seems to want to be asked the questions, even when I asked him to post some content he said "tell me if you wanted something else" I did not like that at all but gave him the benefit of the doubt. The point is I wanted him to be original, I said the same to ksen who responded by voting for me, perhaps I should be carefull what I wish for.

Patrick a while ago you had a ksen/herd scum theory, is it still on? was it a read on each seperately or was it a joint read on two dodgyish people.

Ether, sorry i still have trouble deciphering what you lot say at times. On your randall vote, i was tempted to reply to this after randall posted, but then thought no, you asked you can have the answer. I think it is poorish.

I think it is clear that first round you three will stay in, and I should stay in. That leaves: annachie, herd, ksen, randall and yarmond (/possible successor). There is pressure on herd and ksen, and people chatting about annachie. We both agree that yarmond is a bad vote atm. So your spreading the pressure onto randall makes it look a bit powerless to me.

I can see your reasons, i object to your timing, I would have let the dust settle and apply pressure in a day or two (real time not game time).

Have noted more has been written since I beganso the last three posts/further thoughts are below:

I realise having read the first part of this post that perhaps i was being selfish in moaning at your timing, I wanted another come back to me from ksen on L-2 or L-1 before the voting changed. But now I see he was gonna duck out till tommorow anyway, that has been his tactic so I am not as viciously against your vote as I was 15 mins ago.

I have a thought brewing but I cant place it yet.

[boberz]

ether, I was tired last night and didnt make much sense. I think towns vote being split three or four ways when one or two people arent voting is bad, it is bad because it means all the votes have little value. At the moment I am not at all worried by the one vote I have (although a touch dubious about why i got it) but if I was at L-1 I would have to make a bigger fight. If scum had to make a bigger fight then they would have to commit to things and make judgements that we could then criticise in later rounds if necessary. I see herd is at L-2 but that happened after my vote had been placed.

The fact that the rest of you thought he was a bit more town is fair enough, I mentioned that I realised my criticism was selfish. I do not see him as townish, but i did have him as slightly town while a lot of you were sceptical.

[boberz]

I have gone from your most scummy to leaning town in about a page (which I spent most;y attacking you), can you explain please. Is it possible you are following the experienced players too much.

[boberz]

ksen is almost making too many mistakes to be scum, I think scum would think more before they speak particularly when they have been caught out a couple of times, does anyone else get this impression?

[boberz]

Doesnt sound like a great place for mafia if I am honest, maybe that was just certain players though I dont want to criticise the whole website.

Anyway ksen you say i tried to lead town. What do you meant? I thought you were town on me early (maybe I have remembered wrongly) and only switched recently, surely if i was trying to lead town that would be scummy. Why would you not mention it at the time?

To the three experienced players: if one of the other experienced players is scum, who is it?

[boberz]

I want to keep asking you questions about each other so I can compare the answers to each question later if i feel the need. I do not want to lose any of you from my sights.

[boberz]

So if you thought i was leading town in the early game, why didnt you mention it in the early game. You choose to mention it more recently. The more you speak the more I worry about your argument breaking down.

NB// This is not a flaw in theory I consider this a flaw in logic and gameplay.

I, for the first time would be willing to lynch if it were ksen.

My question is not to try and create non-reads, it is as much to see what the three of you are thinking. I can see why Ether can be considered town having checked a meta or two, but Patrick and Incog I dont get the same vibe from. Equally I think Ether is good enough to fool us in day 1/2 so all three of you still worry me. But I am not prepared to vote one of you off untill you make an actual mistake, the next day that may be different.

What do we each think Yarmond's successor will make of this game so far, if he reads for the first time before he knows his role?

I think that if he is a good player he will notice that some people have made judgements and will have to explain themselves if they are wrong. Other people have avoided making too many hard judgements, or give themselves a get out clause when they do (I hope most can work out the people I am taling to)

[boberz]

I have an essay in tommorow morning, not yet started and an essay in friday morning not yet started, so if activity is lower dont be suprised. It may make activity more since i am on my laptopt he whole time, we shall see. But a warning in advance.

[boberz]

I have read you as town, but I think you are a good enough player to make me think that. Does that make sense?

I understand you are under no obligation to answer my questions, I do not hold that against you.

I am asking, what do you think an independent player would make of our game so far? (Trying to make everyone take a step back and take a wider overview)

[boberz]

The point on trying to take a step back and consider what the outsider would think is very important. It would allow players that are town who look scummy to notice and try and change, although it obviously had the opposite impact for me.

I refute I asked you to manufacture reasons, I asked you to say which was the most scummy. The two players cannot be exactly the same in your eyes, and my thoughts on the players and how view them is important. I wish to hear what you think about each other so in day 4 when we have to make the right decision choosing between you (hypothetically) I can do that more effectively.

I think you exagerate my extensive read over meta and i did similar to you and patrick (it was done a couple of rl days ago btw and i do not have time to redo it now or find quotes/game links now). A couple of things i noticed, she tended to push minor tells very quickly and hard, in this game she has let a few minor things go. She posted quickly at first and it slowed, to a point where she went three or four days without a post on more than one occasion. She also appeared to pick fights (in a nice way) in a way she hasnt done here. Not conclusive but things I noticed and the reason i am safer on her than you and patrick.

You say in the last two pages i have made you cringe, fair enough. But that is just two events. Firstly my continued criticism of ksen, something I maintain and where my vote will remain. Secondly a question I originally asked quite casually in a line to the experienced players, answered nicely by patrick and objected to by incog and ether.

With you incog. I noticed you have a 100% record as mafia, that scared me a little, not a valid read on you this game. I repeat i do not have a valid read on you this game. I have more here

Windows update just kicked in will continue from here next time im on.

[boberz]

You are correct incog, i did deliberately set up the 'here' pun, sad isnt it. But the windows update was true.

Yes I said that as how i saw her when she was scum.

As I said you exagerate the extent to which i have read these properly, I have maintained throughout that i will do a proper meta if it seems necessary/helpfull later, as it was i had a wandered through some of your old games noticing what i did. I feel you perhaps read too much into all my statements, I dont think about the implications of how they make me look much because my mindset is more on what other people are doing/thinking I shall have to correct this.

---

Any way here...

I also notice that you sometimes seem to attack a weaker player and try to siphon them off; you dont seem to be doing that this time, but i wrote that off as a read because i have doent hat quite a lot (cite me v ksen). I saw from when i read your wiki in the first page that on at least one occasion as scum you have not been pressured in the first day or two, i planned and continue to plan to try and put you under a bit of pressure. As I said neutral read.

Patrick I noticed massive differences between his good and bad games, some of them he made early mistakes and was very obvious. But when I isolate his better games he either wins or he loses because of a logical hole that can only be found towards the end game, I will have to read patrick closely but again no proper read hence neutral read.

These were not proper metas just my impressions. And they were now three days agoish.

---

When you say you cringe at two pages of my posts. But you understand my ksen attack, and you think my explanatory posts have been better at explaining my question. Therefore does that mean you just object to the one or two sentences I used to question you in which case did you exagerate the two pages comment.

NB if this sounded accusatory it wasnt meant to be just a question.

---

In terms of the quote I made about ksen not being scum. My vote will be staying there because i think he has begun to make logical mistakes as well as not contributing good scum hunting, he said a couple of times he doesnt know how, it is my first game as well and I think I have made a fair fist of it, even if not being good occasionally. I think that he has made a lot of mistakes, when i made the quotes i was half way throught the thought proccess. It appeared at the time that he was making too many mistakes, but then after running the thought in my head and thought that after making a couple of mistakes he may deliberately make a few more mistakes to reinforce newbie image. This would be WIFOM so I dissmissed it for the most part. But the quantity of mistakes are a townside factor, but the mistakes individually are a more sizeable scumside factor he is clearly most scum to me.

---

Actually your vote on me may have made you less scummy in my eyes because if you were scum you wouldnt want me to focus on you again because i have been the only person to have any suspicion. But maybe not I will have to think this through.

[boberz]

Sorry incog i missed a couple of you points,

I dont think paranoid is the right word, I am wary because left alone with no questioning you are much more experienced players that could rinse town as scum. Surely you understand that it is no invalid for me to want to focus on you guys a bit more, the others are a bit more readable.

I am from a place called Hockley, which is just outside Southend-onSea, that is in essex (South East of England). Not far from London. Where did you think my accent was

[boberz]

Can I do that tommorow, I have had two days that were practically all nighters because of a couple of submissions I had. I have the answer which is basically i think none of them contribute much to scumhunting (i will elabortate on the extents) but ksen chats crap creating white noise, he has also has been advised more than the others on trying to improve. His mad vote on me may be a factor, but i have to read back because if i remember correctly you and patrick thought that was more scummy than me. I wil give a better answer tomorow (ie ill check my facts and chronology)

[boberz]

Im sorry for the misrepresentation Patrick, as I said i will check the facts tommorow, I would have corrected the mistake myself, apologies I wonder who it was that thought it was scummy, a job for tommorow.

[boberz]

last point: Neither do I btw Patrick, I made that clear in a post to ether on the same subject. This is the second or third time I raise a concern, it gets questioned answered debated, I let it go and then someone else has jumped on it. That will be in the post I plan to make after I have done the laundrette.

[boberz]

I have just sort of finished reading a game with rayforst newbie 837, brilliant game which includes an exaple of a no-lynch situation ( I know that is off topic now)

[boberz]

I want Boberz to elaborate on why he's voting Ksen as opposed to DarthRandal/Herd/Annachie. Do not use the word "mistake" or any synonym of it.

So here goes;

Annachie's last few posts have begun to annoy me actually, i am going to have a massive read of him on tuesday. I feel he dismissed the role hunting too easily, I was not happy with that response. However before his trip away he had not touvhed my scumdar (not highly honed) in fact i look back and see that he opened discussions in a way i like. I actually like his pressure on herd for the random vote but think it could have ended a bit earlier.

Darth, the best of the four. He criticised me when most were calling me town. when he did post he provided a bit more substance, but not much.

Herd on top of the criticism he has from others, i dont like how he jumped on attacking me about the question aftre you three (or at least ether and incog) had already slammed it from me. But he hasnt created as much white noise, he is contentless but he posts his reads (usually copies of toher peoples reads) so we can hold him up on them later.

Ksen white noise white noise, white noise, which makes people lose any important bits, which makes him very scummy in my eytes. This is worse than being contentless, because he is contentless but tries to look like he has content meanwhile conversing with us about other things which is possibly distracting. When asked by different people about who was suspicious I think he has mentioned everyone at some point, he has certainly not said much he can be 100% pinned down on. Even herd did that.

As I mentioned ksen has had a lot of people telling him from the off to improve. All the others have just been told to post more, this has become a homogenous piece of advice that is not the same as the specific stuff given to ksen.

---

Patrick Post 149 I must have misunderstood what you meant I thought that meant you thought the vote on me by ksen was scummy, you disagree fair enough. Same I presume stands for ether in post 145 (explained to me in 147)

That post looked to me like someone scared retaliating, noticing they are doing it and saying they shouldnt but doing it anyway. I read it neutral, i remove that from my argument, it wasnt really there anyway.

---

Now to some other questions that have been made.

Anything to be read into darths replacement? i have at least one thing i dont want to share. But overall it just means he is busy.

Was scum on the wagon, maybe definately on atleast one of three major wagons.

---

Hi Rayfrosy.

[boberz]

Anything to be read into darths replacement? i have at least one thing i dont want to share.

Why would you want to withhold information from town? That seems a scummy move to me but then actually saying you are doing it lowers its scumminess a bit.

There is a genuine reason, I would have mentioned it other than a couple of posts made by someone else, I do not want to.

[boberz]

last point: Neither do I btw Patrick, I made that clear in a post to ether on the same subject. This is the second or third time I raise a concern, it gets questioned answered debated, I let it go and then someone else has jumped on it. That will be in the post I plan to make after I have done the laundrette.

I forgot to deal with this.

When I questioned herds random vote, I dismissed it then annachie mentioned it a fair bit later and apparently is still chatting about it. What to make of it i dont know.

The example in the above quote and I was sure there was another example searching my posts in isolation to find it...

i must be inventing it. When all the deadlines go ill be watching for it again like a hawk

[boberz]

Eventually found it. It was there for 6 posts.

Ok, lets make this more general then, with 9 players in the game, and 3 voteing on one person, What chance do people think that there is at least one scum in on the vote.
The raw probability is the same as any three players being scum, 58%, but this isn't probabliity, this is game play/psychology.

Isn't third on a bandwagon considered a scum tell?

Sort of but not really. Basically whoever hammers gets suspicion, whoever puts to l1 is suspicious. But because scum so often avoid doing these votes that means the l2 vote gets suspicion. Once lots of people think l2 is scumm then they would avoid that. I think people put too much on these things. Obviously it needs to be questioned but not a proper tell in my eyes.

[boberz]

Sorry for multiple posts today, Annachie did you honestly not notice the fact that ksen was on L-2 as I did it I announced that was what I was doing. Can I be rude and ask you to read more carefully in future.

[boberz]

Did you get any reads at aall Tyrone, in 10 pages someone must stick out as more safe, or more scum. What about ksen or herd for example.

[boberz]

Quick reply to your direct questions ether, i may do a proper post later.

I think ksen's posts were white noise, we may be in disagreement I have read them a few times now and i am satisfied with his lack of sybstance; as you say there are a few player without substance.

I see Darth's criticism of me as townish, because no one was doing it and in the early game (as it was) mafia particuarly newish mafia will want to try and fit in a bit more. Having said that he covered himself by saying i was townish anyway, Ill think about him a bit more.

[boberz]

I thought I had a foothold in this game when the herd ksen wagons were going on I was happy I had a read and stuff. In the last three pages I have begun to struggle, I feel we almost lost an oppurtunity there. I read through the second half of this game again and I think it is possible a scum has successfully removed pressure from one or both of them. I am going to explore that by looking closely at voting patterns and statemtn patterns within the voting posts, people are more vulnerable when they are posting i think.

[boberz]

Taking it off both of them would make a partnership much less obvious, does that make sense. It would be risky for someone to just take pressure off one person for fear someone would notice. Btw this does not necessarily mean that that person is definately mafia but i think a scum side idea.

[boberz]

Ill deal with ether and incog when it isnt 2:30 am. Annachie is much easier,

at what point exactly (after which post) did you think my vote was going her way and why, that was not in my head at all. If my vote was going anywhere which it wasnt it was going your way as demonstrated by my post about you four.

She is not included in that list because one of my (and her) main moans has been relative inactivity, that is one thing ether cannot be accused of.

Having said all this i have not written you off as town either ether.

[boberz]

Dont rush quite yet, although i am begining to sense that if a day goes on too long scum can work their way back into a good position, i am aware i have not done a proper post in response to incog and ether, and that more stuff some of it involving me has been raised, I will answer this and hopefully find some more stuff.

Annachie, talk to me, do you think that you have looked more scummy in the first six pages or the second six pages, if you acceot a change what explains it. And just to note, rayfrost is taking a while considering he opted in if that makes sense.

[boberz]

Boberz: what are you struggling to answer, exactly? Are you trying to explain the train of thought you had on the fate of the Herd- and Ksenwagons, or to justify that it's still valid? If it's the latter, have you considered that it isn't?

I look like a lurker I realise, I have played three ultimate games today and it is now midnight, I need a shower. I will do it once that is finished. I have not looked at it since my last putting it off post I am not necessarily stuggling and can certainly give you the logic i had i still believe it. I am sorry it will get done.

Meanwhile yes Tyrope that is bad, please provide info.

Annachie has seemed more scummy to me in the last few pages, I remember my very early notes being very slightly town.

[boberz]

Sorry ether I was trying to find the time to explain my thinking about the ksen/herd wagons and their dissapearence and I will, since it has been a while evaluate whether it is still valid.

---

Question: Why both?

Answer:

Assumption - scum were involved in some way with the pressure mving away from herd and ksen. NB// this may not just be votes moving, but focus as well.

Justification for assumption - firstly i have since admitted that this is not necessarily true and was in part at least just a hunch. However there was pressure which I think was not adequately dealt with I feel to some extent this pressure has gone and especially with ksen seems to have completely dissapeared, I am not convinced town would let this happen, this is now a new reason for me not moving my vote, but I am now considering it.

If scum were in some way involved in the relaxation of pressure on herd or ksen, I argue it would be in their interests to remove it from both. This is so in later game when one was revealed as scum this peron would not look like a partner.

Caveat: Whilst I definately consider this (this game sounds ever more like an eco essay now) a scumside factor it could still be town who do it, because they would not want to incriminate themselves by removing pressure from one person, and remove it from both. I think this is a bad idea for town but could see why they would do it.


In terms of "somebody noticing" that is more with reference to a later period of the game when one is revealed as scum. The whole point I was making is that I think one of them is scum, if neither is scum then my point is completely wrong. I did not try to incriminate incog in this moving of pressure in a scummy way, several people were involved in this moving of pressure. As I said I was to then examine who was to blame if anyone, this can only be done properly once one is revealed as scum but it is usefull to see scenarios now, I would not lynch based on this hypo scenarios but awarenees of them is usefull.

Equally i dont incriminate ether for similar reasons (i mnention this second becaus ei am going through in cronological post order and you were mentioned later)

Is it still valid: it is valid untill both herd and ksen are cleared, it cannot be as effective as I originally believed untill one or other of their roles is found, I accept that my highlighting it was not so effective now. But it is not untrue, and not invalid logic.

Did I miss any specific things levelled at me, it will not be a case of me not reading them just overlooking them for this post???

---

As promised some more new stuff...

Actually this gonna make me sound like a broken record, but ksen on vote count/ vote counter/ name confusion is more white noise and I dont like it, he also gave no info in response to an 'anything to say' question which I dont like. My vote is there for this post still

As some may have sensed from my recent posts Annachie has beguin to look more suspicious but there is nothing he has done that I dont think a bad town player would do.

Ray Frost accusing me on pg 1 seemed fair enough and he was more coherent in his criticism of me than anyone was at the time (easy when reading back I know). However it seemed to take him a very long time to get to page 1, if I was replacing in I would know I have spare time so it confuses me a little but he could just be overeager.

Tyrone cannot be dropping out already can he, if not his dissapearence is strange.

[boberz]

Sorry tyrope isnt dropping out, you can tell it is late, in which case post more about your thoughts.

[boberz]

omg thew scumz are totaly boberz and ray. this is so ez
i met this girl named noah tonight lol get it? like tha ark hahahaha

At all serious? if so how come?

[boberz]

When I first made the statement I made it clear I had not read back and that I planned to.

I have read back (before the long post after incog asked me to clarify) and I disagree on your chronology and understanding. Firstly I put the ksen wagon at L-2 within a few posts you removed your vote to Darth, after that Patrick put L-2 on herd, all on the same page (6). So you broke the ksen wagon by voting darth. You have not at any point voted herd. I do know what happened in that period, I have lost a bit of grasp since but I understand my own point.

Perhaps I am blinded by missing a wagon I thought was good, but I am notconvinced. Since reading back I have stated the logic is not very usefull to us now, when before I thought it would be. I said this in my recent long post.

The plan is not elaborate, clever but not elaborate. It involves taking pressure off your scum partner, to cover it take pressure off another player aswell. It is not a complex play.

I have looked at why the wagons failed and thought I had spoken of them to some extent but am not happy that people are not understanding me. I cant wait for endgame to see if my communication is poor, my logic poor or you scum, or a mixture.

But of course I am defending myself, I have been attacked on the same piece of logic about four or even five times but only by two players. I refuse to go through this again, if you really think I am wrong explain why rather than question my motives.

I am fed up of this argument and unless I feel you actually move the debate forward rather than just say the same things I will just ignore posts on this subject.

[boberz]

Yeah I have seen it before, I am suprised it does not occur in forum games, it seems easier to do it forum games to me.

No, ksen is my top suspect. Now Annachie is second. Herd is third i suppose, but not on the same level as the other two. Both replacements are neutral to me really I cant work it out, I suppose i didnt like darth incredibly so maybe ray a tiny bit scum not much.

More town but not pout of my sight yet. You ether and incog. I had ether down as town completely, but i sense she refused to even try andunderstand me there, so she has dropped to your level, but that is still a town read ish.

[boberz]

I felt throughout this process you and incog had not added anything just continuously asked myself to explain, this was the repitition. I am fed up because i have explained it at least four times now.

Interesting on annachie.

[boberz]

Ether did you read any of what I have posted. I have accepted on at least two occasions that it does not provide me with any info untill i see what ksen and/or herd are. So I cannot read that unless you want me to do seven hypo situations (I do not have time to play seven games of day x mafia that arent even going on yet). I then on both occasions realised that this made my original statement rather useless and as such I should have kept this to myself. I understood this was different to my first post and corrected myself and apologised for it. I am interested in it, but not for the reasons you seem to think I am.

Annachie obviously had nothing to comment on to you ether, nor on my criticism of him, nor anything else going on.

[boberz]

I dont feel I have tunnelvisioned you. In fact during no lynch I on more than one occasion called you town. It was only on about page 4/5 i thought scum. I provided new evidence only on the last page or two to support why my vote is staying where it is. Tunnel vision is more than just keeping your vote on one person and justifying it.

I have also been talking about other people the whole time as well, cite my recent attack on annachie.

My read on Ray frost and Darth is minimal. I have already commented on this btw most recently a couple of posts ago. darth was a little bit scummy to me but there were about 5 people who were a little like that. Ray Frost is taking a long time to catch up considering he voluntarily came into this game, this is obviously amplified since whenever i last said it. I read his only real content full post accusing me as slightly town, but a few people asked me to reconsider so now i am not sure. I thought as I was writing it I was stretching things, but i think it made me town.

[boberz]

Incog, that mod wifom i would put more stock in than you are. The reason i often dont believe wifom is ecause mafia could do either as a double bluff or a triple bluff etc... meaning a read is impossible. But there is no incentive for the mod to forget so I think you are right an oversight, which is less likely to occur with mafia than town.

I just think he wouldnt have taken an unpopular view as scum, and certainly his point about stretching was true I was, he had only posted once. But as I said I have reconsidered it because you and a few others indicated otherwise, that post is neutral to me now i suppose.

[boberz]

I would be ok seeing a RayFrost lynch but I dont think I will be on it.

Lots of annachie to read there, he seems very thoughtlfull, and in the course of thaat discussion he seemed to balance out neutral, but there were some more scummy posts and some more towny posts. It could be scum trying desperately to save himself, or town trying desperately to clear himself.

If Ray is scum i dont think annachie is because of ray's vote this late.

Annachie listed people he would be prepared to lynch. Mine is similar but ksen obv in the lynch bit as is annachie

[boberz]

Let's not worry too much about not lynching yet, because I think a potential herd replacement will extend that, it is the next day around christmas time where I think activity will be lower, I know it will be for me. But as you say annachie doesnt look great atm but there were town like posts there as well.

[boberz]

I think he means that you incog cannot mislead us about certain things in the game, but dont put any stead in this annachie, if incog was scum he would be able to IC us perfectly well.

[boberz]

For that we will need to ask annachie (I agree with you incog)...

[boberz]

Indeed, please do it quickly or ask for more time. I am sure more time will be granted considering there are three replacements, at least two of which are potential lynches.

[boberz]

The more I think about incog's little bit of mod analysis regarding the replacements, the more I think it really does implicate darth and ray. darth had been active given an equal footing yarmond was the much more important replacement having provided nothing.

As well as Ray's more or less silence which many of us have not liked. I am so tempted to switch the vote.

The question I ask myself is: "is that enough" i am really struggling.

I hope to somewhat dispell any ideas that I am just saying this to clear myself of being a scumbuddy of Ray, by raising the point that I could be here. I accept that wont be enough for some of you.

I also accept that I need to make a decision by the end of this post or I will look like i am fishing for how people will take it so I will.

unvote vote Ray Frost

NB// this is now L-1

Decision made, I wonder what people will make of this.

OO I am still wondering whether that is the right thing to do or not.

I suppose this vote also means I have moved on from ksen, he still very high on my target list. Annachie is still there as well.

Tyrope what do you think about my views on ksen, did it look like I was tunnelling him.

What about this post, take you by suprise Annachie?

unvote

[boberz]

It was primarilly what incog said. Showing my intent that this lynch looks like it could be the one. It was also to prevent a premature hammer. Not just a self hammer but any kind of hammer, untill we have more from you Yankee, and I wouldnt mind a bit more from Ray Frost first as well, but dont think I think this is necessary.

Of course I want to distance myself from someone who looks scummy and is apparently a partner for me, this should be no suprise, but this was not the primarty aim of the vote unvote thing.

I feel I have to get involved in this to some extent despite my feeling that there are better lynches this is not a bad one.

However, and something I am not sure why I am saying. There was an element of me wanting to encourage an attempted quick hammer, I was hoping that if I could churn out enough filling that as a scum was scrolling down they might only see the vote and not the rest of the post then hit reply, however I did not churn out enough random stuff so this function dissapeared before I posted. SO whilst a trick was intended it was given up on before the psot went up.

The extra lione was an accident, there is no conspiracy

[boberz]

Nobody is lynching you on day 1 Yankee, not unless ray pulls something immense out of the bag.

As indicated this lynch is acceptable to me but not my favourite but good for a first day. As someone said Ray seems to be playing like he wanted to be th epic civilian who saves his own impending mislynch; yet when he got his pm and saw he was scum he realised he couldnt do much to save it. That being said darth wasnt the highest on my hitlist so i cant say i read it.

[boberz]

I didnt see ether say this, she perhaps incinuated it but by no means told you her day 2 vote neither should she, we have a revelation and night actions to occur before any of us decide our day 2 actions.

[boberz]

10th of december, it is on post 1. I leave on the 10th for an ultimate frisbee tournament of all things. This will mean i may not be here to vote on the day.

But I feel my vote should go somehwere. So I will wait for the post count but I think I will let others do the Ray lynch there appears to be more than enough.

[boberz]

An incog lynch would be something that one of the experienced players would want to do. But maybe a lesser experienced player may do to take away suspicion and remove a good scum hunter. The only person (other than myself) feeding this paranoia as it has been called is anachie, he did this well after me. he was also high on my hit list before day 1 ended. So I am interested in anachie.

I am interested in ksen for the opposite reasons, incog was more safe on ksen so it would be a strange decision to lynch him. ksen may now be safer in my eyes. Obviously there is an element of circular logic in all nk evaluations but that does not make them useless.

[boberz]

a cross post there with us both suspicious of annachie and safer on each other, it is rare we agree this much ksen.

I have no internet access from tommorow morning (london time) till monday (afternoon probs) because of the frisbee tournament i warned of.

[boberz]

why not annachie and herd?

[boberz]

I dont feel the need to explain myself annachie because, the idea of me/ray scum team is obviously not true any more.

But I will do it in a sentence. I wanted to vote ray as i preferred his lynch to a nolynch, however i was not as confident on that lynch as i have been on others so i wanted to let other, more confident people take the l1 and hammer votes. Or was it the trick that you didnt understand if so dont worry as i didnt do it, although apparently i fooled ksen inadvertently.

An attack on me after i (along with others put pressure on you) why? I am not scum i am cleared on everyones list except yours so far.

[boberz]

just to let you know i exist, but literally no sleep has been had since friday night so i am not going to post properly till tomorow.

[boberz]

Before I begin my longish post I want to point out that saying you are trying to put someone under pressure vastly decreases that pressure. I learnt this to my cost in f2f games a while ago.

[boberz]

Three key things I have noticed recently,

Firstly was these alleged pressure votes. eg annachie claiming i was townie but voting me to put pressure on me, that is stupid thing to do and even more stupid if you admit it is just a pressure vote. This is not to say you cant use pressure votes, but only say they were pressure votes after the response.

Secondly annachie you appear to be flitting a little, starting on me at the beginning of the day, now moving to yankee in a page. You did not defend your attack on me adequately, please explain again. This flitting looks a bit too much like scum trying to find weak points to pressure on.

Thirdly yankee is answering questions very well imo, but i want more original stuff, so i invite you yankee to provide a read on something i havent seen yet.

---

One of the big things when we look at the incog lynch is his bit of mod wifom. The reaction to it makes me look town, and should make everyone except me think ether is more town (neutral to me for obvious reasons). It did make tyrope look town but now incogs dead and we know RayFrost is town it makes tyrope look much less towny based on that argument. Tyrope might want to kill incog thinking that some may not think read this into it, in which case ether would seem scummy to me. Agree Tyrope?

Patrick is safest for me (I only say this because inevitably someone will ask me for reads soon).

ksen seems scummy to me still. However has been a much better player and pro town i think, but only doing the obvious still ie defending me seemed pro town but any mafia could do it without hurting their position. I cannot find any evidence, so it is now just gut reaction and the early game not enough so I will call him neutral.

Ether is still definately pro town, but more than one of my theories has included her so for that reason (and one i gave at the end of day 2) she is neutral.

Annachie looks bad lets be honest.

I will post now may have a brainwave over dinner though.

[boberz]

Patrick, give me my cue and I will give the explanation on the quote, it is sound but trivial with respect to ethers townishness elsewhere dont think i am slaughtering her for this, it is again held on an assumption.

Tyrope you seem to provide some evidence that ether is morescummy, but it was not what i was suggesting in that post.

Annachie, several points:

1/ I apologise if i misrepresented you, but me being the most town of all your neutral reads still makes pressuring me for little reason and on an already dead point a bit silly, the rest of my points about your vote still stand.

2/ I explained why i couldnt be bothered to reexplain a dead point. If others want this explained again then ask and i will do it but it is just distracting us, i pulled out of the trick and incog confirmed town explained the other reasons fairly well.

3/ If you think I am confusing then I am sorry. I often just say the conclusions of my thinking without explaining the thought process. Do you want me to retype #497 again, with a paragraph to explain my thought process on each point? I am happy to do it?

4/ My case on you begun the latter third of day 1 not day 2 with ksen, you are not ebing fair here. Each point builds on earlier ones i do not hang my attack on any one point. You do raise a point to say that ksen has been quick to my defence in this day which is interesting, but i was nice to him early on which could explain it.

5/ I caveated my #464 later in #464 again i feel slightly misrepresented. In fact rereading it i accused three people including you in the same sentence, I even explained the logic applied to myself as well. I feel very misrepresented now.
Btw only focussing on stuff that applies to you ignoring the stuff i said about others is very scummy to me.

6/ I am in the process of working out whether your disagreement with me on this is scummy or not.

7/ Why vote in #474 if all you wanted was a better explanation why vote?

---

Have certain people just been nodding and agreeing when i have made complex poorly explained points? if so please dont, i need to be understood or i am just chatting crap to myself.

---

Tyrope, why havent you looked up wifom before. There has been incogs use of the word and the yankee/patrick discussion both important. Are you only focussing on people adressinng you directly?

---

I might have this game sorted in my head if i spend a couple of hours with a notepad tommorow. Watch this space.

[boberz]

No it hadnt. patrick and yankee used it on the page before...

I havent had time to sit down with my notebook. May find time tommorow (off out tonight) annachie sounds better in the last page if people want to know what im thinking.

[boberz]

Patrick, this question is really important, I think I nearly have this game understood. Are you more safe on ether today or yesterday? I understand you are safe on both, so am I on balance.

[boberz]

I ask because I thought yesterday that you seemed less sure of ether and incog than they were of you. I thought there might have been a reason for this. It would appear that i read much too much into this and was mistaken as you are clearly sure now. It was a subtle way of finding out and i have discovered that i made a misread. This has helped me to gauge more than you might expect about your and ethers game. I need to sit down with my notebook and i think i can get this game, as i said earlier i will try tommorow.

[boberz]

Of course we are. I am distracted somewhat by reallife. But if things happen I am here to comment. Why dont you try stimulating proper discussion Yankee?

[boberz]

I need to sit down with my notebook and i think i can get this game, as i said earlier i will try tommorow.

Any luck sitting down with your notebook yet boberz?

will do this evening

[boberz]

That is a much better way of explaining what I was trying to say in one of my points ksen. I have unfortuantly not got round to my notebook. The blasted election in the UK and christmas prep is really eating into my time. Will honestly try asap, but im unlikely to find much more untill i do. Tyrope seems to be trying to play safe but that would not be a bad idea as town tbh (as well as scum obviously) so i dont get much from it. I will give an order based on myimpressions with little evidence more of a gut feeling but i have explained points elsewhere i think

Most Scum

Annachie
Tyrope
Yankee
Ether
ksen
Patrick

Least Scum

This feelse like a definate order to me, not many people very close to each other.

[boberz]

Scrap that, just got out the notebook.

[boberz]

Lack of commitment as a scum tell. I dont agree.

How come as soon as ether and I lose a bit of time/internet access or whatever the game slows. I urge the towny members to push this game forward.

[boberz]

Without wanting to look like a broken record i mentioned i thought yankee was better than some though about 2 pages ago (I dont want that forgotten).

I am less safe on ether than i was yesterday, but i still think town. Patrick is now safe in my eyes. ksen is much better in this day but I dont want to write him off in case he got some kind of advice in the night. Tyrope seems the best kill on paper, but there is something about annachie that seems bad to me.

[boberz]

Yankee that last post was very bad, that sounded like you were delighted with the assesment and trying to force a mislynch on tyrope. That is how i read it anyway?

Good question about ksen though.

Annahie im not risking a mislynh this early, it would not prove your guess about the two of them anyway. many seem to think it is probably you and one of them so the most logical kill is you. Not that im commiting yet.

[boberz]

tyrope, if i was awake enough to count votes you just earnt yourself another one. read carfeully.

[boberz]

sorry yankee tis me that needs to read carefully i retract that.

Meanwhile i will address patrick when im awake.

Basically i am saying that tyrope looks to many most scummy but annachie (who is not far behind in terms of scumminess) is a better kill because we can learn more. I also dont think we have a yankee tyrope pair here meaning i think annachie is almost certainly in a pair. I will elaborate on that last bit later,

[boberz]

i meant to apologise to tyrope there not yankee, you can tell im tired.

[boberz]

I apologised tyrope because i thought you had completely misread and made a massive scumslip. I then threatened to vote you (and would of done if i was awake) but then reread myself realised i was in error. Then I apologised to yankee, no idea why. Then apologised to you for both errors. I was tired. That being said i still am.

Annachie you made a good good post there, but i have seen that move pulled in f2f games a lot so i am not writing you off. I do not have it down to just the three of you. As far as i am concerned ether was very safe then did a couple of dodgy things which i mentioned and has now not been on for a while (with legitimate reason i know) so she is not out of my books. Patrick is a good player and can have fooled us but i dont think so. ksen i have not ruled out either, so tbh i dont have this down as a three way if it was we have more or less won.

[boberz]

Doing my mass reading for this notebook which aint gonna ever finish i dont have the time. i think we might have to annachies. The distracted annachie who makes little effort to contribute original scum huntingy stuff, sometimes overreacts sometimes completely misses or chooses not to respond to things. And the aware annachie who plays very well if hard to read, pulling plays (such as the vote on me) out form nowhere. I think he may be scum because of the assertion of the tyrope yankee partnership, You seem to agree with me on the unlikelyhood of that patrick, i am keen to hear ethers views on whether yankee and tyrope are a likely team.

[boberz]

Tyrope I think your scum. Your reaction to my vote and annachies alleged slip (that wasnt) screams grasping at straws to me.

I will now put you to L-1, if theres a lyncher before ether comes back i will consider you scum.

Vote Tyrope

Do you think it is possible that I am scum with patrick tyrope?

[boberz]

ksen please dont hammer untill ether gets back, and longer. But the l1 did the trick.

My aim there was to put tyrope under pressure. Then at the end of him give him a very unlikely way out (ie me being scum with patrick) if he bit he would have been scummy if he didnt less scummy (obviously depending on how he did it).

As it was he half bit by working me into a possible partnership with yankee, presumably because he wants consistency with his play earlier today. He asks the person to read through his posts. I will do that now in iso, but i suspect this may be to try and delay the inevitable. He is my choice to lynch today I expect.

[boberz]

read 7 pages very quickly, there was a lot in there to read.

post 2 (tyrope in iso) accuses me whilst most cleared me. Does this prove he didnt read well? is he right and everyone else wrong on me?

non commital to a laughable extent on annachie #3 in iso (i had plenty of thoughts on him by then)

changes his view on me very quickly with no attempt at justifying his early attack

he is noncommital on nearly everyone in #3

accuses me of a revenge vote #4, when it was the first proper vote.

in dont get how #4 notes on incog make him a 4.5, if anything his notes had him as scummy. Tyrope is just guessing now!

after all that effort states its not a solid theory. HE IS YET TO CIMMIT To ANYTHIN POST 4 in game, after requests

#6 newbie excuse. (i dont think valid because all but 3 of us are now newbies so why mention it.)

wrong in #10 annachie is good enough to know we werent gonna not-lynch. This is a poor attack and makes me wonder whether it could be a distancing from partner (second time i have thought this)

#12 was i tunnelling or not?

more or less admits to bandwagoning ray post 13/14, not necessarily bad but ... #15 If true, careless. I should have picked up on this earlier.

no value in #16 need reasons (and more or less copies of everyone else anyway.)

if tyrope has read this far i challenge him to tell us his favourite animal

i had forgotten about my #497 but i still believe it and it still fits

#18 to protective as to how it will make him look

I have looked at this from the point of view of thinking he is scum, but even so i think he is scum.

Tyrope's posts have got much shorter.

---

Tyrope, can you point to three instances where you have been overtly pro-town?

I think he is scum, probably with annachie (i have been saying that for a while)

Tyrope to save yourself i advise you to post your reads on everyone with reasoning please.

---

I realise this is long i will bold the three most important points in that mass of writing

[boberz]

yankee im not sure you will be killed tonight whether or not tyrope is scum. They will try to kill off someone definately safe, and that is by no means true. My thinking has honed recently i will give my reads again, reasoning is not something i have been short of so it will just be names

almost certainly scum
Tyropw

probs scum
annachie

maybe scum
yankee tyrope

possible but unlikely scum
ether

suprised if scum
patrick

[boberz]

maybe scum should be ksen there and not tyrope

[boberz]

no it doesnt look good. Can you find one instance of you helping town? a touch easier perhaps.

How exactly do you intend to get out of this mess if you refuse to show how you have helped town. And refuse to now help town upon prompting. The only thing that makes you look like town is a claim or scum hunting that is pro town.

[boberz]

tyrope, do you realise this is a team game?

The only person who need be scared of dying (in quite the way you describe it) is mafia. I would like a second opinion on tyrope, from a player i have as safish

[boberz]

I'm gonna post again, cos im quite enjoying this.

Having read today again, annachie looks a bit better, but still makes sense as a tyrope partner. All i would say is that i think annachie is a better player than to have a vote on the same player with tyrope with no one else voting, if they are scum. But since their partnership has been pointed out it would be dangerous for either to move their vote, of course if they were partners tyrope could have moved his vote and confused me more, but he cant do that now because i have mentioned it

---

sorry as you may have gathered you have caught me mid thought process

---

ksen has been safer this day to an immense degree. talk to me, i need people to bounce off, or i start monologuing (exhibit a here)

patrick i just had a scum factor on you for the first time in a long time, but the fact i forgot it means it wasnt massive, but ill find it.

ether, how did the exam go? will we hear from you more after christmas?

yankee i read you again in iso throughout the whole game. You could well be scum.

---

To the town folk out there. I am going to call you naughty. Patrick and I asserted that we couldnt see a yankee tyrope team. Can any of you tell me why we might say this. Neither of us explained, and we should have been challenged, we werent.

Actually my annachie vote theory is wrong, ether indicated suspicion on yankee yesterday justifying the vote and since there were only three suspects at that time annachie could have got away with a tyrope vote.

I notice tyrope you promised me reads on everyone with reasoning, and in your next post decided that it was irrelevant. ludicrous.

btw, getting you to post your favourite animal was me trying to assess how worried you were about my attack, the answer was very. I did notice that you picked up on three random points in my post, rather than the three i highlighted or even better all of them. ludicrous

[boberz]

No lynch does not make sense now i dont think. we are not going to find out much from that i suspect.

patrick, yeah i meant his last few posts.

unvote

[boberz]

No

[boberz]

Merry christmas all. I think annachie's no lynch comment was silly (for both scum and mafia) since we had a long discussion about it and it is one of the worst times for it. Is it scummy im not sure?

[boberz]

He was in a corner with my vote on him he refused to either claim or give reads (a very very bad sign by the way tyrope) the only way we were going to move on was to give him some wriggle room. This of course leaves my vote free for now, I wont put it anywhere untill i see ether post. I thought it was obvious that i had exhausted what was achieved with my vote and no hammer should have come (as it didnt) untill after the season. I am suprised this needed an explanation if im honest.

I have stopped explaining a lot of what I am doing, because all info is going to scum now but some of town is missing.

If ether comes back she is town certainly i think too much of a break for mafia. I could be refuted on that.

Yankee is not good at making himself look town, but when i read in iso i saw that there was the odd good post. I am gonna reread herd now.

[boberz]

Can people remind me whether they were town on herd or scum and when they decided this please.

I have read back and now have a slight town read which i didnt have before.

[boberz]

I meant more specifically if you look at the p[layers still tuned in, ie yankee, tyrope and annachie was a hot contributor for a while i think probably two of them are scum 75% on that now. Indeed I had guessed you were bad on him i wondered if you had been exagerating your feelings for effect. I look now and it is largely gut, he feels like he was rfeally trying to help. I feel similarly on him as I did ray, and i was right.

He was wrong on stuff, and he was largely repeating stuff people had already said and bringin up dead points. ALl of which is scummy, but is also stuff i noticed i nearly (in some cases did) fall into. I think it might be because of the live game experience which he had as well.

No doubt someone may be thinking i am now defending yankee for no reason and trying to support him as a scum buddy. Stop thinking it if you are, i was ray's buddy at the end of the last day.

Essentially herd was crap but his very last post, where he defends me is very towny, he would ahve been delighted to have me back on his radar if he was scum.

He is distracted, evidence being starkmoons bday and annachie's wife, scum have to concentrate.

His busy excuse may have been proven right by his absence, but incog's wifom thingy still stands.


I am scraping the bottom of the barrel i have just reliedon my view of him being scummy and not thought to check it untill now.

[boberz]

annachie and tyrope i swear. when annachie said something along the lines of not wanting to say any more untill the lynch alarm bells rang. He can see tyrope is going, doesnt want to be too close or too far away from that lynch, but without it being tooo obvious. The comment makes it look like annachie is close to the decision but in actual fact makes him far enough away to adapt his play after the night time.

I think there is value in what we think the night kills would be now. So if annachie is the sole remaining scum I think patrick will be targeted. He and I are safest, but he is better at scum hunting he is obvious one to go.

[boberz]

there was a reference to starkmoons birthday in one of his posts, check for yourself, there is only 2 pages of iso it isnt hard to find.

[boberz]

There isnt much value in it patrick, i wanted to see how annachie (and others) responded to my comment. I picked up something from it.

I was also trying to look for more discussion. It worked.

Tbh I was just doing what i wanted, i was the only one playing the game properly, everyone else (except you patrick) was just responding to points I made.

Where is ether???

[boberz]

ether please come back i want to lynch now we are stagnating.

i have been thinking for a while that i might prefer an annachie lynch today it would make tommorow easier whatever the reveal. I have one or two more points up my sleeve, maybe later, maybe.

So

vote annachie

[boberz]

I am suprised you still think I am in any pair to be honest. What you say is surely to basic an error for me to fall into. I have been pretty dstrong on tyrope to a point of forcing him to be the lynch instead of you.

Folllow your logic through, if annachie then flipped town we would ahve a situation where i was chasing i scum where i had no idea where. If i find annachie is town now , I can begin to realign my thinking earlier. Maybe your right though, I am also happy with a tyrope lynch.

Your post might look scummy though if annachie scum and not tyrope. But hey ho we will se in time. I think your right on ether now it has been too long. Tis for others to decide.

[boberz]

Ok, so we're stagnating and currently sitting at a 2-2-2 votecount. I could settle for an Annachie lynch, as I don't really have a good pairings based argument for killing Tyrope first, but Tyrope still reads scummier to me. I wouldn't support a Yankee lynch. Ether needs to place a vote;

mod

should prod her on aim if needed. I'd do it myself but I'm not sure it's allowed.

boberz, are you thinking Yankee/Annachie is more likely than Yankee/Tyrope? I'm not sure which I'd put higher, maybe hampered by the fact that I don't see either as likely.

Ether's silence has troubled me, not even an explanatory/apology post. If there was a jester i would say it was her. As it is she worries me, I may read her in iso just in case.

Yankee annachie is mor likely than yankee tyrope, but I agree that both are unlikely. NOT IMPOSSIBLE. I also think that if annachie is scum ksen will not be, I dont think that is a partnership, what do you think of that. To be honest Tyrope and anachie are the only lynches I will go for.

[boberz]

Patrick I have an idea why ether might be quiet, do you have an idea you would rather not share?

[boberz]

You have misunderstood and exposed yourself as scum as a result there tyrope.

We were saying we felt both were unlikely but trying to discover which was the most likely to help us decide between you and annachie. Both of us have now said we would not be comfortable with yankee this time.

You expose yourself as scum by the desperation to get others killed. If you were town you would have fullfilled both my requests (to claim, and to give detailed reads) and would not mind being lynched so much. I have already explained that it was a team game and you seemed to laugh it off. If you are on my team buck up, as it is your not.

Patrick, I think tyrope must be scum icannot forsee any other corse. However I would rather kill annachie now than in a hypothetical later round where we must get it right. We can kill tyrope tommorow easily enough.

Ether, come back now.

[boberz]

ksen yankee, out of you two, who would rather swap their vote. Even if patrick and I get on the same wagon it needs another. I do not fancy getting a replacement for ether and then have people requesting extra time to read etc.

[boberz]

it would have been a better move for town, if he had said, something along the lines of: 'I still prefer yankee but can accept the arguments for tyrope as the next best lynch', I didnt like it as it stood.

Im reluctant to hammer because i dont want to have to choose between annachie yankee and ether.

Ether often lurks when she is scum (we discovered this with meta, and incogs description now confirmed earlier) but surely this is extreme.

Ether I would really encourage you to speak.

Mod: can we have a replacement please?

[boberz]

Contrary to the above I will

vote Tyrope

I am sure he is scum but think it will make tommorow harder.

I might get told off by Patrick for this but I am gonna give some advice.

If there is a cop please check annachie.

If there is a doc please save patrick or myself.

[boberz]

Why?

[boberz]

Ether is active, I know what I think is happening here.

Ether post please, I truly can sort this pout if you post.

Essentially I am now choosing between: Patrick, ksen, annachie and we need to get two of them.

This does presume that there was an attempted nk in the night.

Did anyone other than patrick latch on to what I tried to say a couple of times yesterday?

---

ksen, I thought the incog lynch was a safeside factor for him. But this is negated if either patrick or ether are scum. The lack of pressure on ksen is the fault of everyone except ether and I. The only person that is a scumside factor for is patrick.

Patrick, if I search I can find loads of things, most importantly one in the beggining of day 2. As I say I can stretch to find loads but that would be unfair. He never asked me to explain an important point on incog's mod wifom. I think he is scum because of some night analysis I have.

Annachie, most scummy for ages in my book his vote to make it l1 is bad. He is scum in my opinion. But I said that about Tyrope.

---

I think it is Patrick and Annachie

It could be both Annachie and ksen or patrick and ksen. I would be suprised at patrick and ksen.

---

Annachie, why was my comment bad at the end of the day. It looked like it achieved its aim to me.

[boberz]

Of course Patrick and Ether are good enough to be scum together and have me completely fooled. I dont want to go down that route again but possible.

Interestingly it toook incog a very long time to clear patrick he is is a posssible dont think incog asserted his innocence strongly.

I expect ether to turn up soon and converse again....

For the time being, the lynch I am most comfortable without ether's input is Patrick

so

vote patrick

[boberz]

It is maybe time to consider a no-lynch but not yet, we need the discussion of today, and definately ether back in the conversation.

Iam safer on yankee cos I think I know what is going on.

I give ether 24 hours from now to say something, then I will reveal my theory including all the stuff i was coy about yesterday.

That being said, help me out ksen. Do we have a roleblocker in this game?

[boberz]

You wouldn't definately know if you were cop. Do you think that a no kill in the night didnt occur. The only person that could know that is scum. Have I caught you out?

[boberz]

I can think of a couple of benefits.

No-kill isnt remote at all, it happens in games a fair amount. One key reason it might be done is to make you presume there is a doc, or to convince a doc they have been successfull.

Why do you say it is remote?

Are you a doc? or a civillian then?

[boberz]

IT IS DEFINATELY WORTH CONSIDERING

Tbh you saying it is not a subtle claim doesnt mean it's not, not that you are necessarily a doc.

Once I know that ether is back, and she had better come back, I would like some kind of mass claim. That would include doc out at some point if they exist. The quicker this happens the better giving patrick less time to come up with a fake claim, unless he has already concocted one for his scum partner.

Yeah, particularly if there is a cop I want them out, if they have checked two different people that arent me, as they should have done we are odds on (massively) to win.

What do you make of a mass claim yankee?

[boberz]

My vote makes perfect sense and you know it.

Mistake on first point, I thought you had not given a read on him in the first couple of pages of that day, you had. Noone else did btw. If you hadnt it would have made you scummy because you should (and I now know did) have commented and agreed/disagreed. Ether and I both explained why we were safer.

We had a similar discussion day 1, were you under the impression I agreed with you then?

I am not talking about his kill, his idea about herd being scum cos he was replaced quicker. And you asked me to not explain because you wanted tyrope to, you never came back to me despite promising to. However i to was distracted by tyrope's scummy behaviour at that point. Ill give you that on the benefit of doubt, just.

Your high on my list now, who's your partner? annachie? you were insistent tyrope was the better lynch.

I did look back at his posts (I did everyone in iso and all the pages, the snow here and it being christmas holiday means my diary is empty), he made a point of not clearing you for a long time, but you are right in saying he cleared you in the end. He was cautious over you, and considering how pushy i was being on the issue he had ample oppourtunity.

Not because he was killed night 1, that could have been almost anyone as i said the next day.

Ill give you unlikely, but its worth consideration.

You a doc patrick, or plain towny?




Ash brown nosing
Compassionate killing...

[boberz]

Ignore last two points there not meant for your eyes, but are there now. Doubt you'll understand anyway

[boberz]

It is entirely at patrick, i refute his post point by poiunt basically. But i expect everyone to read it.

On the annachie partnership thing i was just annoying him basically i was only semi serious, and the reason i am not attacking you is because i think your safe.

He isnt a cop, because he supports a cop claim but didnt claim. He could be, I think is, mafia rolblocker, or goon but i dont expect him to admit it.

[boberz]

Sorry not herd, darth. I forgot who replaced who momentarily point stands.

I cannot do that simple pair analysis any more patrick. We have to lynch correctly, I do not want just a 66% accuracy I want better, so I am going to investigate, see what I think and carry on. Your reads please Patrick?

I am implying some suspicion on you because incog cleared you a lot later than he did ether. But it was not my main point as is still not.

I still encourage claims. btw, plain old townie for me as well yankee.

Yoiu can dig up the games if you want but it wont help you much I have much larger points.

I wasnt really trying to accuse you based on killing tyrope i hammered him; just trying to annoy you. But the failure to switch to annachie might count against you if annachie is scum, or indeed against him if you are scum. Which you are of course.

To work a good claim it takes time, as you know patrick. I will be scrutinising all claims.

To repeat I encourage claims. What are you annachie.

May as well have ether as well. What are you?

[boberz]

The clearing of tyrope based on what you say, implicitly put pressure on the darth player spot (as either scum or a power role) but who it was doesnt matter, it is our responses to that which i have been looking at.

Tis not a disgusting reason for suspicion, i place a lot of importance on incog. He was right on tyrope he was right on me. He was wrong on ray. He is a good player confirmed town. He cleared you much later an not as forcefully. You posting the smae thing at the same time means nothing to me.

If Yankee is scum then ether must be scum with him for me (does not work vice versa). But I dont think its likely.

Patrick annachie is most likely for me.

Do you still think i am suspicous yankee?

[boberz]

Why?

[boberz]

(that was to you ksen)

now to annachie, why is what i said at the end of day 2 worthy of me getting told off?

[boberz]

1/ But you assure me there is a doc, if this is true the cop could come out and be saved by doc in the night allowing two good views, and all info available in case something went wrong. It will in this case be good to no-lynch.

2/ This is true if there is no cop, so half right i guess.

I suggest we can't move forward without a claim from everyone.

I dont see the reason to delay this untill after ether comments really, so long as we get her to claiom as well. I am confident she will be on at some point.


Fetu

[boberz]

to patrick: no it isnt and you know it. Why come back so aggresively, you are one of three. and have 1 vote.

Do some scumhunting man. It aint me and im the only person you are really conversing with.

[boberz]

I was not attacking you just to annoy you, but that was a part of it. I did have a much better reply but us arguing is counterproductive. But I can return to this and be right later instead.

Ether you are normally surfing about now I think, care to comment, you dont have to claim.

[boberz]

(that was to you ksen)

now to annachie, why is what i said at the end of day 2 worthy of me getting told off?

Since you led off with ~"Patrick will probably tell me off for this but" or similar, you already know.

I want you to tell me, I dont think you know. I just think you were scared of possibly being checked.

Meanwhile, I agree with patrick that you need to tell us what you are thinking

[boberz]

Ether, under 4 hours till i just say everything i think.

[boberz]

INteresting, why would this happen. I have a theory.
Patrick can you shed any lighht on this. Is she unwell, or busy or anything else.

I cant see how she could be scum she would have come back by now. This is so easy, I want the replacement to claim straightaway please.

[boberz]

I think we are on the same wavlength there, in which case I will simply apologise to you Patrick for going in hard and possibly offending you last night.

Why would she pick up prods if she was flaking, and she was hitting it so hard in day 1.

[boberz]

You were told that they are picked randomly, why did you pick incog???

You shouldnt hate being outed this early, it is clear that a cop claim was the best thing to happen.

Did you try to tell us who you were gonna check before the night time on either night, if so where. If you are right, who are the most likely scum out of annachie ether patrick and me i suppose.

It is the obvious fakeclaim to make. But it doesnt mean it is wrong.

[boberz]

yankee dont, it may be that there is no cop so dont wait for a counter claim necessarily.

Patrick what do you think about this claim considering what we had thought (still think?) yesterday.

[boberz]

by the way did anyone else pick up on what i was thinking yesterday in terms of a potential cop and check?

[boberz]

I've upped aggresion because i can afford to and i think ive got this. But you claiming wasnt one of them.

Why did you pick incog SINCE you were told it was random.

You being out, if you are a cop (you may be, i am still assessing) means we are in a very very strong position. We need that replacement of course.

Fair enough about the hints, but it obviously makes it harder to assess you.

Not Patrick and Ether?

[boberz]

btw if you didnt want to claim you should have just claimed townie, as patrick suggested a cop might do, not that i think the cop should for the reasons yankee stated.

I want an ether replacement to claim as soon as they arrive please, (incase people are reading this wondering whether to play)

[boberz]

Annachie what do you think ether is/was?

[boberz]

What worries me most is that ksen's claim is possible but was the obvious fake claim to make. He shouldnt have checked incog just idiotic, but if ksen is safe i found out he was stubborn and rubbish in day 1.

You are also right to say that mafia knows there is a doc if they tried to kill, and suspected there was one if there was a no kill. We need to see ether's spot claim before we can evaluate this properly.

I think that fake claim would not have had to be masterminded by a particularly good player but any other fake claim may have been, a point in your favour patrick. But a point against you ksen.

Basically because i said ksen and annachie very quickly i lean that way. Also some may remember a theory i had about scum releasing pressure on ksen and herd, tis patrick and ether (to a lesser extent) i attribute to this (only counts if yankee is town i 90.57% cetain he is) Patrick also was feeling me out about that point rather than arguing it.

So my list before the ether claims, probability (of being scum) analysis:
dont look good for you ksen, but i wouldnt worry, the ether claim will probably help you out.

Yankee - 9.43
Patrick - 49.03
Ether - 24.51
Annachie - 49.03
ksen - 66%
boberz - 0%

If no one else speaks ever again i favour a no-lynch.

[boberz]

unvote vote ksen

i dont understand if ksen is the cop why yankee wasnt his least scummy at the beginning of today.

ksen if you unclaim now, and tell me why you fake claimed i can believe you, I thought about doing that myself. You need to tell me why quickly though.

[boberz]

@ksen Rubbish excuse try again...
(are you defo cop, last chance to pull out, that wont make you necessarily scummy if you have a reason)

@patrick I had annachie and ksen from day 1 on seperate reads and on reaction to me attacking ksen, i have quotes to prove some of this but lets wait for ethers claim. Also i suspect yankee may be claer for a seperate read, based on questioning day 1, day 2 actions and day 3 his first post sounded genuine to me (in fact so have all his today). I also have some night analysis but that is just me guessing what others would think, as I say wait for ether. I may be wrong there of course.

Can you explain 'gambit' please? from what i know of it, in this situation would be attached to much too much wifom for me to think about, but i misunderstand it a bit.

I wouldnt be too quick to believe ksen, it is not the best fake claim in the world. A better one would have been perhaps claiming he was role blocked second night or anything like that, this seems to crude. That said don't think i am rubbishing him, this could be true.

good luck in the tournament, hope you win.

[boberz]

After reading the first few posts for D3, I'm leaning towards Ksen claim being false.

Not surprising since I voted for you yesterday and am still voting for you today.

that is a scummy post my friend.

[boberz]

dont give him towny points for that, i wasnt exactly subtle upon thinking you were safe was I, it was a very easy claim for him to make.

ksen to clarify I think there are three outstanding questions on your claim:

1/ Why was yankee not your most safe today

2/ Why did you save incog, considering you claimed that you did based on logic that people had already showed you was wrong?

3/ Why does the fact you are voting for annachie mean he doesnt have a right to dismiss your claim.

[boberz]

To clarify:

despite knowing 100% yankee was safe, you said that patrick and me were safer than him?

and

on night 1 despite having been personally assured that role selection is random you chose to inspect incog (one of the safest in the game) because he was an IC, which made him inherently scummy to you?

and

you now refuse to add any more to your thinking on any of these things because of moaning about being a newbie.

---

Patrick you are a brillinat player and I thought you were safe, even through my random attack period, but i fear the inadequacy of your scum partner has forced me to believe that you are scum with him. I plan to let ether's spot claim, assuming something mad doesnt happen there I plan to no lynch, then the next day i expect town to have worked it all out.

---

I am going to say bravo to patrick for making me safe on ksen, i never justified it for myself just blindly followed him.

[boberz]

Annachie you thought ether was cop or doc? and from when? physically show me the post/s

annachie is your whole post assuming there is a cop or are you more sure than me on ether?

a false cop claim calling a safe person mafia would work well if they were sure they could get the lynch, ie if they knew there was no other cop. It forces the doc (presuming they knew there was a doc) into calling it right. It would have been a better fake claim, as would have claiming a yankee night1 and a roleblock night2. I think a mafia partner has deliberately screwed over ksen in an attempt to save themselves, i migh be wrong.

annachie are you accusing yankee of being scum, because ksen cleared him?

[boberz]

??? i apologise if i attacked you too harshly there. If its other reasons then fair enough.

[boberz]

Basically I am going to make this game move forward.

I am going to claim cop for ether, because that is what i think the spot is and with holes being exposed in ksen's claim it is ever more possible.

I think she checked Yankee and got a safe result.

The reason I think this is because she said she was PROBABLY going to go in hard on yankee on day 2, she then subtly eliminated him from her reads, ie suggested that it wasnt yankee and tyrope, reason giving they were bickering (they werent bickering much really) nobody seemed to check this other than me.

i think she was probably role blocked this night which would tell me there is a doc, maybe yankee? or maybe patrick? I think this because i think ether might have made one or two posts telling us what she had done otherwise, like she did on day 2.

Basically i have noticed lots of paralells with f2f games. Firstly compassionate killing, incog seemed genuinely pleased to have time to revise, I sense his friends (Patrick) may have chosen to kill him rather than ether for that reason. I also think ether may have deliberately not told us what was going on because she knows what is going on and is interested in the game wihthout her knowledge.

---

Annachie's replace out is a scumside factor for me for two reasons. a/ i notice he was reading a thread suggesting replacements hindered town and can help mafia b/ my question 'was your whole post assuming there is a cop?' was an attempt to see how there not being a cope affected his reads, why not tell me.

Why replace out hours after posting a perfectly good post? I wonder

---

Patrick did i cover everything in ether being cop, she wasnt necessarily role blocked i just sensed she might have been. Annachie patrick would have been a great partnership here btw, and annachie suggesting he guessed ether was cop is an attempt to distract us away from patrick??? un.ikley but possible.

oo mafia is such fun.

[boberz]

i agree that i should have delayed it patrick, and did for ages, I was just fed up of the game having moved nowhere. But you are right i was impatient. If it is yankee and ksen i dont know why ksn would be the one claiming, i would have made yankee claim but hey ho.

Annachie does seem to have overreacted a tad, it hasnt made it untenable, it is just metagaiming.


Hi evil, what is your role?

[boberz]

yankee thoughts on a nolynch?

[boberz]

we will gain a better probability if we lynch tommorow with one less town alligned player to get wrong., you never know more info could become of the night. We will not lose a lynch. If we lynch wrongly today we have lost, and if we lynch wrongly tommorow we have lost.

[boberz]

Yankee i dont think you will be dead in the night, if i remember correctly you said this before last night as well. You are safe but that doesnt always define the kill. Even if you did die, if that helps town you should be pleased for it to happen, this is a team game.

Not all of the town would have to agree, a scum could be voting for their partner, you are voting ksen for example

Evilgorillaz can you claim please? the quicker the better, the less we think your having to think.

[boberz]

Nobody here thinks your the cop ksen. Evil please claim, dont listen to him annachie was the most scummy spot to most of us.

[boberz]

I think discussion tends to help town, i admit i have been very aggresive in forcing people out i still think it was the best thing, in fact the . I am not unvoting i think ksen is scum ergo i vote for him.

As I say annachie was a very scummy spot for me so i am not eager to follow your advice necessarily zorb.

---
as i say this is a game that has many parralels with f2f game si have played, i obviously cant link them.

If i am wrong i have learnt a lesson but i truly think i am right, i agree btw that a nolynch is favourable in those circumstances.

[boberz]

it takes 4 to lynch i believe yankee.

[boberz]

Day 3!

Yankee(herd456)
boberz
Annachie
ksen
Ether (SE)
Patrick (SE)

With 6 alive it is 4 to lynch...

Have at it! and good luck everyone.

(1/2) + 1, is how it works, if i put him at l2 i would have said.

[boberz]

I acknowledge what you say is a possibility Yankee, in fact a vaguely remember someone else saying it before we even did any kind of claim. I think to many people completely wrote off the no-NK possibility though, so that is why i dont put as much stead in it as you.

[boberz]

Nobody is going to accept that ksen is cop whatever happens. I still think, particularly as it is a newbie game, that we should be discussing stuff. That said i wouldnt mind the discussion going somewhere other than claiming/tactics.

So, as I dont expect zorb or patrick to participate (the perils of conventional wisdom) I wonder what you think yankee about me, am i safe and if so why? just because some people said it in day 1?

[boberz]

caught up yet...

[boberz]

Just claim, i dont car eif you know whats going on or not, if you are town alligned you should just claim and let us work it out.

[boberz]

If you commit to a game of mafia, you should be able to read 7 pages in 3 days, cmon!!!

[boberz]

It is easy to see why so many people end up flaking isnt it, logging in every day to find nothing has happened is extremely tedious. This hasnt just happened during the mass claim thing which isnt necessarily a claim thing anyway cos most of us have done it, and ether was safe to most of us anyway, and as Patrick said (and i have no reason to disbelieve it) it is a neutral tell, so she hasnt changed much.

[boberz]

My plan is to kill you.

[boberz]

I wish I had stuck to my guns then, we would be winning now.

[boberz]

We wouldnt be in the exact hole would we, either your cop (your not) or your scum, either way you are not a towny that we have lynched every time so far.

[boberz]

This i getting silly it really is.

[boberz]

I wouldnt mind that lol, I am suprised at evil really he turned up told us he was gonna read up, more or less read up said he would comment in a couple of days then dissapears off the face of the earth. Why do that?

[boberz]

vote nolynch

I was always gonna do it at some point, for the record. I think it is ksen and patrick, it might be ksen and annachie

[boberz]

Yeah then read the game, either in the night if a no lynch is best, or from then if we need discussion.

[boberz]

we have no lynched i think... so no need. I may be wrong. TBH i have kind of given up on this game for a while.

Well done though on the quick replacement starkmoon!

[boberz]

Cheers for the praise and advice guys. On my eratic day 3 play. As I said to incog I knew it was probably wrong to force the claim, and certainly wrong to just shout stuff at people in an angry ill thought through manner. I apologise. I was, as incog guessed a bit fed up at the inactivity of people, I was very busy for a period but made an effort to post regularly even so (btw ksen, that if we're the only originals left was a shockingly scummy post btw).

A couple of things:

my fakeclaim towny is reallly common in f2f games i play (in fact it is assumed that anyone claiming towny could be almost anything) so i didnt think it was a big deal. I wont do it again.

Compassionate killing happens a lot, but maybe that is because i play with close mates.

I saved ether btw on every night, except when ksen claimed cop, just in case. Another thing, i expected to be able to save myself when i reread the rules that night i was annoyed. I thought everyone knew i was doc anyway really.

And Patrick i kind of had you and ksen as my stronges tin game, but annachie was seriously close. I kept swapping him into partnerships. My original accusations on you patrick was all just testing out my town read on you, then you reacted so strongly and didnt respond to my best point (i forget it now) and i thought scum.

[boberz]

it was true, so i got a tad lucky then. That said good game all and thanx everyone.

[boberz]

One last thing.

Annachie you promised to explain exactly why you quit this game. Can you do this, because it really screwed with me.