Mini 876 - Tree Stump II [Day None] (Abandoned)

[Sudo_Nym]

/confirm

[Sudo_Nym]

I don't either, but I assume the stump before lynch is so that we can keep talking and lynch someone else without giving scum a NK, right? Seems pretty obvious, but I've learned not to take stuff for granted, especially in odder setups.

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vote chinaman

If the quotes Tjoe has mean anything, you're either a lumberjack or a crossdresser. I'm not sure I'm comfortable either way...

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b) This game is effectively halfway between a vanilla 9:3 and a nightless 9:3. Vanilla 9:3 is obviously hugely scum-favouring. Nightless 9:3, town needs three scum lynches, scum need 6, 7, or 8, mislynches- Depending on the number of scum who die. That's balanced, probably a little town-favouring.

Here, the total number of scum town need to lynch is the same, the number of town the scum need to get killed is the same as the nightless one, minus one for every dead scum because they get a nightkill. That's six mislynches, however many scum die.

Town wins if it lynches correctly more than one-third of the time- ie, have a ratio better than one dead scum for every two dead town. The scum proportion is 25%. Assuming random lynches, the town usually loses. The town has no power roles. So, no, the setup is actually scum-favouring.

Set against that is the possibility that the stumps help the town. Well, last time, they didn't until Glork replaced in. SensFan has changed the rules for this one to disallow replacement of flaked stumps and allow continuous scumtalk, both of which are advantageous to the scum (ie, he's taken a scum-favouring setup and made it more scum-favouring. Ack, I love a challenge).

While I agree with most of your post, there's something about this that bothers me. It's not really a scum-favoring game. It's not halfway to nightless mafia; it practically is nightless mafia. It would seem the proper strategy is to stump yourself instead of letting yourself be hammered if you're town. I haven't worked out the math on it yet, so I'm not too up in arms, but I have trouble believing the setup can be truly scum favoring.

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Er.... OF COURSE the correct strategy for town players is to stump when lynch is otherwise inevitable. How on earth can you get anything else from that post? That's the underlying assumption behind the whole thing!

Therefore, the scum will only get to kill up to twice, when one of their number is lynched. However, that the scum do get to kill immediately after one of their own is lynched is an advantage compared to actual nightless mafia. Hence, as I say the scum need six town lynches and the town need three scum lynches.

To be completely fair, your math would likely have made more sense if I wasn't trying to figure it out after staying awake for 38 hours.

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unvote vote Quagmire

Unexplaned vote on Shanba; possibly random, but that's petering out. Maybe you just feel sorrow over missing it (welcome, btw).

More to the point, Shanba's grilling TMJ is perfectly reasonable- TMJ made a stupid statement, and Shanba is seizing the opportunity. It's not as though we've got anything better to go on; and the idea that TMJ would even consider offing two townies for no reason is ridiculous. Because you haven't explained the vote, I have to assume that Shanba's more recent posts are why, unless you'd care to explain.

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It's also stupid for you to vote for me as a punishment for not explaining my vote. How in the world is that a scumtell at all?

This is true.

Quagmire, how is my vote beneficial to scum?

Beat me to it. Maybe Quag and I will have to agree to disagree. The whole point is discussion- that's how the town wins. In what way does withholding discussion help the town?

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It's also stupid for you to vote for me as a punishment for not explaining my vote. How in the world is that a scumtell at all?

This is true.

Quagmire, how is my vote beneficial to scum?

Beat me to it. Maybe Quag and I will have to agree to disagree. The whole point is discussion- that's how the town wins. In what way does withholding discussion help the town?

It's not withholding discussion that concerns me, it's the unnecessary pressure of a vote and attack on a player you admit you don't know the alignment of... I'm all for discussion, but that wasn't necessary or productive.

Which, again, is a bad example. If there were a player I knew to be scum, I would jump upon that wagon in a heartbeat. However, since no scum have been so polite as to step forward and volunteer themselves, I have to leap on players I don't yet know the alignment of, and hope to shake something loose in the pressure.

[Sudo_Nym]

Which, again, is a bad example. If there were a player I knew to be scum, I would jump upon that wagon in a heartbeat. However, since no scum have been so polite as to step forward and volunteer themselves, I have to leap on players I don't yet know the alignment of, and hope to shake something loose in the pressure.

Why would you not vote who you think is scummy? All this talk about 'building pressure' and 'asking questions' is just bullshit masked as an excuse.

So I'll just sit around and wait for somebody to own up? What method do you believe I should use, then, if building pressure and asking questions is just bullshit?

[Sudo_Nym]

Also, antitown = scummy, since town has no incentive to deliberately hurt the town.

This is a sidetracking theory post, but no no no a thousand times no. People who think this are terrible at playing mafia.

Out of curiousity, under what circumstances do you believe it correct for town to play to deliberately hurt the town?

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unvote, vote: saberwolf

Mostly out of annoyance, but he's clearly being anti-town at the moment. Let's see if starting a bandwagon will interest him in the game, like he says.

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I think Quagmire is intentionally trying to start an argument with Fonz; I can only assume he's targetting Fonz for being the most active player so far.

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I think Quagmire is intentionally trying to start an argument with Fonz; I can only assume he's targetting Fonz for being the most active player so far.

Arguments are an essential part of mafia. And more importantly, I don't see how quag disagreeing with Fonz is him intentionally trying to start an argument with him just because Fonz has been the most active. Not to mention that Fonz is really the one that started the argument.

I understand that arguing is the heart of mafia. I just think that Quag is arguing with Fonz, over even semantical points for the sake of argument, then for any actual productive reason.

@Sanjay: Yes, I did get the feeling with his arguments with both Shanba and myself- I feel like Quag is just arguing with everyone over everything, just for the sake of argument, rather than "to find scum" or even "to move the game along."

[Sudo_Nym]

only Quagmire can answr that.

Nope. Only Sudo_Nym can.

Because his arguments against me have been meaningless semantical debates, but dismissive rather than trying to prove scumminess. However, he's been trying to convert "meaningless semantics" into scumminess on the most pro-town player so far.

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unvote, vote Cybele

Ironic vote for lurking. Work has been murder for me, if that counts as an excuse.

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@Sud0: Do you have any unironic opinions?

Not really; a lot of people have been away for too long, the people I thought would be here (Shanba, Quagmire) haven't been, and it's making it hard to actually determine anything useful.

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saberwolf must be pretty pissed that despite all the effort he is putting into being the most anti-town player, half the town is outdoing him.

Personally, I could easily be persuaded to lynch saberwolf now, just to be rid of his anti-townieness.

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@ Everyone- if SW is town, what is his motive here? If he is scum?

I don't think he has a motive, per se, just being a jackass. I don't think an honest determination of his alignment to be made here, except insofar as, if he's town, why wouldn't he even try? But then, there's an argument like that for a lot of people in the game right now.

I see no protown motive for him wanting to lynch saberwolf. Given that he hasn't even said he thinks he is scum.

Interesting that you would choose me to single out, given that my vote isn't on saberwolf. Trying to start a pile on me?

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Shit. I spent so long trying to do stuff for Mish Mash that I forgot I was in this game. Reading up...

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I'm not going to stump. I honestly am trying to catch up, but between work and real life, I've been having trouble doing so. I'd be willing to step aside if a replacement can be found, however, since I clearly have not been as active as I ought to have been.