Mini 876 - Tree Stump II [Day None] (Abandoned)

[Quagmire]

Quagmire, how is my vote beneficial to scum?

Because you're admitting to not caring about his alignment when voting for him... it's like you're trying to apply unnecessary pressure, which isn't a townie move.

If you were a newer player, I'd give this a pass as a mafia gaffe, but an experienced townie player should know better than to push a wagon that's not scummy.

[Quagmire]

It's also stupid for you to vote for me as a punishment for not explaining my vote. How in the world is that a scumtell at all?

This is true.

Quagmire, how is my vote beneficial to scum?

Beat me to it. Maybe Quag and I will have to agree to disagree. The whole point is discussion- that's how the town wins. In what way does withholding discussion help the town?

It's not withholding discussion that concerns me, it's the unnecessary pressure of a vote and attack on a player you admit you don't know the alignment of... I'm all for discussion, but that wasn't necessary or productive.

[Quagmire]

There's a connection here between Sudo_Nym and Shanba... one can only assume that at least one of them is town at this point. Naturally I think the townie of the two would be Sudo_Nym.

[Sanjay]

Unvote

Vote: Mr.Jester

Is the case unreasonable or is inconclusive? Surely those aren't the same thing to you.

Of course they are not the same thing. Just to be clear let me define what I mean by what I mean by both.

Unreasonable: is an evaluation of the cogency of an argument. i.e given (A,B,C) => D. The argument (A,B,C)=> D is not cogent or reasonable, in other words poor. We can do this on several reasons, ie rejection of premises, relevance and grounds.

Conclusive: Given a set of arguments (A,B,C). The truth of all the premises guarantees the truth of the conclusion, in other words, that the argument is "valid". An argument being inconclusive is the negation of this. it, the truth of all the premises does not guarantee the truth of the conclusion.


As for your vote, you have given no justification or reasoning. That's twice you've done this already in a game that's 3 pages long.

Twice? What was the first time? My vote for Cobalt? Because surely you don't mean my vote for Chinaman. Did you miss post 45? I would expect someone weighing in and commenting on the oddness of the Chinaman wagon to pay more attention to me than that.

As for my case against you that caused my vote:

If you think the argument that Chinaman's scumclaim makes him scummy is unreasonable, why in the world would you say this:

However, based on his future actions, this act could serve to support his lynch later on. As for now it isn't conclusive.

What future actions did you have in mind? You were practically arguing that it was a town tell (which I have no problem with, by the way), and here you are saying "hey, maybe if Chinaman gets into trouble we can remember this and lynch him".

What?

There's no conflict between an argument being unreasonable and inconclusive, but it seems off to say an argument is inconclusive when you are also saying it is unreasonable, because the second one is much stronger.

[Mr.Jester]

Unvote

Vote: Mr.Jester

Is the case unreasonable or is inconclusive? Surely those aren't the same thing to you.

Of course they are not the same thing. Just to be clear let me define what I mean by what I mean by both.

Unreasonable: is an evaluation of the cogency of an argument. i.e given (A,B,C) => D. The argument (A,B,C)=> D is not cogent or reasonable, in other words poor. We can do this on several reasons, ie rejection of premises, relevance and grounds.

Conclusive: Given a set of arguments (A,B,C). The truth of all the premises guarantees the truth of the conclusion, in other words, that the argument is "valid". An argument being inconclusive is the negation of this. it, the truth of all the premises does not guarantee the truth of the conclusion.


As for your vote, you have given no justification or reasoning. That's twice you've done this already in a game that's 3 pages long.

Twice? What was the first time? My vote for Cobalt? Because surely you don't mean my vote for Chinaman. Did you miss post 45? I would expect someone weighing in and commenting on the oddness of the Chinaman wagon to pay more attention to me than that.

As for my case against you that caused my vote:

If you think the argument that Chinaman's scumclaim makes him scummy is unreasonable, why in the world would you say this:

However, based on his future actions, this act could serve to support his lynch later on. As for now it isn't conclusive.

What future actions did you have in mind? You were practically arguing that it was a town tell (which I have no problem with, by the way), and here you are saying "hey, maybe if Chinaman gets into trouble we can remember this and lynch him".

What?

There's no conflict between an argument being unreasonable and inconclusive, but it seems off to say an argument is inconclusive when you are also saying it is unreasonable, because the second one is much stronger.

I think I'm being ambiguous on 2 counts.

1. By justification or reasoning, I mean a cogent argument that Chinaman is scum. Post 45, is in no way any sort of cogent argument. The argument that chinaman shrugging off his claim as a joke implies that he is scum is completely unreasonable.

2. You are correct in finding a flaw in my wording. That should read "for not it is unreasonable" not "conclusive", that was ambiguous english on my part. But yes, for now the argument is not persuasive. However, if that premise is supported by other premises in the future then it could turn into a cogent argument.

[Sanjay]

If you don't understand someone's reasoning is it your policy to assume there is none?

[Sanjay]

"No justification or reasoning" is a bogus way to describe an argument just because you don't agree with it.

[Mr.Jester]

"No justification or reasoning" is a bogus way to describe an argument just because you don't agree with it.

False.

I can respect arguments that are reasonable yet don't persuade me. For example, I am pro Choice. However, I can certainly respect the Pro Life argument as being reasonable and cogent but I am not persuaded by it.

On the other hand, I can dismiss poor arguments on the basis that the argument itself if poor. Take your argument, you claim that because he shrugs of his comment as a joke he must be scum.

If a person shrugs of a comment as a joke imply they are scum. As I said before, logically, we must assume that Chinaman was joking because if we do not then we assume illogical scum, which is illogical. If a comment is a joke, then he can claim that it is a joke (ie, If A, then A). So then if you know he was joking and claims it is a joke, which is true, that certainly does not imply that he is scum. Logically, the point to debate here is that whether we can conclude that he was in fact joking, because if you assume that he was joking, then of course he can claim it is a joke, from which it follows that your argument is not cogent.

[Sanjay]

You are skirting the issue.

Even if I were to concede that the Chinaman case was poor, no reasoning does not equal bad reasoning. You are saying that they do.

[Cobalt]

It's also stupid for you to vote for me as a punishment for not explaining my vote. How in the world is that a scumtell at all?

This is true.

Quagmire, how is my vote beneficial to scum?

Beat me to it. Maybe Quag and I will have to agree to disagree. The whole point is discussion- that's how the town wins. In what way does withholding discussion help the town?

It's not withholding discussion that concerns me, it's the unnecessary pressure of a vote and attack on a player you admit you don't know the alignment of... I'm all for discussion, but that wasn't necessary or productive.

Does anyone else see what I see?

[saberwolf]

nope, but then again, I've been patiently waiting for this to wrap up so we can move on in the game, so I haven't been following in great detail.

[Sanjay]

For what it is worth, I don't think I clearly articulated why I thought Chinaman is scummy.

I think taking issue with Chinaman's scumclaim is a perfectly legitimate thing to do. It seems gambit-y and deserving of attention. When Chinaman said don't worry about it, it was just a Monty Python quote, The Fonz asked him why he made an irrelevant post. Chinaman's response in post 42 was this:

The Fonz p31: Really? You are pointing at me for irrelevant posts in RVS? Are you serious? If so, why did you decide to pick up on my irrelevant post vs. anyone else's? To answer your question, it's RVS and I was having fun with it.

That Chinaman said he was having fun with it I am fine with. Town or scum, Chinaman could be telling the truth here. But he is also pretty critical of The Fonz for criticizing his post. I don't think this reaction is justified.

Even if Chinaman is joking, I didn't see why he thought The Fonz's comments were so unreasonable. I don't like that he played it off as just having fun when he should realize that no matter what the intention, it is more serious than that.

[The Fonz]

The Fonz p31: Really? You are pointing at me for irrelevant posts in RVS? Are you serious? If so, why did you decide to pick up on my irrelevant post vs. anyone else's? To answer your question, it's RVS and I was having fun with it.

Because it doesn't do anything to move the game on. I could post the dead parrot sketch: How would it help us to get into real discussion?

As for the last part, please point out where I was "bitching" about the balance. I think this is a little extreme and a bit of a stretch. It also paints me in a more negative light than what really occurred. .

Again, why does town have reason to complain that a game is unfair to the lumberjacks? Either you're doing nothing of substance, or you're deliberately implying you might be scum in order to get people to jump on you. Neither is good.

Four votes on Chinaman already? Bound to be scum jumping on this by now.

Unvote, Vote: Cybele

how about a proposal....you stump yourself and if you aren't scum I'll stump myself (unless you believe that both of us are town)

This is exactly what SilverPhoenix (or was it Korlash?) and Scotmany started doing in TS1. Please don't act like a VI.

shanba, do you really think what TMJ said was scummy as opposed to anti-town? That looks more like a VI move than a scum move. What kind of scum would offer to go 1 for 1 with a vanilla townie?

WIFOM.

Also, antitown = scummy, since town has no incentive to deliberately hurt the town.

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

Do you think that Shanba's estranged voting would be worth a vote on day 5?

Why is that relevant? It isn't day 5.

Does anyone else see what I see?

Yes.

[Sudo_Nym]

It's also stupid for you to vote for me as a punishment for not explaining my vote. How in the world is that a scumtell at all?

This is true.

Quagmire, how is my vote beneficial to scum?

Beat me to it. Maybe Quag and I will have to agree to disagree. The whole point is discussion- that's how the town wins. In what way does withholding discussion help the town?

It's not withholding discussion that concerns me, it's the unnecessary pressure of a vote and attack on a player you admit you don't know the alignment of... I'm all for discussion, but that wasn't necessary or productive.

Which, again, is a bad example. If there were a player I knew to be scum, I would jump upon that wagon in a heartbeat. However, since no scum have been so polite as to step forward and volunteer themselves, I have to leap on players I don't yet know the alignment of, and hope to shake something loose in the pressure.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

Four votes on Chinaman already? Bound to be scum jumping on this by now.

Unvote, Vote: Cybele

I agree that Cybele need to be more active

unvote

vote :Cybele

how about a proposal....you stump yourself and if you aren't scum I'll stump myself (unless you believe that both of us are town)

This is exactly what SilverPhoenix (or was it Korlash?) and Scotmany started doing in TS1. Please don't act like a VI.

I don't read the entire TS1. And I don't know that SP or Korlash did it before. One thing I know that a scum will not accept the proposal while a town "might" accept it if he believe that I'm scum. the way chinaman "run" and avoiding my question make me think that he is scum.

[Quagmire]

Which, again, is a bad example. If there were a player I knew to be scum, I would jump upon that wagon in a heartbeat. However, since no scum have been so polite as to step forward and volunteer themselves, I have to leap on players I don't yet know the alignment of, and hope to shake something loose in the pressure.

Why would you not vote who you think is scummy? All this talk about 'building pressure' and 'asking questions' is just bullshit masked as an excuse.

[Empking]

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

Do you think that Shanba's estranged voting would be worth a vote on day 5?

Why is that relevant? It isn't day 5.

I don't agree with his point so i wasasking how much he really believes it.

[Sudo_Nym]

Which, again, is a bad example. If there were a player I knew to be scum, I would jump upon that wagon in a heartbeat. However, since no scum have been so polite as to step forward and volunteer themselves, I have to leap on players I don't yet know the alignment of, and hope to shake something loose in the pressure.

Why would you not vote who you think is scummy? All this talk about 'building pressure' and 'asking questions' is just bullshit masked as an excuse.

So I'll just sit around and wait for somebody to own up? What method do you believe I should use, then, if building pressure and asking questions is just bullshit?

[Quagmire]

Which, again, is a bad example. If there were a player I knew to be scum, I would jump upon that wagon in a heartbeat. However, since no scum have been so polite as to step forward and volunteer themselves, I have to leap on players I don't yet know the alignment of, and hope to shake something loose in the pressure.

Why would you not vote who you think is scummy? All this talk about 'building pressure' and 'asking questions' is just bullshit masked as an excuse.

So I'll just sit around and wait for somebody to own up? What method do you believe I should use, then, if building pressure and asking questions is just bullshit?

Can you read? You're obviously not understanding what I'm saying.

[Quagmire]

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

Do you think that Shanba's estranged voting would be worth a vote on day 5?

Why is that relevant? It isn't day 5.

I don't agree with his point so i wasasking how much he really believes it.

That's a terrible way to gauge whether or not I believe it. It's probably not worth a vote on day 5.

[The Fonz]

Four votes on Chinaman already? Bound to be scum jumping on this by now.

Unvote, Vote: Cybele

I agree that Cybele need to be more active

unvote

vote :Cybele

Why do you 'agree' with something I didn't say? 'Needs to be more active' has NOTHING to do with why I voted Cybele.

I don't read the entire TS1. And I don't know that SP or Korlash did it before. One thing I know that a scum will not accept the proposal while a town "might" accept it if he believe that I'm scum. the way chinaman "run" and avoiding my question make me think that he is scum.

That is a Grade A pile of steaming faeces, because any town with half a brain will not accept it because of the real possibility you are not scum but simply an idiot. Then again, town with half a brain wouldn't propose it.

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

Do you think that Shanba's estranged voting would be worth a vote on day 5?

That's a terrible way to gauge whether or not I believe it. It's probably not worth a vote on day 5.

Uh-huh. Something has to be a pretty damn huge scumtell to be worth a vote on day five on its own. That something isn't a huge scumtell doesn't mean it's not a scumtell.

[Cobalt]

I've played with TMJ. Not only is he a VI, he is a VI with a weak grasp of English.

[Quagmire]

What is a VI

[saberwolf]

What is a VI

village idiot

[Tjoe Min Ja]

what ^ said...

@Cobalt : who is the scummiest, then?