Mini 876 - Tree Stump II [Day None] (Abandoned)

[Cobalt]

quag prolly

[Quagmire]

Also, antitown = scummy, since town has no incentive to deliberately hurt the town.

This is a sidetracking theory post, but no no no a thousand times no. People who think this are terrible at playing mafia.

[Empking]

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

Do you think that Shanba's estranged voting would be worth a vote on day 5?

That's a terrible way to gauge whether or not I believe it. It's probably not worth a vote on day 5.

Uh-huh. Something has to be a pretty damn huge scumtell to be worth a vote on day five on its own. That something isn't a huge scumtell doesn't mean it's not a scumtell.

Did you read the post where I got the original Quag quote from?
You're essentially agreeing with my point.

[Quagmire]

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

Do you think that Shanba's estranged voting would be worth a vote on day 5?

That's a terrible way to gauge whether or not I believe it. It's probably not worth a vote on day 5.

Uh-huh. Something has to be a pretty damn huge scumtell to be worth a vote on day five on its own. That something isn't a huge scumtell doesn't mean it's not a scumtell.

Did you read the post where I got the original Quag quote from?
You're essentially agreeing with my point.

The quote tags are mixed up. Weren't you disagreeing with me?

[Empking]

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

Your post.

I asked the day five thing to see if you would have voted Shanba if there was something better to go on.

[Quagmire]

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

Besides, we do have something better to go on. Shanba's estranged voting is an early scumtell.

Your post.

I asked the day five thing to see if you would have voted Shanba if there was something better to go on.

Oh, of course not. If there's something better to go on right now I'd go for it. But there's not.

[Sanjay]

Are you being funny, Quag? What happened to this:

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

[Quagmire]

Are you being funny, Quag? What happened to this:

Can people please stop using 'there's nothing better to go on right now' as an excuse to vote someone? It's not legitimate, and it's not an excuse. Don't pretend like it is.

There's a difference between voting for someone due to lack of a better option, and voting for someone while understanding there

could

be a better option.

[Quagmire]

Although I don't know why people don't think Shanba's not scummy? He's been silent since I voted for him.

[Sanjay]

I feel the same way about Mr.Jester.

Tell me more about estranged voting. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by it and why it is a scumtell.

[Shanba]

Quagmire, how is my vote beneficial to scum?

Because you're admitting to not caring about his alignment when voting for him... it's like you're trying to apply unnecessary pressure, which isn't a townie move.

If you were a newer player, I'd give this a pass as a mafia gaffe, but an experienced townie player should know better than to push a wagon that's not scummy.

I would agree if there were anything scummy going down before that point, but there wasn't. Normally, I'd be content with waiting for everyone to get the formalities done of voting people for stupid reasons, but this time I wanted to be a bit more pro-active, and see if I could use the random voting stage and the random idiocy that comes out as a means of pressure.

Which brings me to my second point, that is, that I completely disagree with you. How is the pressure unnecessary? At the very least, it tells us somethign about Tjoe Min Ja and their knowledge/belief about the game, and by putting the pressure down helps keep them off balance and thus more honest. Less time to think = less time to overthink, more likely to actually reveal something useful.

nope, but then again, I've been patiently waiting for this to wrap up so we can move on in the game, so I haven't been following in great detail.

What exactly do you expect to happen? The game just magically starts?


Tjoe, I'd like a response to my post.

[Sudo_Nym]

Also, antitown = scummy, since town has no incentive to deliberately hurt the town.

This is a sidetracking theory post, but no no no a thousand times no. People who think this are terrible at playing mafia.

Out of curiousity, under what circumstances do you believe it correct for town to play to deliberately hurt the town?

[Tjoe Min Ja]

@shanba : lol...putting a pressure by voting is necessity.

that's why I'm voting chinaman and cybele.

chinaman's "claim" maybe scummy but at least he give some explanation (although I'm not satisfied yet)

cybele barely did nothing. and that's what I've been aiming. by pointing finger, putting pressure, we'll get more post and reading. especially at day 1 where there are no casualities or voting pattern to read yet.

[SensFan]

Chinaman has requested replacement by PM. I'm looking into it.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

lol

*watch chinaman run*

[Quagmire]

Also, antitown = scummy, since town has no incentive to deliberately hurt the town.

This is a sidetracking theory post, but no no no a thousand times no. People who think this are terrible at playing mafia.

Out of curiousity, under what circumstances do you believe it correct for town to play to deliberately hurt the town?

Only in game-specific contexts, of which we'd see in a quirky theme game or something.

But that wasn't my point. My point was that people who use 'anti-town' as a scumtell are the ones who are terrible at mafia.

[Quagmire]

I would agree if there were anything scummy going down before that point, but there wasn't. Normally, I'd be content with waiting for everyone to get the formalities done of voting people for stupid reasons, but this time I wanted to be a bit more pro-active, and see if I could use the random voting stage and the random idiocy that comes out as a means of pressure.

Which brings me to my second point, that is, that I completely disagree with you. How is the pressure unnecessary? At the very least, it tells us somethign about Tjoe Min Ja and their knowledge/belief about the game, and by putting the pressure down helps keep them off balance and thus more honest. Less time to think = less time to overthink, more likely to actually reveal something useful.

From what I understand and have read of Tjoe Min Ja, he's a new player who doesn't quite grasp mafia just yet. As thus, his logic and posting style is going to be skewed to the point where bad logic isn't going to be a scumtell in this case... in other words, it's going to take time to figure out exactly what he's all about.

That's why I think your vote was nothing more than a masquerade. The vote in and of itself was totally unnecessary, as you could have applied pressure to him without it

and

you admitted to not knowing or caring about his alignment at the time. Now, that's not necessarily a scumtell in itself, as you could just be pulling a mafia gaffe here, but what puts me over the edge is that you felt it necessary to try and build a bandwagon on a player under the excuse of 'pressure-building' ... you're not going to be able to tell Tjoe Min Ja's alignment just by pressuring him and asking him questions yet, because you have no idea what his scumtells are yet.

And I think you're smart enough to understand this, but are just trying to pick on the easy target. Do you think your vote on him now is still justified?

[Shanba]

I do think my vote is justified, and I dispute the idea that picking on the easy target is a bad thing in context. The basic idea behind what you're saying is that I'm (possibly) scum who was trying to build a bandwagon against Tjoe Min Ja. Except that makes no sense, since there's little point in building a bandwagon as scum unless it's going to lead to a lynch or a claim. How often have you actually seen this type of vote actually lead to a wagon or lynch?

Also, I dispute

he vote in and of itself was totally unnecessary, as you could have applied pressure to him without it

Yes I could, but a vote by its very nature amplifies pressure. If you're voted, it focuses your attention on the player voting for you, and makes you more likely to respond to them. How often have you seen players just blatantly ignore quetions addressed to them? Far more often than they ignore votes, in my experience.

Now, I agree with you that I don't have the requisite info to be able to work out Tjoe's alignment just through pressure; but then, the pressure in and of itself allows me to gain more information about him. I get at once a baseline idea of how he thinks and possible extra info which I can scan for generic scumtells (which while they may not be as accurate as meta-specific, are still perfectly legit).

Now take his response. He said that he voting people for pressure is necessary, he said that he doesn't believe there is a lot of information available day 1. That information in and of itself is useful; for example, it means we might expect him to scumhunt harder day 2 onwards, it means we can call him on it if he ever says anything about how he thinks voting for pressure is a scumtell. We also get a clarification of his thought processes about Cybele and chinaman.

It's interesting, as I'd normally be on quag's side here (particularly on thigns like "This is a sidetracking theory post, but no no no a thousand times no. People who think this are terrible at playing mafia."), but the basic idea I can't get my head round is that he doesn't want me to try and pressure a guy 4 pages into day 1.

[Shanba]

Unvote

[SensFan]

scotmany replaces Chinaman, effective as soon as he posts.

[The Fonz]

Aha! Scot, having been on the receiving end last time, could you please explain to Tjoe why the whole 'I'll stump if you stump' thing is dumb?

[scotmany12]

Aha! Scot, having been on the receiving end last time, could you please explain to Tjoe why the whole 'I'll stump if you stump' thing is dumb?

Tis extremely dumb. I'm pretty sure I said something when whoever suggested that to me along the lines of "I know Im town, and thats the only thing Im certain about, so if you turn up town (he was, I didn't scumhunt good that game, thank god for glork) Im not going to stump unless necessary, cause it would hurt the town." Basically, no matter how sure you might be someone is a lumberjack, you shouldn't stump to get them to stump, because they just wont do it, as town or scum.

Also,

unvote

. I've skimmed over the thread a little bit. I'll read more in depth after work tonight.

Can you explain your vote on cybele Fonz? If you already did I apologize and I will read your explanation later, but I didn't see any.

[The Fonz]

No, you're quite right, I did it without explanation deliberately.

Saying 'there is at least one scum out of these four,' not saying which is most likely, not differentiating between when and why people joined the wagon, and not moving your own random vote is all mouth and no trousers, trying-to-look-like-scumhunting, scattergun aspersion casting. It does nothing to help the town, just points at several players and goes 'Hey, these guys are scummy! Someone make a wagon for me!'

[scotmany12]

quag prolly

Care to explain? You have kept your vote on him since your very first post, and it seems you actually have some reasoning for that vote now.

Concerning the whole quag and shanba debate, I agree with quag that shanba's vote was bad, as are all votes where the player does not care about the votee's alignment. I totally see where Quag is coming from, and understand his vote on Shanba.

Moving on,

vote: saberwolf

nope, but then again, I've been patiently waiting for this to wrap up so we can move on in the game, so I haven't been following in great detail.

I see no incentive for you to do this as town. None at all. I don't see why you would want to attribute something to the discussion, unless you were being extra careful and didn't want to slip up anywhere, which of course you would only do if you were scum.

[scotmany12]

EBWOP: contribute, not attribute.