Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[don_johnson]

hello. replacing in. would like to catch up soon but am off to work. will try tomorrow. i don't do huge catch up posts anymore so don't get your hopes up.

[don_johnson]

sorry, catching up a bit today.

unvote

[don_johnson]

mod: v/la through august 19th

*You mean until 19th?

i will have some access and will make the effort to get caught up. i am sorry but this timing was unforeseen.

[don_johnson]

just got back to town. going to bed and busy day tomorrow, but i will post something of content late tomorrow night. this game is a priority in catch-ups. sorry for the delay.

[don_johnson]

based on first page rvs interactions i have come to the conclusion that idiotking is scum.

vote: idiotking

[don_johnson]

a) why is it ludicrous? do you not think that players who recieve a scum role play it in a particular fashion which may, to the trained eye, be entirely discernible with minimal effort?

b) voting me will not motivate me. i am operating under time constraints, therefore i will put forth my best effort. due to these constraints i will claim a town power role. i will not divulge what type so as to contribute to the wifom of scum's night choices. i claim now because dj is an inevitable wagon(due to his playstyle) and i do not want town to waste time.

c) no i have not read the entire game. my post pretty clearly states that the decision was made after reading the rvs. but if you want clarification, consider this it.

d) it is not a requirement for me to talk about everyone else. i will give opinions as i develop them upon reading the game. my read of the rvs leads me to think ik to be in possession of a scum role. not sure how to explain intangible. it is entire coincidence that he is the leading wagon at this time.

[don_johnson]

1. If scum is so obvious, then it would be easy to point out IK's faults. The town would have probably lynched him by now if it was that obvious. Can you feel free to elaborate to clear the air about this?

in due time. i claimed town pr to avoid this pointless discussion. yet here we are. moving on.

2. Oh wow soft claiming town PR this early with the "time is an issue" is really just awful and a bad excuse. If this is true then you are outing yourself for no reason, and the best response is /replace out if your real life is getting out of hand to play this game. Real life comes first, then mafia. If the time restraints are part of your role then it only makes me think of this: "time bomb".

not replacing. playing. drawing out scum. what's wrong with a pr claim? it narrows down the lynch pool for day one, should avoid uinecessary discussion regarding dj's playstyle, and creates a wifomic situation for scum's nk choices on night one. please explain how the pr claim is bad for town.

3. This is after RVS. IK developed much stronger tells after the RVS around page 7. To base your vote on the RVS this late in the day is just plain dumb when you have a slew of information to look at and develop that strong case .

^^ ad hom. i haven't read to page seven. would you prefer i not vote as i read? voting keeps me active and helps to elicit discussion and work towards a lynch. if you have a "strong case" then why are you asking me for it? why not present it yourself? why not accept the help that my vote offers in regards to lynching someone you seem to be implying that you agree is scummy?

Nothing good came from that, I hope you know. Disclosing which players have power roles helps scum in that they gain a better idea of which players are more worthwhile to target. If anyone is going to be hit at Night, we want it to be a Vanilla Townie. It gives the power roles more life and gives the Town, in general, an edge against scum.

okay. at this point, would you say i am a worthwhile target for nk? by virtue of my playstyle i tend to avoid being killed at night. check my meta if you need to. by claiming the role but not divulging what it is makes it even less likely that i will be killed at night which makes it more likely that i will make a successful night action. kind of a trade off. and if scum nk's me and succeeds, well then, you will know exactly who and what i am. end result, no harm done.

Don, don't you think it would have been a smart idea to read through the whole thread before making an idiotic post like that?

^^ funny coming from someone named the "idiotking". short answer: no. it would have been idiotic if i had pretended to read the thread, but what i did was actually make a rather clear statement of my suspicions based on the rvs. did i clarify why? no. but i certainly clarified my suspicions and provided the proper timeline. omgusing isn't going to help your defense if you are town so i suggest you take a different track.

Don, why the hell did you claim power unprovoked like that?

why not? see above for my explanation. what is wrong with the claim? as much as i have not substantiated my vote on ik with a mountain of quotes and evidence, only one player has tried to lay ouit exactly why my claim was bad, and i have responded accordingly.

you are making a vote for scum... on page 17 after going only on the RVS and what you have read so far. you can see why everyone is questioning you and pointing fingers at you right?

questioning? yes. pointing fingers? no. besides the "too scummy to be scum defense", the wifom, unprovoked claim, and unsubstantiated vote, there has been no focus on my slot all day. no reason to start now. did idiotking flip town? without his flip none of you can accurately judge my actions. and yet some of you are trying. i am amused.

I have no problem with someone making a vote based on the RVS. The game would go nowhere if people didn't. Making a vote based on the RVS as we're approaching a deadline? That could be a problem.

if i leave my slot "not voting", it would be abigger problem, no?

@don
Before I give any opinions on the situation, there are two things I'm interested in knowing:
1) Were you aware of the coming deadline?
2) How bad are your current time constraints?

1) no. but looking back, we have five days. is it an issue? have we some sort of consensus on a deadline lynch?
2) not bad, but my unexpected v/la set me back and i am now starting school while juggling work and family. seat time at the cpu is harder to come by. if you've read me before you should be able to notice the difference. i am generally an active player. recently(and not just in this game) i have had to compromise my usual methods in a number of ways. i'm doing a lot less reading and rereading and looking more at behavioral trends, iso reads, rvs tendencies, and voting patterns. not necessarily ion that order.

[don_johnson]

ebwop:

ik: if rvs is useless, then why does it exist?(please don't answer, its rhetorical. rvs is a useful tool. i realize my statement directed at you might read offensive, but the comment on your name was made in jest.)

[don_johnson]

you do realize that you are both trying to push a lynch on a claimed town pr on day 1?

both dtm and ik seem to be misrepping me just a bit here.

please point out where i said i "shouldn't" have read. i am missing something there.

dtm: the rhetorical question was there to prove a point. if you would like to engage in a theoretical discussion about the value of the rvs then by all means pick a side and begin to argue, but its a waste of time. i think the rvs can be a useful tool in many ways. if you disagree then so be it. i didn't want ik's answer because it would begin the circle of ridiculous theory discussion we don't need right now.

saying i am "bad" is ad hom. it is fail logic and you should all know that.

Claiming PR doesn't make you all mighty and all knowing good sir. Nor does it clear you. A PR claim only has merit when it cannot be counter claimed and can only be supported through cop investigations, and/or watcher/tracker night actions.

^ misrep. i never said i was all knowing or all mighty. if a pr claim has merit when it can be supported through investigations, etc. why are you voting for me? its day 1. if i am scum i know have to live a lie. if i am town, then there should be ways to corroborate my claim, as well as the distinct possibility that i may be nk'd. lynching day 1 is about the least sensible solution to this issue. i have not asked to be above scrutiny. i am just pointing out that it is rather silly to bother with it now when it can be addressed in so many more logical ways at a later time.

Right now I question your motives right here and now. To me it smells of scum gambit, not pro-town scum hunting.

please explain this "scum" gambit.
now you imply i am setting some sort of trap with a rhetorical question when said question is clearly labeled "rhetorical" and no follow up has been made. i am not stupid and i really don't know why you are trying to imply that i am. oh wait, yes i do:

unvote, vote dtmaster

you fit a scum profile to a T. you are using bad logic to try and cast suspicion on a claimed town pr, contradicting your own reasoning regarding how to deal with it, misrepping me while defending ik, and all of this with a little bit of ad hom.

[don_johnson]

you are twisting words out of context. my statement was a response to your question. you ignored the rest of my response and are focusing on a particular phrase which does not accurately represent the gist of our exchange.

my vote on dtm is rather symbolic. i think both of these players are scum.

[don_johnson]

436 is at ik.

dtm: you are shit out of luck. i am not explaining anything to you. we are nearing deadline. both you and ik are acceptable lynches imo.

[don_johnson]

sorry to hear that. i am not replacing out. not sure what you expect to me other than "after reading the rvs it seemed to me as though ik is scum". there's no "deep" analysis involved. get over it. if you are town then make yourself a bit more useful. when i replaced in and failed to get caught up you didn't care at all about me. now you seem to "need" my participation. guess what? i am participating. i have laid out my suspicions and if i have the chance to read more and post more i will, until then you need to move on or dig in. i suggest moving on because i am not going to respond to strong arm tactics and insults.

[don_johnson]

@don They are not trying to say the rvs isn't important, they are saying that you should not use the rvs as your only source of information. You seem to me as if you think the rvs is the most important part of the game. After I have read the entire game, I don't think that idk in the rvs is suspicious. If you read it you wouldn't think so either. You argue that the RVS is black and white. Well it isn't. .

sorry but no. i haven't read the game and i never said the rvs is the most important part. i also didn't argue that rvs is black or white. i simply implied that it is foolish to assume one can't use it as a scumhunting tool.

chain of events:

dj read rvs.

dj became suspicious of ik.

dj voted ik.

continuing to ask me questions regarding these minimal actions is only going to prevent me from reading more of this thread. if someone has a lynch to propose, by all means, don't let me stop you. there is only so much i can continue to offer on this subject. my claim was meant to try and avoid much of this confusion. ik may very well be scum so harping on my vote is just a wee bit premature. not sure why it is such a big deal.

[don_johnson]

^^ okay.

unvote, vote ik

your flip proves nothing about my earlier vote as my earlier vote was based on the interactions of the rvs. your flip will serve better as an indicator of alignment to those who were attacking me based on my vote. but whatever, discussion should continue, but day 1 investigations should end with a vanilla claim. you may or may not be scum at this point, but outing too many roles is poor form. people should be coming down on the side they want here, but as a town, we should agree to move forward with this lynch.

shrine's last post is either misrep or misunderstanding. i am not crediting myself for the FACT that don_johnson is not often nk'd. i realize other players make the choices, but if you read my games you will see why scumdj lives to endgame more often than not and towndj makes it to lylo more often than not.

- Um, YES. Harm done. No good comes from losing a power role. <_<

i'm actually still here and none of you has any idea what my role consists of. we haven't lost anything yet. so again: NO HARM DONE. the above statement seems to indicate you believe my claim, so what purpose does it serve to cast me in a poor light?

[don_johnson]

I agree with the dangers of outing too many PRs on day 1 (in an ongoing game we lost a doc, a hider, and 2 lovers on day one .... lets just say the town isn't happy)

^^ this is against the rules.

requesting modkill

[don_johnson]

*facepalm*

requesting a modkill is no different than a day vig attempt. dtmaster is a leading suspect of mine who has admittedly scummy posts. relax. i have no need to remove heat from me. i am a claimed town pr and it is day 1. it is against the rules to discuss

ongoing

games. it is a modkillable offense although in reviewing the rules i see that he can recieve a warning instead. whatever, i would prefer modkill as i think he is scum.

[don_johnson]

^^ this guy sounds like scum.

[don_johnson]

yes, i read 500 as though he is trying to convince himself of his own suspicions and get everyone to believe that he actually believes himself. does that make any sense?

[don_johnson]

i would move to jason as well, but if he flips town then the quandary surrounding ik's alignment would still stand. i think the ik lynch is necessary to confirm our current suspicions. but i'm not going to swim against the current with deadline looming.

[don_johnson]

I would prefer a hiphop lynch to a toro one, but if it comes down to it I'd support either.

what about rc and jason? let me rephrase: are there any lynches you wouldn't support?

[don_johnson]

I would prefer a hiphop lynch to a toro one, but if it comes down to it I'd support either.

what about rc and jason? let me rephrase: are there any lynches you wouldn't support?

Well, I wouldn't support a Ryan, DTM, Shine, Zach, or Paradoxombie lynch, if that's what you mean.

yes, that's what i mean. thanks. i read the initial statement as oppurtunistic(anyone but me) behavior, but you are clarifying that this is not so.

i think you are most likely town, but i still think you are a good day 1 lynch. i'll move to jason, but i would rather be sure about you first so as to help qualify my suspicions of everyone now involved. anyone have a better idea?

[don_johnson]

not sure what the second part there means, but no. i have not read the entire game, nor do i plan to. if i get the chance, i will, but at this point i think I have plenty to go on and it is time consuming enough to stay current.

please explain further what you mean by getting a lynch that makes it easier for me. is the implication that i am scum looking for an easy lynch? or is the implication that i am scum looking for the lynch that will make the game easier for me? or is the implication that i am town and looking for the quickest lynch so that i can read up during night phase? or is it something else?

[don_johnson]

And is it just me or did Toro breadcrumb a power role in his most recent post?

^^ this is so anti-town that it isn't even funny. when someone "breadcrumbs" a role you certainly shouldn't be calling attention to it. power roles should choose when they wish to be outed and pointing to someone and saying "i think he's saying he has a powerrole" is just plain stupid 99% of the time.

just because i think someone is town doesn't mean its odd for me to want them lynched. someone needs to be lynched and if we do it for information its better on day 1 than in lylo. so yeah, ik should be lynched because most of our suspicions of others are based around their actions regarding his bandwagon. how can we qualify those suspicions without having 100% proof of his alignment. he claimed vanilla, we should follow through. i'm not going to tunnel this, but we need his flip. if he flips scum and i am wrong then its a good thing and i am not so egotistical as to think i am always right. he didn't get so many votes on him by accident.

[don_johnson]

stay the course. lynch ik. his actions have been questionable and people are tieing themselves to the wagon one way or the other. would another wagon net info as well? absolutely, but we shouldn't be forgetting that ik has already claimed vanilla. with one pr out in the open and a second speculatively soft claimed, further pushing is a bit ludicrous. just because some of ik's recent actions make him look town, it shouldn't excuse his earlier play. its day 1. players are trying to base suspicions off of how other players are acting surrounding the ik wagon, but unless we lynch ik we will not know whether these suspicions have validity. simply lynching one of several other players will leave ik's play in a questionable light. i am not tunneling here, i am playing to strategy. bottom line:

ik has already claimed vanilla. lets lynch him and move on. we have a good shot here at getting at least one succesful night action resolved. lets not endanger what seems to be a strategic high ground for town.

ik: if you are town you definitely need to consider the possibility of the self hammer.

[don_johnson]

^^ yes, which is why you should be voting for ik.

[don_johnson]

its not about this particular game. its about intelligent strategy. stop being so egotistical that you think someone else isn't smart enough to make good decisions on limited information.

in the rules post it says deadline is 8/24 which is today.

[don_johnson]

mod: i approve a deadline extension.

^^ this does not change the fact that i think it is poor form to run someone else to a claim. discuss away, but ik should be our lynch barring unforeseen obvscum behavior. my sceond choice, if i have to see another player run up would be jason. i don't see the case on toro. if someone would care to paraphrase it that would be great.

[don_johnson]

ik: if you are town you definitely need to consider the possibility of the self hammer.

Unless it's 5 minutes till the deadline and I'm at L-1, I'm not self-hammering. That's just ridiculous. You're actually advocating for me to self-hammer?

yes, but only in the situation you are describing. a no lynch would be bad, and lynching someone without a claim, for instance, could be equally as damaging. no offense, but you have claimed vanilla, your actions have been questionable as well as those around you. i find you to be a perfectly acceptable day 1 lynch. if you flip town then i think you will have helped town tremendously as it would confirm many of the suspicions currently being discussed.

[don_johnson]

^^ absolutely. that's two power role claims you disbelieve and two claimed pr's you seem to want lynched.

rc: the second sentence is what i've been saying all along. many of us have suspicions of others that are based around their interaction with the ik wagon. without confirming ik's alignment the suspicions don't hold as much water. yes, another wagon and another flip would help to confirm things as well, but ik has claimed. i don't see the benefit of forcing another claim with less than 48 hours to deadline when we have a good(and relatively safe) suspect to lynch. just because we are secondguessing his alignment doesn't change the fact that he has now voted for two claimed pr's. am i skeptical of toro? a bit, but not enough to out and out push for a lynch on someone who may be able to be confirmed in other ways. ik is just playing terrible here and is either scum or misguided town. if he flips town he will be a good information lynch and town won't lose a potential power role nor risk outing yet another claim on DAY 1.

i'll lynch jason to avoid a no-lynch. but if he's scum he'll be here tomorrow. if we have a vig they might take him out tonight. we need information to have a productive day 2 and pushing someone else closer to lynch this close to deadline can be extremely detrimental to town.

[don_johnson]

I really am uncomfortable with this comment, just like I have a few of Dons posts. He will lynch just to avoid a no lynch... yet admits to not reading the game in full nor will he read the game.

a) it is day 1. i will absolutely lynch just to avoid a no-lynch. however, that is not what i am doing. i have laid my suspicions out and been as clear as possible with my reasoning. of what significance is my "reading the game"? i am reading it now. i am staying current. if there is something you think is of tremendous importance dwelling in the areas of the game that i have not read, why don't you point them out for me?

He is only going on what has been posted since he came into the game and

latched onto everyone elses suspicions

.

please explain the bolded. perhaps show some evidence. i believe i was the first to call disingenuity on that original waffling bullshit sandwich of words you called a post where you talked yourself into oh, what were they again? oh yeah, everyone elses suspicions.

Just seems he wants a lynch, any lynch without doing the work... he has already admitted he does not want to do the work (reading the game and forming his own opinions)

i didn't realize my opinions were not my own. how can you say i want "any lynch" when i have specifically and repeatedly been calling for ik's lynch above anyone elses?

[don_johnson]

wow. post 632: huge deflection.

though i would rather be lynching ik i am getting more and more comfortable with scumjason with each of his posts. i ask you for evidence of my behavior and you produce a blanket statement that doesn't address even the core of your accusations against me and vice versa. so again:

1) if there is something you think is of tremendous importance dwelling in the areas of the game that i have not read, why don't you point them out for me?

2) how can you say i want "any lynch" when i have specifically and repeatedly been calling for ik's lynch above anyone elses?

[don_johnson]

can we please just lynch ik? that's potentially three town power roles out. between jason and toro i am actually more inclined to believe jason. roleblocker is often a scum role. jason should most certainly be investigating toro tonight. protective role(s) should be protecting myself and/or jason. deadline is approaching.

jason, be sure you choose a post where someone professes there alignment. in fact, everyone should right now post a statement of their alignment to make it easier for jason to investigate. if anyone doesn't post their alignment before deadline then jason can either look back and find something on them or we will put them under severe scrutiny tomorrow.

obviously, jason, the above statemement to investigate toro is onnly a suggestion. make up your own mind, but realize we all need to work together to make our roles useful.

[don_johnson]

i am town aligned.

[don_johnson]

mod: vote count and deadline info please.

everyone: please state your alignments asap.

[don_johnson]

we are in need of a hammer.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: is someone can wait until we've all had a chance to post our alignments that would be great.

FoS

to those lurking through deadline.

[don_johnson]

triple: toro - please claim your alignment.

[don_johnson]

i like this beginning. this most likely signals the existence of a second faction, be it mafia number two or an sk. unless we have a successful vig shot? i am going to look back at drk because he was one i had not pegged as anywhere near scum. sufficed to say this is a good start no matter how we slice it.

[don_johnson]

drk seemed to avoid the toro wagon the most. the buddying to rc was rather extensive and it may just have been scum to town as rc suggests. of note is one early post(15-17 of iso, i think) where drk lists his top suspects regarding the hiphop wagon. jason/paradox/rc/ik. jason remains on his scumdar all day, though the dropping of rc from that list could be something as well. towards the end of the day he seems bent on the ik lynch with jason as his "second". he seems to drop hiphop and due to their interactions and his early defense and hiphopwagon analysis i think hiphop is most likely not aligned with drk. of course, this analysis should not eliminate any of these players from scrutiny as possible sk.

my list of possible partners as of now is: zach/jason/rc/toro and not in that order.

investigated Dons claim of having a PR as it seemed so vague and I did have some suspicions on him.

jason: please quote the post of mine that you actually investigated.

i agree with ryan that mafia#2 is less likely than vig/sk. if we have a successful vig, however, they should certainly be claiming at some point today so as to avoid confusion. not to rolefish here, but one successful vig shot should be considered a success from any town aligned players view point. hiding your existence may be problematic if we get to a lylo situation.

[don_johnson]

ok. i wanted to make sure you highlighted something with my alignment as well as the role claim.

toro: please explain your choice. what made you suspicious of drk?

[don_johnson]

Given the current set up, there is no way all three of them are power roles, given the issue with the NK.

please explain this. how is there "no way"? we have no other claimed prs. three prs does not sound farfetched. if toro blocked a mafia goon that could certainly explain the night results of only one nk.

Right now, Toro seems most likely lying, as I could see him and DRK making this a mafia RB "block the night kill" ploy, in an attempt to clear Toro while sacrificing DRK.

are you implying that mafia killed one of their own? this was mentioned before, but i find it extremely wifomic(if not completely assanine) to suggest such a thing. escpecially considering drk had little suspicion on him day 1. let's stick to the facts, and mafia killing one of their own is quite a bit outside of the realm of "most likely" scenarios here.

i do agree with the suspicion of toro. the whole "it was a crapshoot" makes no sense considering toro did express suspicion of a couple players during day1. why he would say "i can be a game changer" and then use his ability supposedly "randomly" makes little to no sense.

vote: toro

i reiterate my request for a vig claim.

[don_johnson]

I see no reason for anyone to claim except near a lynch. Otherwise we are sacrificing the town's power to alleviate our curiosity. Whatever happened last night, it was good, I'm happy. I'd be happy if it happened again.

FOS

Zach for asking for a vig claim. What WIFOM are you talking about? How would a claim help us besides getting our vig killed? And even if they claimed we'd still suspect them as an SK.

though zach is on my shortlist, i have to disagree here. i also asked for a claim as i think a vig claim would be helpful. the problem with vig is that it is easy cover for sk. without a claim we run the risk of carrying a nightkiller into lylo type situations. this is not a good idea. i believe vigilantes should shoot early and claim early. taking a nightkill is better than scum targeting someone else who may have a more important role like cop or doc.

i think 711 is better reasoning for an FoS than 710.

[don_johnson]

Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.

^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.

[don_johnson]

we have no guarantee that toro rb'd anyone. he should most certainly be lynched, especially due to the fact that drk avoided him like the plague on day 1. i don't find it suspicious for paradox to change positions when posed with the reasoning i gave him. 721 seems like a bit of rolefishing, so more scumpoints for zach in this exchange. let's analyze some other players before we end the day, as unless we get a scumclaim i think we can agree that toro is the lynch.

i'm pretty sure paradox is town and am on the fence with zach, so i would like other players to post their opinions.

[don_johnson]

fair enough. i'll wait for this to pan out before dropping my two cents.

[don_johnson]

^^ what? noone got thrown under a bus, toro, drk was nk'd. personally, i think anyone perpetuating the idea that mafia killed one of their own for wifomic effect deserves a hearty FoS.

your contributions are lackluster and roleblocking power in your hands is not all that useful. i'd rather know your alignment as it would help us determine what happened last night. i think that's the most helpful way to use you even if you are town.

Just saying 'I don't believe' and just throwing down a vote on a PR is just stupid.

who did this?

[don_johnson]

Personally, I think it was a vig kill over an SK kill, given my analysis of DRK's interaction with IK.

please detail this. it is a very suspicious statement. i thought drk was obvtown for the better part of the day yesterday. to me it looks way more like an sk picking a town target.

FoS Ryan

just an odd thing to say here. if you can back this up with evidence i will retract my statement.

[don_johnson]

i understand. i am just wondering why your interpretation has gone from vig/sk to vig. drk presented more town in my opinion than he did scum. a vig would aim for scum, an sk would most likely target town on night one. just because he flipped scum does not mean it was a vig shot as opposed to sk. the fact that he presented as townie makes me lean more towards and sk target. also, i am a strong believer that if vig exists they need to claim, so by not claiming today i have to operate on the basis that vig does not exist. a vig claim later in the game would have to be interpreted as an sk fakeclaim thereby leading to a potential mislynch if vig actually exists.

ryan: you said-

Personally, I think it was a vig kill over an SK kill,

given my analysis of DRK's interaction with IK

.

i asked you to explain this and you have not. the post you directed me too does not explain this statement at all. please detail what interactions you are referring to and why, after ik flipped town, that a vig would target drk.

[don_johnson]

now you're making sense, and thank you for the claim. i still think we should follow through with the toro lynch.

ryan:

1) are you comfortable with letting us help direct your kills from here on out?

2) do you agree that as a safety precaution we need to be rid of you before a lylo or similar situation?

3) in regards to (2), would you be willing to self vig if necessary?

we now have:

town

roleblocker
dj(unknown)
lie detector
vig

scum

goon

may be premature to call town overpowered, but i find toro's claim the most suspicious. i think alot of what we do is going to depend on his flip. if he flips town i suggest protective role(s) randomize their selection(s).

with a town flip, perhaps the vig should hold their fire this evening?(thinking out loud here)

thoughts?

[don_johnson]

2.) No, I think that is completely unnecessary, and I will show why in a minute. Not to mention, a vig is a TOWN-ORIENTED person, and lynching them in a lylo is a bad option, since it a town-confirmed individual and at that point I feel many other options would be available given the small number of players.

my point here is that you are not confirmed just because you claim vig. yes, lynching the claimed vig is bad in lylo, but wifomic, as(depending on the circumstances) you could theoretically be the last scum(if two factions), or an sk. i just don't like carrying nightkillers too long, which is why is suggest the self vig, as a lynch of a town vig is a veritable wasted lynch. but obviously these are all subjective trains of thought. you do seem aware of the implications and i appreciate your take on not killing, however, even that does not confirm you. at this point, you are town vig to me and that is how i will be reading this game. hopefully we can find the rest of the scum before any of the sticky situations arise.

knowing now that drk was killed by ryan is good. i'd like more opinions and ideas, however, before we lynch toro.

[don_johnson]

weak hammer. but we'll see. good point about hiphop/toro. toro's inability to participate makes him a good information lynch if he flips town, so i'm not going to be too upset about this. hopefully we've nailed the scum roleblocker.

if we have protective roles, do not protect the vig, please. ryan, do what you think is best, but realize protecting you would be poor town play. good luck. the helpfulness of my night action results depend on the flip, so i will try to post in twilight.

requesting doc protect if i don't get the chance.

[don_johnson]

TBH, I'm not a huge fan of big summarative posts. I prefer to reread the game as a base for my own understanding, and then jump immediately into the relevant issues at hand.

As far as the lynch today, I would have hammered myself based on Toro's self-vote alone. In my experience, self-voting is almost always a scum ploy. Additionally, calling for your own lynch as he did is a scare tactic. He also essentially disappeared when the pressure mounted, at least in terms of his actual participation in the game.

interesting. toro's play was sub par the entire game. how can someone dissappear when they have barely ever appeared in the first place? also, i'd love for you to reference games where self voting was used as a scum ploy. imo, more often than not, self voting is a desperate town measure or a townie's last ditch gambit. i am becoming more inclined to think toro is exactly who he says he is.

DTM 767 is a false dilemma as far as i can see. hopefully we can get some explanation tomorrow.

[don_johnson]

So because you think I'm wrong, you think toro is right?

That looks like a scum move to me. You would know if he's town if you're scum.

no to the first question. the fact he was basically quicklynched, the fact that he self voted, and the fact that he didn't really adjust his playstyle at all when he was under pressure lead me to believe he may have been telling the truth here, but we'll have to wait and see.

your last sentence is the exact opposite of groundbreaking deductive reasoning. it applys to any player who would be scum.

if you're going to call me scum, you better bring a bit more to the table.

[don_johnson]

if ryan is not vig, then he is most likely sk. i would be fine if scum counterclaimed the killing. it would be in their benefit to lynch sk as sk's are usually unightkillable. occam's razor points to a two person scum team and an sk. without the roleblocker active the scum kill would most likely have gone through making it appear we still have two killing factions. i am fine with a hip-hop lynch, but the fact that this game is still going on raises suspicion of ryan who i had yesterday as town.

need more input from others, though, if there is another scum then they could easily be lurking.

[don_johnson]

ebwop:

a) i am not a watcher/tracker.

b) i have been in several games where power roles didn't add up, so saying we "must" have a watcher/tracker would be fallacious. noting that ryan did not in fact say "must", but my point should be taken into account.

[don_johnson]

fair enough. i suppose this has to do with your opinion of me?

[don_johnson]

Like I said, I'd be willing to do that on the condition we vow to kill him if he disobeys.

Does anyone else think a massclaim might be a good idea?

a) how would we know if he disobeys? he could be sk.

b) no need to massclaim, but i won't oppose it. we are ahead of the curve right now. mass claim is better reserved for times when town has nothing to go on.

ryan: i want to believe you are town. in fact, you were the only one i felt sure was town going into night phase, but i cannot ignore the possibility that you are a clever sk, and i wouldn't be doing my job if i did ignore it.

imo possible set-ups:

1) 3 player scum team, nine townies
2) 3 scum, 1 sk, eight townies
3) 2 scum, 1 sk, nine townies
4) 4 scum?, eight townies
5) 2 scum, 2 other scum, 8 townies.

set-ups 2,4, and 5 are less likely, but i have seen plenty of games with set-up 3 and 1 to not bat an eye at the possibility. rethiking and i would be less opposed to a massclaim now, but if we do claim we need to have a strategy going into night and unfortunately, scum will be privvy to that strategy. a no-lynch should also be an option here, that is, we could just let ryan pick off hiphop at night. i certainly agree he is one of the most suspicious.

[don_johnson]

@Don

a. It's called a gamble at this point. Since Zach didn't watch Ryan we cannot confirm him through watcher powers. Since he's been able to snipe scum, I'm willing to trust him. If he disobeys we'll be in lylo tomorrow and we can lynch him then for being SK. If there is scum left then we will need his vote.

we won't have his vote if we lynch him. how do you know zach didn't watch ryan? why does town need to "gamble" at this point? seems to me we could win easily if we play our cards right?

b. Your setups break the 3 scum rule for setups 2,4,5. Usually its 3 scum in this setup and if there was 4 with a vig/sk in the mix we would need to literally kill scum everyday to win and lynch on the final day or we lose. If there is 3 kills a day and 2 of them are townies. It's too much for a max of 12 people.

usually is not always. i have played in many games with odd set-ups. never more than four scum, but i have played in all of the amentioned set-ups in twelve player games.

c. Why did you ignore my question?

didn't see it. let me look...

How is it simpler to have an SK and a 2 man scum team then a traditional 3 man scum team?

we have two nightkills per night indicating two killing factions. simplest explanation is two scum factions. most likely set-up with two scum factions is 2man scum team and 1sk imo.

thinking out loud:

a vig with multiple shots is a possibility, but then why wasn't vig targeted by mafia? if they were a two man team they would have suspected him to be sk and would need to get rid of him. if they were three man team then they would suspect him to be vig. again it makes sense to target him. in fact it makes more sense to target him if they believe he is vig than if they believe him to be sk. since they did not target him, then they must think he is sk. if they think he is sk then their is most likely only two scum. sk's are often unk and that would explain why they wouldn't target him. protective roles don't

usually

target vig's due to the wifom surrounding their alignment, so i don't see any reason for scum to fear killing the "vig". anyways...

Did you get anything in the night to help us?

maybe. did you?

[don_johnson]

ebwop: in regards to the four scum set-ups, their would not be a town vig. in those set-ups, and in fact, any of the set-ups with an sk, their would be no town vig. three killing factions is unlikely, especially considering we only have two kills per night for two nights in a row.

so far:

zach: town watcher(claimed)
ryan: town vig(claimed)
don: town pr(claimed)
toro: town roleblocker(confirmed)

if sk exists then it is most likely ryan. it is beyond reasonable to think he is scum gambiting for the sk to expose themself.

[don_johnson]

ryan: i want to believe you are town. in fact, you were the only one i felt sure was town going into night phase, but i cannot ignore the possibility that you are a clever sk, and i wouldn't be doing my job if i did ignore it.

I understand you, but you seem to further implicate that I am an SK more and more with every post, subtely trying to get the town to think that way. Very clever.

not clever. just not stupid. possibility exists that you are sk.

we have two nightkills per night indicating two killing factions. simplest explanation is two scum factions. most likely set-up with two scum factions is 2man scum team and 1sk imo.

We have not had 2 NKs every night. Toro RBed one night, remember?

implication of two kills per night. not sure why mafia would have had the goon doing the killing though...

I feel SK would be more important to kill for mafia than SK. When I have played as mafia, and seen a Vig, I have usually let them go, because their track record is usually not that good. I assume the mafia assumed I wouldn't kill (like I said I might) and at tops wouldn't get another mafia either. Either way, whether or not I am SK or Vig, they should have killed a confirmed power killing role.

yes.

if sk exists then it is most likely ryan. it is beyond reasonable to think he is scum gambiting for the sk to expose themself.

What do you mean by the last sentence?
You think I am scum gambiting (3rd scum) trying to get the SK (2nd killing faction) to out himself? Good God.
I thought you said 3 scum 1 Sk was extrmeely unlikely?

beyond reasonable means not reasonable. i don't think you are gambitting scum. you are either vig or sk.

Let's just end this discussion now.
I am a vigilante, town aligned.
There is 3 scum, most likely the last having some powerful role (since all we have killed is a goon and a ninja).


We need a mass claim. I have a feeling it would put this game to rest.


Anybody do an ISO read of RC or Jason?

massclaim is fine. first i want to know zach's targets both nights.

[don_johnson]

good.

ryan: i am fairly convinved you are town due to your gameplay and target choices. i am formulating a plan that should result in a town win. it will take cooperation between you me and zach. i am just as if not more convinced that zach is town based on the fact that he claims watcher, picked sensible targets, and we have a confirmed ninja.

i have reason to believe paradox is town which leaves the final scum among:

hiphop
dtm
icemane

my plan should eliminate these three players and ryan before a lylo situation would have the chance to occur. personally, i think if we do it right we can win by morning. in any case, the claims won't hurt.

i am doctor.

today we lynch hiphop. if game continues then my plan is that i protect zach and zach watches me. ryan is left unprotected but has the green light to nk one of dtm/iceman. even if scum choose not to hit our "vig", we can continue lynching down the line into a three person lylo of zach/don/ryan. obviously, this plan rests on the three of us trusting each other to the point that we know that if this situation occurs then the game should already be over. if it isn't, well then, most likely scenario is that ryan is sk and zach and i lynch him. i doubt it will come to that as i have already stated i believe the three of us to be town. thoughts?

[don_johnson]

So, seeing as though you claimed doc, Don, why were you going into all that trouble discussing why I wasn't killed last night? You clearly protected me last night, and well, I'm intrigued how that fit into your whole thought process about me not being targeted. Just seems odd you would go into detail on why I may not have been targeted when it was null and void anyway, especially when you discussed an SK being unnightkillable.

Why protect someone you think might be an SK?

first, going into last night i had you pegged as most likely to be town. i also figured that if you were sk, then you may reveal yourself through your kill. either alignment, i felt it important to make sure that you made it into today. also, the fact that we had two kills and that eveidence points to two killing factions, the fact that rc showed up dead is proof enough at this point to determine that you were not targeted. the reason i am discussing these thing s is simple:

1) there is a big difference in "believeing" you to be sk, and simply "accepting the possibility" that you may be sk. as an uninformed minority i have to accept the possibility that you are lying simply due to the facets of your role. i.e. you kill at night.

2) i think it will help us better understand this game and its set-up. by discussing these things we get players reactions which can aide us in determining alignments.

my current belief is that we are most likely facing one of two scenarios:

1 scum left
or
1 sk left.

hence my plan. it eliminates all possibilities. by leaving you as the only unprotected "town" power role it is in scum's best interest to deal with you at night(especially since you have nk abilities) . if they want to wifom then they are going to kill elswhere(narrowing down our lynch pool) and most likely try to frame you or get you lynched. fact is, scum is dead in the water here. its you or its one other player. noone had made a concerted effort to jump on the idea of you being sk and get you lynched(which would be in scums best interest). noone has targeted you at night which means (if you are town) that they were most likely trying to lynch you later.

i protected paradox night one. the ninja flip makes me think i actually stopped the scum nk as opposed to toro's roleblock of drk. this leaves only the three aforementioned players as questionable imo. if we leave you unprotected and lynch/vig them in succession then we should wind up with a town win. you may get nk'd, but you'd still win, no?

i am fine with lynching iceman over hiphop. ryan can vig hiphop tonight.

vote: iceman

i hate to lynch him absentee, but his player slot is corrupted either way and forcing someon into replacing seems downright cruel.

the only flaw in my plan is if zach or i are scum, however, if evidence presents itself in either direction we can always address it when the time comes.

i say we do this and move forward. zach, make sure you watch me.

[don_johnson]

@Don

1. Faulty reasoning on Paradox's township because we cannot confirm if it was Toro's RB or your protect that stopped scum from committing NK in the first night. Unless RBs do not block kills then Para shouldn't be considered confirmed.

Then again the best thing for scum to do is for Jason to be the person executing the kills with his ability.

@Ice
Are you advocating that we lynch you and follow the Don's plan? o-o Ideally if one of the 3 of us is scum it wouldn't matter what order this goes towards.

bolded is the logical thought. i am not confirming paradox. he is simply less likely scum due to the circumstances. i would rather work through the three of you first, and no, order doesn't really matter as long as zach and i protect each other. if i show up dead and zach claims to not have seen me then zach should probably be lynched, but his targets and results make perfect sense as town watcher so i don't see that scenario as likely.

i'm fine with discussion carrying on, but i don't see too many flaws in this plan. if ryan is sk it is going to be extremely hard for him to win under the current set-up, so even if he is not town aligned, the only flaw is if zach or i are scum.

[don_johnson]

@ hiphop: it is much better if we have ryan continue killing. not only will it speed up the game, but if he is sk he will most likely need to find a way to get rid of me or zach to win and by doing so will only incriminate himself. also, if he is sk, he could easily kill and then say he didn't. so yeah, you're going to be nk'd. if you're town and you believe me and zach are town then you should be fine with the plan.

[don_johnson]

@Don

1. Btw your flaw only works if

both Zach and you are scum

, it cannot be either or. You confirmed his watches, and he confirmed your doc status. It's impossible for just one of you to be scum unless both of you are lying. I don't get why you are stressing that it fails if just one of you are scum. >>;;

You seem to be saying this a lot and it's an inaccuracy. The only other way for just one of you to be scum is that scum-Zach perfectly guessed your actions as doc on night 2.

zach could be scumwatcher. you are wrong. my plan is flawed if either mine or zachs alignment is anti-town. not sure why you are arguing such a moot point here. read up on mini 737- hack poetry mafia. i claimed town watcher on day 2 and won as scum watcher. zach, however, picked "townie" targets, i.e. those most likely to be nk'd by scum(claimed town pr's).

possibilities regarding ryan being sk:

he is possibly unightkillable. he may have been targeted night 1 and that was the reason the kill didn't go through.

his night two target was an uncounterclaimed investigative town role. yes jason was scum, but its a risky vig shot to say the least. a very smart sk shot as a "lie detector" would have been able to investigate ryan's claim.

if ryan doesn't go along with the plan then he is most likely sk. he should be happy as town vig to have nailed two scum already. i would like more of his opinion on the matter.

paradox: please claim. i would like your opinion on the plan as well.

[don_johnson]

Well, if you think hip is the final scum, let's lynch him and you can shoot me!

well, i think we should leave this up to ryan. if he is town vig then he has done an awesome job. as long as we follow the plan i am okay letting him pick the order.

paradox should still claim, but i will vote with ryan when he decides.

unvote

[don_johnson]

ice is coming off as town through this. dt seems to be scrambling to make himself useful, or panicking as the last scum. logically, though, hiphop makes the most sense. i am fine with his lynch.

vote: hiphop

ryan, sorry, but i'm not going to wait around forever here. nk ice or dtm if this doesn't end the game. i am protecting zach.

still no claim from paradox, but i can't imagine he's going to claim power at this point. oh well...

does anyone have a hammer?

[don_johnson]

that's dissappointing. any thoughts hiphop? who do you see as most likely scum? who would you recommend ryan to nk?

[don_johnson]

actually he's at L-1. somebody should be hammering...

[don_johnson]

my bad. that is a lynch.

if alexhans doesn't end twilight in his next post that might mean we have some voting shenanigans going on. odd.

mod: votecount please.

[don_johnson]

Zach, did Don visit you?

^^ odd question.

only one kill. ryan is more likely serial killer today than he was yesterday, and perhaps our best lynch.

paradox: please claim. post your thoughts.

dtm: being next in line according to the original plan, who would you prefer we lynch and what are your thoughts on the developments here?

[don_johnson]

if we no-lynch, ryan has to kill dtm or paradox. preferably dtm because of the night one protect. i would prefer to lynch. i think we can win today.

ryan: what is your major issue with being lynched today? given that scum would have only one choice to nk tonight, leaving zach and i a clear lynch in lylo, why does town still need a "vig"? (fyi: zach watching me lets him see who targets me, thereby reducing the chances of my being nk'd.) do you think either zach or i are scum?

[don_johnson]

ebwop: if ryan is sk then he kills and blames mafia, so asking him to "withold" his kill is pointless.

[don_johnson]

i think dtm is town.

vote: ryan

i'd rather not play my full hand yet, but the recent posting has me convinced that ryan is not town. there is no reason to keep a nightkiller around from here on out.

mod: prod paradox?

[don_johnson]

now we're talkin'.

Idiotking, Vanilla Townie
DeathRowKitty, Mafia Goon
Toro, Roleblocker
jasonT1981 , mafia ninja
RedCoyote, Vanilla Townie
hiphop, Townie
IcemanE Shrinehme, Vanilla Townie

don_johnson doctor
DTMaster vanilla
Paradoxombie tracker
ryan2754 vig
Zachrulez watcher

i don't like the slip. but it is certainly a believable claim when we see that the ninja was neither trackable nor watchable.

ryan: thoughts?

zach: you hold an important vote today, please withold it until you are certain of what to do.

paradox: are there any other facets to your role(yes or no)?

[don_johnson]

unvote

no need for a quick day.

[don_johnson]

paradox has tossed in the curve ball, but i still think ryan is sk.

my main issue here:

ryan targeted a claimed town powerrole night two. a player who claimed "investigative" powers. granted, jason was scum, but it is a seriously risky vig shot and seems more likely a shot taken by an sk who is posing as vig. also, ryan should be dead. scum calling in a no kill would only delay their downfall and thinking scum targeted zach is a bit silly, so yeah, the fact that ryan is still alive is enough for me to be convinced that we should lynch him today. zach and i can look after each other tonight and lynch the remaining player in the morning if the game doesn't end. we could do it the other way around, but i am more convinced of ryan's guilt at this point that i would rather lynch him over paradox or dtm.

what say you, zach?

[don_johnson]

still wrestling here with the safer decision. i will post more later.

[don_johnson]

back to the original plan.

DTM today.

ryan: kill paradox tonight.

i protect zach, zach watches me.

i am betting the game on the fact that i think zach is town and am willing to give ryan the benefit of the doubt. if he is the last scum then he's going to have to get extremely scummy tomorrow to try and pull out a win.

vote: dtm

[don_johnson]

ryan: pleas vig paradox.

sorry dtm.

[don_johnson]

i already claimed my actions. why ask again?

paradox: do you believe that the set-up is devoid of a town protective role?

I think Don is scum. There is no reason for RC to have been killed by mafia N2 over Don, the claimed powerrole. I thought his role as Doctor was confirmed because he visited me when there was no NK, but toro had blocked the goon that night.

^^ seems like extreme retroactive thinking here.

zach: what are your thoughts?

[don_johnson]

Idiotking, Vanilla Townie Toro, Roleblocker
RedCoyote, Vanilla Townie ryan2754, Vigilante
hiphop, Townie
IcemanE Shrinehme, Vanilla Townie


DeathRowKitty, Mafia Goon
jasonT1981 , mafia ninja


who did you target last night paradox?

[don_johnson]

sorry for the triple post, but if you are tracker, shouldn't you have someone cleared by now? you should have targeted either me or zach. but you obviously didn't.

FoS: paradoxombie

zach: he should have reported his results immediately. why hasn't he? here's my confession:

i am only a two shot doc. i haven't been able to protect you the last two nights. i was bluffing.

note that paradox claimed his targets initially after you and i were revealed. he should have tracked one of us last night. he obviously didn't track me, and he obviously didn't track you. had he tracked ryan he would have said something, but he didn't. if you need more of a case i will be glad to work on it, but if you read dox in iso it should be obvious. if you are scum then you deserve to win. so whatever.

balls to the wall, brother.

Nobody visited don on night one.

I tracked Don who visited me N1.

^^ i am obvtown here. i think zach is town, but i want to here some more discussion.

[don_johnson]

i am confirmed.

yours and zach's results conflict

. if you are town and don't want to be lynched then you should be focusing on proving to me that zach is the final scum, not giving me lip. got it?

[don_johnson]

i am confirmed.

yours and zach's results conflict

. if you are town and don't want to be lynched then you should be focusing on proving to me that zach is the final scum, not giving me lip. got it?

weak.

no. not weak.

I did recently notice the point you make about zach and my results, but I am unsure if a tracker would count as "visiting" someone.

if you are unsure that's fine, but it surprises me that the results conflicting doesn't raise your suspicion of zach. mod has now confirmed for us, so yeah, scratch that.

Also, why would scum fakeclaim watcher like Zach did?

why not? this is hardcore wifom. perhaps zach is scum watcher. i refer you to mini 737 hack poetry mafia. i was scum watcher, claimed town watcher and won. scum fakeclaim. why? so they have cover until endgame. same reason you might have fakeclaimed "tracker".

i do have suspicions of zach, but i am not going to post them for you to see, yet. if you think i'm scum then you are either scum or you are not paying attention. you know i've made visits, you know my targets didn't die. what's my role if its not two shot doc? why would i have protected ryan as scum? that alone makes no sense.

make your case on zach. i'm willing to listen, but pushing suspicion on me is out of touch at this point.

why would you track ryan? what information did you hope to gain when the plan was for him to kill you? if you were suspicious of either zach or i, why didn't you track one of us to see if we were lieing?

sorry paradox, but you are coming off the worst in all of this, so tell me why zach is scum.

mod: does "watching" count as a visit?

[don_johnson]

rereading zach's claim and it seems way more believable than yours. i want zach's opinion here.

zach: i am fairly convinced here that paradox is scum. yours and my targets make the most sense from town perspective and the fact that paradox is casting suspicion today without any logic whatsoever give me the inclination that he is scum.

paradox: how do you explain the night 1 kill not going through given that mafia had a ninja? i guess what i'm saying is that given the evidence, it seems like you should be more suspicious of zach than of me(if jason attempted the nk then he targeted you, and i protected you.) so your attack on me just seems forced and oppurtunistic. the fact that that kill didn't go through is the piece that doesn't really fit in the case against you, and it surprises me that you aren't really addressing that.

[don_johnson]

^^ yes.

paradox: the only way this could be untrue is if zach is lieing. the only reason zach would have to lie is if zach was scum. if i and zach were both scum then the game would be over, so logically, between zach and i, only zach has the potential to be scum here. does that make sense? from your pov could i be something like a rolecop? sure, but why would a mafia rolecop investigate a claimed vig? i guess a mafia watcher would have reason to watch the claimed power role in order to hunt a doc or cop, but then why would i watch you on night one(which you have confirmed as having been the case)? its all wifomic, but i think it makes the most sense for me to be obvtown here. also, if zach was scum all he would have to do is agree with you, which he doesn't. that doesn't mean he's necessarily town as he could just be playing well as scum.

my main issue with townzach is this: mafia had a ninja on night one. town roleblocker blocked the goon. why would mafia have the goon carry out a kill over a potentially untrackable/unwatchable nightkiller? it makes more sense to think that jason did indeed make the nk and that he targeted paradox, whom i protected. that would implicate paradoxombie as town which is the main reason paradox has remained low on my scum list all game. this is a tough one.

if you could both post exactly what you think the set-up is that would be helpful. if you believe the other to be scum, then what type of scum role would they possess and how do you explain their targets. if you still think i am scum then do the same for me. i need to think a bit more on this, but i will post my set-up speculation as well.

[don_johnson]

I am unsure what the setup is, but I'm very suspicious of the fact that you rapidly changed your mind about ryan and saw zach as clear for little reason yesterday. You also claimed a powerrole and weren't killed.

ryan survived quite a while with a vig claim. zak has also claimed power and not been killed. if you recall, i didn't full claim and did my best to not alert players to the fact that i was, in fact, a protective role. when playing doc it is tricky because you don't want to come off as too pro town early and draw the nightkill. you, yourself, have stated you were suspicious enough of me on day 1 to "track" me. your suspicions are as "wishy-washy" as mine in that regard.

I've been suspicious of zach before. And I've been in a situation like this before where one guy was quiet and two guys were super active arguing with each other, and the two of us ended up distracted and lost because of it.

I am also starting to think zach because his post today looks the most like an attempt to float through.

If Don was scum he could easily go after me and win, but that seems more like what zach is doing. Backing the guy who backed him yesterday. Don you look more paranoid like me.

agreed here. one thing i noticed in zach iso is the lack of "effort". not sure if that's the right wording here, but he seems to have been coasting through much of this game and relying on his roleclaim. additionally, until i can reconcile what happened to the mafia kill on night one it is difficult to suspect you enough to vote you(paradox). i don't know if i successfully stopped the kill. jason could have gotten paranoid and sent a goon in his place seeing as how he claimed town power on day 1. by doing so he may have been paranoid of being "watched" or "tracked" and thusly sent his goon to do the killing which would support the idea that toro stopped the kill. that would make you more likely scum.

i am in quite a pickle but i am still surprised that you harbor suspicion of me based on the evidence at hand. if you think i am scum i would like you to speculate on what my role would be and why i would have chosen you night 1 and ryan night 2. i am going to reread the timing around zach's claim(again) and see if anything seems off.

zach: i suggest you participate a bit more here as i am going to need much more convincing either way before i cast my vote.

i really thought we had this one and am now wondering if mafia no-killed and ryan self-vigged.

mod: if player a targets player b and player b targets player a, both with a nightkill, does submission order reflect upon who dies, or would both players bite the dust?

[don_johnson]

to clarify:

You can't simultaneously attack me and say you blocked the kill N1.

i am not trying to have it both ways. if i stopped the kill by protecting you then you are town. what i amstruggling with is whether or not id did, in fact, stop the kill or a different scenario played out.

I am unsure what the setup is, but I'm very suspicious of the fact that you rapidly changed your mind about ryan and saw zach as clear for little reason yesterday.

i "cleared" zach because of his watcher results and claim. not only did it seem genuine(it still does upon reread), but his results matched up with mine. that doesn't mean he can't be mafia watcher, but i seemed more sure that scum was between hiphop/dtm, etc. and i was almost positive that ryan was sk when his kill was the only one that came up.

as for the change of heart with ryan, as i said earlier, i was two shot doc. i have been bluffing protection the last two nights. with four of us going to night phase last night i was worried about skryan making a "rogue" maneuver, such as targeting zach or myself. he probably wouldn't have targeted zach because he would think the kill would fail, however, then there would just be a no-kill, so it might have been worth a shot. targeting me, however, may have been a good shot for an sk because he could then have started today with "well i thought don was scum so i took him out".

perhaps a long shot, but in my experience, it is just never a good idea to carry a nightkiller into lylo. in fact, had he hypothetically targeted a townie last night he would have been auto lynched today, so you can actually see the benefit now that he didn't survive the night.

oh goodness. it doesn't make much sense for scum to have killed ryan either. in fact, scum zach would most likely have no-killed which is why i need an answer from the mod on my rules question. maybe i can dig it up myself here.

post 53 iso of alexhans suggests natural resolution meaning ryan either nokilled or self vigged. hmm.

scum zach knew he would not be a target and so most certainly would have triggered ryan thinking that with two kills he would win then and there. scum paradox would have aticipated being targeted by ryan and so would have either no-killed in hopes that ryan did the same(unlikely) or shot ryan or a different townie. sorry, i thought this might help but i think i've talked myself into a dead end. ugh.

[don_johnson]

^^ apologies for the train of thought mess here. the nk is not helpful at all. i initially thought scumzach would simply no-kill, but that wouldn't make any sense, unless he believed ryan to be sk and was worried about an unightkillable effect(that some sk's have) and stayed home to avoid being tracked?

on the other hand, scum paradox would have known he(or his victim) was not going to be watched and so would have not hesitated with taking out the suspected vig/sk.

again, i apologize here, but this game is tieing my brain in knots. i may step away for a bit here.

[don_johnson]

just reread the entire game. i am going with my gut on this one. zach's actions and targets are way more plausible as town than as scum and if he is scum then he's done a great job.

i hate the fact that he seems to be coasting here, but:

vote: paradoxombie

scum zach wouldn't have killed ryan last night for fear of being tracked. i think jason got paranoid on night one and had the goon call in the kill. my stomach is in knots over this one. i think paradox painted himself into a corner with his claim. his suspicions seem illogical. also, if zach is scum watcher then i should have been the target night 2 as zach would have probably guessed that i wasn't protected.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

[don_johnson]

damnit. sorry guys. can we see roles, night actions, and the qt thread?

[don_johnson]

Noooo. Well I would have voted Paradox because of the whole:

1. Late claim which reads as too convienient.
2. The whole did not chose on night 3 when scum withheld their NK.
3. You didn't announced who you tracked.

^^ yeah. i still feel bad though. i pretty much organized the town into a slaughterhouse. unfortunately i do feel bad about ruining ryan's game. best vig performance i ever saw.

[don_johnson]

paradox: you were at least still using some form of dedictive reasoning at the end. in fact, you nearly had me convinced to vote zach, but i couldn't get past the facts surrounding your claim and subsequent targets. targeting ryan the last night didn't make any sense to me. at least you didn't vote for a townie in lylo.

mod: i did notice the three way bus and it was one of the reasons i saw zach as town. i was like "three way bus? no way." zach also voted jason in rvs. i am finding rvs votes to be very telling in my recent games and should have paid better attention. loved the flavor btw.

zach: you did exactly what you needed to do. well played. like i said, you deserved the win.

ryan: please don't hate me.

[don_johnson]

if there's a category i will second it.