Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[jasonT1981]

To be honest I would not count out the possibility of a pro-town, and a mafia role blocker in this game given the so far claimed roles.

The only way I could have got an inconclusive result is through either being roleblocked or that Don's in a ninja or unwatchable role where night actions towards him are immune. but not too sure if that can be applied in that situation as I am only going by roles I have already seen in my 3 games on MS

Also one thought, with DRKs death.. could it be a PGO (paranoid gun owner) he was the mafia goon, and if a mafia targets a PGO the mafia targeting said person dies instead of the target? that could also explain a mafia death with no other kill

[don_johnson]

Given the current set up, there is no way all three of them are power roles, given the issue with the NK.

please explain this. how is there "no way"? we have no other claimed prs. three prs does not sound farfetched. if toro blocked a mafia goon that could certainly explain the night results of only one nk.

Right now, Toro seems most likely lying, as I could see him and DRK making this a mafia RB "block the night kill" ploy, in an attempt to clear Toro while sacrificing DRK.

are you implying that mafia killed one of their own? this was mentioned before, but i find it extremely wifomic(if not completely assanine) to suggest such a thing. escpecially considering drk had little suspicion on him day 1. let's stick to the facts, and mafia killing one of their own is quite a bit outside of the realm of "most likely" scenarios here.

i do agree with the suspicion of toro. the whole "it was a crapshoot" makes no sense considering toro did express suspicion of a couple players during day1. why he would say "i can be a game changer" and then use his ability supposedly "randomly" makes little to no sense.

vote: toro

i reiterate my request for a vig claim.

[ryan2754]

Given the current set up, there is no way all three of them are power roles, given the issue with the NK.

please explain this. how is there "no way"? we have no other claimed prs. three prs does not sound farfetched. if toro blocked a mafia goon that could certainly explain the night results of only one nk.

We clearly have a Vig (or SK) as well. Thus, given previously claims, that would make 4. Thus most likely that one of the three that have claimed as lying. If there is an SK, I find it highly unlikely that there are 3 town PRs, and if there are, I doubt they are the ones that have been explicitly expressed by Toro and Jason (personally, I think one of them is lying indefinitely).

Right now, Toro seems most likely lying, as I could see him and DRK making this a mafia RB "block the night kill" ploy, in an attempt to clear Toro while sacrificing DRK.

are you implying that mafia killed one of their own? this was mentioned before, but i find it extremely wifomic(if not completely assanine) to suggest such a thing. escpecially considering drk had little suspicion on him day 1. let's stick to the facts, and mafia killing one of their own is quite a bit outside of the realm of "most likely" scenarios here.

No, I am not implying that. You are missing my point.
WHat I am saying is this: Toro claims Town RB, knowing we are going to be skeptical, and ask him for his N1 choice. He then discusses with his scumbuddy, to decide on NO NK. Thus, the next day, when Toro says, I RBed DRK, and no NK, so DRK must be scum. We lynch DRK, and he shows as scum, and Toro would gain a TON of ground with the rest of populace, as opposed to having to continually deal with explaining himself everyday, and eventually outting himself as mafia RB. However, seems to have possibly backfired with vig/SK kill of DRK.

I've seen stranger things, and from the few games I've played with DRK on this site (and the few he's played in general), he's pretty damn good,a nd could totally see him trying this. Not to mention, DRK never fully pushed at Toro, whereas he was hardcore on Jason, which makes me think Jason is town, personally.

[Paradoxombie]

@ryan7254: Unbelievably, I actually picked DRK.

I agree that this is unbelievable.

unvote, vote:Toro

I just don't buy that you got lucky like that.

[hiphop]

I find two things plausible from the discussion of what actually happened.
Mafia got RB and SK/vig killed, or Mafia Traitor. I like the first best.

I don't find bus drivers or redirectors believable for the mafia kill, because the odds would have been greater for them. They would have to of chosen a mafia member twice in order for a mafia member to die.

Toro- Why DRK? Don't say it was coincidence, because I don't believe that. You had 28 pages to have based an opinion, if you were town (or even scum) there had to of been a reason. What is it?

[RedCoyote]

DRK's kill will resolve even if she gets killed if the person didn't have NK protection. The only possible way she couldn't kill is explained in 2.

You're right; I spoke out of turn. There would be crosskill still in this instance. I was just harping back to the one-mafia-submits-kill thing, which still kind of throws me off at times.

I really hope there isn't a Redirector/Bus Driver though, those confuse the hell out of me.

---

The only way I could have got an inconclusive result is through either being roleblocked

This seems like the most plausible explanation to me. I see Toro's angle though, Toro is going for the angle that he blocked the Mafia's kill. To believe this, you have to set aside the improbability that both Toro and (Vig/SK/Other Mafia Group/Bodyguard/whatever role) chose the right people. Toro wants us to believe DRK's mafia team hit a double whammy. Their kill was roleblocked and the person they used to kill was killed himself.

jason used his power, and it was stopped. jason pointed out two logical reasons for this, he was either roleblocked or don has some sort of ability that would keep him from being investigated. I think don needs to do on record if he has anything in his role to indicate that he would be "uninvestigative" in anyway. I don't

think

this is a sort of power we would see in a Mini Normal, but I could be wrong. It seems a little complicated, but they are both valid, if not equal, solutions to why jason's investigation didn't go through.

---

I doubt they are the ones that have been explicitly expressed by Toro and Jason (personally, I think one of them is lying indefinitely).

I believe ryan is right here. It's difficult to imagine that both Toro and jason are telling the truth at this point.

WHat I am saying is this: Toro claims Town RB, knowing we are going to be skeptical, and ask him for his N1 choice. He then discusses with his scumbuddy, to decide on NO NK. Thus, the next day, when Toro says, I RBed DRK, and no NK, so DRK must be scum. We lynch DRK, and he shows as scum, and Toro would gain a TON of ground with the rest of populace, as opposed to having to continually deal with explaining himself everyday, and eventually outting himself as mafia RB. However, seems to have possibly backfired with vig/SK kill of DRK.

I understand your point, but this seems over the top. I am agreeing more with don, this just doesn't seem as likely. I think what's more likely is Toro saw an opportunity to claim that he blocked DRK (when it's more likely that he actually blocked jason) and he is kind of using the opportunity of no kill going through presented to him. It's possible the mafia felt as though they were strong enough to make this bold a move, but DRK wasn't suspected particually hard by anyone outside of Ik so far as I can tell.

But then again, if Toro blocked jason, what

did

happen to DRK's kill? Well, I've got to be thinking protection is the most likely.

---

I find two things plausible from the discussion of what actually happened.
Mafia got RB and SK/vig killed, or Mafia Traitor. I like the first best.

I read this as you believe Toro is telling the truth. What's your take on the night actions, hiphop?

Toro- Why DRK? Don't say it was coincidence, because I don't believe that. You had 28 pages to have based an opinion, if you were town (or even scum) there had to of been a reason. What is it?

I'm interested in this answer as well.

[alexhans]

Those in danger of suppression #26:

toro (3)

-

ryan2754, don_johnson, Paradoxombie

Not Voting (7)

-

Toro, jasonT1981, Zachrulez, RedCoyote, hiphop, DTMaster, icemanE

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

[ryan2754]

If there is a bus driver/redirector, that individual should claim now to shore up any of these possible scenarios.

[Zachrulez]

Lot of WIFOM on DRK's kill. Rather than drown in it, I think it's best that someone claim the kill if it was done by a vig, otherwise it's safe to assume that we have a serial killer walking about that crosskilled.

Toro's roleblocker target looks awfully convenient given the fact that the person he claims to have targeted is dead.

[Zachrulez]

Oh, and I'm doubting the existence of a bus driver in a mini normal setup, but I have been surprised before.

[Paradoxombie]

I see no reason for anyone to claim except near a lynch. Otherwise we are sacrificing the town's power to alleviate our curiosity. Whatever happened last night, it was good, I'm happy. I'd be happy if it happened again.

FOS

Zach for asking for a vig claim. What WIFOM are you talking about? How would a claim help us besides getting our vig killed? And even if they claimed we'd still suspect them as an SK.

[Paradoxombie]

Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.

[don_johnson]

I see no reason for anyone to claim except near a lynch. Otherwise we are sacrificing the town's power to alleviate our curiosity. Whatever happened last night, it was good, I'm happy. I'd be happy if it happened again.

FOS

Zach for asking for a vig claim. What WIFOM are you talking about? How would a claim help us besides getting our vig killed? And even if they claimed we'd still suspect them as an SK.

though zach is on my shortlist, i have to disagree here. i also asked for a claim as i think a vig claim would be helpful. the problem with vig is that it is easy cover for sk. without a claim we run the risk of carrying a nightkiller into lylo type situations. this is not a good idea. i believe vigilantes should shoot early and claim early. taking a nightkill is better than scum targeting someone else who may have a more important role like cop or doc.

i think 711 is better reasoning for an FoS than 710.

[Zachrulez]

The WIFOM that is trying to analyze what happend over the night phase, as several players have attempted to do over multiple posts.

Eh, I guess you're right about a vig claim being a bad idea. Kinda operating under the logic that a vig would be more willing to claim than an SK, but it would also put a vig at risk if that was the case.

Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.

[Zachrulez]

Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.

What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.

As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking.

[don_johnson]

Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.

^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.

[Paradoxombie]

Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.

What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.

As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking.

Well it's awfully easy to float along when you're doing that. I mean your first post was just an echo of things people had said before you. I'd say that about most people you've suspected besides DRK, which makes me wonder.

[Paradoxombie]

Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.

^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.

I agree a vig will be more dangerous than useful at this point. So if they really want to help the town they might as well claim.

[Paradoxombie]

Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.

^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.

I agree a vig will be more dangerous than useful at this point. So if they really want to help the town they might as well claim.[/quote

Protection will come.

*fixed tags

[Paradoxombie]

Mod could you fix those tags?

done

[Zachrulez]

Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.

What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.

As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking.

Well it's awfully easy to float along when you're doing that. I mean your first post was just an echo of things people had said before you. I'd say that about most people you've suspected besides DRK, which makes me wonder.

Let's not be hypocritical here, that's pretty much what you did agreeing with how unbelievable toro's claim sounded.

The following posts pretty much suspect me for doing that, without leaping to the same vote that you did.

Quite interested that you flipped to believing that a vig claim is best after attacking me for calling for one, which also calls your interest in lynching a claimed roleblocker into question when it seems to have prevented a mafia kill.

[Zachrulez]

Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.

^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.

I agree a vig will be more dangerous than useful at this point. So if they really want to help the town they might as well claim.

Protection will come.

Vote: Paradoxombie

Feel free to explain this post.

[Paradoxombie]

Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.

What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.

As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking.

Well it's awfully easy to float along when you're doing that. I mean your first post was just an echo of things people had said before you. I'd say that about most people you've suspected besides DRK, which makes me wonder.

Let's not be hypocritical here, that's pretty much what you did agreeing with how unbelievable toro's claim sounded.

The following posts pretty much suspect me for doing that, without leaping to the same vote that you did.

Quite interested that you flipped to believing that a vig claim is best after attacking me for calling for one, which also calls your interest in lynching a claimed roleblocker into question when it seems to have prevented a mafia kill.

I placed a vote because I wanted to do something while I rethought things. I'd like to reread too but I still want to pressure people over things going on now.

How is it interesting if I change my mind, when you did the same? Now that's hypocrisy. I still don't think a claimed vig will clarify anything, but I agree that the town has a better shot if they claim now.

And I wanted to lynch that roleblocker yesterday but I decided to wait to see if he came up with a BS night action today.

[Zachrulez]

I placed a vote because I wanted to do something while I rethought things. I'd like to reread too but I still want to pressure people over things going on now.

How is it interesting if I change my mind, when you did the same? Now that's hypocrisy. I still don't think a claimed vig will clarify anything, but I agree that the town has a better shot if they claim now.

And I wanted to lynch that roleblocker yesterday but I decided to wait to see if he came up with a BS night action today.

It's interesting because you found me suspicious for the position you are now taking.

[Zachrulez]

And personally, I have limited experience with vigilantes, having only run into the role twice on mafiascum. (One of the two times in which I was a dead vig before the role could factor in the game.)

So whose change in position is more interesting taking that into account?