Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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a) why is it ludicrous? do you not think that players who recieve a scum role play it in a particular fashion which may, to the trained eye, be entirely discernible with minimal effort?
b) voting me will not motivate me. i am operating under time constraints, therefore i will put forth my best effort. due to these constraints i will claim a town power role. i will not divulge what type so as to contribute to the wifom of scum's night choices. i claim now because dj is an inevitable wagon(due to his playstyle) and i do not want town to waste time.
c) no i have not read the entire game. my post pretty clearly states that the decision was made after reading the rvs. but if you want clarification, consider this it.
d) it is not a requirement for me to talk about everyone else. i will give opinions as i develop them upon reading the game. my read of the rvs leads me to think ik to be in possession of a scum role. not sure how to explain intangible. it is entire coincidence that he is the leading wagon at this time.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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in due time. i claimed town pr to avoid this pointless discussion. yet here we are. moving on.dtmaster wrote:1. If scum is so obvious, then it would be easy to point out IK's faults. The town would have probably lynched him by now if it was that obvious. Can you feel free to elaborate to clear the air about this?
not replacing. playing. drawing out scum. what's wrong with a pr claim? it narrows down the lynch pool for day one, should avoid uinecessary discussion regarding dj's playstyle, and creates a wifomic situation for scum's nk choices on night one. please explain how the pr claim is bad for town.dt wrote:2. Oh wow soft claiming town PR this early with the "time is an issue" is really just awful and a bad excuse. If this is true then you are outing yourself for no reason, and the best response is /replace out if your real life is getting out of hand to play this game. Real life comes first, then mafia. If the time restraints are part of your role then it only makes me think of this: "time bomb".
^^ ad hom. i haven't read to page seven. would you prefer i not vote as i read? voting keeps me active and helps to elicit discussion and work towards a lynch. if you have a "strong case" then why are you asking me for it? why not present it yourself? why not accept the help that my vote offers in regards to lynching someone you seem to be implying that you agree is scummy?dtmaster wrote: 3. This is after RVS. IK developed much stronger tells after the RVS around page 7. To base your vote on the RVS this late in the day is just plain dumb when you have a slew of information to look at and develop that strong case .
okay. at this point, would you say i am a worthwhile target for nk? by virtue of my playstyle i tend to avoid being killed at night. check my meta if you need to. by claiming the role but not divulging what it is makes it even less likely that i will be killed at night which makes it more likely that i will make a successful night action. kind of a trade off. and if scum nk's me and succeeds, well then, you will know exactly who and what i am. end result, no harm done.shrine wrote:Nothing good came from that, I hope you know. Disclosing which players have power roles helps scum in that they gain a better idea of which players are more worthwhile to target. If anyone is going to be hit at Night, we want it to be a Vanilla Townie. It gives the power roles more life and gives the Town, in general, an edge against scum.
^^ funny coming from someone named the "idiotking". short answer: no. it would have been idiotic if i had pretended to read the thread, but what i did was actually make a rather clear statement of my suspicions based on the rvs. did i clarify why? no. but i certainly clarified my suspicions and provided the proper timeline. omgusing isn't going to help your defense if you are town so i suggest you take a different track.ik wrote:Don, don't you think it would have been a smart idea to read through the whole thread before making an idiotic post like that?
why not? see above for my explanation. what is wrong with the claim? as much as i have not substantiated my vote on ik with a mountain of quotes and evidence, only one player has tried to lay ouit exactly why my claim was bad, and i have responded accordingly.zach wrote:Don, why the hell did you claim power unprovoked like that?
questioning? yes. pointing fingers? no. besides the "too scummy to be scum defense", the wifom, unprovoked claim, and unsubstantiated vote, there has been no focus on my slot all day. no reason to start now. did idiotking flip town? without his flip none of you can accurately judge my actions. and yet some of you are trying. i am amused.jason wrote:you are making a vote for scum... on page 17 after going only on the RVS and what you have read so far. you can see why everyone is questioning you and pointing fingers at you right?
if i leave my slot "not voting", it would be abigger problem, no?drk wrote:I have no problem with someone making a vote based on the RVS. The game would go nowhere if people didn't. Making a vote based on the RVS as we're approaching a deadline? That could be a problem.
1) no. but looking back, we have five days. is it an issue? have we some sort of consensus on a deadline lynch?drk wrote:@don
Before I give any opinions on the situation, there are two things I'm interested in knowing:
1) Were you aware of the coming deadline?
2) How bad are your current time constraints?
2) not bad, but my unexpected v/la set me back and i am now starting school while juggling work and family. seat time at the cpu is harder to come by. if you've read me before you should be able to notice the difference. i am generally an active player. recently(and not just in this game) i have had to compromise my usual methods in a number of ways. i'm doing a lot less reading and rereading and looking more at behavioral trends, iso reads, rvs tendencies, and voting patterns. not necessarily ion that order.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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you do realize that you are both trying to push a lynch on a claimed town pr on day 1?
both dtm and ik seem to be misrepping me just a bit here.
please point out where i said i "shouldn't" have read. i am missing something there.
dtm: the rhetorical question was there to prove a point. if you would like to engage in a theoretical discussion about the value of the rvs then by all means pick a side and begin to argue, but its a waste of time. i think the rvs can be a useful tool in many ways. if you disagree then so be it. i didn't want ik's answer because it would begin the circle of ridiculous theory discussion we don't need right now.
saying i am "bad" is ad hom. it is fail logic and you should all know that.
^ misrep. i never said i was all knowing or all mighty. if a pr claim has merit when it can be supported through investigations, etc. why are you voting for me? its day 1. if i am scum i know have to live a lie. if i am town, then there should be ways to corroborate my claim, as well as the distinct possibility that i may be nk'd. lynching day 1 is about the least sensible solution to this issue. i have not asked to be above scrutiny. i am just pointing out that it is rather silly to bother with it now when it can be addressed in so many more logical ways at a later time.dtmaster wrote:Claiming PR doesn't make you all mighty and all knowing good sir. Nor does it clear you. A PR claim only has merit when it cannot be counter claimed and can only be supported through cop investigations, and/or watcher/tracker night actions.
please explain this "scum" gambit.dtm wrote:Right now I question your motives right here and now. To me it smells of scum gambit, not pro-town scum hunting.
now you imply i am setting some sort of trap with a rhetorical question when said question is clearly labeled "rhetorical" and no follow up has been made. i am not stupid and i really don't know why you are trying to imply that i am. oh wait, yes i do:
unvote, vote dtmaster
you fit a scum profile to a T. you are using bad logic to try and cast suspicion on a claimed town pr, contradicting your own reasoning regarding how to deal with it, misrepping me while defending ik, and all of this with a little bit of ad hom.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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you are twisting words out of context. my statement was a response to your question. you ignored the rest of my response and are focusing on a particular phrase which does not accurately represent the gist of our exchange.
my vote on dtm is rather symbolic. i think both of these players are scum.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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sorry to hear that. i am not replacing out. not sure what you expect to me other than "after reading the rvs it seemed to me as though ik is scum". there's no "deep" analysis involved. get over it. if you are town then make yourself a bit more useful. when i replaced in and failed to get caught up you didn't care at all about me. now you seem to "need" my participation. guess what? i am participating. i have laid out my suspicions and if i have the chance to read more and post more i will, until then you need to move on or dig in. i suggest moving on because i am not going to respond to strong arm tactics and insults.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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sorry but no. i haven't read the game and i never said the rvs is the most important part. i also didn't argue that rvs is black or white. i simply implied that it is foolish to assume one can't use it as a scumhunting tool.hiphop wrote:@don They are not trying to say the rvs isn't important, they are saying that you should not use the rvs as your only source of information. You seem to me as if you think the rvs is the most important part of the game. After I have read the entire game, I don't think that idk in the rvs is suspicious. If you read it you wouldn't think so either. You argue that the RVS is black and white. Well it isn't. .
chain of events:
dj read rvs.
dj became suspicious of ik.
dj voted ik.
continuing to ask me questions regarding these minimal actions is only going to prevent me from reading more of this thread. if someone has a lynch to propose, by all means, don't let me stop you. there is only so much i can continue to offer on this subject. my claim was meant to try and avoid much of this confusion. ik may very well be scum so harping on my vote is just a wee bit premature. not sure why it is such a big deal.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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^^ okay.
unvote, vote ik
your flip proves nothing about my earlier vote as my earlier vote was based on the interactions of the rvs. your flip will serve better as an indicator of alignment to those who were attacking me based on my vote. but whatever, discussion should continue, but day 1 investigations should end with a vanilla claim. you may or may not be scum at this point, but outing too many roles is poor form. people should be coming down on the side they want here, but as a town, we should agree to move forward with this lynch.
shrine's last post is either misrep or misunderstanding. i am not crediting myself for the FACT that don_johnson is not often nk'd. i realize other players make the choices, but if you read my games you will see why scumdj lives to endgame more often than not and towndj makes it to lylo more often than not.
i'm actually still here and none of you has any idea what my role consists of. we haven't lost anything yet. so again: NO HARM DONE. the above statement seems to indicate you believe my claim, so what purpose does it serve to cast me in a poor light?shrine wrote:- Um, YES. Harm done. No good comes from losing a power role. <_<town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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*facepalm*
requesting a modkill is no different than a day vig attempt. dtmaster is a leading suspect of mine who has admittedly scummy posts. relax. i have no need to remove heat from me. i am a claimed town pr and it is day 1. it is against the rules to discussongoinggames. it is a modkillable offense although in reviewing the rules i see that he can recieve a warning instead. whatever, i would prefer modkill as i think he is scum.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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yes, that's what i mean. thanks. i read the initial statement as oppurtunistic(anyone but me) behavior, but you are clarifying that this is not so.Idiotking wrote:
Well, I wouldn't support a Ryan, DTM, Shine, Zach, or Paradoxombie lynch, if that's what you mean.don_johnson wrote:
what about rc and jason? let me rephrase: are there any lynches you wouldn't support?ik wrote:I would prefer a hiphop lynch to a toro one, but if it comes down to it I'd support either.
i think you are most likely town, but i still think you are a good day 1 lynch. i'll move to jason, but i would rather be sure about you first so as to help qualify my suspicions of everyone now involved. anyone have a better idea?town 39-32
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not sure what the second part there means, but no. i have not read the entire game, nor do i plan to. if i get the chance, i will, but at this point i think I have plenty to go on and it is time consuming enough to stay current.
please explain further what you mean by getting a lynch that makes it easier for me. is the implication that i am scum looking for an easy lynch? or is the implication that i am scum looking for the lynch that will make the game easier for me? or is the implication that i am town and looking for the quickest lynch so that i can read up during night phase? or is it something else?town 39-32
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^^ this is so anti-town that it isn't even funny. when someone "breadcrumbs" a role you certainly shouldn't be calling attention to it. power roles should choose when they wish to be outed and pointing to someone and saying "i think he's saying he has a powerrole" is just plain stupid 99% of the time.ik wrote:And is it just me or did Toro breadcrumb a power role in his most recent post?
just because i think someone is town doesn't mean its odd for me to want them lynched. someone needs to be lynched and if we do it for information its better on day 1 than in lylo. so yeah, ik should be lynched because most of our suspicions of others are based around their actions regarding his bandwagon. how can we qualify those suspicions without having 100% proof of his alignment. he claimed vanilla, we should follow through. i'm not going to tunnel this, but we need his flip. if he flips scum and i am wrong then its a good thing and i am not so egotistical as to think i am always right. he didn't get so many votes on him by accident.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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stay the course. lynch ik. his actions have been questionable and people are tieing themselves to the wagon one way or the other. would another wagon net info as well? absolutely, but we shouldn't be forgetting that ik has already claimed vanilla. with one pr out in the open and a second speculatively soft claimed, further pushing is a bit ludicrous. just because some of ik's recent actions make him look town, it shouldn't excuse his earlier play. its day 1. players are trying to base suspicions off of how other players are acting surrounding the ik wagon, but unless we lynch ik we will not know whether these suspicions have validity. simply lynching one of several other players will leave ik's play in a questionable light. i am not tunneling here, i am playing to strategy. bottom line:
ik has already claimed vanilla. lets lynch him and move on. we have a good shot here at getting at least one succesful night action resolved. lets not endanger what seems to be a strategic high ground for town.
ik: if you are town you definitely need to consider the possibility of the self hammer.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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mod: i approve a deadline extension.
^^ this does not change the fact that i think it is poor form to run someone else to a claim. discuss away, but ik should be our lynch barring unforeseen obvscum behavior. my sceond choice, if i have to see another player run up would be jason. i don't see the case on toro. if someone would care to paraphrase it that would be great.town 39-32
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yes, but only in the situation you are describing. a no lynch would be bad, and lynching someone without a claim, for instance, could be equally as damaging. no offense, but you have claimed vanilla, your actions have been questionable as well as those around you. i find you to be a perfectly acceptable day 1 lynch. if you flip town then i think you will have helped town tremendously as it would confirm many of the suspicions currently being discussed.Idiotking wrote:
Unless it's 5 minutes till the deadline and I'm at L-1, I'm not self-hammering. That's just ridiculous. You're actually advocating for me to self-hammer?don_johnson wrote: ik: if you are town you definitely need to consider the possibility of the self hammer.town 39-32
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^^ absolutely. that's two power role claims you disbelieve and two claimed pr's you seem to want lynched.
rc: the second sentence is what i've been saying all along. many of us have suspicions of others that are based around their interaction with the ik wagon. without confirming ik's alignment the suspicions don't hold as much water. yes, another wagon and another flip would help to confirm things as well, but ik has claimed. i don't see the benefit of forcing another claim with less than 48 hours to deadline when we have a good(and relatively safe) suspect to lynch. just because we are secondguessing his alignment doesn't change the fact that he has now voted for two claimed pr's. am i skeptical of toro? a bit, but not enough to out and out push for a lynch on someone who may be able to be confirmed in other ways. ik is just playing terrible here and is either scum or misguided town. if he flips town he will be a good information lynch and town won't lose a potential power role nor risk outing yet another claim on DAY 1.
i'll lynch jason to avoid a no-lynch. but if he's scum he'll be here tomorrow. if we have a vig they might take him out tonight. we need information to have a productive day 2 and pushing someone else closer to lynch this close to deadline can be extremely detrimental to town.town 39-32
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a) it is day 1. i will absolutely lynch just to avoid a no-lynch. however, that is not what i am doing. i have laid my suspicions out and been as clear as possible with my reasoning. of what significance is my "reading the game"? i am reading it now. i am staying current. if there is something you think is of tremendous importance dwelling in the areas of the game that i have not read, why don't you point them out for me?jasonT1981 wrote:
I really am uncomfortable with this comment, just like I have a few of Dons posts. He will lynch just to avoid a no lynch... yet admits to not reading the game in full nor will he read the game.
please explain the bolded. perhaps show some evidence. i believe i was the first to call disingenuity on that original waffling bullshit sandwich of words you called a post where you talked yourself into oh, what were they again? oh yeah, everyone elses suspicions.jason wrote:He is only going on what has been posted since he came into the game andlatched onto everyone elses suspicions.
i didn't realize my opinions were not my own. how can you say i want "any lynch" when i have specifically and repeatedly been calling for ik's lynch above anyone elses?jason wrote:Just seems he wants a lynch, any lynch without doing the work... he has already admitted he does not want to do the work (reading the game and forming his own opinions)town 39-32
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wow. post 632: huge deflection.
though i would rather be lynching ik i am getting more and more comfortable with scumjason with each of his posts. i ask you for evidence of my behavior and you produce a blanket statement that doesn't address even the core of your accusations against me and vice versa. so again:
dj wrote:1) if there is something you think is of tremendous importance dwelling in the areas of the game that i have not read, why don't you point them out for me?
2) how can you say i want "any lynch" when i have specifically and repeatedly been calling for ik's lynch above anyone elses?town 39-32
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can we please just lynch ik? that's potentially three town power roles out. between jason and toro i am actually more inclined to believe jason. roleblocker is often a scum role. jason should most certainly be investigating toro tonight. protective role(s) should be protecting myself and/or jason. deadline is approaching.
jason, be sure you choose a post where someone professes there alignment. in fact, everyone should right now post a statement of their alignment to make it easier for jason to investigate. if anyone doesn't post their alignment before deadline then jason can either look back and find something on them or we will put them under severe scrutiny tomorrow.
obviously, jason, the above statemement to investigate toro is onnly a suggestion. make up your own mind, but realize we all need to work together to make our roles useful.town 39-32
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i like this beginning. this most likely signals the existence of a second faction, be it mafia number two or an sk. unless we have a successful vig shot? i am going to look back at drk because he was one i had not pegged as anywhere near scum. sufficed to say this is a good start no matter how we slice it.town 39-32
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drk seemed to avoid the toro wagon the most. the buddying to rc was rather extensive and it may just have been scum to town as rc suggests. of note is one early post(15-17 of iso, i think) where drk lists his top suspects regarding the hiphop wagon. jason/paradox/rc/ik. jason remains on his scumdar all day, though the dropping of rc from that list could be something as well. towards the end of the day he seems bent on the ik lynch with jason as his "second". he seems to drop hiphop and due to their interactions and his early defense and hiphopwagon analysis i think hiphop is most likely not aligned with drk. of course, this analysis should not eliminate any of these players from scrutiny as possible sk.
my list of possible partners as of now is: zach/jason/rc/toro and not in that order.
jason: please quote the post of mine that you actually investigated.jason wrote:investigated Dons claim of having a PR as it seemed so vague and I did have some suspicions on him.
i agree with ryan that mafia#2 is less likely than vig/sk. if we have a successful vig, however, they should certainly be claiming at some point today so as to avoid confusion. not to rolefish here, but one successful vig shot should be considered a success from any town aligned players view point. hiding your existence may be problematic if we get to a lylo situation.town 39-32
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please explain this. how is there "no way"? we have no other claimed prs. three prs does not sound farfetched. if toro blocked a mafia goon that could certainly explain the night results of only one nk.ryan2754 wrote: Given the current set up, there is no way all three of them are power roles, given the issue with the NK.
are you implying that mafia killed one of their own? this was mentioned before, but i find it extremely wifomic(if not completely assanine) to suggest such a thing. escpecially considering drk had little suspicion on him day 1. let's stick to the facts, and mafia killing one of their own is quite a bit outside of the realm of "most likely" scenarios here.ryan wrote:Right now, Toro seems most likely lying, as I could see him and DRK making this a mafia RB "block the night kill" ploy, in an attempt to clear Toro while sacrificing DRK.
i do agree with the suspicion of toro. the whole "it was a crapshoot" makes no sense considering toro did express suspicion of a couple players during day1. why he would say "i can be a game changer" and then use his ability supposedly "randomly" makes little to no sense.
vote: toro
i reiterate my request for a vig claim.town 39-32
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though zach is on my shortlist, i have to disagree here. i also asked for a claim as i think a vig claim would be helpful. the problem with vig is that it is easy cover for sk. without a claim we run the risk of carrying a nightkiller into lylo type situations. this is not a good idea. i believe vigilantes should shoot early and claim early. taking a nightkill is better than scum targeting someone else who may have a more important role like cop or doc.Paradoxombie wrote:I see no reason for anyone to claim except near a lynch. Otherwise we are sacrificing the town's power to alleviate our curiosity. Whatever happened last night, it was good, I'm happy. I'd be happy if it happened again.
FOSZach for asking for a vig claim. What WIFOM are you talking about? How would a claim help us besides getting our vig killed? And even if they claimed we'd still suspect them as an SK.
i think 711 is better reasoning for an FoS than 710.town 39-32
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^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.zach wrote:Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.town 39-32
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we have no guarantee that toro rb'd anyone. he should most certainly be lynched, especially due to the fact that drk avoided him like the plague on day 1. i don't find it suspicious for paradox to change positions when posed with the reasoning i gave him. 721 seems like a bit of rolefishing, so more scumpoints for zach in this exchange. let's analyze some other players before we end the day, as unless we get a scumclaim i think we can agree that toro is the lynch.
i'm pretty sure paradox is town and am on the fence with zach, so i would like other players to post their opinions.town 39-32
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^^ what? noone got thrown under a bus, toro, drk was nk'd. personally, i think anyone perpetuating the idea that mafia killed one of their own for wifomic effect deserves a hearty FoS.
your contributions are lackluster and roleblocking power in your hands is not all that useful. i'd rather know your alignment as it would help us determine what happened last night. i think that's the most helpful way to use you even if you are town.
who did this?toro wrote:Just saying 'I don't believe' and just throwing down a vote on a PR is just stupid.town 39-32
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please detail this. it is a very suspicious statement. i thought drk was obvtown for the better part of the day yesterday. to me it looks way more like an sk picking a town target.ryan2754 wrote:Personally, I think it was a vig kill over an SK kill, given my analysis of DRK's interaction with IK.
FoS Ryanjust an odd thing to say here. if you can back this up with evidence i will retract my statement.town 39-32
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i understand. i am just wondering why your interpretation has gone from vig/sk to vig. drk presented more town in my opinion than he did scum. a vig would aim for scum, an sk would most likely target town on night one. just because he flipped scum does not mean it was a vig shot as opposed to sk. the fact that he presented as townie makes me lean more towards and sk target. also, i am a strong believer that if vig exists they need to claim, so by not claiming today i have to operate on the basis that vig does not exist. a vig claim later in the game would have to be interpreted as an sk fakeclaim thereby leading to a potential mislynch if vig actually exists.
ryan: you said-
i asked you to explain this and you have not. the post you directed me too does not explain this statement at all. please detail what interactions you are referring to and why, after ik flipped town, that a vig would target drk.Personally, I think it was a vig kill over an SK kill,given my analysis of DRK's interaction with IK.town 39-32
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now you're making sense, and thank you for the claim. i still think we should follow through with the toro lynch.
ryan:
1) are you comfortable with letting us help direct your kills from here on out?
2) do you agree that as a safety precaution we need to be rid of you before a lylo or similar situation?
3) in regards to (2), would you be willing to self vig if necessary?
we now have:
town
roleblocker
dj(unknown)
lie detector
vig
scum
goon
may be premature to call town overpowered, but i find toro's claim the most suspicious. i think alot of what we do is going to depend on his flip. if he flips town i suggest protective role(s) randomize their selection(s).
with a town flip, perhaps the vig should hold their fire this evening?(thinking out loud here)
thoughts?town 39-32
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my point here is that you are not confirmed just because you claim vig. yes, lynching the claimed vig is bad in lylo, but wifomic, as(depending on the circumstances) you could theoretically be the last scum(if two factions), or an sk. i just don't like carrying nightkillers too long, which is why is suggest the self vig, as a lynch of a town vig is a veritable wasted lynch. but obviously these are all subjective trains of thought. you do seem aware of the implications and i appreciate your take on not killing, however, even that does not confirm you. at this point, you are town vig to me and that is how i will be reading this game. hopefully we can find the rest of the scum before any of the sticky situations arise.ryan wrote:2.) No, I think that is completely unnecessary, and I will show why in a minute. Not to mention, a vig is a TOWN-ORIENTED person, and lynching them in a lylo is a bad option, since it a town-confirmed individual and at that point I feel many other options would be available given the small number of players.
knowing now that drk was killed by ryan is good. i'd like more opinions and ideas, however, before we lynch toro.town 39-32
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weak hammer. but we'll see. good point about hiphop/toro. toro's inability to participate makes him a good information lynch if he flips town, so i'm not going to be too upset about this. hopefully we've nailed the scum roleblocker.
if we have protective roles, do not protect the vig, please. ryan, do what you think is best, but realize protecting you would be poor town play. good luck. the helpfulness of my night action results depend on the flip, so i will try to post in twilight.
requesting doc protect if i don't get the chance.town 39-32
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interesting. toro's play was sub par the entire game. how can someone dissappear when they have barely ever appeared in the first place? also, i'd love for you to reference games where self voting was used as a scum ploy. imo, more often than not, self voting is a desperate town measure or a townie's last ditch gambit. i am becoming more inclined to think toro is exactly who he says he is.icemanE wrote:TBH, I'm not a huge fan of big summarative posts. I prefer to reread the game as a base for my own understanding, and then jump immediately into the relevant issues at hand.
As far as the lynch today, I would have hammered myself based on Toro's self-vote alone. In my experience, self-voting is almost always a scum ploy. Additionally, calling for your own lynch as he did is a scare tactic. He also essentially disappeared when the pressure mounted, at least in terms of his actual participation in the game.
DTM 767 is a false dilemma as far as i can see. hopefully we can get some explanation tomorrow.town 39-32
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no to the first question. the fact he was basically quicklynched, the fact that he self voted, and the fact that he didn't really adjust his playstyle at all when he was under pressure lead me to believe he may have been telling the truth here, but we'll have to wait and see.iceman wrote:So because you think I'm wrong, you think toro is right?
That looks like a scum move to me. You would know if he's town if you're scum.
your last sentence is the exact opposite of groundbreaking deductive reasoning. it applys to any player who would be scum.
if you're going to call me scum, you better bring a bit more to the table.town 39-32
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if ryan is not vig, then he is most likely sk. i would be fine if scum counterclaimed the killing. it would be in their benefit to lynch sk as sk's are usually unightkillable. occam's razor points to a two person scum team and an sk. without the roleblocker active the scum kill would most likely have gone through making it appear we still have two killing factions. i am fine with a hip-hop lynch, but the fact that this game is still going on raises suspicion of ryan who i had yesterday as town.
need more input from others, though, if there is another scum then they could easily be lurking.town 39-32
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a) how would we know if he disobeys? he could be sk.Paradoxombie wrote:
Like I said, I'd be willing to do that on the condition we vow to kill him if he disobeys.
Does anyone else think a massclaim might be a good idea?
b) no need to massclaim, but i won't oppose it. we are ahead of the curve right now. mass claim is better reserved for times when town has nothing to go on.
ryan: i want to believe you are town. in fact, you were the only one i felt sure was town going into night phase, but i cannot ignore the possibility that you are a clever sk, and i wouldn't be doing my job if i did ignore it.
imo possible set-ups:
1) 3 player scum team, nine townies
2) 3 scum, 1 sk, eight townies
3) 2 scum, 1 sk, nine townies
4) 4 scum?, eight townies
5) 2 scum, 2 other scum, 8 townies.
set-ups 2,4, and 5 are less likely, but i have seen plenty of games with set-up 3 and 1 to not bat an eye at the possibility. rethiking and i would be less opposed to a massclaim now, but if we do claim we need to have a strategy going into night and unfortunately, scum will be privvy to that strategy. a no-lynch should also be an option here, that is, we could just let ryan pick off hiphop at night. i certainly agree he is one of the most suspicious.town 39-32
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we won't have his vote if we lynch him. how do you know zach didn't watch ryan? why does town need to "gamble" at this point? seems to me we could win easily if we play our cards right?DTMaster wrote:@Don
a. It's called a gamble at this point. Since Zach didn't watch Ryan we cannot confirm him through watcher powers. Since he's been able to snipe scum, I'm willing to trust him. If he disobeys we'll be in lylo tomorrow and we can lynch him then for being SK. If there is scum left then we will need his vote.
usually is not always. i have played in many games with odd set-ups. never more than four scum, but i have played in all of the amentioned set-ups in twelve player games.dtm wrote:b. Your setups break the 3 scum rule for setups 2,4,5. Usually its 3 scum in this setup and if there was 4 with a vig/sk in the mix we would need to literally kill scum everyday to win and lynch on the final day or we lose. If there is 3 kills a day and 2 of them are townies. It's too much for a max of 12 people.
didn't see it. let me look...dtm wrote:c. Why did you ignore my question?
we have two nightkills per night indicating two killing factions. simplest explanation is two scum factions. most likely set-up with two scum factions is 2man scum team and 1sk imo.dtm wrote:How is it simpler to have an SK and a 2 man scum team then a traditional 3 man scum team?
thinking out loud:
a vig with multiple shots is a possibility, but then why wasn't vig targeted by mafia? if they were a two man team they would have suspected him to be sk and would need to get rid of him. if they were three man team then they would suspect him to be vig. again it makes sense to target him. in fact it makes more sense to target him if they believe he is vig than if they believe him to be sk. since they did not target him, then they must think he is sk. if they think he is sk then their is most likely only two scum. sk's are often unk and that would explain why they wouldn't target him. protective roles don'tusuallytarget vig's due to the wifom surrounding their alignment, so i don't see any reason for scum to fear killing the "vig". anyways...
maybe. did you?dtm wrote:Did you get anything in the night to help us?town 39-32
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ebwop: in regards to the four scum set-ups, their would not be a town vig. in those set-ups, and in fact, any of the set-ups with an sk, their would be no town vig. three killing factions is unlikely, especially considering we only have two kills per night for two nights in a row.
so far:
zach: town watcher(claimed)
ryan: town vig(claimed)
don: town pr(claimed)
toro: town roleblocker(confirmed)
if sk exists then it is most likely ryan. it is beyond reasonable to think he is scum gambiting for the sk to expose themself.town 39-32
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not clever. just not stupid. possibility exists that you are sk.ryan2754 wrote:
I understand you, but you seem to further implicate that I am an SK more and more with every post, subtely trying to get the town to think that way. Very clever.don_johnson wrote: ryan: i want to believe you are town. in fact, you were the only one i felt sure was town going into night phase, but i cannot ignore the possibility that you are a clever sk, and i wouldn't be doing my job if i did ignore it.
implication of two kills per night. not sure why mafia would have had the goon doing the killing though...ryan wrote:
We have not had 2 NKs every night. Toro RBed one night, remember?don_johnson wrote: we have two nightkills per night indicating two killing factions. simplest explanation is two scum factions. most likely set-up with two scum factions is 2man scum team and 1sk imo.
yes.ryan wrote: I feel SK would be more important to kill for mafia than SK. When I have played as mafia, and seen a Vig, I have usually let them go, because their track record is usually not that good. I assume the mafia assumed I wouldn't kill (like I said I might) and at tops wouldn't get another mafia either. Either way, whether or not I am SK or Vig, they should have killed a confirmed power killing role.
beyond reasonable means not reasonable. i don't think you are gambitting scum. you are either vig or sk.ryan wrote:
What do you mean by the last sentence?don_johnson wrote:if sk exists then it is most likely ryan. it is beyond reasonable to think he is scum gambiting for the sk to expose themself.
You think I am scum gambiting (3rd scum) trying to get the SK (2nd killing faction) to out himself? Good God.
I thought you said 3 scum 1 Sk was extrmeely unlikely?
massclaim is fine. first i want to know zach's targets both nights.ryan wrote:Let's just end this discussion now.
I am a vigilante, town aligned.
There is 3 scum, most likely the last having some powerful role (since all we have killed is a goon and a ninja).
We need a mass claim. I have a feeling it would put this game to rest.
Anybody do an ISO read of RC or Jason?town 39-32
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good.
ryan: i am fairly convinved you are town due to your gameplay and target choices. i am formulating a plan that should result in a town win. it will take cooperation between you me and zach. i am just as if not more convinced that zach is town based on the fact that he claims watcher, picked sensible targets, and we have a confirmed ninja.
i have reason to believe paradox is town which leaves the final scum among:
hiphop
dtm
icemane
my plan should eliminate these three players and ryan before a lylo situation would have the chance to occur. personally, i think if we do it right we can win by morning. in any case, the claims won't hurt.
i am doctor.
today we lynch hiphop. if game continues then my plan is that i protect zach and zach watches me. ryan is left unprotected but has the green light to nk one of dtm/iceman. even if scum choose not to hit our "vig", we can continue lynching down the line into a three person lylo of zach/don/ryan. obviously, this plan rests on the three of us trusting each other to the point that we know that if this situation occurs then the game should already be over. if it isn't, well then, most likely scenario is that ryan is sk and zach and i lynch him. i doubt it will come to that as i have already stated i believe the three of us to be town. thoughts?town 39-32
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