/in-vitational 3: Brass & Shrapnel. Over. before 831

[Budja]

@Kublai, what about hasdgfas then?

vote Kublai

[Budja]

@mod, I already voted.
In case it wasn't counted,

Vote: Kubai Khan

.

Fixed.

[Budja]

Do you have a good reason on why you're making sure the mod has me at L-2?

Just making sure my original vote went through. Any reason why I shouldn't be?

I think it was a great way of getting out of the much hated RVS. Sure, it's weak, but it's legit.

Agreed here. It was a quick end to the RVS and not scummy.

lol,

unvote, vote Hasdgfas

for taking a first random/irony joke vote trying to run with it.

Feels like a scummy attempt to return to RVS.

unvote, vote curiouskarmadog

[Budja]

I wouldn't say its a chainsaw defence at all. CKD's attack/vote on you is weak anyway and feels quite a lot like a random vote. You certainly don't need defending.

Buddying? Your interpretation, not intended.

My vote is better placed here than on Kublai.

[Budja]

Ok, maybe it is more of a bad-reason vote than a random vote, It looks like the kind of reasoning that is used for semi-random votes.

[Budja]

...then it really looks like you're trying to squash that discussion because you don't like the direction it's headed.

Basically what I meant.

it was. you are voting me because I want to return to the RVS? How is that scummy? How do you think as scum returning to RVS is helpful for scum?

RVS = less discussion.
Not the best of reasons, true, but better than anything else so far.

[Budja]

/prodded.

...he's being voted for for things he did during the RVS

So? We seem to have barely passed the RVS and I see no better leads yet.

@Kublai, my vote was semi-random as I did had a reason.

@CKD, voting for someone for pushing out of the random stage could have an effect of dampening communication and is generally bad reasoning. I dislike that.

[Budja]

I don't get it.

me: "voting for someone for pushing out of the random stage:"
commenting on your post here: "for taking a first random/irony joke vote trying to run with it."

No contridiction here.


me: "..return to RVS."
me clarifying: "maybe it is more of a bad-reason vote than a random vote"
me clarifying again: "could have an effect of dampening communication and is generally bad reasoning."

Two points here: poor reasoning and encouraging stopping communication by voting for someone who did attempt to leave the random stage.

I may be interpreting meaning you didn't intend but that is how I basically see it.

[Budja]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 55#1832655

[Budja]

(back)

This seems silly. Putting back to RVS would reduce discussion, but

voting someone for trying to do that also dampens discussion?

How does that work?

I don't understand what you are saying here.

[Budja]

unvote

, I still think it was a poor reason for a vote but you've made your point.

I have been looking too and TBH the setup looks pretty hard to use.

Bombs look more likely to damage the town than scum (unless most vig's shoot blanks).
Bombs' claiming could give vigs a free reign, but with a fakeclaim and the possbile mafia doctor ability, it could be a free reign to kill townies.

[Budja]

Kublai's idea is better, the lynched is either scum is which case the hammer doesn't matter or they are town and scum get no input on who hammers.

[Budja]

vote Quag

, if its not yet deadline.

I see quag's posting history less active than Kublai's and that comment on hascow was moderately scummy.

[Budja]

Yes, I did know it was a couple of hours after deadline but I voted anyway, mainly to show my position on the lynch. I didn't know if my vote would be counted or not.

Need to reread, really not got a feel for this game at all.

Likewise.

[Budja]

For clarification, none of my votes were really random.

[Budja]

Ok, ok, reading back I found this post on page 2.

unvote looks like he is actually trying to get conversation started. Has, do you usually attack obvious joke votes during RVS, or is this a change in play style..if so why?

This was just before my initial CKD vote and drama. So I guess I have to accept that I am wrong here. Still I don't my actual reasoning (assuming this post didn't exist) was as poor as suggested.

Quagmire did still stick out as moderately scummy (quite high in comparison as most reads are null) so I don't know how much can be gained by looking at his wagon.

Still having trouble getting reads. Kublia's early game wasn't great, I dislike has's intent to vote me without explanation (maybe a little OMGUS). Nothing much else is standing out.

[Budja]

A bad case on anyone is scummy, regardless of the resulting alignment when the object of that case dies.

Quagmire had a pretty poor case on has at that point. Doesn't that mean by your own logic he would be scummy.

I am alright with Kublai's attack on Quag. If Quagmire had a reasonable point against has, then it would be bad, but I think Quagmire was reaching with his case and Kublai's vote was a decent reaction.
Doesn't look chainsaw-y to me.

People need to post more, even a little. I have limited reads right now.
(I little hypocritical I know but still... ).

[Budja]

I did interpret moles original post as that you had a bad reasoning for the case while he had good reasoning.

I dislike the chainsaw defense argument here. Attacking a player for a weak/non-existent attack on someone else is not scummy. If Quag had a good case, you would have a point but he certainly did not.

Quagmire had a pretty poor case on has at that point. Doesn't that mean by your own logic he would be scummy.

Well?

Yeah, I do see mole as scummier than Kublai but my vote still withheld. I don't really want L-1right now.

[Budja]

Nice insightful posting there .

How about a little setup discussion.
@all, how do you feel about a bomb-claim?

[Budja]

Eh, I asked the question as it appears to have roughly even pros/cons in my view. Now quag (bomb) is dead, it is probably more of a bad idea.
Note that it would give the vigs a free reign and well as the mafia.

Why would a super-saint claim be better? It gives scum a free target (much like with the bombs claiming) and reduces the risk of hammering to scum (which would discourage quickhammers by scum in LyLo).

[Budja]

I can't see any advantages to really be gained from the set-up either. Bombs and supersaints can be town or anti-town depending on the situation.

ML is suspect with his voting hoping around and request for a wagon.

I don't see it as so bad as he is explaining his reasons.
Having a wagon is not bad, but with mole's general apathy not much is happening.

Since Budja is offering a virtual L-1 at this point.

I am still torn on this. I would vote if I was more confident but mole's behaviour is borderline enough that I don't really feel like lynching him, for now at least.

Kinda a scummy suggestion there, Budja.

Do you think my question was scum-motivated then? Is a bomb claim that bad?

@CKD, why did you abandon your case on me? You seemed pretty convinced before.

[Budja]

everyone is waiting...for something to happen.....

With this attitude, nothing will happen.

.if there had been a scum flip yesterday...yeah...I would be on you

Whats with all the ellipses?

[Budja]

EBWOP:

Insert after the scond quote:

"What difference would that make?"

[Budja]

OK, how about a claim now then mole. If you are a supersaint, I'd prefer to know earlier than later here.
I'd prefer one of the inactives to hammer in that case.

[Budja]

viewtopic.php?p=1879634#1879634
V/LA

[Budja]

Ok, I'm back now.

Macavity is right, this is essentially LyLo. +town for bringing it up. Why not wait for the scum-kill to narrow down our options?

I suggest no vigs use their action, at least not yet.

CKD, your case is weaker than mole's .

[Budja]

A bit paranoid there CKD, I was just pointing out that I believe you case to be weak.

I find both yours and Kubai votes scummy considering it is LyLo. Are you planning on unvoting or are you that sure of your case?

[Budja]

That is extremely crap logic, CKD .

[Budja]

SO...either you or I are scum..and clearly we are the two lynch canidates today....

You may communicate with them at all times in this quicktopic thread.

Sounds about right to me. The scum could coordinate for a quicklynch.

If either of you is a super-saint, I think you should claim. Then the other can hammer the supersaint killing you both. Thoughts?

[Budja]

Actually, ignore my last post for now.
If the mafia quicklynch, the vigs could probably kill that person tomorrow, even through a doctor protection. Making a quicklynch a poor move for scum.

(24c) Role actions submitted during Afternoon resolve instantaneously, according to the role resolution table found below.

@mod, does this mean the mafia could make their kill at any time of day?

[Budja]

The scum team

is

two. A quick-lynch is not really an optimal scum-tactic despite it being LyLo.

My "role-fishing" would be a good plan if the mafia did have an incentive to quicklynch and one of you making one of you/Kublai likely scum.

[Budja]

You are missing my point.

From your logic before, you believed Kublai to be likely scum as a quick-lynch has not happened and it was LyLo.
In this case, my idea is decent.
I showed that a quicklynch was not optimal scum-play and hence one of you need not be scum.
So my idea is not so good. So I retracted my idea.

BTW, if you think I am scum, just say it.

[Budja]

vote: CKD

I really dislike your current play. The poor case, immediate vote and general wishy-washyness.

[Budja]

Well, My case doesn't run solely of gut.

I dislike your position on me. Your strong Budja = obv-scum view died a bit suddenly, I don't seriously think my hammer should have influenced you so much. Then said I was neutral and now you say I am scummy again when I start trying to make a decent plan here.

I dislike your attack of KK. It is weak and clearly built on a fallacy and yet you stick to it. you placed a quick first vote in probable LyLo.

You play-style is looking very uncertain/wishy-washy. Hard to explain so call this gut if you wish.

Ok, its not watertight but its a damn sight better than anything else I can see.

---

Another, far more obvious, reason for scum not to quickhammer is supersaints .

Scum might not kill due to possible bombs. Since the player-list is shorter, they might be trying to play in a "nightless vanilla" style. So this may not necc. be LyLo. (obv. don't rely on this).

[Budja]

Mildly townish. Kublai is active and I don't mind his recent posting.

[Budja]

@Poro, explanations are nice.

@KK, After my previous posts I think a claim is bad at this point. Its the only thing stopping scum from quick-hammering or killing.

@CKD, that certainly not a point in his favour, but its not really a scum tell. I found both Quag and mole scummy too, mole less so.

[Budja]

OK, the scumteam has to be Kublai/CDB. (hopefully).

If Kublai is town then mafia should immediately shoot him, winning the game. So CKD and Macavity are not scum.

So it must be the mafia kill.

unvote, vote: Kublai

[Budja]

It

had

to be a quickhammer.
Macavity was right.
If KK was not scum, we were dead. Scum could just kill him (a safe shot to kill a vig) and the town would lose.

Prepare to be proved wrong CKD (hopefully in a good way).

[Budja]

vote CDB

CKD and Macavity are both obv. town.

I was thinking of claiming but I don't think role-based info is worth giving the scum a free shot.

[Budja]

Maybe he didn't realise the implications. But it was an odd move.
I guess it could be a gambit to give Macavity the win, but that feels unlikely.

Ok, I guess I'll reveal the main reason behind my suspicions.
I am a vig.
I tried to kill CDB yesterday immediately after Porochaz's death (I was sure one of them was prob scum and it was LyLo) but failed.
I did kill hascow (solely on gut) so I am not a blank shot.
So I was either roleblocked or CDB was doc-protected.

I am guessing that doc-protected is more likely so I am voting CDB.

(and elimination does suggest CDB as scum as well as I mentioned before).

Yeah, I am risking the scum-kill here but its probably worth it.
I don't think anyone else should claim. I'm not a great scum-kill and I don't want them to narrow down their options without risk.

[Budja]

Unless they also targeted hascow, they did not.

That is why I was uncertain whether the scum would kill in LyLo.

[Budja]

I am killing CDB.

[Budja]

Yep.

Just hoping CDB can't roleblock now .

[Budja]

I sent the kill about a day before that. Remember that kills don't resolve until the end of morning.

[Budja]

Nothing that I can see.

vote: CDB

I am willing to bet that 4) is false. It looks unlikely enough to me and I am getting strong town-reads on CKD and Macavity.

[Budja]

CDB hasn't been posting but he could still have PMed the mod.

I'd like a mass-claim now, CDB first. A scum kill isn't going to end the game anymore.

[Budja]

Well it removes one possibility anyway.

vote:No lynch

But if CBD is a roleblocker (or less likely if I am blank) we are back to square one.

[Budja]

@CKD, since its in brackets, it may or may not be in the role PM. So it might be able to be used multiple times regardless of successful protections.

[Budja]

done.

[Budja]

Well, that removes one possibility at least.

vote: CDB

, of course.

I still want CDB to claim.

[Budja]

Still waiting on CDB here.

After further thought I am beginning to suspect I may be a blank shot (despite the odds) with the amount of attention CDB seems to be giving us.

[Budja]

(despite the odds)

[Budja]

I don't know with 100% certainty.

I assumed it was me as I submitted him as a kill that morning. It could have been scum or another vig and I could be a blank shot but that option felt pretty unlikely and coincidental.

[Budja]

I was hoping for super-saint but I guess you'd have to be stupid to fakeclaim that .

TBH, I am having trouble finding a case of CDB with his limited posts. I am still sure he is scum due to elimination.

Morning ends. Nothing happens.

On a reread from day 2.
I must be a blank vig as I submitted the kill during the morning.
Not that that helps anything at this stage.

[Budja]

Well, no hammer proves Macavity is certainly not scum.

@Macavity, Whatever happens, do NOT claim. If you are not a bomb, scum could kill you for a auto-win (I'd be autolynched at that point).

[Budja]

That's proof CKD is not scum either. My vote is absolutely fixed now.

@CKD, you have any questions?

[Budja]

I am town .

[Budja]

Its clearly the hammer, and I am town. Still you can wait for the flip to prove it.

Well done Macavity, your set-up analysis was well done and you made the right choice. I'm glad my read on CDB was good despite my vig assumption.

[Budja]

The set-up was virtually uncrackable.

Honestly, by the end I was more worried that CKD was scum than Budja.

I was a little unsure on this too. It would have partially explained Kublai's suicide.

[Budja]

.. but I wanted Porochaz to claim super-saint. Then I could hammer him.

[Budja]

Your big mistake was claiming the Porochaz kill. That made your lynch a certainty and didn't help CDB much either.