Mini 828 - ProzacMod 3 - Lost Mafia - Over

[Locke Lamora]

/confirm.

[Locke Lamora]

I missed my own wagon! Sorry for the brief absence, everyone.

Looks like everything was pretty jokey in the people who jumped on my wagon, I don't see how anyone could have taken it seriously when all I'd done is confirm. I think ZONEACE is scummier for flat-out ignoring what has happened so far, though. We're not far in, I agree, but saying that nothing has happened when serious votes have already started to be placed indicates a desire to perpetuate the RVS.

Vote: ZONEACE

[Locke Lamora]

Agreed, nobody's come in shouting that they're scum and should be lynched. If you think Zoneace saying nothing has happened until someone makes a major slip is acceptable play, I'm guessing you're not expecting very much out of him at all. I don't think preceding his random vote by saying 'nothing had happened' would have made any difference. The fact is, something has happened. Maybe he thinks the reaction to the wagon was unwarranted, maybe he found someone scummy for attacking Drench about it, who knows. Maybe he even thinks everyone is completely neutral after the situation. Not telling us anything and random voting instead just looks like he wants to take us back to a trivial stage of the game instead of trying to make something of what we've got.

[Locke Lamora]

Well, Zoneace's reaction is completely unwarranted and obviously he has a problem with a lot of people on this site, but I think we definitely got something out of it. I agree with Juls' view of Jason, his post 83 is completely unoriginal and there's one comment that screams scum to me:

So yea right now I feel comfortable doing this

That's exactly the kind of thing I've seen from nervous scum before, feeling the need to make your vote look as acceptable as possible when you put it on. I don't understand why you would vote for someone if you're not comfortable with doing it, so why bother saying it?

unvote; Vote Jason

I second EmpTyger's question to Reckoner. I don't see how you can accuse Jebus of being serious with the bandwagon on me on one hand and then take Zoneace's side when he claims that nothing has happened so far. If Reckoner really believed that Jebus was scummy, surely Zoneace ignoring it should be suspicious too?

[Locke Lamora]

It read as though you were trying to excuse your vote. There was also a sense that your opinion could easily change in the near future - you used 'right now' twice in your justification of the vote as though your vote was going to go somewhere else soon. Also, you may say you're comfortable with putting your vote on when you play mafia elsewhere, but you haven't done so on this site.

[Locke Lamora]

No, but the fact that you were already setting yourself up to move your vote is scummy in itself. Combine that with your admission that you'd basically just copied what other people had said and you basically get an opportunistic bandwagonner. Also, you're not putting genuine pressure on someone if you make it look as though you're going to move your vote as soon as you see something else scummy.

[Locke Lamora]

Jason: do you think Reckoner is scummier than Zoneace?

[Locke Lamora]

Did you think Reckoner was scummier than Zoneace as soon as he jumped on your wagon? I'm assuming he only crossed the line into scummier than Zoneace when I asked you what you thought, as that's when you moved your vote.

[Locke Lamora]

I thought it was pretty weak and hypocritical. I'm not a fan of going off 'vibes' as part of a case. Bringing up CDB's role history doesn't help his situation either. Either he was casting some tentative suspicion on CDB through an entirely arbitrary method or he was just messing around with a pointless post. They're both anti-town. I was tempted to vote him but I'm not convinced by Jason, especially as I seem to have prompted him into moving his vote with my question.

[Locke Lamora]

I'm still dubious about Jason moving his vote only after I prompted him but Reckoner is not doing himself any favours. 183 seems implausible to me; surely he would have read back and looked at what was said when people jumped on him for the role post? Not only that, but if he didn't really buy into it, why is he trying to excuse himself now? There's not much to say about 189, it's another worthless post.

Unvote; Vote: Reckoner

[Locke Lamora]

They are all scummy, for reasons I quite clearly explained. I indicated my doubts about Reckoner even when I put my vote on Jason. It's not as though I suddenly just changed my mind and went for him to get on the wagon. Reckoner's last post made it sound as though he's not even taking things seriously; I think it warranted extra pressure.

[Locke Lamora]

Speculating over whether I'd take less blame or avoid notice for getting on bandwagons after they've started is pretty pointless. Zoneace, Jason and Reckoner have all done things I considered scummy, so I voted for them. I even continued to push Jason about his vote on Zoneace after others had stopped because I still don't like the tentative way he voted for him and I didn't want Jason to fade into the background because Reckoner was acting so scummy.

[Locke Lamora]

How did I know there was going to be a Reckoner wagon? That was before he put his vote on Jason and got called out on it; the Reckoner wagon didn't even exist.

I think it was probably sensible for Zoneace to step away from the game for a bit, although having read some meta it seems that his response to the votes was fairly typical of him anyway. I think it's a little convenient that he disappeared just as more votes started to get put on Jason and attention shifted away from him. It makes him a little more scummy in my eyes. I'd like to see some examples of what he thinks is Reckoner trying to appear town instead of just being town.

[Locke Lamora]

VP: in the context of a player freaking out and being abusive over a few votes, I think it's a good decision to step away from the game. Given that Zoneace often adopts that kind of attitude from players and that his decision to step away came not earlier in the argument but when attention had shifted to Jason, I found it made him a little scummier. With regards to voting Reckoner, I thought that his following everyone onto the Jason wagon and not really doing any original scumhunting, as well as making that pointless post about roles.

[Locke Lamora]

Sorry, that should have finished with:

made him scummier than Zoneace and Jason, hence I am voting Reckoner.

[Locke Lamora]

LL:
Okay about 193, but I don’t think Reckoner’s explanation of 183 is implausible at all. Why couldn’t town have misread, and not realized the mistake until a day later?

Town could have misread, yes. What I found implausible was not only the delay but the manner in which he excused himself. I found Reckoner's phrasing and drunken excuse to be over-the-top and insincere. I'll concede that believing him or not is WIFOM-y, though. To me, it read like he was trying too hard to make that role post into something trivial and insignificant, something that he did while he was drunk and not really taking things seriously.

They are all scummy, for reasons I quite clearly explained. I indicated my doubts about Reckoner even when I put my vote on Jason. It's not as though I suddenly just changed my mind and went for him to get on the wagon. Reckoner's last post made it sound as though he's not even taking things seriously; I think it warranted extra pressure.

I didn't see anything scummy re: LL until this post. He seems to be reading too hard into my mix-up with the posts. I can see the "Oh, okay, I don't believe that he actually misread the posts" bit. But what I don't buy is him trying to make it sound like I'm not taking this game seriously due to the mix-up.

I got the impression that you weren't even taking things seriously from this:

4 votes that quick on me?

L. O. L.

Is that an attempt to laugh off suspicion, an indication you think that there are scum on your wagon, what?

CDB: do you think Jason is town?

[Locke Lamora]

What did you make of his votes on Zoneace and Reckoner, then?

[Locke Lamora]

Better in the sense that you thought he had better reasons?

[Locke Lamora]

As I said before, I questioned Reckoner a long time before I put my vote on him about his strange defence of Zoneace. What exactly about my Reckoner vote made you think I was bussing? What were your specific reasons for voting Reckoner?

[Locke Lamora]

The reasons listed in 179 and the earlier approach to the Zoneace situation were also part of my vote on Reckoner. I waited to vote because I wanted to continue pressuring Jason.

So you voted for Reckoner for getting on Jason's bandwagon without giving any reasons?

[Locke Lamora]

I guess I'll continue where we left off yesterday! I also said his vote was weak and hypocritical, not even bothering to put reasons for his vote at first and then even being aware that he was doing the same thing as Jason in using other peoples' reasons. He then throws in the point about vibes (I think to try and look original) which is WIFOM and thus poor reasoning. If you voted for Reckoner for getting on Jason's bandwagon without giving any reasons, how is that so different from people voting for Jason for jumping on the Zoneace bandwagon and copying other peoples' reasons?

[Locke Lamora]

So what about Drench's comment here:

jason is pinging the scumdar.

FoS: Jason

.

No reasons until the next page after being prompted by other players. This is actually almost exactly what Reckoner does, just with a FOS instead of a vote.

[Locke Lamora]

So Jason attempts to follow CDB with the bussing suspicion. Interesting. Couple of points I'd like to make about that post:

Speculating over whether I'd take less blame or avoid notice for getting on bandwagons after they've started is pretty pointless. Zoneace, Jason and Reckoner have all done things I considered scummy, so I voted for them. I even continued to push Jason about his vote on Zoneace after others had stopped because I still don't like the tentative way he voted for him and I didn't want Jason to fade into the background because Reckoner was acting so scummy.

I already gave my reasons for my vote on Zoneace... why continue to push when it was made clear?

Because you'd said earlier that you would shift your vote as soon as you found someone more scummy than Zoneace. Your posts indicated to me that you thought Reckoner was scummier yet you hadn't voted for him. I thought it was appropriate to press you as to why.

How did I know there was going to be a Reckoner wagon? That was before he put his vote on Jason and got called out on it; the Reckoner wagon didn't even exist.

I think it was probably sensible for Zoneace to step away from the game for a bit, although having read some meta it seems that his response to the votes was fairly typical of him anyway. I think it's a little convenient that he disappeared just as more votes started to get put on Jason and attention shifted away from him. It makes him a little more scummy in my eyes. I'd like to see some examples of what he thinks is Reckoner trying to appear town instead of just being town.

Indeed, how did you know? But yes, it was sensible for ZA to step away I believe, we all have blow ups from time to time and it would have made matters worse if he did not take time to calm down.

I don't think it is convient he disappeared though.. he needed to cool down, would you rather he continued to post in the mood he was in (No offence ZA)

First of all, I don't even know what you're trying to say at the start. I assume that's supposed to be a joke, unless you think I have a crystal ball. As for Zoneace stepping away, reread it and look at when he disappeared. Had he stepped away several posts earlier, when it was already obvious it was getting overly heated, I would have thought it was a townie. However, he posts about his last scum games, then CDB unvotes Zoneace and Juls votes for you, with Drench also throwing in a FOS. That's why I thought it was convenient; the pressure had shifted to you so he slipped away.

As to the overall suspicion, it's not a case if you just keep saying 'I get the feeling of bussing' without outlining your reasons, other than a bolded vote showing I voted for Reckoner. I'm not going to bother getting into WIFOM-y arguments about whether scum would or would not bus in this situation, so I think it's pretty pointless to address your comments on the subject. CDB explained his theory on it already if you want to copy his reasoning.

CDB: same question as I asked you yesterday before you disappeared.

[Locke Lamora]

I just found it interesting that we were going back and forth fairly regularly, then when I made what I thought (and you have now agreed) is a good point, you didn't respond. What do you think of Jason saying I'm bussing without actually giving much in the way of reasoning?

For those wondering about Drench (CB mentioned it), he's just requested replacement in another game I'm in.

[Locke Lamora]

So you think I'm bussing because you think I'm scum and you think Reckoner's scum, not because you've seen evidence of bussing like that in CDB's argument?

[Locke Lamora]

Yes, exactly. That's what I was asking. CDB has made the argument that he thinks the timing and reasoning of my vote indicates scum bussing Reckoner after seeing if the wagon would fly or not. You don't have any actual argument for bussing other than the fact you think we're both scum. You said you had a feeling I was bussing but didn't know why. You haven't made a connection between us, you haven't looked at the posts and drawn a conclusion like CDB did, so you don't actually have a case for bussing, do you?

[Locke Lamora]

I just told you I understand. My point is that's not a case for bussing. Read CDB in 243 and 245. That's a case for bussing. Your case is Locke scum + Reckoner scum + Locke voting for Reckoner = bussing. That's just stating the obvious. Not only that, but why did you mention bussing but didn't mention any of CDB's case?

[Locke Lamora]

EmpTyger: why would Jebus be your top choice if you were simply looking for someone to pressure? Because he still hasn't answered your question about his vote on Jason?

[Locke Lamora]

Similar question to the one I asked CDB recently, really. How is this:

jason is pinging the scumdar.

FoS: Jason

.

different from this?:

Jason is definitely setting in my crosshairs...

Unvote, Vote: Jason

Also, what is your read on Jason?

[Locke Lamora]

Everything Reckoner said about his role PM is plausible to me, as is the question he got asked. If there's just one line in there about the marshall dying as history I can believe that. Kate as the cop is the bit I don't like but it could just be in there to stop us guessing the other roles. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and lynch someone else today. I think Jason's unvote has added to his scumminess; it read as though he was doing it because he thought it was a pro-town thing to do.

I also would like to know why CDB backed off so quickly and didn't say anything about the claim.

[Locke Lamora]

LL:

<snip>
I think Jason's unvote has added to his scumminess; it read as though he was doing it because he thought it was a pro-town thing to do.
<snip>

How is that suspicious?

He didn't do it because he believed Reckoner or had another lynch candidate and he didn't question the claim. The way he did it looked like he was unvoting simply because he thought that was the pro-town play, not because he was responding to the claim in a pro-town fashion. It was all a bit too formulaic for me - that's a cop claim, it's not countered, better unvote, as it were. Jason's actually summed it up for me quite nicely above - it's 'the right thing to do'. Considering he found Reckoner pretty scummy before this I'd expect a little more comment on whether he believed the claim or not.

[Locke Lamora]

How did I know there was going to be a Reckoner wagon? That was before he put his vote on Jason and got called out on it; the Reckoner wagon didn't even exist.

whoa really? who had the most votes at the time of your vote? Are you saying that you didnt know there was a wagon forming at the time of your vote?

Which vote? My Jason vote? I was referring to me in 144, at which point a Reckoner wagon did not exist.

I also would like to know why CDB backed off so quickly and didn't say anything about the claim.

better question is why you still have your vote on him.

Because he wasn't in any danger of getting lynched and I was waiting to see how Jason responded to my comment on him before I moved my vote. I don't think he's at all interested in whether Reckoner's claim is believeable or not and that makes me think he's scum whose prime target has made a claim that means it's incredibly unlikely they'll get lynched. All Jason has done is unvote and sit back, waiting to see how this plays out.

unvote; Vote: Jason

[Locke Lamora]

I don't think saying 'I'm the cop' in a 12-player mini is likely to be a slip and I don't see why Reckoner would bother telling us that it says 'a cop' in his PM if he was lying (WIFOM, I know). I think it's probably the phrasing that I would use in a game of this size too, regardless of alignment.

I'd like to point out that Jason has not responded to my vote or commented on the Reckoner claim. Funny how as soon as the guy he was pushing to lynch claims he completely ceases all active contribution to the game.

[Locke Lamora]

Kate as the cop is the bit I don't like but it could just be

in there to stop us guessing the other roles

.

I don't understand what you mean by this comment. Please specifically explain the italicized part.

That was intended to mean that the mod might have given unexpected roles to people to prevent us making assumptions about what role each character might be. Given that this is a very character-specific game, I was suggesting that perhaps the mod had not given every Lost character a role that you'd predict in order to keep the set-up more ambiguous. I was specifically thinking of the recent WWF Royal Rumble mafia game I played in which wrestlers who weren't tag team partners in real life were mason partners in the game and several wrestlers were jobbers (the flavour name of vanilla townie) when they would not have been called that in RL. In short, I was saying that Kate not being an obvious choice for cop shouldn't make us think that Reckoner isn't one.

Looking back, something bothers me.

So uvoting a claimed cop is suspicious? how?????

Not keeping your vote on a claimed cop who is uncountered is the right thing to do I would think

... not scummy or suspicious.

Why do you care what is the "right thing to do" to no be scummy or suspicious.

You should be more concerned with doing what is right for the town

instead of what is right to make you look good.

re: Bolded...I thought that was implied in what I said

What was implied was that you thought you were doing the right thing. I didn't see any particular inclination to help the town, nor did you make much effort to question the claim or direct your suspicions elsewhere if you did believe Reckoner. That implies to me that you thought you were doing the right thing to look town, not to help the town.

CKD: you still think I am the lynch because of your point about bandwagoning? Got anything else in the case on me? What do you think of our current vote leader, Jason?

[Locke Lamora]

Here we go again. You didn't do anything to actively help the town. You thought Reckoner was very scummy, Reckoner claims, you unvote and sit there doing nothing apart from a little minor speculation about how a cop claim fits with Kate and a softclaim. You haven't looked at other targets, which is what you'd have done if you unvoted Reckoner as part of helping the town. Your attitude is that you think you've 'done the right thing' without any strong interest in exploring the Reckoner claim or scumhunting.

[Locke Lamora]

I don't think it's that hard a game to catch up in. It's only 17 pages (and it wasn't even that when Santos replaced in). He really should have caught up by now.

If it's not already obvious, I back a Jason lynch. If anyone really needs me to outline all my reasons again, go ahead and ask. I'm happy to let Reckoner slide for today. I'm not convinced by the EmpTyger case; if I'm honest, the back and forth between Emp and VP was just confusing by the end, I didn't feel like either of them were getting their points across that well.

[Locke Lamora]

I'm voting Jason. No idea where he got that vote on Emp from. That means he is indeed at L-1.

[Locke Lamora]

Richard does appear to have some medical knowledge when he helps Locke when he's been shot in the leg. I guess it fits in with him saving young Ben's life too. He's not the obvious choice for the doctor, of course, but that again would fit in with not giving the characters obvious roles to prevent us guessing the setup.

Is it normal practice for doctor PMs to mention that they can protect cops, rather than just if they can't? I've played an open game with a macho cop but I don't have any experience of doctors who are unable to protect cops in closed set-ups.

[Locke Lamora]

It's possible that he's just not that big a Lost fan and he thought 'Richard Applet' was actually his name. His excessively obvious breadcrumbing seems to indicate that's not the case, though, unless he went and looked Richard up in some detail.

I'm wary of the timing of the first breadcrumb; it comes not long after Reckoner claims and you switched your vote to Jason, I called Jason scummy for his unvote, as well as being in direct response to VP asking Jason if he was scum. Given that Jason was actually the vote leader at this point, I find the decision to start breadcrumbing there suspect - the motivation must have been self-preservation, yet he was incredibly unwilling to reveal his actual role despite his incredibly obvious breadcrumbs. I don't see why he would breadcrumb that clearly at a point when he was the vote leader and then react so aggressively to being asked to claim. What's the point of breadcrumbs if not to verify your claim when you make it?

[Locke Lamora]

That's rich, coming from you, Reckoner. In S5, or any of the seasons for that matter, Kate was never a cop. She spends most of her time in trouble with the law, in fact. Richard fits doctor better than Kate fits cop, so I don't think you've got a leg to stand on there.

[Locke Lamora]

Jason: So you breadcrumbed Alpert to try and reduce VP's suspicion of you?

Reckoner: I meant that Kate as a character in general spends most of her time in trouble with the law. I really can't see how you think that her trying to find out who is trying take Aaron away from her makes her a more credible cop than Richard being the doctor. I don't think either of them is a great match but you attacking Jason for those reasons is ludicrous and makes me think you're getting worried we won't lynch him.

[Locke Lamora]

Jason: I don't see how breadcrumbs would work to alleviate suspicion. It seems unlikely that VP would think 'oh, Jason must be Richard Alpert, I trust him now'. As for explaining why he wants to know if you can protect the cop, I believe that would defeat the point of asking the question.

[Locke Lamora]

If you can't get it from what he's told you then I'm not sure you'll get it at all. I think it's pretty obvious what it means for our claims.

[Locke Lamora]

Given current site meta, I think it would be very highly unlikely that a mod would create a game with a cop and a doc where the doc can protect the cop. It is a very big no-no in a mini because the cop would only have to claim and could be protected throughout the game by the hidden doc. It basically makes it impossible for the scum to win because by the time they find and kill the doc, the cop would have likely either found them or cleared enough innocents that it would be very difficult for the scum to hide.

Unless your PM says something specific about not being able to protect cops or not being able to protect the same person on consecutive nights, I think it is highly likely that Reckoner is lying and I would like to lynch him today.

Obviously I didn't want to divulge my thoughts immediately because, if you are scum, it gives you an easy opportunity to alter your response to my question accordingly.

I can't work out if you're being deliberately obtuse or really don't get this. It's virtually pointless to ask you now anyway, but there it is.

[Locke Lamora]

I really can't believe you're trying to make us both look scummy as well as completely failing to get it. I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. I'm inclined to believe Jason on account of sheer idiocy, I feel like scum would be smarter than this. What I can't decide is if it's worth lynching Reckoner on that basis.

[Locke Lamora]

I really don't like how Reckoner tried to push suspicion back onto Jason by trying to claim Richard wasn't a doctor; having said that, it shouldn't make a difference to giving him the benefit of the doubt tonight because he was already very scummy. Not lynching someone as scummy as he's been is frustrating but with Jason taking the position he is, the best thing to do is lynch neither and look elsewhere, then see how things play out with both of them.

Unvote

, I will be re-reading and working out where my vote should go as quickly as possible.

[Locke Lamora]

VP: so you're leaning towards the Reckoner lynch? Without Jason confirming or denying the particulars of his role, is a lynch based on the cop-doc argument really a good idea?

[Locke Lamora]

You know what, we're too close to the deadline to go in a new direction. Going through what we did with Reckoner and Jason for another person this close to the deadline could be just as risky, if not more so, than lynching a claimed power role.

Vote: Reckoner

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Reaching on the Jason case was the last straw, I'm willing to take the gamble given how scummy Reckoner has been.

[Locke Lamora]

So tell us, Jason, what do you think we should do? We're less than 24 hours from the deadline, we shouldn't lynch you because you've claimed doctor, and we shouldn't lynch Reckoner because he's claimed cop. Any bright ideas?

[Locke Lamora]

Jason - 5 - Juls, ChannelDelibird, Locke Lamora, canadianbovine, Zoneace
Emptyger - 2 - VP Baltar, xReckonerx,
Jebus - 1 - Emptyger
LockeLamora - 1 - curiouskarmadog

Not Voting:
Santos, Jebus, Jason

Please note, insults wont be tolerated.

Deadline will be in 24 hours and 18 minutes.

I think you're right, VP, it is more like 48 hours. Every post up to this said August 22nd at 3PM.

Mod: can we get a clarification on how long it is until the deadline?

Jason: you what? You were considering claiming vanilla? Are you still expecting us to believe you're the doctor after that? Also, if you want a Santos lynch, place a Santos vote.

[Locke Lamora]

I'm pretty sure you would have been lynched if you'd claimed vanilla, and if by some miracle you hadn't, you'd have been lynched if you ever claimed doctor later on in the game (in a massclaim situation, for example). Lying about roles is not pro-town.

[Locke Lamora]

Jason: if Reckoner hadn't claimed cop, would he still be your top lynch target? If your own role matched your character more closely, would you still want to lynch him even with the cop claim?

People need to make their minds up now. There's less than 48 hours to the deadline (regardless of which deadline post you look at) so we really need to see a definitive decision from everyone after this claim from Jason too. We do get a lynch even without a majority but I don't want to see people sliding by and not voting at this stage and given that Jason has claimed now I want to hear what everyone has to say on the matter.

[Locke Lamora]

unvote: vote: jebus

.

Do not support an uncclaimed power role lynch on day 1.

FOS: LL

for coming to the poor logical deduction that we should lynch the cop.

I deduced that we should lynch Reckoner because he's incredibly scummy. He was scummy before his claim and he continues to be scummy after his claim. I didn't logically deduce that we should lynch the cop. However, if you look at the possible outcomes of the situation if Reckoner lives, it becomes apparent that his usefulness is highly limited:

At best we're going to get one result out of him, and that's if both he and Jason is telling the truth. If Jason's lying and Reckoner's telling the truth, Reckoner's dead. If the mafia have a roleblocker, Reckoner's dead/useless. If Reckoner's lying, we're giving scum an extra night (possibly two if he comes up with a guilty and we lynch his target to verify his result). Not only that, but we rush a late lynch on a third target (I think Jebus is now the vote leader), leaving very little time for a claim or debate over that claim.

[Locke Lamora]

Oh, and I'm with Zoneace, people should stop making assumptions about what the logical flavour for each character might be. Jason mentioned a game earlier he was in with Ben as the town cop. Read Family Guy Mafia for another good example of this - you'd never have picked out the characters who were in the mafia. Stewie was town, Bonnie was mafia, etc. Stop assuming that characters you think are pro-town are going to be town.

[Locke Lamora]

Settle down? I'm just trying to dispel the notion that we shouldn't lynch someone because their character in Lost is what we would think is pro-town. What do you think of Reckoner, not his character, but Reckoner's play itself?

[Locke Lamora]

I tried to keep following this game but I honestly had no idea what was going on by the end. In any case, it was fun playing with you all and I hope to do it again, if I'm not doing so already!