Mini 828 - ProzacMod 3 - Lost Mafia - Over

[Jebus]

Prod received, brb...

[jasonT1981]

So you think I'm bussing because you think I'm scum and you think Reckoner's scum, not because you've seen evidence of bussing like that in CDB's argument?

Well if I think you both are scum.. have given evidence to suggest why i think you both are... then it stands to reason I think you are bussing if I see your vote on the other person I suspect of being scum no?

[Locke Lamora]

Yes, exactly. That's what I was asking. CDB has made the argument that he thinks the timing and reasoning of my vote indicates scum bussing Reckoner after seeing if the wagon would fly or not. You don't have any actual argument for bussing other than the fact you think we're both scum. You said you had a feeling I was bussing but didn't know why. You haven't made a connection between us, you haven't looked at the posts and drawn a conclusion like CDB did, so you don't actually have a case for bussing, do you?

[jasonT1981]

My case for bussing is that I presented evidence as to why I feel you are both scum... the fact that one I suspect of being scum is voting the other i suspect.... is that not simple to understand as to how I feel it is bussing?

[Locke Lamora]

I just told you I understand. My point is that's not a case for bussing. Read CDB in 243 and 245. That's a case for bussing. Your case is Locke scum + Reckoner scum + Locke voting for Reckoner = bussing. That's just stating the obvious. Not only that, but why did you mention bussing but didn't mention any of CDB's case?

[xRECKONERx]

I'd like to hear what VPB thought of my response to his case on me.

[VP Baltar]

I'd like to hear what VPB thought of my response to his case on me.

Why so impatient?

The reasoning wasn't solid, I'm saying. Scum motivation for trying to move the game out of RVS isn't there, but neither is any solid reasoning.

Yes, but the town motivation of moving the game along is there, correct? How solid of a case do you think someone should be able to bring before voting that early in the game?

Hey, guess what, you can get vibes from people without knowing their meta. I know, crazy, right? Because some Mafia players like myself don't have time to read through pages of old games just to memorize someone's playstyle.

Your vibes are wrong. You don't have to read through pages of other games to check on these things. If player X always acts angry when questioned as town, then that should become less of a factor in your read of them being scum, correct? I'm not saying you have to discount your vibes, but you have to take them in context as well. Skimming a couple iso reads to look for something specific takes all of about 3 minutes.

I failed to see how that was a misreading of a mistake.

A mistake was printed of jason instead of jacob. Jason misread this as an attack on him when it was really just a failed joke.

I agreed with the wagon and added some ADDITIONAL things that were bothering me re: Jason.

My point is that you sheeped onto the case (which you attacked jason for earlier, iirc) and padded your case with bogus reasons to make it look less than completely obvious.

The best example was his bringing up (i think) CDB's wiki entry. It made it look like he was doing something and being helpful, but in reality accomplished nothing.

This is probably the least valid example available.

Santos has replaced Drench

Hey!

re:bussing talk---please stop. I hate bussing talk when there have been no alignment flips. Find scum and you can do wagon analysis later. Doing it now is more likely scum trying to fabricate reasons for voting, and/or working toward chain lynches. + scum points for jason especially

[xRECKONERx]

*sigh* There's no pleasing you, is there, Baltar?

1. I wouldn't say that "moving the game along" is a town motivation. Moving the game along towards a scum lynch, sure. But scum motivation can be moving the game along towards a town lynch. It's a null tell, really.

2. Pretty ballsy to say that my vibes are flat-out wrong without having any sort of role knowledge.

3. Ah, I didn't even remotely grasp that... thanks.

4. I'll admit that I voted him for primarily regurgitated reasoning (hence me not posting any additional reasons at first) and when I went back to re-read jason's iso, I saw a few extra things that hadn't been brought up that I wanted answered.

5. Well, at least we can both agree on that one.

[Juls]

You seem to say “either Zoneace is town or he’s pretending to be town; therefore he’s town”, which obviously doesn’t follow. You clarify in [214] that you thought Zoneace is town because he wouldn't want to call attention to himself if he were guilty. Except that at that time, he was already at the center of attention!

So, basically, I'm asking you to reconcile your analysis of Zoneace with that fact.

Oh OK. I see what you mean now. When I said "you are town or this is some pro-manufactured rage.", I meant it in more of a "if you are faking this rage then you will have seriously impressed me because I don't think you are faking it". Understand better now?

Am responding to each post as I read them so If it seems I am mirroring anyones thoughts sorry, these are mine at the time of reading them

Preimptive defense noted.

I do not know why, I am getting the feeling of bussing his partner... at this point I am thinking a Locke/Reckoner scum partnership.

I object. Speculation. Move to strike.
Seriously though, I don't like that you use this as a basis for your argument that these two are scum. State your case without this I don't even blink at it...add this and it feels like you are reaching.

I really have got a strong sense of bussing myself actually when it came to you LL.

More of the same. Please, present this case of bussing clearly so we can all see it....cause I call BS.

confirmed

Please give me time to catch up.

Welcome Santos!

Yes, exactly. That's what I was asking. CDB has made the argument that he thinks the timing and reasoning of my vote indicates scum bussing Reckoner after seeing if the wagon would fly or not. You don't have any actual argument for bussing other than the fact you think we're both scum. You said you had a feeling I was bussing but didn't know why. You haven't made a connection between us, you haven't looked at the posts and drawn a conclusion like CDB did, so you don't actually have a case for bussing, do you?

Plus townpoints for seeing what I am seeing.

re:bussing talk---please stop. I hate bussing talk when there have been no alignment flips. Find scum and you can do wagon analysis later. Doing it now is more likely scum trying to fabricate reasons for voting, and/or working toward chain lynches. + scum points for jason especially

Plus townpoints for seeing what I am seeing. Could this be VPB and Juls agreeing on something for the first time in three games?!?!?!?! No way!

*sigh* There's no pleasing you, is there, Baltar?

I can vouch for the truth of this comment (ok, sorry. will stop now. )

[VP Baltar]

@ Reckoner

1) moving the game out of RVS is more likely to be carried about by town than scum. Plain and simple. More often than not, scum are not going to want to be sticking their necks out early in the game by going after people. They would rather wait for a secure wagon to form and then chime in to try and drive it through.

2) That's how I roll.

3) Ok, I dont' even care about this one that much, so agree to disagree.

4) Then why not just say you are voting him for other people's reasons? Yeah, it's not going to look that great, but it looks a lot better than fabricating some garbage to make your case look better.

5) See, I'm not

that

unreasonable.

*scrolls down*

*sigh* There's no pleasing you, is there, Baltar?

I can vouch for the truth of this comment (ok, sorry. will stop now. )

WHAT!!!!!!!

Could this be VPB and Juls agreeing on something for the first time in three games?!?!?!?! No way!

Awww, you know I think you're the tops...even if we both know every game has to end with us entering a winner-take-all bloodbath in the Thunderdome.

[EmpTyger]

VP:

Emptyger, who do you think is scum and why? You've been playing this background investigator role for far too long now.

The answers are “A lot of people” and “I’m not sure”. (Yeah, I know. I’ll elaborate.)

There’s a lot of things that are *wrong* in this game. But the issue I’m having is that Player A will pick up on some *wrong* thing X that Player B is doing- but when Player C, D, or even A themself does X, A either ignores it, or, paradoxically, they’ll say that X is an innocent thing.

So, when I look at players in isolation- I do find some suspicious enough to vote. When I look at the bigger picture, though- I can’t get past that something weird is going on. And I’m more concerned about that weirdness right now than simply making a case against whoever has done the most *wrong* things.

If I had to pick one player in isolation right now: Jason. If I had to achieve an immediate lynch: I’d go along with Reckoner. If I was simply trying to pressure someone: Jebus. But, I *don’t* have to do any of these things right now, I’d rather hear the As to elaborate on the Xs.

(Incidentally, while I agree with some of your sentiments about the current arguments for bussing, I don’t think that’s a reason to not discuss it. In fact, I’d say that that’s a reason *to* discuss. Discussing allows the opportunity to rebut something that’s false, or to get on the table something that’s a possibility. There’s no guarantee that player who notices the possibility will still be alive after the reveal- or the players who would rebut it still be alive either. In short: discussion is good.)

Also:
First you said that Jason's vote on Zoneace was “just sheeping along”.
Then you said that that vote was “scumhunting”.
Now you’re saying that

<snip>
moving the game out of RVS is more likely to be carried about by town than scum. Plain and simple. More often than not, scum are not going to want to be sticking their necks out early in the game by going after people. They would rather wait for a secure wagon to form and then chime in to try and drive it through.
<snip>

So, which is it?

---

Jason:

<snip>
Well if I think you both are scum.. have given evidence to suggest why i think you both are... then it stands to reason I think you are bussing if I see your vote on the other person I suspect of being scum no?

But you haven’t done this.

You’ve said that LL is guilty because it seems like he’s bussing Reckoner…
And then you’ve said that LL is bussing Reckoner because they’re both guilty.
That couldn’t be more circular.

The closest thing to an actual suspicion of LL that I’ve heard is “his vote was opportunistic”- but how was the way he voted any different from, say, how you voted Zoneace? Was that opportunistic of you? Were you bussing Zoneace?

I mean, earlier you attacked Reckoner for being 100% you were guilty, didn’t you? How is this different?

---

Zoneace:
I agree with that logic in theory, but as others have already said, that’s not an instance of it. Or are you implying that Reckoner deliberately misread CDB’s post?

---

Juls:
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Although, I will say that I happen to disagree with your opinion.

While I don’t have any experience with Zoneace, I have seen mafia in other games react this way when they feel they’re getting attention for illegitimate reasons. And I can certainly see it possible for a guilty Zoneace to have thought that he should not be facing a lynch (and perhaps being bussed by Jason?) for the reasons he was. In any case, according to VP, it sounds like this behavior isn’t exceptional enough that it would be difficult for him to feign it if necessary.

[xRECKONERx]

I have nothing else to really say to VPB. I think his case on me is very thin.

[VP Baltar]

So, which is it?

Basically what I am saying is that it reads to me like scumhunting coming from Jason. The does not mean that I think it is good scumhunting, just that he seemed to be trying to his own ability level. I've never played with him before or seen him in a game, so I jumped on him early for "sheeping", but as the game has progressed that seems to be his modus operandi. In other words, my gut is telling me that jason would sheep as both town and scum.

In other news, I don't quite buy your whole 'feeling out the weirdness' thing here. It's page 12 for crying out loud and you haven't voted anyone. What is your exact plan here, wait until deadline and then plunk down on the leading wagon?

Discussing allows the opportunity to rebut something that’s false, or to get on the table something that’s a possibility. There’s no guarantee that player who notices the possibility will still be alive after the reveal- or the players who would rebut it still be alive either. In short: discussion is good.

Discussing something that has no logical reason to be believed either way is a major waste of time on D1. This is particularly true when you start going down the road that jason was heading where the 'bussing theory' was starting to become a scumpoint. In short: not all discussion is good.

You’ve said that LL is guilty because it seems like he’s bussing Reckoner…
And then you’ve said that LL is bussing Reckoner because they’re both guilty.
That couldn’t be more circular.

So you agree with me that it is a horrible discussion point? Why would you think it's a good idea to even bring to the table then?

[EmpTyger]

VP:

<snip>
I don't quite buy your whole 'feeling out the weirdness' thing here. It's page 12 for crying out loud and you haven't voted anyone. What is your exact plan here, wait until deadline and then plunk down on the leading wagon?

No, my exact plan here is, as I just said, to inquire into why some players are making accusations against one player but ignoring or excusing the same behavior in others.

Discussing allows the opportunity to rebut something that’s false, or to get on the table something that’s a possibility. There’s no guarantee that player who notices the possibility will still be alive after the reveal- or the players who would rebut it still be alive either. In short: discussion is good.

Discussing something that has no logical reason to be believed either way is a major waste of time on D1. This is particularly true when you start going down the road that jason was heading where the 'bussing theory' was starting to become a scumpoint. In short: not all discussion is good.

If Jason is innocent- as you say you think: then it’s good to explain to him why the conclusions he’s drawing are wrong.
If Reckoner is guilty- as you say you think: then it’s good to explore with who.

(Unless, of course, you’re confident that you’re going to be able to do these things after Reckoner’s reveal?)

More importantly, if Jason is *not* innocent- a conclusion which I don’t see how you can be certain of: then why are you trying to stop him from incriminating himself?

<snip>
So you agree with me that it is a horrible discussion point? Why would you think it's a good idea to even bring to the table then?

No, I don’t agree that it’s a horrible discussion point.
I think the argument Jason was trying to make is horrible. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be discussed. See above for 3 reasons why.

---

Reckoner:
What about CDB and Zoneace?

[xRECKONERx]

What ABOUT CDB and ZONEACE?

[Locke Lamora]

EmpTyger: why would Jebus be your top choice if you were simply looking for someone to pressure? Because he still hasn't answered your question about his vote on Jason?

[ChannelDelibird]

What ABOUT CDB and ZONEACE?

Touché. I started your wagon.

I feel much better about LL after his recent exchange with Jason. I think I could happily lynch Reckoner or Jason at this stage.

[Santos]

Unvote

FoS: Locke Lamora

, because the evidence against you and your arguments refuting the accusations still make me think you've just been following along in this thread as pointed out by curiouskarmadog. However, as that is most of what is suspicious about you, I would rather keep my eye on you and what you do in the future as opposed to lynching you.

Also, its 7 votes to lynch right, with 12 being alive...6 votes +1 required for majority, etc.

Vote: RECKONER

for his initial reason to move a vote on Jason. Its too opportunistic.

Furthermore, ZONEACE, *facepalm* but I'm glad to see you're more cool headed.

Vp Baltar, hey hey, good to see you

Everyone else and the questions posed to Drench, if you want them answered then please oblige me with presenting the cases again and I will do my best to answer for my predecessor's play, votes, etc.

*after hitting the preview button*

Unvote

I need a vote count and a confirmation of what L-??? we're at so far on RECKONER, please.

FoS: RECKONER

for the same reasons. Right now I'm not comfortable placing a vote in my first post of the game without a more recent vote count on my behalf, if you please

Cheers, I await questions, responses.

[Locke Lamora]

Similar question to the one I asked CDB recently, really. How is this:

jason is pinging the scumdar.

FoS: Jason

.

different from this?:

Jason is definitely setting in my crosshairs...

Unvote, Vote: Jason

Also, what is your read on Jason?

[EmpTyger]

Santos:
Reckoner is at lynch-2. So unless one of these mysterious modquestions doublevoted you or made Reckonere 1 less to lynch, your little stunt shouldn’t have lynched him. Really, why did you vote in [292]?

---

Reckoner:
You’ve said that LL and Jason are mafia, and that VP’s case is weak. What about CDB (who, as he just mentioned, started your wagon) and Zoneace (who is also voting you)?

---

LL:
That, plus the fact that he hasn’t done anything in the past 10 days, and there no longer seems to be any excuse for it. Kind of hard to compare the suspicious things, say, Reckoner has done since then to Jebus’s nothing.

[Jebus]

Hai, been busy recently.

First off, I support the Reckoner wagon (currently reading in isolation, will post later).

Second, in response to Emp from way back, that was laziness at 1:00 am, I really don't know what I was thinking then >.<

Third, expect a decent sized post soon.

[Porochaz]

xRECKONERx - 5 - ChannelDelibird, VP Baltar, Jason, Locke Lamora, ZONEACE
Jason - 3 - Juls, Jebus, xReckonerx
LockeLamora - 1 - curiouskarmadog
Jebus - 1 - canadianbovine


Not Voting:
Emptyger, Santos

Deadline August 21st 3pm

Noone has requested a prod. Will look into canadianbovine.

Question posted soon

[Porochaz]

Forgot canadianbovine said she would be away until the 15th

[Jebus]

Just realized,

unvote

[xRECKONERx]

Hey, so, how about I go ahead and get this over with since it seems like I'm going to inevitably be put at L-1 and I have to work tonight:

I'm the cop.