Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[mykonian]

confirm

can I claim a color too?

[mykonian]

Sorry, had to get my gun >.<

SCUMSLIP

[mykonian]

Oh shoot >.<
You're right... We're fighting werewolves...
Do rocket launchers actually work against werewolves

I'll be right back, just to be sure.

Silver rockets

[mykonian]

vote VP Baltar

for the 'we' in "we are all screwed.

If I said 'I are all screwed' I'd have to vote myself on my newly placed grammar policy, now wouldn't I?

I already like Porkens. Nice to play with you, sir!

[mykonian]

unvote
Vote: Porkens

for rolefishing.

if doublevoting is that obvious, there is nothing wrong with that question, is it? Then we know for sure.

[mykonian]

@ KMD

No, it wasn't serious.

then why a new vote?

[mykonian]

obvious scum tactic to raise postcount to avoid being called a lurker

[mykonian]

Also, just like camn, I'm having finals.

But, as we all know, you don't have them on sundays

[mykonian]

unvote, vote: mykonian

I assume this is a slightly better then random vote? Could you explain it?

[mykonian]

54: and she backtracked in saying it is all nothing serious. I don't know what to think, but I'll remember it. The question pointed out the problem, there came an answer, and I'm happy with that.

62: I'm in another game with her, where she also did this. It is her way of keeping some order. So it was a reference to that, and an opening for her to explain it.

65: is pointing out that that wasn't necessary. There was no need to post that she might have less time.

Oh, and that last reason: may I take a guess? Buddying up? to Porkens perhaps?

O, and I didn't random vote. I have not yet said this in a game, but I believe that random voting is not that useful. Slightly better then random voting, as you did, works way better in getting the game going. But I don't yet want to vote zilla, till I have seen more. VP is not really a good place for a vote yet, and zazie has not yet done something scummy. So, eh, I see no need to place a vote yet. Even if I know some people think that scummy

[mykonian]

a: slight scumtell
b: yes top pick, but I want to look longer.
c: no, just that if I were to accuse him, the case would be ridiculously weak.
d: zilla. but a lot didn't post yet, I haven't seen a lot. I want to know more first, and don't worry, that vote will be used.

[mykonian]

54: and she backtracked in saying it is all nothing serious. I don't know what to think, but I'll remember it. The question pointed out the problem, there came an answer, and I'm happy with that.

But she never even answered your question yet...

and that is enough to me, with the added saying that the votes were nothing serious. I don't need to know more. Do you?

Oh, and that last reason: may I take a guess? Buddying up? to Porkens perhaps?

Is this a joke or are you being serious here? I can't tell with the addition of the smiley.

If it's serious, what makes you think I'm buddying up to anyone let alone Porkens?

Hmm, I thought that was the only thing I talked about further...

You've commented on Zilla, yes, so I understand your suspicion of her but what makes you bring up VP Baltar's name of all the people in this game? Reading through your posts, I don't see you mentioning anything about him until now so what exactly would you be accusing him of?

Porkens did, I reacted that that could be a good post in the beginning, and that I did agree with it.

[mykonian]

Porkens did, I reacted that that could be a good post in the beginning, and that I did agree with it.

You think Porkens' vote was serious, yes or no? If yes, please explain what you think he was voting me for.

I though it serious, and weak. the fact that you want to point out so early that you are part of the big group, by using "we"

and hello Zilla:

You come with a complete nonsense "rolefishing accusation" which was pointed out by several. You pick one of them (me) and add that I haven't voted, something that is quite obvious. Because I would be scared of voting during something we call the random voting stage

I must say, brilliant case

[mykonian]

it is not a big deal anyway... what do you expect this early in the game. It is just slightly better then a random vote.


and eh, why do you ask?

[mykonian]

It seems more to me that you were considering voting for me because you saw I had 3 votes and thought it was a serious wagon forming. You implied that you had considered voting for me, but just needed some more suspicions confirmed before you cast the vote. I would contest that it wasn't a serious wagon at all.

Other people also seemed to not be taking Porkens serious. I would like to know if he thought it was a serious vote or not.

whoopsie. I wasn't clear. Yes, I liked the observation, no, I am not going to vote you, because you are not that likely scum. I haven't checked the votes till now.

[mykonian]

Mykonian, I said nothing about how you had no vote in RVS and said everything on your hesitation to lay down a serious vote. It's not like you can't have a serious vote until someone declares RVS is over.

like I would listen to others for that. It is my vote, I place it, when I have something that interests me, when I want to point something out, when I want to play with it. It is simply not useful to vote already, so I'm not going to.

and I'm already 16. So don't treat me like a child

[mykonian]

Then you have no dispute with me and my argument is completely valid.

you think so? Random votes don't say a lot, and are "flushed away" by all the other votes.

You say I'm scared to vote.

I say a vote isn't much use now.

I can't be scared, as votes aren't very much checked in the RVS. They don't say a lot. But if they don't say a lot, why would you vote?

Please show me, how you think your argument could be valid...

[mykonian]

Mykonian, you're claiming two things at once. You're saying you don't want to random vote, and that your vote is "worthless" now, and you alternate between the two, and neither make any sense.

The first makes no sense because it's only random voting if you're doing it for random reasons. If you have a serious reason, it's not a random vote. The second also makes no sense because it shouldn't matter who looks at your vote. It's paranoid scum who worry about how their vote looks.

or town that likes to see what the reaction of scum on a vote is. That won't help if they don't think it is serious

btw, it would be nice if I had a town game of you I could read. Would you have a link?

[mykonian]

KMD, till now I have not had any problems with games not starting. And I see no reason to make a mess here. I would also like to know how far we are with Zilla, because I've seen a lot of votes on her.

and a weak case is or an excuse for a vote, or something that shows the unvote will come. I'm not interested in that.

O yes, thank you for pointing at charters meta

I will vote you on the moment I have the idea you are lurking

[mykonian]

But, as we all know, you don't have them on sundays

I had one on a Saturday morning, so it's possible.

Whoever thinks that the weekend BEFORE finals isn't busy has been out of school TOO LONG!

less then a year, I had them And, the ones that come shouldn't scare her anymore.

[mykonian]

I wasn't talking about you... but about charter.

see, I can have this little problem. That I post too much to make the town function. In that game, there was another one that did the same. I think charter enjoyed the show. I didn't like it, and it is not going to happen again.

[mykonian]

Zilla, would you please have a town game for me?

[mykonian]

Yes, sorry, I missed it.

[mykonian]

arg, drawn together.

lets forget that one...

But, ehh, zilla. You have a small problem. In those games, you don't play like you do here, aggressively attacking multiple people with cases that are not that strong. You are accused of attacking, and see what holds. I've only seen you accused of that once, where you defended in the same way. As scum, in Merrin. It is definately your scum strategy.

vote zilla

: L-2

[mykonian]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 47&start=0

you don't need to read the whole day one

Ok, baltar: on that moment, I thought we were going out of it.

Very soon I saw some resemblence to the game I played with zilla before. She was scum there. That's why I asked for town games, to see if she was there the same, as she claims. Also, to vote within 3 pages on meta, I don't know, don't feel confortable with it, even if she defends herself with: I am always this way.

also, like I said, early in the game, votes aren't that serious, and won't be looked upon that much. Here you know I'm serious, my vote has some use, other then bringing a lynch closer.

and baltar, I don't know, but scum, bussing serious on page 5? Not a lot would do that, I think. The distancing-bussing story seems a little far-fetched.

[mykonian]

noticed that I didn't say "never"?

I said: unlikely. That is the thing with WIFOM: normally Llama would never bus that way, but because that makes him look protown, he does it sometimes.

and about Merrin: that day 1 was 53 pages long. She continued to come with weak cases, back of, see what sticked. It is not the amount of votes, it is the excuses that she gives for them.

[mykonian]

Some people seem to misunderstand what I mean with: "I will vote you when you lurk", said to charter. Last game he was scum, he won it by tactically being not in the thread . Just a warning that I will look at it.

I don't see the appeal for VP Baltar's "Zilla being bussed by mykonian-scum" theory. The fact that he built a complete case against mykonian under the premonition that Zilla is scum is creepy. VP Baltar, do you see mykonian as scummy independent of his interactions of Zilla? Your case only seems to work under the assumption that Zilla is definitely scum here, and we haven't had an alignment flip yet sooo, yeah.

and so I was linked to zilla

mykonian's defense to VP Baltar's case is also weird:

and baltar, I don't know, but scum, bussing serious on page 5? Not a lot would do that, I think. The distancing-bussing story seems a little far-fetched.

Why "seems" a little far-fetched? If you're town here, wouldn't you

know

whether or not it's far-fetched?

Did I use the wrong words? The above kind of shows what I tried to say. It makes little sense to build a case on me, with zilla as scum, and we bussing and distancing. Too many things that have to be assumed.

Kmd4390 and mykonian:

If I'm reading correctly, VP Baltar was accusing

mykonian

of bussing Zilla. How did you two contort that into

LlamaFluff

bussing Zilla?

you read this wrong. I said bussing this way, as Baltar accused me of, is unlikely to think of as town. KMD's counterargument was that it had happened to him and Llama.

would have been thinking the same way as you were back then too. Then you

did

seem to completely drop those mykonian suspicions on page 4 completely in favor of the current Zilla-case. Why is that?

mykonian's vote on Zilla strikes me as extremely scummy. I find it odd that he supposedly spent 30 or so minutes meta-gaming Zilla and then finally placed his vote down on her. It seemed like he was leaning towards doing that from

page 3

anyway, so I really dislike how he felt the need to build up to it.

Can we get a wagon on mykonian instead? He's FAR scummier.

The fact that so much of the thread seems to be ignoring this really creeps me out.

I have trouble to see your problem. I waited with my vote, to get more posts from zilla before I pointed out that her play was very similar to her play in Merrin. And I waited so my vote would be taken serious. So I couldn't walk away from it, saying it wasn't serious, or something like that. I felt confident about it, and I thought it would be better if I placed that vote, on the moment that people would look at it.

[mykonian]

and lets forget that as soon as possible

[mykonian]

charter, as I remembered, lynched me partly based on how I play as scum... another thing that I hope won't happen again.

and I don't think that account is going to be used a lot... in the freeking first post, how bad can it get?

[mykonian]

BTW, you creating an alt today is scummy.
Guilty conscience? Something to hide? I think so.

yeah, yeah. It could have been if I was in this game with it. Further, like I said, you won't see it a lot. (though there are things that are worse then this)

[mykonian]

Also, I read that you were suspicious of Mykonian for saying he couldn't be bussing. Now you forgot about that too?

you people miss the point:

why would town make up an unlikely story? why did VP baltar have to link me and zilla together? It makes no sense!

[mykonian]

why would town make up an unlikely story? why did VP baltar have to link me and zilla together? It makes no sense!

Maybe he honestly thinks that you and Zilla are both scum?

but that would require a story that is not based on facts, assumes a lot, and by that, is nothing more then that: a story. A construction, that makes he can pressure us both. That he can keep consistent.

[mykonian]

A story or a theory. There's nothing wrong with theories.

true. Plus that it gives an insight in the mind of the person who thought the theory up.

[mykonian]

A) Porkens.. I love you. More than ever.

B)

O yes, thank you for pointing at charters meta

I will vote you on the moment I have the idea you are lurking

Explain this for me one more time....cuz I still don't get it.
You would vote CHARTER for lurking... but your buddy afatchic gets a free pass? Is that what you are saying here?

I ctrl+f'd your posts.... not even a MENTION. Not a whisper. Not a head nod. You completely ignored the uber-lurker, and waited for a real man to handle biz.

Whats the deal?

I have no experience with AFC scum. I have with Charter-scum, and he lurked in that game, and I don't want that to happen again. It is a threat, to make him play.

[mykonian]

@VP Baltar. Yes, on page three, I already saw similarity with the game I played with zilla. The flood of cases that don't really make sense.

Yes, my vote on Mykonian is WIFOM because it's based on my own alignment and reading into what he's thinking about it, but that option is available to me. It's really sound reasoning from my point of view. I can see that it's a lot weaker for people who don't know my alignment, and while my reason works for me, it only works for me.

eh, this sounds a lot like OMGUS...

@Incog: I'm becoming more a meta lover when I have played before with people. In polygamist 2 (not in one, there I was scum) I tried to use it too. But it is no use to try it on most people, because: a. if I don't know them, things in their play will not remind me. b. if they are quite unreadable for me, there will be little things to remind me off.

zilla, I have seen closely as scum, and her play was a bit typical. So when she repeats that, I'm going to remember.

To be sure: AFC was scum, right? (scum governer???)



@plum. I didn't place a random vote because I saw no need to. Do you want a meta defence? I often place my first vote late. And very little as a "random" vote.

In some games I start with a more or less senseless first case, just to get reactions. But I don't think I often voted someone for his avatar.
In newby 746, I waited till I could make a case on Fishy (a useless one, true, but I didn't vote right away.). A difference here was that I tried to vote for meta. In any way, you will also see that as scum I'm not scared in the start to make a vote.

And now I've been voted for reluctance to make a case on zilla: ok, here it is, in short.

zilla makes a lot of cases that don't really make sense.
when attacked, she goes back (or says it wasn't serious), and start another attack.
continiously finds other people suspicious, and points out that she is. Often without clear reasons, but just doubt.

this could be eager town, or scum with a particular way of playing. Seen my game with her, it is the last.

And yes, ZazieR needs to post. Mykonian is due as well.

Can I sleep please??? Completely insane...

[mykonian]

Am I really understanding well that the case on me mainly is my delayed vote? Seriously people, that is not something to lynch someone for.

Or is it my not that direct defence against VP Baltars linking?

Further I have trouble to make up things that you could trow at me, and I have trouble to see that I should be lynched for that. The defence against baltar was needed, and the delayed vote is not really a tell, as I'm not scared to vote when I'm scum.

[mykonian]

VP, like I said before, who is going to vote on page 3, based on the fact that you think her scummy cases can't be explained, like she said, that she always does that?

Indeed, I wanted to see how she continued. I was going to vote her, but what harm could waiting do? If I point out what she was doing wrong, what made me think she was scum, she could alter her play. If I acted too soon, maybe my case would look worse, and seen that there was no harm in waiting, why wouldn't I?

Plus that this way, my vote got some attention, and was viewed as a serious one, I thought this to be a good idea.

What I don't understand is how waiting with voting, when you are talking, is a scumtell. It is not that I haven't played until I voted. Sure, if someone doesn't do a thing, then looks who is scummiest and votes, that could be a scumtactic. But that is not what happened here.

[mykonian]

ok, I seem to be misunderstanding what is happening here. Because I can't imagine that people actually want to lynch me because I waited with voting. Zilla thinks I lurk too, something I don't think I can.

but there must be something else, that I haven't defended against. Could someone point this out to me?

[mykonian]

What are your reasons for thinking about killing those players?
Also, if you're not a 'full' vig (which you'll have to prove day 2), but a one-shot, expect my vote tomorrow.

???

a one shot mafia vig that shoots his own buddy?

very unlikely.

[mykonian]

What are your reasons for thinking about killing those players?
Also, if you're not a 'full' vig (which you'll have to prove day 2), but a one-shot, expect my vote tomorrow.

???

a one shot mafia vig that shoots his own buddy?

very unlikely.

Porkens who doesn't have a lurking Zazie in list of players who he was thinking about killing is very unlikely to be town.

but he shot a mafia powerrole, and you threaten to vote him if he is a one shot. What does that have to do with who he has on his list?

[mykonian]

Why would a daykill mafia shoot a powerrole on his team unprovoked, especially one as useful as Governor?

He wouldn't. Zazie has to assume a lucky 2nd team mafia, or a daykill SK to make this work. Unlikely, so I won't vote for Porkens tomorrow because of that.

[mykonian]

There are much easier ways to look town, then to daykill a mafia governor

[mykonian]

this could be eager town, or scum with a particular way of playing. Seen my game with her, it is the last.

But you're pretty sure/quite confident for a Day 1 case that it's the latter of the two possibilities, are you?

More soon-ish.

yes. I think it is weird that I'm accused of tunneling. I have tried to express my doubt of VP early (which was seen as defending my self). The only thing that makes that a bit more doubtful is the way zilla talked to him, after I voted her. Also, I have reacted on zazie here, that brought something really unusual up, that is hard to believe to come from town. So no, I don't think I'm tunneling, I believe in what I did there, it is hard to defend, and there has been little talking about it.

but, to accuse people of tunneling, I still have trouble to understand why I'm your top suspect. I would like to defend myself from it, because on this moment the only reason why people don't lynch me is because they think it is too early

[mykonian]

isn't a governor a role that stops a lynch?

[mykonian]

Mykonian: did you see my explanation for why you don't see the same pattern in the games you looked at? What do you think of that? Are you still voting me for meta?

If you read me right, I was voting you because I saw a clear similarity between Merrin and this game. The town meta could weaken my suspicion, if it was the same.

So, that means that the weak cases you have made in the start, the aggressiveness that often doesn't make that much sense, isn't excuses "because you do it all the time". You actually did it as scum!

[mykonian]

Also, if you already had these suspicions of her based on meta, why did you have to keep asking her for games? You must have seen her before as town to even have these suspicions in the first place. Then it only takes you little over 40minutes to read her in 1 town game and determine that your suspicions are correct.

no, I only knew a scumgame, and I saw a practically similar play. In the town games, I mostly focused on the first 10 pages, and on Zilla's posts. Further, you indeed pressured me, because several people think it is a scumtell to vote late! Can you explain to me why that is a scumtell? I think I have already pointed out how it can be, and that it can't be applied here.

[mykonian]

I'll lay it out entirely, and hopefully this is what Charter was talking about.

I faked being a doublevoter to try and get a reaction.

Porkens made a post that struck me as "A doublevoter? REALLY? Uh-Oh."

I didn't respond.

that is going to cause problems

Porkens avoided confrontation and stepped down, saying "I guess we'll see in the votecounts." This bothered me too.

I voted Porkens for rolefishing.

seems a bit of a weak case, don't you think?

KMD asked if I was serious.

you sounded serious

Plum VOTED me because she disagreed with my vote. I found this scummy.

Weak cases can easily made by scum, and you pushed the one on Porkens quite seriously.

I told KMD it wasn't serious to guage Plum's reaction when she saw that my vote wasn't serious.

A page goes by with little commentary about what just happened and no plum. RVS is dead, not only by my hand but also Zazie, KMD, and Incognito.

I post the truth, that I was SLIGHTLY serious about voting Porkens, and that I told KMD that it wasn't serious at all to gauge Plum's reaction.

again, that is not a case I would be serious about.

Turns out the plan wasn't very helpful all around.

[mykonian]

Do you think zilla is scum?

I'm inclined to think so, but I feel better about mykonian. I'm trying not to be swayed by Zilla's excessive ranting and raving, since that seems to be her MO.

MO?

I hoped to explain this with that meta...

[mykonian]

I think I have talked about VP too, and Porkens, and zazie. I think you are mostly talking about charter. He has almost said nothing, except about me and zilla

wait, that is not only zilla... and further, I'm still looking for the case on me, because I think a delayed meta-vote is not a scumtell, and I would like someone to explain that to me.

And incog, till now, nothing really stood out about Llama, so I have no real read on him (call us scumbuddies...), apart from what Llama needed to say about porkens (what had been said already), and nothing more about the play in that post...

[mykonian]

and how many posts of me were only about zilla? I think only in the start. I have a nice place for my vote, that is nearly undefendable now anymore, so I have to be careful about that, but there is little talking about it.

[mykonian]

Incog, do you agree, that without listening to zilla saying "I do this every time", that her play is a little doubtful? She has had the most weak cases of us all.

[mykonian]

So, her game is a little weird. She defends it with "I do that as town too", just as in Merrin. In her town games, we don't see such play. Is it so weird to see me vote her for that?

Ballsy does tell what she is, she is not scared to distance hard, etc, as I know her.

but could you explain what the danger in the above situation was? Tell me not that we should be scared for rolefishing-votes.

[mykonian]

"Spaghetti strategy" is not just a scum strategy. That's how I like to scumhunt. I am throwing accusations around to see what sticks, but apparently not in the way you're thinking, I'm not seeing which of my cases sticks with town, I'm seeing what reactions my accusations are getting.

post 109. that was already page 5... still before my vote, but after I got suspicious.

okay... I didn't see that point that pointing out such a softclaim could be an excuse to vote... It is kind of a null-tell, esspecially seen the way porkens did it.

[mykonian]

unvote vote VP Baltar

His last post makes me think he is scum that sees his dreams come true: two wagons on town. He seems to argue both ways in his posts, for instance, and this:

You were making it out that I supported their lynches equally, which is not true. The point I was making about Zilla's wagon being the leading one at the time is this: why would I, as scum, not vote for Zilla's wagon that was gaining steam when it wouldn't have been suspicious at all to do so? Even though mykon was second wagon, wouldn't the obvious play there for scum have been to go after the wagon most likely to lynch in the shortest possible time?

That's all wifom, of course, but so was your point, so I think it's fair to consider.

I can think of a reason: have pressure on both of them, making them suspicious for day two.

this combined with the way he got on my wagon, and how he is attacking both zilla and me from it, I think I like this place for my vote

I'm growing cool on Mykonian because in Drawn Together, as I was rereading after replacing, I would have lynched him too. He's not a very pro-town player, and he's absolutley horrible at defending himself.

arg, two games in a row where I here that... It would be very nice if someone explained me after the game

[mykonian]

EBWOP: arg, two games in a row where I hear that... It would be very nice if someone explained me after this game.

[mykonian]

Mykonian, what do you think of me now, and why change to VP over me?

My observation of the first few pages, where I voted you for, is still the same. But like I said before, it is hardly defendable, and I have to be careful with it. Your recent play is much more protown, less weak cases that you take too serious. So it is mostly that I will keep an eye on you, but not that I could easily switch back, that depends on what happens next.

[mykonian]

I would like a reaction on my vote, esspecially from VP.

[mykonian]

Also, I have reacted on zazie here, that brought something really unusual up, that is hard to believe to come from town.

Oh? You were suspicious of me for my suspicions against Porkens? I couldn't tell that from the posts which reacted to it.

I questioned it for the fun of it?

Also, you've seen worse from me (the stuff you searched which I didn't want you to). So, this is highly noted.

we still don't agree.

[mykonian]

Also, I have reacted on zazie here, that brought something really unusual up, that is hard to believe to come from town.

Oh? You were suspicious of me for my suspicions against Porkens? I couldn't tell that from the posts which reacted to it.

I questioned it for the fun of it?

Then why did you point it out as example that you're not tunnelvisioning if you only questioned it for the fun?

I am not going back for everything for a baseless accusation. I have been doubting players, I have talked about that, and if someone wants to call me a tunneler, 2 or 3 examples should be enough.

[mykonian]

guys, I'm of course very happy that a lot of people have their votes out, but I kind of know how this is going to end. Because we aren't playing like we have a deadline in a few days, and on this moment my bandwagon is big enough to make lynch me just before deadline.

and I fear that is going to happen. While I'm still very sure I haven't done anything that makes me more likely scum, if it continues this way, I'm going to get lynched.

I have voted delayed. This is by meta not a scumtell, and would only be a useful scumtell if scum didn't comment on the game till then: something I did. So I think I can argue succesfully that this is not something you should vote me for.

My case on zilla has been said to be "crap". Some have also misunderstood the purpose of the use of meta. Zilla's starting play, with a lot of weak cases, that sound serious, after that again saying it was not serious, etc. is scummy. It doesn't help town, as the cases are just as easily made on town as on scum, and it pressurizes the others all into defending. The fact that she definately acted like this in Merrin, is an added thing. The fact that in her town games, this can't be found made it more solid. I think one can do worse on page 5.

So, please unvote, or tell me what I still haven't defended. Because I hear here and there that there are some holes in my defense...

[mykonian]

@ mykonian's 275: I don't think calling attention to one's town meta is something that is more likely to be done by scum as opposed to town in defense of oneself. Also, I don't think the town games you looked into are very good comparisons since in each one, Zilla's been a replacement. Therefore, there's no way to determine whether or not Zilla would actually use a so-called Spaghetti Strategy to kick a game off because, according to what I've read, I haven't seen a town game of hers that she played completely from scratch; she seems to replace in a lot. If you have a sample of games of hers that strongly SUGGEST that she wouldn't use this strategy as town, then that might help your case against her but as it stands, it doesn't look like that's the case. So no.

may I assume that she is going to take town games of her that would defend her play?

Wait. Myko, it's not a few days. It's almost a week.

It is less then a week! *panics*

I thought I was in such a situation for longer then a week in drawn together.


could it be that a short deadlined game makes Llama play different?

[mykonian]

could it be that a short deadlined game makes Llama play different?

No. That wouldn't be it.

He has a well thought out reason for playing the way he is.

If I saw this game before, and known some players, I could guess activity would be high, wouldn't it? And it would not be hard to hide as lurker?

anyway, I'm not yet thinking of voting him, so if this is it, his strategy worked.

[mykonian]

Mykonian did not only avoid voting during the random stage when he was around (minor point) but he seemed very slow to take stances in the more serious stages, especially in being proactive in scumhunting and voting suspects.

I have seen a lot of activity from YOU! Also you haven't read a thing where I try to talk into you why I chose not to vote directly, and how the scumtell not even applied, because it only is an indication of lurking, something that didn't happen here.

This is kinda the part that bugs me, in that she votes for Mykonian based entirely on reasons already put foreward by other players. This means she can shift any accountability to the people she followed onto the vote. If she's scum and knows Mykonian is town, this is a safe way to vote a townie.

was the fact that I immediately saw it as scum manipulation and a major major tell.

how was this manipulation by scum? You can't see this as a case coming from town? Please explain why, because you seem to be very sure about it.

Be advised that I am already working on an extensive post about two suspects. Sneak preview: VP Baltar and LlamaFluff.

[mykonian]

mykonian, I don't get what you're asking in your last post to me. Clarify?

If I ask zilla for town games, I expect, if she is scum or town, that she comes with games that would show her playing just as she did here. The fact that she didn't give such a game is a bit weird, and shouldn't defend her, don't you think?

[mykonian]

Meta is dumb.

probably true but why not try another approach at finding scum?

[mykonian]

ok, read it, and I agree with a lot of it. But that could have a lot to do with the time now. I would also believe you if you claimed clown, I think. Good post anyway.

But am I really compared to Empking? And those "various reasons" why you are not so sure about the case against me, has that anything to do with my defence? (please, make me happy!)

[mykonian]

There's already one scum dead. Zilla is another scum. How many suspects do I have to have?

I assume there's three scum

, so I'm just looking for one more person. Frankly, power roles should be able to nab the last scum.

And your put up or shut up is incredibly old and doesn't actually defend against anything, just a poor way to attempt and shy off things. I suppose that you might not "support" the lynch of everyone, but in the last few pages,

you've voiced suspicion on everyone but camn

, so it doesn't seem like you think anyone is town, except camn.

There, camn is the third scum.

does it get more scummy?

because zazie just pointed out that it would be likely that there are 2 scumteams... you just assume there is one, without any reasoning?

nice and subjective, just claiming it is that way. Please tell me how this is protown

and horrible logic.

[mykonian]

My iso posts 5, 6, and 7 all clearly show that I was finding myk suspicious for the way he tried to say i was suspicious based on Porkens' vote in the RVS. What really stuck out to me about this is that I had 3 votes on me and he appeared to be testing the waters to cast a 4th, even though the previous 3 just seemed like an early wagon to check for reactions.

You again don't get it, after I explained. Porkens had a good observation, although it was a small point. I liked Porkens his reaction, as it should a town way of thinking. Thank you for adding this to an already dying case. Thank you for hoping everybody forgot the defence already.

So, you would hopefully see why I have some problems with my vote being generalized as entirely dependent upon Zilla being scum, because it's not. There are points that were, and I definitely should have been more careful in what I said when I opened that post, but I think this case is definitely being backed somewhere by scum under these somewhat false premises.

But why even try to have both persons in one scumteam, with such a complicated theory? That is the question. You just try to get the best of both, to give you some room to vote one of them. You vote the smaller wagon, to pressure them both, and not seem to eager.

[mykonian]

Myk, Because the flipped scum has a name, that means there are two groups?

Why just blindly assume it is only one, while you could also think about the other scenario?

[mykonian]

You again don't get it, after I explained.

I got your explanation. I just didn't believe it.

Thank you for hoping everybody forgot the defence already.

What are you talking about? Does no one else see how defensive mykonian gets?

O noes, he defends himself!

VP, if you think you have to again come up with points against me, while you are attacked for something different, expect me to be annoyed, as you are thinking you can defend your stance on zilla and me by saying: "But myk is very scummy!" something that was not the point of the attack, and has been defended against already.

o, and if you didn't believe, tell me earlier please. Not a few pages after that.

[mykonian]

The same thing bothers me with Camn saying she needs to reread VP and Llama.

am I happy you don't ask me. I don't know a thing about Llama. Generally it is not a good thing if I have no opinion on a player.

[mykonian]

Lets see, what is happening till now:

Porkens

obv town, shot a scum pr, started well

Myko

was not active enough in the start, did not place an early vote

zilla

started with weak cases seriously, backtracked to saying it were jokes/gambits/not serious votes. Started to ask a lot of questions lately.

VP Baltar

Made up some weird story to make the fact that he could go for either bandwagon understandable

Llamafluff

lurks, plays definately not according to his meta, doesn't play protown.

Charter

tunnels, comes with subjective arguments against zilla

KMD

tunnels. Plays not very town, as expected.

ZazieR

Came with a very weird accusation/threat against Porkens, after that explained via meta.



Is this about right? As I see it now, I probably miss some major points against KMD. I also miss some players. About two of them, I have absolutely no reason to doubt them, and there haven't been a lot of opinions about them: Camn and Incog. Esspecially incog seems town to me. Plum I don't know about.

[mykonian]

KMD

tunnels. Plays not very town, as expected.

1, how am I tunneling?
2, what does this even mean?

short version of what you are accused of. You are quite busy with zilla. You were expected to look more town. But as I stated, I think I'm missing/not understanding things here.

[mykonian]

I think I'm missing/not understanding things here.

QFT. You've become increasingly lazy since you stopped being under suspicion.

Who are your top three picks for a lynch and why. (Obviously I'm #1, so I guess who are your other two?)

If everything I posted in that summary, is about right, then I'm suspicous further of Charter very soon after you, and Llama/KMD at a clear third place. Don't really know what to think about them. The main thing behind my suspicion of Charter is his use of subjective arguments against zilla (I commented on it, if you want, I should be able to find it again).

And I think incredibily lazy is a bit of a weird thing to say. No, I'm not debating with one person, and yes, I still sleep. But apart from that, this lurking accusation makes little sense.

why did you have to accuse me in this way? Why as a rhetoric question? why lazy, in stead of lurking? Why the use of incredibily?

[mykonian]

If everything I posted in that summary, is about right, then I'm suspicous further of Charter very soon after you

When will you know if what you posted "is about right"?

when people don't point out that I'm wrong at one?

Llama/KMD at a clear third place. Don't really know what to think about them.

ERROR. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Llama and Kmd are clearly your third place, but you don't really know what to think about them. k.

is right, this sentence is very poorly written. What I tried to say that I feel there is a larger difference between charter and KMD/Llama in scumminess. KMD/Llama are more people that are more likely to be scum, that are only put there because you needed a top three.

[mykonian]

KMD/Llama are more people that are more likely to be scum, that are only put there because you needed a top three.

What makes Kmd and Llama higher on your list than Zilla, who you have actually looked into and made points against?

better play last time, and my two top suspects acting against her.

[mykonian]

ok, sorry for the lazyness then. I'm getting a bit worried by school, so maybe because of that. Just that my mind is not thinking the right way. Now I'm going to try to do something about that, this evening I'm going to try to post something good here.

[mykonian]

ok, sorry for the lazyness then. I'm getting a bit worried by school, so maybe because of that. Just that my mind is not thinking the right way. Now I'm going to try to do something about that, this evening I'm going to try to post something good here.

so if zilla says you're being lazy it's true, but when I point it out first it's an unfounded attack?

I don't understand why people are so assured that mykonian is town.

if one says it, in a kind of accusation, then I'm going to defend myself.

if a second one says: sorry, but it is true, then I must be the person that is wrong.

[mykonian]

Page 11

Incog comes with a weak, pressure vote on Llama, saying that he could easily go back to me, and already saying it doesn´t do that much. Really, why would anyone do this? He also accuses everyone on the zilla wagon of tunneling (counts probably for Charter and KMD)

on the other hand, he does agree that VP's early case was weird.

Incog defends zilla, because of her reacting on Porkens claim.

(incog seems to be buddying up, and in the start going after me, and defending zilla)

in any case, that would more likely make zilla town. Something I have been thinking lately, and zilla is not really an alternative for me.


Page 12

Incog and VP are not buddies. Don't expect an combined scumteam theory from me


280 from zilla, esspecially how she shakes of Incog, is towny.

Woah, I just reread Charter's part in the recently ended Monopoly Mafia, and that paints an entirely different picture of Charter. This tunnelvision is way more like his Family Guy tunneling. In Monopoly, he didn't have blinders on, and even people he said were obv-town (Gamma) ended up on his scum list at the end of the day.

Also important to note, he actually had a scum list, and he actually responded to most players.

In Family Guy, he latched on to Wolframnhart and never let go. Ever. And he said he would make no compromises on that vote.

In the marathon I played with him as town, he played aggressively, but not aboslutely single-minded.

Charter has gone up significantly in scum level.

point against charter.


Ehh, just thinking, has KMD commented a lot on people, except Zilla and Llama? it is the only thing I can remember.

[mykonian]

Page 13

if there were 2 scumteams, would Zazie be more likely scum because she was quite confirmed it was that way? although she brings up good points?

and why would anyone go after porkens at that moment. Not even scum would do that. (too scummy to be scum fallacy, I know...)


seen the votecount (321), I would assume not all scum are on me. Seen the way I play till now, they might even want me in the game, and stay of my wagon because of that: charter, KMD, Llama, Zazie, all could be scum for this. So this doesn't help.

324: more zilla defence from Incog...

Incog major FoS'es VP, but never voted him.

Is KMD always someone who is eager to point at lurking?

From what I read till now, seen what KMD says, Llama is town. He plays like he should in case he has mostly town reads, and the fact that we now agree on zilla and me makes me think he is right.

I don't support a Llama lynch.

[mykonian]

after several posts that he doesn't know about Llama, KMD finally dares and says he wants to lynch Llama, because something is off...

Ok, without a reread, I would say that I find Kmd's tunnelling on you to be unlike what I have seen from him as town before. I would normally expect him to cast a wider net in his scum hunting. He also agreed with Incog a bit about me "backtracking", but never came after me too hard about it.

Do I think that is enough to lynch off of? Probably not. I would definitely prefer a mykon or Llama lynch before a Kmd lynch.

is this a way to get rid of a potentially dangerous town player(Llama)? (same for KMD)




I am feeling good about my vote, and I could vote KMD if needed. I don't believe in a Llama lynch, and have found little points against charter, except meta, and the short, jokish, subjective posts (yes, there is more then one)

[mykonian]

KMD votes VP just as soon as someone suggests lynching Zaz...

You'd rather try to run up a wagon on a relatively townie player (aside from the theory that you bus-vidged) with no votes instead of a scummy player (my 3rd suspect) at L-2?

I disagree.

wrong answer? going around her name? You could have said that more protown...

[mykonian]

I'd prefer KMD, but Llama is an acceptable alternative.

Nothing has changed for my case on KMD. Llama's case on VP was aptly-timed, and quite suspicious. I'm actually kind of glad that of the two townies to die, they were plum and zazier, because I had suspicions about them.

Being wrong about VP has shaken my town read on Incognito a bit, and also that he wasn't targetted at night. I also haven't liked Camn's posts lately.

Still, KMD is my prime suspect, and if Charter refuses to look anywhere else, he's my number 2.

plus that KMD started with weak questioning of Llama, ended with making that a vote "because Llama acts weird", and now it suddenly became a big suspect. I would go for KMD.

[mykonian]

btw, Llama is town.

Charter assumed yesterday in one of his reasonings that there was only one scumteam, something that was debated then. He seems surprisingly to be right. I wonder where he got that knowledge...

[mykonian]

yes, that is indeed the reason Llama is town. I know he likes to fakeclaim, but I can't see him doing this.

people, please look back at KMD's voting last day, esspecially around Llama. It is extremely weak. first he tries to make people suspicious, but doens't want to vote, and but in the end he does vote because Llama place different then else...

but on the moment needed, he is on the VP lynch.

[mykonian]

You only had to claim in the Mini because you were voteless.

The large, you mostly played a good game.

Here, you took a back seat and waited for something to happen. That is something I have NEVER seen you do.

also not as scum.

[mykonian]

People, KMD made a case against Llama yesterday that only consisted of meta, and not even showed why that made Llama more likely scum. Still, Llama was KMD's first choice this day.

He even admits his mistakes. What a gentleman...

that makes sure he made them

and is not a defence, just a "I am reasonable"-show.

further, from my point of view, and seen the claims, that are all believable, and really, most likely town. Almost sure.

From the others, Camn and Incog have done a reasonable (great) amount of scumhunting, while KMD has been wishywashy on his Llama case yesterday for a long time, voted him for a weak case, and jumped on the mislynch, and charter that has tunneled on a towny.

because seen her claim, seen the timing, zilla is in my eyes confirmed, more so then Llama or Porkens.

So, of the two lynches I would like, Charter and KMD, I thought KMD was the closest:

vote KMD

[mykonian]

you did.

massclaim should be a good idea.

[mykonian]

I disagree with roleclaiming. I would like to hear from Mykonian what Llama's effect was though.

KMD did not defend, he just tried to skew/slant the case against him. The fact remains that he did no scumhunting yesterday except tunneling on me. All his VP hate was copied from myself and Incog. He irrationally defended charter and mykonian. Even his Llama problems were already precedented by my comments on how Llama isn't playing as usual.

And Mykonian, it is pretty obvious that Llama is playing differently here. While it's also true I haven't seen him as scum before, I'm not ready to say he's scum. It is interesting how tightly you two are sticking together though.

and now you expect that I'm going to tell you, while it won't help us a bit, because you don't want a massclaim. Doesn't seem a smart plan to me. We can do a massclaim, something that can barely hurt, since two strong pr's are already in the open, and then I want to tell you what I think.

Porkens, no, I didn't hear it was done by an inventor, yes: something happened.

Mod, did this setup get reviewed?

[mykonian]

unvote

probably a good idea, I want to know more before we do anything.

Porkens, why shoot so early today? You could have had the whole day to get more information before your shot.

[mykonian]

arg, this post should be after massclaim... I'll save it.

Llama, I have reason to believe you have to use your power at night, am I right?

in case of massclaim, is there some way of claiming we prefer?

[mykonian]

/Serial killer

[mykonian]

[/sigh] Why wouldn't a serial killer support a massclaim?

vote mykonian

?

why would a dayvig shoot twice on little evidence, do little next to it, and look simple desinterested in the game? (plus actually admitting to be looking for a fast lynch)

and setupwise, why would a mod put two confirmable town roles in one game? Why look only at Llama, while your play hasn't been stunningly protown either? Couldn't you be a lucky SK, that accidentaly shot scum the first time?

[mykonian]

This leaves me and mykonian as the only people who haven't claimed who were also on the wagon. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that this VP wagon was completely town-pushed, I know that I'm town, and I find at least two of the four claimants to be rather town-ish (Zilla and Porkens). I think there's gotta be at least 1 scum in {LF, myk, Kmd} because of this.

I don't like how charter is dismissed based on your process of elimination.

that

plus that it is pretty useless to think this way, your chances of finding scum haven't improved, and you are more likely to miss things because you dismiss some players.

[mykonian]

Mykonian: Why are you withholding information regarding Llama's "invention"?

unvote: LlamaFluff
Vote: Mykonian

If Llama is telling the truth, Mykonian can still be scum. If Llama is lying, Mykonian can still be scum. I think the odds of Mykonian being scum are higher than Llama's.

and only myko and Llama can be scum [/bad logic]

because, in case there is no massclaim, I don't know why I should claim what Llama does. Would it add anything to the discussion? So, because there was talk about massclaiming, I figured I might wait till that.

and Camn, nice vote

[mykonian]

ok, now I read more, and I have trouble to understand what is the reason now that I'm voted for. Mostly the reasoning seems to be: Llama doesn't have to have given it to a towny. I don't see how that makes me scummy. What I also see is that I have been defended by other players. That can be called buddying up: but doesn't make me scum.

So, I would like to know what Camn is trying with her vote, and what Incog likes about my wagon.

[mykonian]

Incog, really, you assume porkens to be town, you may expect a strong scum (pr's etc.)

[mykonian]

Mykonian, I just can't think of any reason why a hypo-Porkens-daykilling-SK would claim the way he did. It wasn't like he was rung up to a claim or anything -- he voluntarily soft-claimed and then voluntarily came forward with his claim. Do you really think an SK would paint that bright of a bullseye on himself without having any further knowledge about the set-up?

Day SK's are not that common, are they? Dayvig seems a good fakeclaim. We should not forget him, that is all I say. There are points against him, and his claim should not be his only defence.

[mykonian]

I missed it completely. And no, I don't understand either.

camn, I have every reason to believe Llama, and zilla to be town. however, that would make the game way too easy. I asked if it was reviewed, as Spyrex might have overseen a player in the position I am. Otherwise, the dayvig is such a strong town pr, that it cannot but imbalance the game.

does that make sense? So I looked at Porkens again, and am I stunned by his protown play?

[mykonian]

Given that it WAS reviewed, what is your contention?

(contention?)

then seeing that it is balanced, porkens has such a powerful protown role, that it is hard to believe he is town.

can we really not massclaim? there are so many roles out in the open, and it would make my posts easier to understand. Or should I claim alone?

[mykonian]

You are at L-2 with Incog breathing down your throat.

You should proably be paying more attention to your defense than speculating on Setup.

BTW, What changed from yesterday to today? it seems yesterday you were thinking Porkens was pretty town.

remember?

Porkens

obv town, shot a scum pr, started well

on that moment, I wasn't targeted by Llama.

[mykonian]

His play re: afatchic was suspect, as I stated yesterday.
He did defend Porkens from Zazie.. which I like... but now is calling him a SK. which is it?
His POST 71 was a little IIoA, it think...
Why is he asking if the setup was reviewed?
Plus, as Incog noted:

plus that it is pretty useless to think this way, your chances of finding scum haven't improved, and you are more likely to miss things because you dismiss some players.

This DOES look like he is PETRIFIED of using wagon analysis to catch scum!

Hmm.
I could go for a Myko lynch.

1. I don't think I have talked about afat.
2. Yesterday I wasn't targeted by Llama, and zazie was right that Porkens was fast on the trigger.
3. IIoA? sorry. It was to be sure if I had everything straight still. If I remember correctly, only KMD really reacted on it. It can be a good idea to post it, to get things clear.
4. I asked it to make sure that the mod hasn't missed a way to break the game.
5. Those kinds of exclusions of players work great: if they improve your chances. If you can reason that one of KMD/Myk is scum, then you have done something great. But this actually is worse then you could get by simply looking at everyone.

and I think a lot of players have already looked at me, so no, I'm not terrified scum.

[mykonian]

zilla, that you are so eager to claim, doesn't make that I am...


but ok, here you go: Llama gives compulsive one shot doc powers. If he is scum, he could give it to a member of his team. He could not give it the first day: means that night one someone else has to be a doc (check).

that means that we would have a dayvig/ almost unfindable doc combo in our midst. That combination would give town extra lynches (could explain the governor), but is now quite unbalanced.


from my point of view, that would mean a very strong mafia, or that that porkens is not protown.

[mykonian]

KMD, the reason why I wouldn't claim that, is because it makes Llama the best pr the town has. Plus that it makes Llama obv town, as he could give it to his partners, in stead of town.

plus, in case of a massclaim, a copclaim wouldn't be such a good idea.

and I love you too, zilla. Please make sense.

[mykonian]

why would scum claim what I did. Like KMD said, I'm not going to lie.

and please, tell me, why was it so important you claimed? zilla, get a glass of water and talk again then. You seriously should calm down.

[mykonian]

FoS Incognito.

there seems to be some confusion about what Llama gave me. I can use it tonight. but because you all wanted my claim, now scum can happily block me and kill Porkens. congratulations.

now, our dear Incog is only trying to lynch pr's. Like porkens says, a scum inventor isn't that likely.

further in Llamas claim, there was no choice of what he did. so assuming the mod doesn't do random things, I thought that Llama only gives out one shot doc powers.

Camn: please don't ask why I'm town, point out why I'm scum.

but what I really don´t like, is how charter suddenly found a much more conveniant target then zilla, who he isn´t going to lynch. He comes in the thread with a summary of posts, and his opinions on that, and there is his vote. It seems like obvious scumplay to me.

but at least, it seems a good idea to me to leave me alive today. I have a oneshot power, and it would be nice to try to use it.

[mykonian]

because I only got it this "morning".

I see porkens as perhaps the strongest PR town has. but still, with the towns control, he could mean an extra lynch.

vanilla, further. still a one shot doc to go.

I have absolutely no idea why it would be in the towns interest to lynch me, but several town seem to think it is good for them.

[mykonian]

if you assume me scum, then you are going to react just like zilla: you won't believe me. Idon't know what porkens is, and on this moment I don't care. It is however wrong to dismiss porkens from all thinking. Because he hasn't been that protown.

now, assuming I am scum, and got a one shot doc power from Llama. would it make sense to claim blocked tomorrow? wouldn't that mean that scum cant block someone else? No matter what, you benefit if you wait with my lynch, and probably let me get killed by porkens after 3 posts

[mykonian]

please find for me where

I

claimed to be town because of what Llama did. I have been reasoning from being town, I never claimed to be confirmed.

so thank you for that strawman.

You miss in that whole reasoning that there is a RB, which is likely scum due to all the roles around. So tomorrow, I have to claim blocked if I'm scum or not. Please check your logic, as you aren't making sense.

and I already said that I don't know what porkens is, I just don't want him to be assumed town.

[mykonian]

please find for me where

I

claimed to be town because of what Llama did.

why would scum claim what I did.

You are twisting everything to your side. That was a reaction on Zilla's not believing, not a defense.

So tomorrow, I have to claim blocked if I'm scum or not.

Why?
If you are town.. and your AREN'T blocked.. why would you have to CLAIM blocked?
Only Scum would claim blocked if it weren't true, right? And setting it up so that you can claim that regardless.. a little suspect, IMO

[/quote]

because of the simple reason that with a scum rb, they are going to use it on me, to make sure they hit with their NK. Then incog also gets his answer: I pull the rb, tonight. makes me at least usefull.

Charter needs to post again.

I think we also need to revisit: why was KMD blocked when there was a claimed doctor already out?

Also Mykonian said that if we lynch him, Porkens will die; I didn't use my doc ability last night and never said I did; why would he assume that I did?

because you had claimed your role already. why wouldn't you use it?

and I thought I had already

unvote

d?

[mykonian]

because of the simple reason that with a scum rb, they are going to use it on me, to make sure they hit with their NK.

Are you saying Zilla is lying? Because with this reasoning, if there is even a scum RB... why didn't they Block Zilla

last night

?

YOu must either believe that Zilla is a liar, or that the RB is actually town, right?

I didn't believe the RB to be town, true. Mind if I think about this one?

Why would you be so desperate to live? I think because you are a

scum

-powerrole, and want to use it one more time..

would I claim vanilla, with only Llama's gift then? I could have had enough time for a fakeclaim, since start day one I was also a target.

but Camn, all we talk about is useless: I'm not going to convince you, because you already assumed me to be scum, and you only are going to see how what I say could be said as scum. You should wait for Charter and hope he votes me. You only make it easier for him by not making the thread bigger.

[mykonian]

I just realized: I really don't like KMD's position regarding Mykonian. He seems to think he's obvtown, but the way KMD is playing, you wouldn't know it.

And now that I look at him, he's still not scumhunting.

unvote: Mykonian
Vote: KMD

assumption: if KMD is scum, I would be likely town (buddying up)
if scum is still around, and I'm town, then why am I not mislynched?

busy week for the rest. I read most (I think) but nothing more

(and zilla, may I ask you, who haven't you thought scum till now?)

[mykonian]

Charter connected you to Zilla. Zilla became nearly confirmed, so that was pretty much gone.

and then charter had some weak points hidden in some kind of analysis, and voted Llama, maybe a nice target. By this time, he could have made something better.

vote Charter

[mykonian]

because she attacks you? poor child...

well, when I was not that active, you have been at least doing some talking that has more use to the game then talking about me. Today, it seems, my practicum will be short, so I can give some attention to this game in about 2 hours.

two questions for Camn: do you expect scum to actively defend eachother, like KMD did? It is a connection easily pointed out, and almost never true. I think you know that.

also, in case you are wrong, who is your third most likely scum?

[mykonian]

I guess my question is more: what has happened that made you think zilla might have gotten her power from LF?

but it does make sure that someone has a doc power night one, and later LF's power takes over. Seen her CC, and seen that a scum one shot doc wouldn't make a lot sense (because a town one shot doc fits nicely with LF) I think zilla is town.

but that doesn't mean I agree with her. Zilla, you have talked about a few players, could you tell me what you think about Incognito and Camn?

[mykonian]

Camn had some points about a hypothetic scum one shot doc. But never mind, I rather wanted to know what your problem with those posts were. As you commented only in a short post.

and seriously, L-1 will become normal for me if you vote me for something like that.

Also, what's the point of your asking me for my opinion on Incognito and Camn?

those two are the only ones where not a lot of opinions are given about, in my opinion.

[mykonian]

Mykonian needs to work on his town game...

knows this, but isn't the only one that got him lynched. But if you have great hints, of course I'm listening!

and a mod you don't really notice is a great mod.

[mykonian]

Myk: you need to play more aggressively. Your play always looks too opportunistic, and devoid of real scumhunting. Most games, it seems you let town think for you, and that looks mega suspicious.

ok, I can see that. being more clear about what I think, can't hurt, even when I'm wrong later. thank you.