The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[Lamont_Cranston]

/confirm it baby!

[Lamont_Cranston]

@MOD: I am confirmed

Yes you are, well done for noticing.

[Lamont_Cranston]

^^^^ hee hee

[Lamont_Cranston]

Hey Tajo I saw you in Medieval Mafia, you were great.

[Lamont_Cranston]

That'd be 3

[Lamont_Cranston]

Naww, I'm reading it. I'm on page 41 right now. An amazing game. I hope this game is as good

[Lamont_Cranston]

Omgosh! First Post!?

Vote Queen Elizabeth II

I want a royal kinighthood like our Mod!

[Lamont_Cranston]

LOL ya I know Ed and you deserved it too

[Lamont_Cranston]

Vote: UnofficialRulerofEveryone

Try ruling when you're dead ~!

lol, I think I'll go with someone a little less obvious

Vote: Sajin

Really, and how is Sajin "less obvious"?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Good thinkiing Ho!

oops I mean hohum sorry :8)

[Lamont_Cranston]

lol, I think I'll go with someone a little less obvious

Vote: Sajin

Really, and how is Sajin "less obvious"?

Did you over look his other comment?
Expect the unexpected? [/quote]

Very nice. Thank you.

Unvote, Vote Sajin

[Lamont_Cranston]

Pimp and Ho.. I see a connection here! We have a pairing!

LMAO! I can tell -- this game is going to be awesome!

[Lamont_Cranston]

I have to ask, are you a SilkyJohnson alt or in some way in the running for hater of the year?

If the answer is no, why the sudden vote change in the RVS.

1) ALT -- No defintely not.

2) I like the way she is thinking here and because of that I have joined her on the best vote I can see this early in the game.

Therefore my vote is no longer "random".

And you are voting me, why?

[Lamont_Cranston]

I'm voting you for humor value. It's what one does while one resides within the cozy confines of the random voting stage.

How is it that you're already managing to draw conclusions?

Conclusions are a natural result of the flow of the game which begins when the first pixel hits after day 1 begins.

The question is, "What conclusion have I drawn?"

And the answer is, "We shall see."

[Lamont_Cranston]

Conclusions are a natural result of the flow of the game which begins when the first pixel hits after day 1 begins.

Do you think the natural course of a game with 19 people in it (most of whom haven't chimed in yet BTW) warrants drawing conclusions 3 pages into day 1?

The flow begins from the first post. So, yes.

The question is, "What conclusion have I drawn?"

And the answer is, "We shall see."

Right, so what conclusions have you drawn? Because when you say stuff like:

2) I like the way she is thinking here and because of that I have joined her on the best vote I can see this early in the game.

Therefore my vote is no longer "random".

It would lead one to believe within a reasonable degree of accuracy that you have A) drawn a conclusion and B) felt justified in your vote.

The conclusion I have drawn is that this is the best place for my vote atm as I have previously stated.

If you're just full shit and you're really not happy with your vote that's fine too. Just say so. Nobody is going to pester you about a vote change this early in the game.

Gee, thanks. We'll see if any shit sticks. Your kindness has been noted.

Being all mysterious about your intentions by repeating my questions is not the right approach, though.

Thanks for sharing.

[Lamont_Cranston]

....
on a more serious note, I'm not liking Lamont's

circumlocution...

Please define.

[Lamont_Cranston]

LOL. I use Onelook thank you.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Quick definitions (interpolation)

▸ noun: (mathematics) calculation of the value of a function between the values already known
▸ noun: a message (spoken or written) that is introduced or inserted ("With the help of his friend's interpolations his story was eventually told")
▸ noun: the action of interjecting or interposing an action or remark that interrupts

[Lamont_Cranston]

Enough with the spastic voting please, at least until more people have had a chance to discover the fact that the game has begun.

I like your avatar, Ho.

[Lamont_Cranston]

This is funny but, I can see a village argument for both Ho and Ed here.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Oh wow, you mean your name isn't Ed? LOL.

[Lamont_Cranston]

LOL! I might wanna call you Mished then

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well so far not much??

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok. I kind of thought that was a bit over the top myself.

Unvote, Vote Hohum

[Lamont_Cranston]

Choose wisely...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Who is that elderly woman anyway? Is she royalty?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Wow, nice point. When you put it that way it sounds lke it would of been wishful thinking.

[Lamont_Cranston]

We haven't heard much from about 8 people so far...

[Lamont_Cranston]

I'm just an innocent schoolboy

*hides in a corner*

This is a round room...

[Lamont_Cranston]

This just in, my bodyguard sucks.

No vote at present, but tune in later.

Stay classy, Chzo Manor!

I miss you.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well of course that is 7.5 WOMEN'S -- quite a different story...

[Lamont_Cranston]

There are a number of people that are not voting/being active at this point but its not like our deadline is anywhere close or anything...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Of course scum like to hide in inactivity and would prefer the village tear itself apart.

[Lamont_Cranston]

we need to generate discussion. how does everyone feel about no lynches?

Anyone who advocates NL Day 1 is advocating an advantage for the Mafi. Basically its like saying, "Let's pretend D1 never happened".

Why would you even think of advocating this?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ya static probabilities suck. The village loses before the odds get good anyway. We as village have to BEAT the odds by logical elimination/deduction.

I would recommend the village work on getting two top suspects identified and forming a BW on both.

For now,

FoS Shadow Knight

[Lamont_Cranston]

We should definitely lynch D1. Who I'm not sure yet.

@Pyro

: why the hesitation?

[Lamont_Cranston]

I want to hear from:

Tajo
Steph
Unofficial
Malkon
Alabaska

I'd like to hear more from:

Pyro
Devastation
Nueva
Xtoxm
Kratos

:/

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well ALL I'm REALLY saying is I'd like us all to work as a team to start identifying likely scum/lynch candidates and get the village moving in a healthy direction.

My player read is divided into two sections:

a) Top scummy players
b) Inactive/semi-lurking players

The B-list I have posted.

[Lamont_Cranston]

wait.

You want to lynch before everyone confirms? o_o

No I was referring to the fact that Pyro was basicaally contentless thus far and I consider that semi-lurking; although I am clear on the fact it is still early...

[Lamont_Cranston]

EBWOP:

Well ALL I'm REALLY saying is I'd like us all to work as a team to start identifying likely scum/lynch candidates and get the village moving in a healthy direction.

My player read is divided into two sections:

a) Top scummy players
b) Inactive/semi-lurking players

The B-list I have posted.

You sound like you're trying to steer the town rather than scum hunt.

FoS

Hohum I AM trying to steer the village. I am trying to steer it in the direction of scum hunting.

So far we have a heavy weight of people that are totally inactive OR semi-lurking without any substantive posts.

This is unhealthy and must change.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Sad times then, it'd be nice to have people weigh in

so I can stop voting for every other person that comes around...

^^^ Kinda like that sorta...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Relax. We'll get to it. These things always run their natural course. It doesn't make sense to go very far right now while we're still waiting for people to chime in because they'll just be that much further behind.

I agree as long as we don't get lazy and allow a sub-culture of semi-lurking

Steering is bad. I automatically distrust anyone who tries as a matter of policy.

Right, I have refrained at this point from getting very specific on certain indivdiuals. My steering is a general one.

more productive than banter at any rate.

I know this is a large game so I'll try to cut down on my multi-posting.

Ok me too. If it doesn't change, we need to make the semi-lurkers pay. Over and out.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Oh BTW Lamont:

I noticed you're still voting me. You've had at least 12 hours to make up some justification, so let's hear it.

Actually, I have maybe a 50% village read on you at this point. I don't like how you overreached against me just because I changed my vote and it has been noted. I'm not sure I exactly like how you attempted to quell voting earlier; I'm not sure I can get a village read on that...

I need to explore a couple of possibilities concerning a few issues I would like clarified.

So I'm just "uncomfortable" with your performance so far and need to investigate further.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Lamont- Why do you think its ok to ever give an unclaimed unconfirmed entity the key to the town car?

fos Lamont

LMAO! We all are the driver here not me. All I'm saying is that if you are a semi-lurker after awhile I am going to be mad with you and advocate your lynch. See my Wiki.

@Pyro:

What is your favorite lynch-candidate characteristic in Rd. 1?

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Nueva:

What is the minimum requirement for a person to be considered lynchable in D1?

[Lamont_Cranston]

EBWOP ---> I mean for YOU to consider them to be lynchable... (sorry typed that while at work)

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Lamont- Why do you think its ok to ever give an unclaimed unconfirmed entity the key to the town car?

fos Lamont

LMAO! We all are the driver here not me. All I'm saying is that if you are a semi-lurker after awhile I am going to be mad with you and advocate your lynch. See my Wiki.

@Pyro:

What is your favorite lynch-candidate characteristic in Rd. 1?

LOL funny analogy:

Its kind of like we're all driving in a "Driver's Ed" car. Each of us take turns at the wheel. The majority opinion determines where we drive.

[Lamont_Cranston]

i'm here just sick

Wow sorry. Hope you feel better soon.

[Lamont_Cranston]

You forgot the " marks quote="hohum"

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Lamont- Why do you think its ok to ever give an unclaimed unconfirmed entity the key to the town car?

fos Lamont

LMAO! We all are the driver here not me. All I'm saying is that if you are a semi-lurker after awhile I am going to be mad with you and advocate your lynch. See my Wiki.

@Pyro:

What is your favorite lynch-candidate characteristic in Rd. 1?

The person who said we should not lynch.

Very interesting. I thought the same thing...

@Shadow Knight

Is the reason you advocated NL D1 because you are scum and you wanted a free pass into N1 with no evidence trail? After all you've played before and you're not brand new to Mafia, right??

[Lamont_Cranston]

Im here. Seems I didnt miss much.

Rereading.

Welcome Tajo. After reading Medeival Mafia its almost like a deja vu that you're here.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Nope, I was actually hoping someone would try and tear ME apart for "advocating" a no lynch. Lamont played with the bait, but no one really swallowed the hook like I was hoping.

If it was bait why back off of it so soon?? It was just starting to work...

This is intentional distancing from the statement.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Wow just missed it.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think Knight randed it because you both grabbed in the same minute.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Mod:

Can the elixir be sipped to get some feel for what it might do?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Truth is we have no idea what these gifts are going to do, so we should discard them and treat the setup as if it were a vanilla setup.

^^^ This.

++town imo.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Tajo:

What is your opinon on this decanter?

[Lamont_Cranston]

@ Xtoxm:

Do you think there is any chance at all that an item like this can be manipulated by scum to become "confirmed townie" without actually being one?

[Lamont_Cranston]

If I was scum I'd be reluctant to drink as the village has the advantage of numbers. There is no guarantee it does not kill and I think your statement that "it has to be a balancer" is a overly broad assumption.

I think the town maintains the advantage by not using it.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I am 100% in favor of someone drinking the drink.

I am against the idea of random.org, since we'll just read into however a given person's "randomization" goes. Let's just pick someone. I pick Lamont.

Why do you think Lamont should drink it?

Because, given his playstyle, I think it will be helpful to know whether he's town or scum, and the drink may facilitate that, or perhaps facilitate other scumhunting opportunities.

Posts like this and any others advocating forcing it on anyone are very anti-town imo.

Posts volunteering to drink are potentially anti-town.

The town doesn't need to drink a potentially deadly liquid of unknown properties to gain an advantage and it is foolish to do so.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Vote Naomi

285 looks very much like newb-scum to me.

285 looks like pro-town to me.

Fos Xtoxm

[Lamont_Cranston]

Random is the only way to do it. If we decide on drinking it EVERYONE should be put in the random.
If we don't put everyone on random there's a chance people may avoid it with reasons we don't know yet. Or like Lament said in post 278.
I don't think discussion should be about who drinks it but more about if we should actually drink it or not.

Random is not going to work. Someone can fake that they "randomized" it, and even if they don't, they'll be suspected of it. I mean, let me know if I'm missing something, but we might as well all agree on doing something instead of agreeing to a process that's easily corrupted.

Dice roll is safe and can't be corrupted. See my post 261 and 262 where I rolled a dice of 19 and number 2 AKA Pyro came as result.

That random roll is TOTALLY corrubtible because Hohum gets to choose whether or not he wants to use it. Because you rolled it BEFORE he made the choice.

Now, if he comes out and says: "I'm rolling and whoever it comes up as from the list is getting it no matter what" -- that IS random but I'm against it. I think its anti-town to force it on ANYONE and dangerous to the town to volunteer to drink it.

Its just not necessary.

[Lamont_Cranston]

The dice code on this forum is sufficiently random for me. Why is it not for you steph? Your also the one who wanted it to go to lamont because he wanted it....why? How would it help us determine his playstyle on him in particular over someone else?

vote Stephoscope

fos Lamont

I like your logic here Sajin, but I would more broadly apply it to ANYONE that advocates forcing of the liquid; "insert recipient name HERE".

FoS Steph

[Lamont_Cranston]

Conversely, I think not wanting anyone to drink the drink is anti-town. It's usually a townie who gets lynched on day one. Throwing a wrench into things and making the game more interesting should lead to more things to analyze, more discussion, and more chances to find scum...and I think all of that is very much pro-town.

You MUST be joking. At best the argument about the liquid is WIFOM and at worst its anti-town.

Anyone advocating forcing it on anyone should be considered to be asking it to be forced on themselves

AND if I held the liquid I would give it to no one.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Steph

, are you a big fan of blind vig-killing on the first day?

[Lamont_Cranston]

If I was scum I'd be reluctant to drink

QFT

[Lamont_Cranston]

LOL. Nooooo, let the record show this:

1) If I was scum I would be terrified to drink it because the risk would be proportionately greater to my faction.

2) I think its anti-town to force it on anyone because of the potential harm to the town which is not necessary.

3) I think its potentially anti-town to volunteer to drink (see #2) AND it could be abused because it may be that only the drinker knows what the effects will be and then WHO KNOWS what might happen.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Steph

, are you a big fan of blind vig-killing on the first day?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Now boys and girls, I think its time to break out in song.

This '80s funk classic goes out to the Mod and all my elixir fans out there:

Listen

[/url]

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Steph

, are you a big fan of blind vig-killing on the first day?

Although I'm not even trying to guess what the drink does, I really doubt it just kills the drinker.

Steph it could do worse. Why should the town take the risk? Just for the disntinct possibility that a townie could permanently become a Mafi, it should be rejected.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Either way if I don't know what's in it then I'm not drinking it personally, even if it means I'll be helping someone else.

I think by extension, this way of thinking should be applied to the town as a whole:

"

Either way if I don't know what's in it then WE'RE not drinking it.

"

[Lamont_Cranston]

1) If I

was

scum I would be terrified to drink it because the risk would be proportionately greater to my faction.

Lamont... What's worse than that?

Well worse than a town death would be a conversion from town to Mafi or neutral. This is not beyond the pale; there IS a role called "Amnesiac" which assumes roles as part of its role function.

[Lamont_Cranston]

So you're ok with something that you don't care to speculate on (so therefore you admit that it *can* be very bad) and to allow that to go to somebody that potentially might balance the town side due to randomness? (

since even in the flavor/sign-ups the mod said that this game is probably not going to be that fair to the town

) I prefer not to take chances in a closed setup that's somewhat bastardized already, and probably balanced somewhat against the town, just judging from my knowledge of the x games a stranger series.

^^^ Wat he sed.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I could say the same thing about a Vig shot- The vig could kill a townie. Does this mean the Vig should not shoot? The lynch could lynch a townie. Are you advocating no lynch then?

A lynch is an informed decision to reveal the role and remove from the game a particular player. The results are almost 100% guaranteed.

Giving an item to someone where the results are unknown is a total

crap shoot

, emphasis on

CRAP

.

I'm not a big fan of vigging without a concrete reason and I am a HUGE fan of a fully informed village lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Tajo:

What do you think of post #318?

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think the Mods intentions are WIFOM almost exactlyh as presented in the movie itself. BOTH goblets are poisoned here imo.

[Lamont_Cranston]

If, for the "good" of the town it has to be drunk, I can only advocate a total and dedicated random assignment with the criteria specified before the role.

[Lamont_Cranston]

* roll

[Lamont_Cranston]

I could say the same thing about a Vig shot- The vig could kill a townie. Does this mean the Vig should not shoot? The lynch could lynch a townie. Are you advocating no lynch then?

A lynch is an informed decision to reveal the role and remove from the game a particular player. The results are almost 100% guaranteed.

Giving an item to someone where the results are unknown is a total

crap shoot

, emphasis on

CRAP

.

I'm not a big fan of vigging without a concrete reason and I am a HUGE fan of a fully informed village lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

As a side note, the following people have become semi-lurkers:

Unofficial
Nueva
Malkon

(100% lurk)

Alabaska

(sickness verified?)

Kratos
Pablo

For my opinion of the performance of these players, please see my wiki.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Amish, I think at this point whether Mafi want to drink it or not is major WIFOM.

What do you think about the potential abuse factor that could be possible? Does it bother you enough to use a random assignment instead?

Frankly with all this confusion on just trying to apply logic to its use, I think your best argument is not to use it and the following players have advocated this:

Devastation
Hohum
Amish Ed
Naomi
Lamont_Cranston

Just want the record to be clear because I am in 100% agreement with the fact that the town is more likely to be harmed by its use.

I only posted the random assignment because I was going to sleep.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok my wiki has been deleted and this does not appear in their logs.

I won't be using the Wiki feature anymore...

Anyway, my wiki stated that if a person is a semi-lurker (posting content just frequently enough to avoid replacement and said content is not analysis which helps the town) I will advocate their lynch mercilessly. Total lurkers I will let replace however.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok the two prevailing arguments are:

1) This thing is more likely to hurt the town than help it -- let it go away.

2) The item is something that itself needs to be explored for potential benefit to the town, letting it go is hurting the town.

Since:

A) The Mod has said he hates townies and wants to mind screw them
B) Chzo is all about villagers dying in a bloody way so a bodily-dispossessed boy can walk the earth again, killing everyone.
C) There is at least 2/3 more town than Mafi/Neutral

I don't think #2 is safe and I think it is anti-village to advocate #2.

If we had an item with more definite properties I could advocate #2 but since this is totally unpredictable, see A-C.

[Lamont_Cranston]

As one who played the games I can see the thought process behind the Chzo theme analysis, but if we operate by that mindset, we'll end up using nothing the entire game!

That's no fun.

Advocating fun over village safety to me sounds scummy.

If we have a vanilla townie volunteer

, if it messes with PRs then it won't be that big of a deal.

THIS IS ROLEFISHING. THIS IS ANTI-TOWN.

Unvote, Vote Pablo

[Lamont_Cranston]

This is the reason why this whole elixir thing is bad for the town. The Mafi can too easily read what is going on.

[Lamont_Cranston]

And you forgot to include that Amish agrees that your idea is rolefishing...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Also, Amished, in the first X-Days game, wasn't it

just touching ordinary household objects (the welder gear) that got you possessed by DeFoe

? I'm not even sure if "normal" items are safe.

Dear goodness, with this info (which I was unaware of),

how can you possibly want this item used if you are town??

[Lamont_Cranston]

I cannot comprehend why any pro-town role would not want this item used.

@Amish:

You are saying this is a town position??

[Lamont_Cranston]

Your idea helps the mafia lynch power roles more easily. If you know who the regular townies than you know who isn't a power role. Also, if power roles claim that they are townies then that contradicts the point of you proposal. Thank you for pointing out that you volunteered, for this is evidence against you. Your proposal contradicts the volunteering system, this leads me to believe that the only reason why you volunteered is not look suspicious.

QFT

[Lamont_Cranston]

However, with what I remembered about the OBA (order of blessed agonies, see next paragraph) I'd be wary of those volunteering as they're necessarily evil and would probably know the effects of some of the items.

If this game follows the series kinda at all (which I believe it does) we also have to be aware of the Order of Blessed Agonies. It's like a cult that worships basically the scum. Forgot about those guys. This raises xtoxm up on my list as he has always been eager to drink the liquid.

It very well could be beneficial for the cult to suffer (name and their role in the game both suggest it), and for the water to be harmful to the town benefiting the cult. The "evil gods" of the the game (the prince and chzo) would likely be immune to anything that happened as not even shooting them had any effect as evidenced by the game.

With that, I *strongly* suggest disposing of the container altogether.

My thoughts exactly.

I haven't played the 3rd game, but I played the first two; the original one in the manor and the one in space (its 4th dimensional sequel).

List of volunteers:

Shadow Knight
Stephoscope
Xtoxm
Pablo

I'm not sure if Sajin wanted to drink, I will need to review his posts...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok Sajin was ANTI-volunteer.

Along these analysis lines, there is another larger group that advocates random forced usage.

Their list to follow...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Frankly with all this confusion on just trying to apply logic to its use, I think your best argument is not to use it and the following players have advocated this:

Devastation
Hohum
Amish Ed
Naomi
Lamont_Cranston

Just want the record to be clear because I am in 100% agreement with the fact that the town is more likely to be harmed by its use.

The above have all taken village positions here.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I will wait until AJ gets back to the present before responding... 9.9

[Lamont_Cranston]

Thankyou for bringing some rationality to the game, AJ.

If it is random or nothing, which it does appear to be, we have a larger chance of hitting town. I am now convinced that it has a negative effect.

Do you support no lynching on D1? This is THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT. Jesus.

It most certainly is not. No-lynching NEVER converts a player to pro-mafi/neutral (which is worse than outright death).

[Lamont_Cranston]

Amished is probably scum. I've seen him as town, and I don't see him acting like this as town. He's a good player, and it's obvious wasting items will be to the town's detriment. Only scum want items going to waste.

Picking someone/having a volunteer would be better, but a random is fine. We need to find out what it's going to do. This is the FIRST ITEM, on DAY ONE.

Have you been reading the thread? Post to follow of all the reasons why using the elixir is BAD for the town.

[Lamont_Cranston]

really. information = good for town

outguessing the mod = bad for town

So a townie converts to Mafi and pretends to be silenced. Good for town??

[Lamont_Cranston]

Amished is probably scum.

Is Pablo your scum buddy?? You would do better to bus him because this crap argument isn't going to fly.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I am looking past the arguments of what the drink may or may not do

to any one player, and looking at the big picture of more effective scumhunting starting right now.

This is the problem with advocating drinking the elixir here in this game. What affects one town player affects the entire town.

Looking past what the elixir is likely to do based on the evidence we DO have is ANTI-town. It is FAR more anti-town then simply bypassing an informational source. The potential results of the liquid when considered with the anti-town bias of the Mod and theme are more likely to hurt the town than help it.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Blindly saying "This is an informational source, we need the info regardless of what it does and anytone who opposes this is scum" is not helpful to the town.

Why advocate this way??

[Lamont_Cranston]

I'm wondering why Lamont is so adamant about the idea of it changing people's alignment.

I am using just as one example of a result that is even worse for the town than an outright townie death.

We are Chzo manor! Its a deadly and ugly place. Its not a pro-town place.

[Lamont_Cranston]

i agree that we should do this randomly,

but if the randomly chosen person does not want to do it, then they don't have to.

ORLY?

Please explain to me how that is RANDOM??

Just be honest: Its a bad idea to drink this.

That is far better than the schizophrenic kind of thinking you just exhibited.

I find this statement to be incredibly scummy sounding.

FoS AJ

[Lamont_Cranston]

Vote Naomi

285 looks very much like newb-scum to me.

285 looks like pro-town to me.

Fos Xtoxm

you're kidding right

i can understand disagreeing that it is noobscum, but going as far as to call it pro-town is quite a reach

FoS: Lamont

I think you three need to clarify this case against Naomi because I'm just not seeing it. For the most part she has held sane views. So far you are pulling two posts out and I haven't seen a really good explanation yet.

@Xtoxm, AJ:

Why are you totally silent on Pablo which is an OBVIOUS case?

Btw, are you two on some kind of team together? Xtoxm seemed pretty interested in making sure you wouldn't be replaced AJ...

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Lamont I am still waiting for your answer to my question.

we need to generate discussion. how does everyone feel about no lynches?

Anyone who advocates NL Day 1 is advocating an advantage for the Mafi. Basically its like saying, "Let's pretend D1 never happened".

Why would you even think of advocating this?

[Lamont_Cranston]

@MOD: The vote count is incorrect Nueva IS voting for Naomi.

Towards that end, I'm finding

Nueva

as a semi-lurker. He has like 5 posts this whole game and no content whatsoever.

Unofficial
Kratos

MOD: Please prod Kratos 9.9

Also join the list.

[Lamont_Cranston]

http://www.chefelf.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6009

Is a list of walkthroughs for all 4 games. I didn't find any mention of a red liquid. There are the pills that make Trilby go to the shadow realm but thats it.

There is a bottle of wine but its not used except for some reason it has to be taken before Trilby can find the dead professor. Does anyone remember how this works from Trilby's Notes?

[Lamont_Cranston]

So you're ok with something that you don't care to speculate on (so therefore you admit that it *can* be very bad) and to allow that to go to somebody that potentially might balance the town side due to randomness? (

since even in the flavor/sign-ups the mod said that this game is probably not going to be that fair to the town

) I prefer not to take chances in a closed setup that's somewhat bastardized already, and probably balanced somewhat against the town, just judging from my knowledge of the x games a stranger series.

^^^ Wat he sed.

(THE ABOVE IS POST #318)

@Tajo:

What do you think of post #318?

I think its a reasonable argument but we should see this as gambling.

For reference, my first idea was to let the item go without using it on anyone. We avoid the randomness of the item and then concentrate on scumhunting ftw.

<<<< Town argument.

But then the point that prob items were considered in the balance of the game was made.

since even in the flavor/sign-ups the mod said that this game is probably not going to be that fair to the town

And then I started thinking. If KOC wanted us to use items (since its obvious that items are going to be a big part of this game)

he would start the game with a)an item that would not be so detrimental to the town or b)an item advantageous to the town.

since even in the flavor/sign-ups the mod said that this game is probably not going to be that fair to the town

My comments in green.

So WHO is outguessing the Mod here??

Does anyone else see this argument as so illogical coming from Tajo who is

usually

a pillar of good gameplay??

FoS Tajo

[Lamont_Cranston]

At this point, volunteering is anti-town. There should be NO more volunteers.

I am starting to understand Xtoxm's argument more of an initial "acid test" just to be sure we aren't throwing away what is meant to help us.

Based on the above logic, I think that forcing it on the town's lynch candidate would make sense.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Which "noobie quiz" are you referring to, AJ?

the one you obviously haven't taken

vigging night 0 is a good idea

I don't vig n0.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I've seen many games blown by an irresponsible vig.

[Lamont_Cranston]

fine then since you guys want to give it to Naomi since she is currently our lynch target go ahead

Until someone is at L-2 there really can't be any discussion on whether or not they are the town lynch candidate.

The votecount is on page 17 at this point...

[Lamont_Cranston]

fine then since you guys want to give it to Naomi since she is currently our lynch target go ahead

Until someone is at L-2 there really can't be any discussion on whether or not they are the town lynch candidate.

The votecount is on page 17 at this point...

Also, I know Naomi has alot of votes but I still don't understand what the case is against her. I DO see how her views on the elixir have been inconsistent, but I haven't seen how this makes her scum...

[Lamont_Cranston]

The only reason I would want to give the item to anyone is, as Xtoxm said, as an acid test to see how these items are to be viewed in the future.

A) Volunteers -- Mega rolefishing, good for the Mafi.
B) Random -- Risks harming a PR
C) Lynch Candidate -- We can be sure we don't have a PR AND view the results before dispatching them. Everything can be verified after they flip.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think you've let Xtoxm inside your head because your logic has gone out the window.

I agree that we might not specifically not want to lynch the person who drinks it, as it could be beneficial/change how we view the game, especially regarding the person who drinks it.

Even though that I believe that the potion is more likely to be harmful, I won't just discount the fact that it could be beneficial.

If your concern is that it is going to be beneficial then why give it to somebody scummy at all? Xtoxm's argument here is that we need to see what the potion will do, why give a potential benefit to scum that is going to live?

(It's somewhat convoluted, but if anybody needs me to clarify anything, please ask).

<<< that.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Exactly. Anyone thinking it is in our best interest to give THIS item to a L-1 ( Scum in town's eyes ) should be lynched themselves for obvious reasons.

For the record.

Unvote

RVS vote and

FoS

: Everyone voting for Naomi without posting a case.

I don't see your "obvious" reasons. The purpose for the elixir being consumed (in Xtoxm's argument) is to test the item to see if future items will be beneficial to the town.

The reason it shouldn't be randomly given away is to avoid hurting town PR's. There is no better way to avoid that (without giving useful info to the Mafi) then by giving it to the town BW choice.

Saying that we should give it to someone that is "kinda scummy but not TOO much" makes like ZERO sense and there is no proof that this "scummy" person isn't a PR anyway.

Let's just see what the item does and move on from there.

[Lamont_Cranston]

What I think he is saying is that if we force it upon a L-1 scum then they would suicide rather than give us the info.

Well if they flip scum then who cares, we got scum D1, WOOT!

Also it has been advocated that the results could be expected to be visible. So even if they are actually scum they might be forced to reveal the effects regardless if they want to or not. But who cares, they're scum -- WOOHOO!

Also on your Naomi it is very clear she is very inconsistent and all over the map.

Does this mean she is scum though?

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think it's more likely to be harmful than beneficial, but since I have no idea whether or not it will be either (a slightly off center in the good/bad). Then if the decanter goes to an off center player, it's still in line with what I feel about the decanter.

Good effect: |-------------------\-----| Bad Effect
Town player | ------------------\-----| Scummy player

(Trying to show that they'll kinda line up.)

I'm trying to get the best of all worlds here. If it's harmful, it'll be on a more scummy player without immediately getting rid of a top lynch candidate and forcing us into an uncomfortable situation come deadline (if it goes that far). If it's helpful, it's then not going to the scummiest player out there and it's more likely that somebody *not* as scummy (therefore slightly townie) will then have the effect rather than the top lynch candidate.

@Nyx: My candidate probably wouldn't exactly line up with everybody else's though I'd be willing to take ~3rd-6th scummiest player in my view. I haven't made a list like that yet so I'd have to go through everybody. Also, we haven't heard a whole heck of a lot from some of our players which would be helpful in generating that list.

I don't really like how your view has changed so much. All of your previously stated reasons for nobody getting it have been thrown out the window and you are for complete & free forced distribution!

The only way I feel safe with that is if we have a town-wide vote on who gets it. At least that way the town will have the majority of the votes above the mafi/faction(s).

I can't believe I'm being forced to think this way But I have to see X's point -- these items MAY be necessary for us to balance the game.

At least the village will take the least amount of damage because we're doing it now.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think it's more likely to be harmful than beneficial, but since I have no idea whether or not it will be either (a slightly off center in the good/bad). Then if the decanter goes to an off center player, it's still in line with what I feel about the decanter.

Good effect: |-------------------\-----| Bad Effect
Town player | ------------------\-----| Scummy player

(Trying to show that they'll kinda line up.)

I'm trying to get the best of all worlds here. If it's harmful, it'll be on a more scummy player without immediately getting rid of a top lynch candidate and forcing us into an uncomfortable situation come deadline (if it goes that far). If it's helpful, it's then not going to the scummiest player out there and it's more likely that somebody *not* as scummy (therefore slightly townie) will then have the effect rather than the top lynch candidate.

@Nyx: My candidate probably wouldn't exactly line up with everybody else's though I'd be willing to take ~3rd-6th scummiest player in my view. I haven't made a list like that yet so I'd have to go through everybody. Also, we haven't heard a whole heck of a lot from some of our players which would be helpful in generating that list.

I don't really like how your view has changed so much. All of your previously stated reasons for nobody getting it have been thrown out the window and you are for complete & free forced distribution!

The only way I feel safe with that is if we have a town-wide vote on who gets it. At least that way the town will have the majority of the votes above the mafi/faction(s).

I can't believe I'm being forced to think this way But I have to see X's point -- these items MAY be necessary for us to balance the game.

At least the village will take the least amount of damage because we're doing it now.

Btw, anything short of village wide vote as a strong scum tell here.

[Lamont_Cranston]

*is (sorry, at work)

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think you three need to clarify this case against Naomi because I'm just not seeing it. For the most part she has held sane views. So far you are pulling two posts out and I haven't seen a really good explanation yet.

most of it makes sense, technically. the problem is, almost every time, someone else has said it first. she parrots people to the point of contradicting herself. she hasn't really added anything to this game other than being noncommittal and pasting again what others have said.

I can make the same case for Naomi as you did for Pablo except the case against pablo is

stronger

.

There are also plenty of people that have contributed far less than Naomi and frankly all I've gotten from her so far is a village read that is easily led under pressure.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I really don't care who drinks it.
I really have no idea what it can do. Speculation is bad anyway.

But, SOMEONE should drink it.

Hah.

Xtoxm's rush to grab/drink/take the decanter is what has me worried
*snip*

Amished,
are you implying you think other people have inside information about the decanter or items in general?

---

Ok so..

I still really don't care who drinks the decanter...

---

I agree with Alaska.

*Awaits Pyro case*
A lot of people agree with you... I think you're going over the top and you're a little bit pushy...

Fos Pyro

... Pushy?

He hasn't forced anyone to believe see his viewpoint. He's just been... right.

Right =/= Pushy

---

Other than that... if this game is made to be anti-town, I'll agree with what other people said before. It seems like a better action -

Just play it like an "everyone is a Vanilla Townie" game and avoid using these items we don't know the effects to.

This appears quite out of place based on where this argument currently stands...

Please explain why Xtoxm's argument about proving the item early in the game is bad for the town...

FoS Sironi

[Lamont_Cranston]

Anyone who uses or suggests the use of any items on anyone, regardless of their scumminess or method of selection, is making themselves look scummy in mye eyes.

I agree with you. I think the best thing to do is ignore the items -- BUT, when Xtoxm quoted how there are day and night items and how it COULD be a "battle of items", it made sense to me that we should try ONE item out to see if this is true.

Now it remains for the best way to choose how it should be used. I think volunteers is a bad way to go because of the potential abuse & encouraging volunteers can also be a subtle form of rolefishing. Randomization has the terrible possibility of killing a village power role.

Specific assignment from any individual or small group of individuals is terribly scummy as well.

I think the only way it can be safely assigned is for a village-wide vote. All faction(s) will be outnumbered by the total number of town votes which gives the assignment the greatest chance of being town-oriented. Anything less than this I hold to be scummy.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Anyone who uses or suggests the use of any items on anyone, regardless of their scumminess or method of selection, is making themselves look scummy in mye eyes.

I agree with you. I think the best thing to do is ignore the items -- BUT, when Xtoxm quoted how there are day and night items and how it COULD be a "battle of items", it made sense to me that we should try ONE item out to see if this is true.

Now it remains for the best way to choose how it should be used. I think volunteers is a bad way to go because of the potential abuse & encouraging volunteers can also be a subtle form of rolefishing. Randomization has the terrible possibility of killing a village power role.

Specific assignment from any individual or small group of individuals is terribly scummy as well.

I think the only way it can be safely assigned is for a village-wide vote. All faction(s) will be outnumbered by the total number of town votes which gives the assignment the greatest chance of being town-oriented. Anything less than this I hold to be scummy.

Devastation, you are very high on my village list right now. Please respond to the bolded green statement because I think I am going to be forced to hold opposing the indicated concept as scummy.

It hurts me deeply to say that because it is a concept after my own heart... :'(

[Lamont_Cranston]

Anyone who uses or suggests the use of any items on anyone, regardless of their scumminess or method of selection, is making themselves look scummy in mye eyes.

I agree with you.

good god this game is full of fail

why in the world would you want to waste possible information

I've addressed this

repeatedly

in previous posts.

[Lamont_Cranston]

A battle of items would require a higher rate of items

compared to what we get now,

and this might happen

.

---

Wow, look who's here!? It's Spock!!

__________________________

"Devestation, you above all people should know that '

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one!'"

---

Thanks Spock for weighing in here!

@Devastation, if the "battle of items" is taking place as you say, how much damage would the village be taking by ignoring the village items?

[/img]

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ya I know, its almost an act of genius that he left when he did.

@Nyx:

What do you think about the relatively high odds that random forcing the elixir will hit a town power role?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well, be fair--I advocate that we all vote on whom to force it to. And I'm sure there are more townies than scum that'd be voting...

Well, it took me awhile but it looks like we finally agree.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lurker List

Unofficial
Nueva Vida
Kratos

By the way, when the votes are cast for who receives the elixir, EVERYONE should vote. I think anyone who doesn't vote should be up for lynching.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok lets start the voting for the decanter

Sure, why not. I vote for Lamont. To restate: I believe using it on a player like him is a good idea because it will hopefully make it obvious whether or not he's town aligned, letting us use his enthusiasm for good or letting us get rid of him if he's scum, and make overall scumhunting easier as well.

I do not expect the drink to kill him outright or any such thing--frankly, I'm banking that it won't.

Hmmm, well I don't want the elixir to go to lurkers, so they're out...

I am trying to give it to the best person for the town to drink (which doesn't necessarily mean a scummy person).

My initial list is:

Pyro
Sironi
Shadow Knight
Xtoxm

I think

Sironi

is the best candidate and my vote is for him to get the elixir.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I originally thought random was good but I think village vote is even better.

[Lamont_Cranston]

^^^ Now who's whining!

[Lamont_Cranston]

Btw I think self-voting is very anti-town. I don't think it should be allowed for the elixir...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Also my vote is for

Sironi

not Pyro

but great votecount

[Lamont_Cranston]

EBWODP- What I would have preferred is to have people either volunteer or give their reason for not wanting to drink it. Then the town could choose which of the volunteers should drink it. It gives us 2 decisions we can analyze from one item.

Self-voting should be forbidden. Both you and Pablo are rolefishing by advocating this.

FoS Shadow Knight

[Lamont_Cranston]

Hohum all I can say is: I am so glad you left. I don't even care if you fake left. Your analysis is so helpful and insightful.

I don't think there is a direct correlation bewteen volunteer and "go poof"=d1 lynch.

What specifically do you think about the "battle of the items" possibility?

[Lamont_Cranston]

So far according to my memory there have only been two people that advocated d1-no-lynch as go poof:

Xtoxm & Sironi

I don't think there is a 3rd person...

And btw what do you think about random assignment vs. town-wide voting?

Would you accept a two-phase voting where the two top town chosen people are identified and then everyone votes on A or B?

[Lamont_Cranston]

CORRECTION: Xtoxm & SAJIN

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well towards that end, I would hope that everyone can enter their vote for who gets the elixir here and I would wholeheartedly endorse auto-lynch on anyone that does not vote.

I personally believe that a two-tiered voting system will be safer as a village-wide vote alone will be too diffused to be totally effective.

[Lamont_Cranston]

So far according to my memory there have only been two people that advocated d1-no-lynch as go poof:

Xtoxm & Sironi

I don't think there is a 3rd person...

And btw what do you think about random assignment vs. town-wide voting?

Would you accept a two-phase voting where the two top town chosen people are identified and then everyone votes on A or B?

Shadow knight.

Could you put that in blue if you are voting for Shadow Knight?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Pyromaniac wrote:
I will not be responsible for any sanity flips, killing of useful role, removing power or roleblocking that I may or may not receive from drinking the it. I will not be responsible for any harm that comes to the town from me drinking.


Sounds like you're setting yourself up for deniability later. Definitely a scum tactic. I would put you in the former category for this post.

I was merely making it absolutely clear that I would not voluntarily drink.

This is incorrect. The quoted post came right after you said you WOULD voluntarily drink. Why do you misquote it now??

FoS Pyro

[Lamont_Cranston]

OK. Maybe you CAN do it randomly. I will drink it then.

My apologies Pyro. You are correct, your "volunteering" was only if it came up randomly.

I'm sorry.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I dislike LaMont's buddying with hohum and Devastation

FoS: LaMont Cranston

yeah that quote about your stance is old hohum.

i hate how LaMont thinking something is anti-town makes more than half the people on this game think it too

people need to stop letting lamont lead the town

in fact, i'm gonna agree with stephescope, if this is how wee are gonna do it and

vote: LaMont Cranston

to drink the decanter

Actually I've "buddied up" with you, Xtoxm & Tajo now because I see the wisdom of your argument about the "battle of the items".

Me and Devastation have parted ways at this point. I see his position now as anti-town and will need a better explanation which directly explains why the "battle of the items" does not need to be explored now when the risk is at its least. I do not buy his excuse that "the items have to be more frequent".

In fact, officially note my assertion that his position is now +scum.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Uh pump the brakes, I have never in my life been in favor of no lynching on day one.

Please update the elixir vote count

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok good point -- EXCEPT, that's not what Xtoxm was referring to.

His theory is that the Day items are for the village to gain an advantage whereas the night items are for the MAFI to gain an advantage.

So, if the village passes up THIER item then they lose the potential power they should of had whereas the Mafi still get their item and can benefit from it.

The major clincher to this argument is that we can go a long way to verify it NOW when the harm to the village will be at its minimum since there are so many of us and their is the smallest chance of harming a PR.

[Lamont_Cranston]

So far according to my memory there have only been two people that advocated d1-no-lynch as go poof:

Xtoxm & SAJIN

I don't think there is a 3rd person...

And btw what do you think about random assignment vs. town-wide voting?

Would you accept a two-phase voting where the two top town chosen people are identified and then everyone votes on A or B?

What the hell?? I never advocated a D1 No Lynch, and wouldn't.

Both Xtoxm and SAJIN have said that not using the elixir is like advocating NL D1.

Hohum has said that he thinks there is a connection between those who say that and those that volunteer to consume the elixir.

In other words he is positing the theory that people are trying to force the elixir to be used on themselves with this argument.

I only posted the two people who said this from my recollection. I'm not saying I am agreeing with his theory but just posting data to help explore his theory.

[Lamont_Cranston]

"His theory is that the Day items are for the village to gain an advantage whereas the night items are for the MAFI to gain an advantage."

And how can we prove this without performing the irresponsible and not-conservative action of USING it?

That is correct, but the true question is

"What damage would the village suffer if this was the case and since the risk to the village of using an item increases with each passing day why not try ONE item to see if the "battle of items" is actually taking place?"

His point is that if we don't use any items we will never know and

could be seriously damaging our chances of winning

.

Nothing personal, but THIS is why I hold your position to be +scum.

On day two after the recipient has ignited into a fireball and been reduced tomere ashes, your position will again be +town.

But until then you're bad bad bad!

[Lamont_Cranston]

Players apologize.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I agree I did compare not using the decanter to no lynching.

That does not make me want to no lynch.

I am for using items.

We cannot be absolutely certain what items actually do. However, using the items can be used later to verify intents. Regardless of what the item actually does. Even mildly bad items (silenced for a day, losing vote for a day, roleblocked for a day) can be used to verify.

@Lamont: Do you agree that item usage could be used to verify people based on info received?

Right Hohum wasn't saying that. He was saying there is a connection to that and volunteering to drink the elixir (which I don't exactly see).

I DO agree with you that usage of the elixir MIGHT actually help to verify someone but COULD also be abused which is why to me, giving it to a volunteer is a no-no.

[Lamont_Cranston]

b]DeCanter vote Lamont Cranston[/b]

I just used random.org and well i got you. I prefer random for thingsss which I have no idea what they couuld do

This post really rubs me the wrong way. The whole purpose of voting is to AVOID the dangers of random distribution. But you decided to use random determination anyway...

I actually find it hard to believe you actually randomized your vote and instead you are trying to avoid responsibility for it.

At least your lack of intelligent choice is minimized because you only have one vote.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@devastation:

Could you please respond specifically to post #615 (the bolded text)??

Because I am not understanding why you are still resisting a D1 test...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Correct AJ, if they had read Hohum's argument correctly they would see that is what he was saying

[Lamont_Cranston]

"What damage would the village suffer if this was the case and since the risk to the village of using an item increases with each passing day why not try ONE item to see if the "battle of items" is actually taking place?"

*sigh*

Using an item will not tell us if there is a battle of items. Just because ONE item shows up good it doesnt mean that another item will kill the user or have a similar effect. To me it sounds like you want us to get used to the items so that one backfires at the critical moment!

That could happen but if we don't try at least one we will have no way to know if they are for our beenfit at all. I'm willing to take the risk on the first item to gain the potential knowledge of something that could be so necessary to our success.

The part of me that agrees with you is swayed by the above statement.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Could be. If you are scum and know/think that the item is to our benefit than you're opposing its use in the face of a strong town argument would definitely be scummy.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well then change ur name to Amishscott!

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Shadow Knight:

Could you post a list of people that have not voted for the elixir?

If we can at least get the votes settled then we can move forward, right?

[Lamont_Cranston]

[quote="Shadow Knight"]Not really. Just didn't see any reason to get involved in a fight when hohum wasn't even here. We had no reason to think that hohum would agree to do as we wished. I'm ok with me drinking it. My question though, is if you think I'm lurking, why would you want me to drink it?

Elixer Votecount etc.[quote]

I thought you liked it.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think we need a list of those not yet voting for the elixir.

Hohum said he would go with the town majority opinion...

But the system doesn't have its full effect if not everyone votes.

[Lamont_Cranston]

No I am not. Obviously you are making up mind.

[Lamont_Cranston]

UGH voting. I still got my doubts about it since it's too easy to be manipulated by the informed minority.

Unlike Amished I don't think it should go to a person who might be scum or I would find slightly scummy. Because whatever happens if it isn't something obvious we will never get to know its effects. Scum will not share this information with us. Unless the effects are announced by the mod but I highly doubt it unless it's death.

So you and devastation are against using it?

[Lamont_Cranston]

MOD: Please prod Hohum.

Can anyone please come up with a list of who hasn't voted for the elixir yet?

[Lamont_Cranston]

With that many people not voting, I would suggest if you are on the "not voting" list to place a vote.

Thank you.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Omgosh, he drank it.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think I will be doing that analysis, Hohum.

My opinions to follow sometime tonight.

[Lamont_Cranston]

If your name does not appear on my list, I have found your positions consistent & pro-town.

This analysis is

ONLY

based on the elixir.

Pyromaniac

-- Has both volunteered to drink and advocated dumping the liquid entirely. I have found his logic to be confusing to me on other positions and so it doesn't seem suprising that his elixir positions would change as well. Didn't seem to be steering. Neutral read.

Hohum

-- Has advocated giving it to a villager and then changed to give to nobody. Finally consumes and says the whole conversation was useless. Hard to know what to think. I can't imagine scum doing this so he must be town.

Pablo

-- Advocates having fun using the elixir over village safety. Rolefishes for a "vanilla townie" to volunteer. Eventually (very late) switches to "lets try it to test it early" argument. Definitely inconsistent and steering. +scum

Sajin

-- Heavily advocated for random assignment, steering. I find his logic confusing and his position +scum.

Sironi

-- Originally said "definitely someone should drink it" then changed to "nobody should use it." I'm going to call this light +scum

Stephoscope

-- Advocated random assignment heavily and combined "Let's force Lamont". Was attempting to steer on random assignment (at least early on).

The "red" ones are in order of scumminess regarding elixir policy. I did a full list of everyone but left most everyone off to avoid giving out to much info.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Whoops I forgot:

Nyx

-- Very heavily random assignment (steering) then suddenly switches to no use and against voting. He tried very hard to steer that random assignment. His position has not been consistent and I think ultimately anti-town.

I would place him under Sajin in my original list.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I wouldn't mind seeing lamont lynched, but I'd rather see pyro go. Thoughts?

Also: more pyro votes please.

Comments like these are really anti-town. I think its time you got off your high horse and started contributing in a serious way.

Provide some substance or you really should be ignored.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I said THAT COMMENT is anti-town.

[Lamont_Cranston]

No sir I did not.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think its time you got off your high horse and started contributing in a serious way.

Also implies that you believe my behavior to be anti-town.

Yes. Comments like that without substance don't help. You have been sort of "oh well who cares everybody is DUH" alot and that's great but it gets old after awhile.

I'd prefer some serious +town analysis if you don't mind.

[Lamont_Cranston]

How is random assignment steering at all? YOUR the one steering sir.

I am considering that random analysis is a strong anti-town argument because of the chance of hitting a town PR.

I provided my analysis as an opinion.

[Lamont_Cranston]

you said comments, plural, implying that I've been doing anti-town stuff the entire time. You also never really asked me to explain why I'm advocating your lynch. You've got a big guilty sign around your neck.

Look if you're going to make crap statements like that there is nothing to defend. I'd like to see a better pro-town attitude from you.

[Lamont_Cranston]

All I'm really doing is pointing out the contradictions in your posts. If that makes my play anti-town suddenly it's because you've got something to hide and you don't want anyone prying any deeper.

Sorry but "I think Lamont should be lynched any comments" is not pointing out anything. Please provide some substance instead of crapo-attacks thanks.

So far the entire game you've coasted by mostly agreeing with me. If you don't like the spotlight so much, then you should be posting some real case material and analysis instead of cycling through the town lobbing one-liner bombs at people.

<--- Dear goodness, after a post like yours you DARE to say anything like that about ME!?

While we're on the subject of crappy game play: I'd like to see a less stalky posting style from you.

<--- FINALLY a shred of real analysis! Please elaborate on this "stalky" post style so I may respond.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Whoa.

Well that's that, then. Anything else you want to get off your chest before the unknown effects take hold?

Yes. This whole discussion was pointless and distracting.

We should be looking for clues that the people who were largely steering it were also purposefully introducing confusion into the mix.

Ok Hohum. You can quit whining now. All I did was post my analysis as you mentioned I should.

Its not a drive-by "oh lets lynch this person, any comments" post either.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok, obviously a grudge match is brewing...

I think Lamont's just trying to bring up points of us to think about. Is he trying to steer the town? No, probably not. Lamont, I can see you defending your case against hohums attacks, but why did you decide to bite his bait and describe him as anti-town?

I did not say he was anti-town. I said his post about lynching with no substantive reasoning is anti-town. Pro-town is thoughtful analysis that helps the town make progress in finding scum.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Could we use a negative effect to help verify someone?

Anything is possible.

How is voting any less of a chance of hitting a town PR?

Because there are more townies than scum, and an informed vote should be more likely to focus on a non-power role

How is random selection (dice) more steering then a vote?

Its not. It's anti-town though.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Why do you feel the need to pick him apart now, if you feel Pyro is a more important target?

He's at the keyboard, responding, being defensive and acting like a wounded animal in general. Why waste the opportunity?

Pyro is welcome to come in and respond at his leisure

Your attitude is not helping the town. I'm going to need to see some real analysis from you really soon to give you any credit at all. So far all you have done is go V/LA and hold this game up. You come back and say "Oh well, this whole thing is stupid you idiots wasted your time and let's just lynch somebody."

Try to be a little more helpful.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Whoops I forgot:

Nyx

-- Very heavily random assignment (steering) then suddenly switches to no use and against voting. He tried very hard to steer that random assignment. His position has not been consistent and I think ultimately anti-town.

I would place him under Sajin in my original list.

I never advocated NO USE. Please quote me where I did.
Since the decanter came in to play I've said I agreed on using it and it should be randomly decided.

Ok I apologize. I have in my notes "no use" but apparently I drew that from your statement about no voting.

Could you explain why you were against voting?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Pyromaniac

-- Has both volunteered to drink and advocated dumping the liquid entirely. I have found his logic to be confusing to me on other positions and so it doesn't seem suprising that his elixir positions would change as well. Didn't seem to be steering. Neutral read.

As I have already explained I did

not

volunteer. For a while it looked like I was going to be forced to drink it because I was randomly selected, or at least to me it did. I made it clear, or so I thought, that I did not approve of this but, would drink it if I had to.

Ok sorry I forgot AGAIN. I will update my notes now while I have it infront of me.

You only advocated drinking it if you were randomly selected.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Whoops I forgot:

Nyx

-- Very heavily random assignment (steering) then suddenly switches to no use and against voting. He tried very hard to steer that random assignment. His position has not been consistent and I think ultimately anti-town.

I would place him under Sajin in my original list.

I never advocated NO USE. Please quote me where I did.
Since the decanter came in to play I've said I agreed on using it and it should be randomly decided.

Ok I apologize. I have in my notes "no use" but apparently I drew that from your statement about no voting.

Could you explain why you were against voting?

Because I think that during the voting process the informed minority has to much weight in deciding who it's going to be.

Dam, wat an excellent point. I wished you had weighed in much earlier on that.

Thank GOODNESS he drank it already...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Could we use a negative effect to help verify someone?

Anything is possible.

How is voting any less of a chance of hitting a town PR?

Because there are more townies than scum, and an informed vote should be more likely to focus on a non-power role

How is random selection (dice) more steering then a vote?

Its not. It's anti-town though.

1- A verification is valuable even if its a minor negative effect.

2- On an issue like this a vote is just as likely to be manipulated by scum especially on a day 1. How many times, statistically will scum be lynched day 1 with a day start? Exactly.

Excellent point. I stand corrected. I will be pursuing another analysis. So far then, only Pablo would remain red on that list. The dam elixir is too dam confusing and there is no hope of any good analysis there.

[/quote]

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok here's my list in order:

Pablo

-- As previously explained, rolefishing & disregard for town safety.

Nueva Vida

-- Absolute lurk. Posts are in the single digits. No helpful content.

Sironi

-- Inconsistency on elixir policy feels like scummy to me. Push on Naomi might have been opportunistic as well; will have to research.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Oh, BTW

Unvote, Vote: Lamont_Cranston

For the holier than thou attitude, and mostly for the reasons I've been outlining for the last 2 pages.

Well until I see more from you the above post is completely in line with almost everything you've contributed so far.

Ooo a new scum tell, "holier than thou attitude".

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Amished: Your post wall has many errors concerning me. My position on the elixir has directly mirrored yours so your argument there as much implicates you as me.

If I was to respond to the post wall it would be unnecessarily huge.

Hohum's attack on me is crap. He has a really bad playstyle. I understand the other two votes as I mentioned both of them on my elixir analysis; basically revenge voites.

For the record, I have abandoned the elixir analysis as it is too confusing an issue to be usable.

Lynching me D1 is epic village fail here.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I daresay I was less fear-mongering than you ever were; I was giving examples from the games to defend my point rather than... oh, here's a nice quote:

how can you possibly want this item used if you are town??

(This is the original formatting, taken from ISO 86).

This is just proof I wasn't "parroting" anyone. My view is still that the elixir shouldn't be used D2 unless we can prove a positive effect and thus validate Xtoxm's theory (also shared by Tajo & AJ). Our conclusions were the same though, no use for the town.

I have voiced caution and given reasons why I thought the potion would be harmful. As I had done more research, AJ and xtoxm's analogy of vigging N0 is beneficial is something that I have come to agree with as well.

Ditto.

As I never believed it would turn town into mafia like you stated, a death was probably the most harmful outcome that I could come up with.

There are a whole myriad of different potential outcomes that would be worse than an outright death for the town. I just chose my favorite one.

Therefore, even with what I considered to be the worst case scenario, I came to the new viewpoint that a death isn't always a bad thing.

A forced death decided by one person?? Well its a moot point now anyway, Ho has drunk it...

That is where I've stood throughout the course of the game, while you've been much more extreme on both sides of the debate.

True, I've had my own views even though we have agreed each step of the way

I have also found your following of me quite concerning, and that builds off of what hohum has said too: you don't do much other than parrot other people's ideas. That, or misrep their position as you've been corrected on a number of times already. As scum, I've followed townies' opinions much like you have, so nothing you've said still makes me any less suspicious of you.

Sorry, but you have very well pointed out how I haven't parroted you and if you check you will see I LED THE WAY on no usage of the elixir in the face of a strong random assignment push.

Also dismissing an attack on you by attacking the person's playstyle is also scummy.

ORLY? And why isn't the playstyle itself scummy? Did you read his post when he voted me? I have a "holier than thou attitude" -- that is not scum hunting its just crappy play. Just the same I think he's town even though his lack of quality play annoys me.

[Lamont_Cranston]

No. You saying you didn't want it used does NOT mean you aren't parroting anybody. You admit that your conclusion was the same, still holding the same belief as was said earlier in the thread. No, you were not the first to hold the opinion that the elixer should not be used.

I held the same belief in MY OWN way. You proved that.

Don't ditto me. You consistently tried to emotionalize and fear-whore the town into widely voting for hohum if he ended up using it. I brought up examples from the origin of the theme. You, on the other hand, did not.

Excuse me, but I totally switched my views once Xtoxm's theory was made clear to me. Why do you seem so blind to the facts all of a sudden?

I moved onto the view that we should use the item around page 21, and you disagreed with me then. After a while you then agreed with me again. We have not agreed every step of the way, and I find you trying to set me up to be guilty by you associating with me especially troubling.

I'm only pointing out that my views have been consistently pro-town as have been yours. The only difference is I haven't attacked you for them

From my perspective, people with holier than thou attitudes generally have inside knowledge, leading them to think that they're better than everyone. I suggest you defend yourself rather than attack a playstyle that you haven't had that much of a problem with up until now.

Please, even though we both probably agree he's town, you are letting him off the hook way to easily. There is no substance to his case on me, its just a blind shot in the dark; a gut vote if you will.

Your argument is so epic fail.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Your arguments have gone beyond the pale here. I have pointed out that my views have been consistently pro-town.

There are plenty of players with inconsistent and anti-town views -- your scum hunting should be focused there.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Oh, like YOUR scumhunting? Let's see who you've all implicated or accused of being scum: just Pablo. Hell, you haven't even pushed that at all nor questioned him further. You haven't even looked at him again really

Fail. I posted him tops on my list twice in red.

Your accusations towards SK have been bogus (cause you've really only attacked him for *mentioning* NLynch D1)

He does not read scum to me, nor is he on my list.

Specific assignment from any individual or small group of individuals is terribly scummy as well.

Pardon me but who exactly is guilty of this? Nobody. That was an advance warning against such a thing, fail.

I think Sironi is the best candidate and my vote is for him to get the elixir.

This was an elixir vote. There was no need for me to expand on the reasoning there. Scum would enjoy that info. Please drop it.

One more thing: I love how in ISO 162 you view steering to be scummy, but you've admitted to try to steer the town early on and have tried to steer the town into not using the elixer.

I admit I was steering. I did it for pro-town reasons however, as did you.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok I thought it was kind of silly for you to ask but I use it or not use it freely.

What are you trying to get me to say about it?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lamont, the third time I have to ask you about the devil sign (and props to Amished for the original catch) will come along with a vote. I hardly think asking about your use of a devil sign is anti-town rolefishing.

Btw, I think you got that strange idea from Amish Ed. Have you noticed his logic has sudenly become very poor all of a sudden?

I think its because of you.

Remember your post early on when you said my posting style needed to be verified? My read on him is so solid so far, for him to be so illogical all of a sudden can only mean he is trying to prove my alignment by a barrage of illogical attacks.

In other words he has determined that he agrees with your argument.

All I can suggest to the both of you to view the consistency of my views and realize your scum hunting needs to be elsewhere.

But Amish Ed really needs to stop reaching so hard here...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Steph until you give me a reason why I should do such a silly think you can put your vote wherever you want. That's a silly reason to vote anyone and I won't be held responsible for it.

[Lamont_Cranston]

LOL that is the most silly crapologic thing I have ever heard.

Go pound sand with your silly childish argument.

[Lamont_Cranston]

On my lynch candidates I see Sironi just like Naomi, all over the map on the elixir issue. Taking every position just to seem consistent with what is going on at the time.

Only Sironi is MORE guilty because Naomi did it under voting pressure whereas Sironi had no such pressure.

But either way, I hold both of them as inexperienced town, so that leaves Pablo or Nueva.

I will support a lynch on either of them today.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Amish Ed are you sure YOU didn't drink the elixir my vote is on PABLO

[Lamont_Cranston]

Oh ya ur definitely steering now and its quite obvious. Please don't try to tell me your arguments are logical. I held the same positions as you, Xtox, AJ & Tajo and obviously for my own reasons.

There are plenty of people that have crapologic exlixir arguments but instead you grasp at straws for me with posts that are riddled with inaccuracies and strange unfounded superstitions.

Explain how logic has suddenly gone out the window for you because eventually you will have to anyway; better to do it now before you irreparably harm the village.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well, I dunno I respect your strength as a player and I thought it would go all the way through to lynch.

Anyway your whole argument is based on how somehow I am parroting people which is absurd. Sure I changed my point of view for a better argument in Xtoxm but so did you. I LED THE WAY on opposing its use, I didn't parrot anyone.

Sure I threw out a ton of FoS mainly because I already had my vote locked in. Usually I got satisfactory answers to them.

I have evaluated every one of the players in this game. I have everything from experienced to newb reads, very logical and consistent to illogical crapologic.

There are plenty of people you could and should be harping on. My views have been consistent and pro-town.

You are reaching so far you are putting your arms out of joint.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Dam, that sucks.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lamont was advocating its use before? Well...

Care to explain what convinced you to change your mind?

The reason I didn't answer this earlier, is that it was plain from my many posts about it.

Simply, Xtoxm's theory (shared by Tajo & AJ) that there could be a battle of the items made sense because if the day items were meant to be good and help the town and the night items were made to help the mafi, then the damage to the town would be very harmful if we ignored the day items. Now, the only way to prove that theory is to test the D1 item.

Devastation, we had a long convo about this -- why would you even need to ask that question??

[Lamont_Cranston]

Even though the item HAS hurt the town, it was necessary to prove your theory right or wrong. So I hold your theory as pro-town Xtoxm.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Take Shell

[Lamont_Cranston]

Btw, welcome Zwet. There has been plenty of excitement preceding your arrival. I don't see how you will be able to top it.

[Lamont_Cranston]

On a side note, I don't like the BW choices for today. I hold them both as town. I recommend changing them.