Princess Bride Mafia - Game Over

[massive]

Random vote:mlaker

Now this really takes the cake ... er. Didn't Meme just say he was on vacation for a week? And then with this:

Ummm, guys, Who's buttercup?

I think the jig is up.

[massive]

I suppose that massive's actions (at least, as you describe them),

are

somewhat suspicious [...]

Did I miss something disingenuous? All this talk about my behavior being suspicious and I can't find any mention of it. I realize that pages are missing, so can someone fill me in?

[...] "Florin townsperson" isn't the actual name of the role...

Looks like Someone's lack of knowledge is taking it's toll. I'll wait to hear more but it looks like scum.

FOS Someone

[massive]

But I'm still curious as to massive's acting.

Not acting, but at least the game I am impacting.

Especially since his defense was, it seems, to not even read the thread thoroughly.

I'll go into a little more detail, merrily. Someone's claim was that I was bringing up his non-knowledge of the game (which Polarboy pointed out first, not me) and his voting for an absentee as "evidence" that I started the bandwagon without actually voting for him. I can't SEE the bandwagon to see if anyone even referred to what I said. That's the only "suspicious" thing I've done according to Someone. I missed the entire day that's missing so I have nothing to defend against.

[massive]

Just a little frustrated at massive's "cover-up"

And it's got me as mad as a scalded pup. I'm not trying to "cover up" anything, so you can imagine how your continued aggression is making me feel.

The post where Someone re-iterates his suspicions of me is still there. At that point, it was only himself and CRiX voting for me, and the post where he actually voted for me IS missing. When I posted initially, I had just scanned over the thread and when I got to the point where (mathcam I believe) stated that I was suspicious, I brushed past jadesmar's questions about my first post and assumed that whatever was causing people to think I was suspicious was lost in the lost pages. I don't think there's anything suspicious about my first post, and for all I know, Someone is the one who brought that idea up in the first place. (Again, that's all lost to me.)

I will continue to maintain that I have no need for defense. Dourgrim is voting for me because I used the word 'merrily,' for crying out loud.

And I'll also go out on a limb here and say that Someone's not the only one with no Princess Bride knowledge.

[massive]

And why are you only responding to me?

Mainly because your posts are the most that I see.

Jadesmar did not say that my post was suspicious ... only puzzling. Which I will contend that it might be. Jadesmar did not accuse me of starting a bandwagon without actually voting. Jadesmar is not voting for me. So why would I count Jadesmar's post as being even remotely accusatory? So he didn't get my point. Of course I'm going to brush it off, because it's unimportant to the argument that anyone has put forth for finding me suspicious.

CRiX is voting for me randomly. Someone is voting for me because I supposedly started this giant bandwagon against him, without voting, in an inexplicable manner that no one understood. Dourgrim thinks I'm not defending myself against my un-understandable early posts. Fletcher thought the un-understandable post was a joke initially, but then decided that the defense of my poor thread-reading was worthy of his vote, even though he didn't know if I'd role-claimed or not himself.

So of course I'm defending myself against you. You're the one who's latched onto the idea that I'm misleading the public by mis-reading or half-assed-ly reading the thread. You're the only one that I can make any defense against. *shrug* You're also the one quoting me out of context:

There. That is the first time someone questioned your post. It is still there. Read my posts:

Actually, go back to the first page. You will see jadesmar even questioned that immediately after your post. Still no response on that.

...And now you after I had posted that...

I don't think there's anything suspicious about my first post, and for all I know, Someone is the one who brought that idea up in the first place. (Again, that's all lost to me.)

It's still lost on you, eh? This is just silly.

What I am referring to here is the notion that I am suspicious because my post is trying to start a bandwagon on Someone without voting on him. Jadesmar's post has nothing to do with this. I DON'T KNOW WHO BROUGHT THIS IDEA UP. Redirecting my defense to the confused looks of my first post is below the belt.

If you only are voting for me because I half-read the thread, then there's nothing I can do but point you to targets for your voting logic for days two and three. If you are voting for me because you think I am suspicious because I was trying to start a bandwagon on Someone, then please tell me who brought the idea up initially, because it sure seems like Someone did himself.

My PM does not say I am from Florin.

[massive]

Sorry, I got suspiciously quiet when I had two people unvote me to make me quit whining. Heaven forbid I ruin the game for others. And jadesmar - my first post (the one that's been so heavily critiqued with your response) made reference to the fact that mlaker was on vacation (MeMe mentioned it on the first page).

[massive]

Finally, a bandwagon I can get behind.

vote Mole

[massive]

Roles Left:

Westley
Inigo Montoya
Fezzik
Vizzini
Prince Humperdinck
Count Tyrone Rugen
The Albino
Yellin
King Lotharon
Queen Bella
The Impressive Clergyman (or Archdean)
The Ancient Booer
ROUS ('s)

There HAS to be at least one ROUS ("died of a festering leg wound" couldn't be anything else), but could there be two, as a secondary mini-mafia group?

Plus we have three confirmed generic townies in our troupe. That's 16, which is what we have left. I see my role on that list. If that list is right, how many Mafia are we dealing with? I know Humperdinck, Rugen, and the ROUS (I'm assuming one, seems ideal for a SK role) are all evil, but I'm not familiar with the lesser roles. How realistic is it, too, to have the King and Queen and the other minor roles? We have generic townies, so that would say to me that there might also be generic Mafia (Werebear alluded to Rugen and 'his cronies') ... I think I'm talking in circles.

[massive]

On face value, I should be a regular cop.

DP's last revelation has put me over the top. Having been the victim of DP's LAST Lepton gambit (in "Still Alive?" mini), I'm now getting exactly the same feeling I had there. And I don't believe the people outside the story are in the game.

vote DP

[massive]

If we string him up, at least we will get more info about my sanity.

And if he's town, we're on the road to tragedy. In my opinion, it's the cop's responsibility to determine his sanity before launching an attack on a suspected criminal. DP has now led two attacks on two different people, without confirming his sanity, and is now attempting to use the lynching to "get more info" for his own role? This is preposterous. I might be able to wave my fingers and have some suspension of disbelief if it was a new player doing this, but DP is an experienced player who should know that he's more useful in a big game if he keeps his mouth shut a couple of days to determine if he's actually helpful to the town.

A one-for-one trade is bad for the Mafia. I think DP believes he can talk his way out of it being a one-for-one trade. If we lynch mlaker and he's pro-town, I say we MUST lynch DP no matter what he says.

It doesn't matter how the character appeared in the movie mafia-wise. You can't be led down the path that lets you put movie logic in front of good mafia sense.

[massive]

Come on, people! Wake up!

Open the bottle and fill my cup!

Well, I have an interesting change of mind. I got to see the movie last night (it was on the Love Stories digital cable channel of all things) so everything is nicely fresh in my mind. Hooray for me!

Unfortunately, I can kinda see how the Grandfather might be a little unreliable. He starts over at least once, reads a section he's already read ... it's not until the boy gets interested that he really starts to have focus. I'm wondering if the role has some funniness to it in the first few days, or has some tie-in with the boy, before it becomes a trustworthy investigative role.

I mean, if we're going to believe that Grandpa could be in the game, it makes a little sense to me. So

unvote DP

for now.

As for Mafia roles, I think we have to assume Humperdinck, the six-fingered guy who's name escapes me now, the Albino, and Vezzini are Mafia. The ROUS is probably the serial killer. That's where I'd put the roles if I were making this game. I didn't really see another role that was down-and-out evil. I'd also say the King and Queen wouldn't make the cut if I were making roles based on the movie, since they're in the movie for all of two minutes.

[massive]

Also, when it comes to mafia, what about Humperdincks' guards?

I don't think generic Mafia is in the cards. I mean, it's possible, but when I think about Mafia in general, I think about a Godfather sending out his henchmen to do the dirty work. It pretty much mimicks Humperdinck's sending of Rugen (finally looked it up), the Albino, and Vezzini to do his killing. There's no one else really featured prominently in the movie that acts in this sort of role. If Yellin is in this game, he's the last one, even though he doesn't do any killing and is really a big chicken. I guess that would make 5 which is a nice round number for Mafia ...

But, that doesn't really help us determine who's Mafia, or why the Clergyman could protect himself from one death ...

[massive]

To people who are not voting for anyone presently, please present your position.

All right, here it is, my current prognostication. I'm indifferent to Dourgrim and mlaker at the time, and so putting my vote randomly on either of those two doesn't really help. Dourgrim is Dourgrim and mlaker, while over the top, doesn't scream scum to me.

The only person I'm REALLY suspicious of is jadesmar, who seemed to take the quickest reason possible to vote Dourgrim back on page 13, but has since unvoted. (Granted, the posts are a day and a half apart, so maybe "the quickest" was a poor choice of words.) It was almost as if jadesmar stayed low after DP's role claim (only a couple of throw-away posts on page 10), and then popped up once that blew over to vote for Dourgrim as soon as Dourgrim used his vote for emphatic measure.

That may just be my opinion though. jadesmar kinda had me piqued a little asking for a townie clue from mole towards the end of day one, but I washed over it since that could be an honest mistake. Looking back though, it stuck out a little as well.

vote jadesmar

[massive]

No way... he's full of it.

I agree, his role claim is as stinky as a halibut. It doesn't match with the movie at all. And with regular townspeople, using the Old Booer as a real role means that someone important would have had to be lost.

unvote jadesmar
vote mlaker

[massive]

jadesmar: What I meant was, with so few possible slots left for non-"normal"-townies in this game, it seems weird that the Old Booer would get a slot. I think I can count about 14 roles I'd put in the game BEFORE the Old Booer, and I think it's more likely that our illustrious moderator would have put regular townies in than put in roles where the role was REALLY stretching just to be included. Does that make better sense?

About Leonidas: I'm trying to think if there were any Mafia roles that might have been able to slip out of a lynching (the Mafia roles we determined earlier) ... I wish I had seen the movie recently.

Oh wait, it was just last week. Geez for my short-term memory.

[massive]

I'll withhold voting anyone until we hear from DP.

Well, he's certainly our best lead at this apogee. But mathcam, I'm curious why you said this:

DP's aliveness gives slight credence to the theory that he's either crazy or mafia, though.

An innocent result today means that we go after Leonidas with gusto. I just can't think of any reason Grandpa would be paranoid, either.

About Someone: As I recall he's a confirmed Florin townie, isn't he?

[massive]

I have found an innocent. Which confirms I'm sane

Sorry for blasting you earlier in the game. I think you can understand where the distrust was coming from. If you hadn't died night one in Cartoon Network, I was all up in a "random vote DP tee hee" mode.

there's something seriously wrong there.

I agree, Someone's reactions give me an itch in the derriere. But I just saw the movie, and I can't come up with what the name of a generic Florin townie would be that would match the hints given ... there is always the possibility that

if Meme expected this sort of thing and put a twist to make it less reliable

but I think that the possibility is less and less viable. I wouldn't want anyone to waste an investigation on him ... we can go after him later if we need to.

Oh, and

vote Leonidas

of course.

[massive]

We're sitting pretty, at least for now

Yup, now give me another scum to lynch, DP, before I have a cow.

[massive]

I guess my suspicions are leaning a little toward Dourgrim

and your post certainly has me looking a little harder at him. His demeanor towards Someone was the big reason, since when you say

It seems like only the mafia would know there was another doc around ... because they tried to submit a night kill but it didn't go through.

Well, that's what it said to me, but I'm not as experienced as you. But you give good points about WHY to suspect Dourgrim, and since the last two days have been so easy thanks to DP, there's little suspiciousness to go around.

vote Dourgrim

[massive]

I think that at this stage (13 left) it's wise to list our innocents.

I agree, I think that we're to where it'll make a difference. I was looking at the numbers earlier today, and it's getting tight. We already know that there are three generic townies, which means depending on the number of Mafia left, there are either six (most likely I think) or seven pro-town named roles left. If we can work through three or four of them, we narrow our lynch selection candidates down quite seriously.

Well, hrm, hang on. I'm not so much concerned as to how easy we're going to make it for the Mafia, I'm concerned about making it easy for the ROUS now. If we make a list of who is innocent, the ROUS starts having easy pickin's for either Mafia OR townie ... that's my only concern right now though.

[massive]

I noticed that, but I guess I assumed we got all the mafia.

Here, let me help get those false conclusions offa ya. Vizzini HAS to be in the game, as well as he HAS to be Mafia. He's such a crucial part of the movie. I'd also bet there's at least a fourth Mafia, be it the Albino or Yellin (my bet would be the Albino). We may have made a dent, but it's hardly over.

Sugar/DP: I'm assuming that the "innocents" that you have listed do not include the people we've confirmed are Florin regular townspeople?

Of the six or seven named innocents left, I can name at least five. I believe it's going to be hard for scum to role claim effectively. However, I want to put this out there for completeness's sake ... using the "townie clues" as provided by the first three generic townies, I believe I know what the "generic townie phrase" is, and could probably roleclaim against it ... so I'm not trusting any more generic townies besides the three we have already.

[massive]

I'd say Yellin, since the Albino wasn't really a bad guy, per say.

What makes you think this way? All Yellin does is roll over without a fight. At least the Albino tortures someone. Hehe, maybe THAT'S why there was no kill last night? Because the Albino only tortures? That's a funny thought at least, but hardly practical.

Hrm. I will

vote mathcam

. I have been following his arguments quite blindly without thinking, which means he's likely Mafia given my recent gameplay.

[massive]

Well, since you put your defense so succinctly,

unvote mathcam

. Seriously though, I have a bad habit of blindly believing Mafia recently. It's like a rash or something.

The Albino does torture Westley in the first torture scene, under the direction of ... one of the other bad guys. I can see the scene but not if the guy has six fingers.

Beyond Vezzini and the two we've strung up, I can't think of anyone who's blatantly evil. I think everyone else is in this sort of "evil but lazy" category we've been discussing. What other roles are you thinking of, mathcam, that are "easily construed as evil"?

(Well, the mom DOES leave her son alone with Grandpa ... )

[massive]

We could have generic Humperdinck guards and the like.

It's a possibility, one that has me scratching my Van Dyke. (Yes, I have a weird beard type.) I'm not saying that this isn't possible - what I'm saying is that IF these roles (Yellin / Albino) are in the game, it's hardly likely that someone would claim them and say they would be pro-town. I'm looking at it more from a roleclaiming standpoint now ... if we collect the info from DP and Sugar, and start with whoever's left, what roles can they claim that might be disputable? I'm just saying that if they were to claim Yellin or the Albino, I would hard-pressed to say those were pro-town roles.

(I still maintain that Vizzini HAS to be in the game.)

I also think it's fair to say that the Old Booer and the Clergyman aren't in the game. If they were in the game and pro-town, they would have come out to blast the Mafia; if they were in the game and Mafia, why would other Mafia members claim their roles? So we can safely cross those names off of our "List of Potential Role Claims Left".

[massive]

Well, they MIGHT be in the game and they MIGHT be pro-town, but I'm still gonna vote for 'em.

[massive]

Well, you know, cam, SOMEONE had to keep bumping the thread up to the top. But I concur ... I think between who we KNOW is innocent and who we KNOW has to be in the game, we can make it VERY hard for the remaining scum.

[massive]

Well, Sugar and DP both have innocent people, so I think if we can just confirm them innocent, we can still use them to counteract any fake role claims from the others. We find out who's innocent and start on the rest, I guess.

PS: Sugar, you make me laugh.

[massive]

I'm Fezzik.

Who cleared Dourgrim?

[massive]

Well, that certainly makes it harder. I wonder if we can trust any of that info at all? Who received the note about DP's innocence, I wonder? That's the only one that wasn't revealed before rite's roleclaim, and the only one that can prove it either way.

And no, Dourgrim hasn't been cleared by anyone as of yet. Sugar's cleared in my mind because of the townsperson thing. DP busted two Mafia. That puts the list I'd like to hear more from at:

Werebear
Norinel
mikehart
Dourgrim

but I'm a little worried about duping role claims now ... what if Rite sent out that as disinformation and some of those people AREN'T innocent? I still want to maintain my claim that Vizzini HAS to be Mafia.

Wait.

Sugar got CRiX, Dourgrim got CRiX and jadesmar, Fishbulb got mathcam. According to rite's roleclaim, he didn't send the info about CRiX to Dourgrim. So what's the real story?

Man I'm close to voting for rite.

Major FOS with intent to vote: rite

[massive]

Dourgrim had to have received the info about jadesmar, if you believe rite, because the other two people on the "random distribution" list are Fishbulb and DP, and they both say they didn't get it.

Neither mathcam nor Dourgrim received the Day One info (mathcam, I think, would have said something when he said DP wasn't cleared "per se"), so that means that mole is the only possible recipient.

Rite: I'm not claiming you're not sending the information. I'm claiming that the information you're sending has some hiccups and might not be completely trustworthy.

And I'm actually MORE suspicious of Dourgrim since he claimed to have received info on two people, both of whom were exonerated by proven townies RIGHT before his post, without ever previously mentioning that he had extra info himself.

[massive]

Well. I guess no one got the info that DP was innocent, rite. Any ideas how that might have happened? I guess it's up to whether you believe rite or you believe Dourgrim, since mathcam and mole are both confirmed townies and didn't receive the info.

Personally, I don't think I believe either one.

[massive]

Yeah, unfortunately I think I agree. We've gotten all the info we're going to get from rite ... there's no way to proceed now but force Dourgrim to mess up.

vote Dourgrim

[massive]

I went back and re-read Dourgrim's posts during the day mlaker was lynched. It doesn't seem like he has extra knowledge that mlaker is scum at the beginning of the day; in fact, he steamrolls on Someone for a good long while until the tide starts to turn on himself and mlaker gets in over his head. I could see his claim working if he was #1 or #2 to vote for mlaker ... but at the time he votes, he's #6. *shrug* Seems inconsistent with what he's claiming.

(Also, if he's claiming a semi-investigative town role, why isn't he divulging everything in the interest of just out-and-out winning the game?)

[massive]

All I'm saying, Dour, is that to say you put yourself on the line to lynch mlaker is a little overboard. You put yourself in harm's way during the debate with Someone, not while we were lynching mlaker. By the time the tide had shifted to lynching mlaker, I think you were probably out of harm's way.

And requesting DP to investigate you also seems kinda irrelevant, since I think we all believe his time is limited. But I agree that we're getting all we're gonna get from Dourgrim at this time, so I'll

unvote Dourgrim

for now.

I agree with Sugar that the only reason Fishbulb got removed is because rite cleared him. Jadesmar and mathcam were cleared by DP as well - that's why you aren't in that category, Fishbulb. I'd definitely like to hear more from Fishbulb and will vote that way if necessary to prod him.

[massive]

Yeah. I think I'm really trying to justify myself voting for rite here in a few minutes. *laugh* I just can't wrap my brain around Vizzini NOT being Mafia.

[massive]

Think about it this way: I'm Mafia. I have the ability to send out "investigations" to other players. Since I know who is innocent already, it's easy for me to spread disinformation (along with some "real", confirmable information) to not only make myself seem innocent under the gun, but also to possibly protect one of my scummy buddies (as a "confirmed" innocent). The only caveat here is if I send info to someone that the SK is innocent ... but it's not like the SK is going to come out and say, "Ha-HA! I'm actually NOT innocent!"

Right now there are 13 of us left. Is that right?

Dourgrim (?)

Dragon Phoenix (Grandpa)

Fishbulb 2 replaces CRiX (?)

jadesmar (? but innocent via DP)
massive (Fezzik)
mathcam (? but innocent via DP)
mikehart (generic Florin townie)
mole (generic Florin townie)
Norinel replaces Darkblade (Westley)

rite (Vizzini)

Someone (generic Florin townie)
Sugar (generic Florin townie)

Werebear (?)

I've italicized who could still be scummy. With Werebear and Dourgrim refusing to roleclaim for whatever reason, you're the only unknown that is willing to talk at this point. There are conceivably two Mafia and an ROUS left, so if we can eliminate you from our pool of scum, we can take out the rest.

[massive]

Dourgrim: I think I understand now. Although I think I disagree with DP - you don't look so good, and you don't smell so good either.

Fishbulb: Something seems unlikely with you, seeing as how the King had literally no power in the movie. In fact, I think the only reference to him "doing" something is that he fired Miracle Max, but that was outside the scope of the movie.

vote Werebear

seems to be the next option. The others will come out in the wash.

[massive]

Well, we can double-check the townies real quick with some simple math questions if you want (as I said, I think I know what the townie name is) ... just use the alphabetic number for val() (val(a)=1, val(b)=2, etc) ...

Sugar: What is the value of val(last letter) - val(second letter)?

Someone: What is the value of val(fourth letter) + val(fifth letter)?

mole: What is the value of val(first letter) * val(second to last letter)?

mikehart: What is the value of val(sixth letter) - val(third from last letter)?

*shrug* If they can answer those to each other's (and our) satisfaction, I'm content to let the whole bunch off.

As for DP: He comes out as investigator, pings two Mafia in a row, and then we have no night kills when he's the only logical protection choice? The Mafia gave up on two night kills if they did, which wouldn't be sound, and considering the Mafia would have to be DP and rite (since rite got him as "innocent" on night one), I can't believe that would be something they would try. I guess we'll see who dies tonight. If you believe this is a possibility, it makes more sense to lynch rite who at least has already admitted to a scummy character.

I'm still trying to figure out what happened to rite's night-one "investigation." Mole has said outright that he didn't get it; Dourgrim made reference to his other received "results" but not night one. Mathcam I assumed didn't get it (I figured he would have said something once he was confirmed townie) but he didn't say specifically. Cam?

[massive]

Nah, I know, and I may not even know what it is, given that mikehart's answer is WAY off.

[massive]

Dourgrim: mikehart didn't receive an instant vote from me because I don't actually have the role name myself - I'm going solely on my mad puzzle-solving skillz to say that I THINK I know what the role name is. Mole's answer matches my believed answer. I think it might be best to go back and look at who proved whom was townie once the answers are in. Right now I think it went something like: Sugar proved Someone, Someone and mole proved each other, and the Sugar proved mikehart ... so technically no one's proved Sugar and she's the lynchpin for mikehart. *shrug*

Right now I'm ready to hop to rite since no one's claimed his night one investigation.

[massive]

OK, I have a serious question about Dourgrim again. I keep going back and looking at his posts, and I keep getting new questions. I've taken what he's written over the last few pages at face value and I think he's dropped a couple of hints about his role ... but his information just doesn't line up.

Dour: If you knew mlaker was guilty on day two, as you claimed (I think you said "How did I know who to go after?"), why didn't you use your information to solidify DP's innocence AND sanity? You've already said that you're a limited investigator ... and if I have read you right, you haven't had any investigations since then ... why wouldn't you just come out, say that mlaker was definitely scum, and skip the Someone nonsense altogether?

I guess I just can't reconcile what I *think* is your role with your actions.

[massive]

Well, I thought I had gotten all your "hints" about your role, since you were laying them pretty clearly, but I also would have thought that you would have felt no need to continue this need for secrecy since you haven't made any further investigations since night two, and we lynched the only person you found scummy. Makes ZERO sense.

unvote Werebear
vote Dourgrim

I don't think you're who you've been hinting at. AT ALL.

[massive]

Dour: I'm sorry, but I can't see how you're acting in the best interest of the town. If we move on to someone else and you're scum, we could end up with our investigator dead and two completely untrustworthy "investigative" sources (yourself and rite) as the only people to declare your innocence. You'll have to excuse me for not liking the odds in this case. I'm sorry that you think I'm being dense, but I'm actually trying to win this game, and you aren't exactly being helpful.

About your investigations: You claimed to have innocent results on two people, CRiX/Fishbulb and jadesmar, and said that only CRiX/Fishbulb was actually your doing. You since have also claimed that you had a guilty result on mlaker. If you've made any further investigations, then you haven't revealed the results, and from what I interpreted of your role, it made sense that you didn't make any further investigations. I'm not putting words in your mouth. You aren't saying anything except "I refuse to roleclaim" so you've left us no choice but to interpret you as best we can.

You've gotten the point of your hinted role across just fine ... heck, I'd even go so far as to roleclaim for you if I thought it would help ... but you can't say that your actions are lining up with who you are supposed to be.

Gah. There's too much going on. Something is slipping through the cracks.

I checked out the townies btw, Sugar should come down as OK since she was ready to lynch Someone for messing up the name in the first place. Still wondering if anyone will confirm that mikehart's math is good.

In any case, I imagine it would be good to hear what Werebear has to say over the weekend. Sorry to flipflop guys.

unvote Dourgrim
vote Wearbear

That's more than enough to lynch him come deadline. Let the bear speak.

[massive]

I'll concur that mikehart's answer was way off

*cough!*

though (like Talitha) I can guess why [...]

Looking at the posts with a finger in his eye? Random result rolled on a die? Performing calculations while he was high? His ex-girlfriend made him cry?

(OK, I made up the last one.)

I have no possible way to explain and I missed all day yesterday so I gotta go back and re-read. Talitha, give us your innocent (the one you investigated) so we can add it to the stack.

Which one of you is Montoya and DIDN'T see Dourgrim hinting at being Montoya for an entire frickin' day!? Yeesh. "I have a limited investigative ability that stopped when I found out mlaker (Rugen hint hint) was a bad guy" I mean come on.

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe our remaining scum CAN'T kill. And since Vizzini didn't do such a good job at killing in the movie, I'm also ready to vote rite.

[massive]

rite: If you're Mafia, then the only "result" you didn't already know was that Dourgrim was the ROUS, although it sure became obvious once we narrowed down the choices, and you already knew who was Mafia. It also probably became clear he was lying about receiving the night-one info about DP being innocent, so of course he's got to be the ROUS to you (again, if you're Mafia). I don't count your results as being proof that you're pro-town. Let's not forget the possibility that you may not be able to prevent yourself from dispersing that info ... that you get role info, possibly, and then give innocent/guilty out to townies.

But, let's go on the supposition that you're pro-town. Of the remaining players, between you and DP/Talitha, you've cleared: jadesmar, mathcam, mikehart, mole, Talitha, and Fishbulb2. That leaves rite, myself, Norinel, Someone, and Sugar. If you believe that mole and mikehart and both townies as they say, then you have to believe that Sugar and Someone are also townies via the Townie Proof Act, which leaves you, me, and Norinel as the possible remaining scum. We're assuming you're a good guy for this, which means either myself (Fezzik) or Norinel (Westley) have to be lying. Which of us would you like to lynch, rite?

I figure I got about a 50% shot it's me, so in the interest of self-preservation

vote rite

[massive]

Please, no "anxious for night time, he's scum" retorts.

If rite's innocent, we can decide about his sanity and work from there tomorrow.

The real question is: If rite's not the last Mafia, THEN where do we go? I think I've presented a pretty sound argument for who's left if rite is innocent, which I can't fathom. But in the interest of full disclosure and all that:

Code: Select all

rite          DP/Talitha 

DP/Talitha    Leonidas 
CRiX/fishbulb mlaker 
jadesmar      mathcam 
mathcam       jadesmar 
Dourgrim      Dourgrim 
mole          mikehart 

If rite is Mafia and we don't win immediately, then we have to assume that any of rite's "investigations" could be falsified. I think we can remove Talitha and the Townie Brigade from suspicion, but Fishbulb joins the side of myself and Norinel as "people who haven't been confirmed by DP/Talitha." I'd suggest investigating one of those people.

[...] we're not really in a rush, are we?

We've had all the discussion we can, unfortunately. It's definitely time to move on.

And frankly, I think we have some room for error

Mathcam's right - no point in terror. DP's initial investigations and the stumbling night activity of the Mafia and ROUS over the past few days has left us in a peachy situation. To be a bit passe: Let's go town!

[massive]

The other problem is, if we lynch no one tonight, we're relying not only on rite's investigations being truthful, but on the Mafia being unable to kill (or still having some way to protect you tonight) ... I think that's an unnecessary risk seeing as how you're already saying you'd investigate rite. I personally don't see any better options to lynch today. You want to lynch myself or Norinel, people who claimed obvious pro-town roles that should be in the game and have been in-so-far unrepudiated? That seems against practical Mafia logic.

I concur that the Godfather was likely Humperdinck, and we know he didn't show up as innocent. Which is in line with the movie. I still contend that: knowing who has been claimed, and having an idea who the two unclaimed people must be, that Vizzini is the only likely Mafia candidate left.

[massive]

Gah there's a SECOND ROUS!

Well that's sucky. Explains why we're still playing though ... now that we've lynched off the evil humans, we've just got the rat left. Talitha ... tell us what you found!

[massive]

Massive, was that

your

fist?! Explain!

Certainly possible, I was the most vocal against him in this game.

If we're considering that the ROUS "bite" might have been a recruit rather than a kill attempt gone wrong, we (unfortunately) need to include Talitha in our suspect list. I also agree with Fishypuss that a Mafia member with two votes is a little overpowered, so he's clear in my mind. However, let's hope that that doesn't mean BOTH Talitha and Someone are ROUS'es.

Someone got bit N4. DP/Talitha got bit N5. I need to go back and read if DP's "that smelled like town" post came AFTER he would have been bit, or before. Talitha DID fail to remember to investigate rite N6. The kills picked back up N7.

I'm willing to lynch Someone to prove this theory. Discussion?

[massive]

I really wish, now, that I knew what jadesmar's role did. It would help explain what exactly happened on N6 with no kill happening. The immediate thing that comes to mind is that maybe it's a time-delay conversion? Possibly Someone got bit N4 and became a ROUS to kill N7, which would mean that Talitha becomes an ROUS tonight?

I really am stabbing in the dark here. I have no idea. Obviously if there are two ROUS'es and they can recruit and have the person join THAT NIGHT, this game is lost to us because we only have one lynch and they can eventually outnumber us, so I don't think that's the case. Maybe only Dourgrim could bite-recruit?

Or maybe there's just always been more than one ROUS [...]

I think I'm leaning this way less and less. Although, ROUS'es don't LOOK like they were human at one point in time though. Who's left unaccounted for if we assume that Dourgrim wouldn't attack the other ROUS? Myself and Sugar?

Talitha: I'm sure, if we have a doctor left, that you were protected. That MIGHT explain why you were bit and not killed, but NOT why Someone was bit and not killed (since you gotta figure that that doctor was also protecting you on N4 when Someone was bit). Plus Dourgrim got lynched D5, but the info that you had been bitten on N5 didn't come up until N6.

[massive]

The immediate thing that comes to mind is that maybe it's a time-delay conversion?

Why, yes, massive, I agree with your possible conclusion! You seem like a smart lad (and handsome as well, I might add), and so far what you've said makes one-hundred-percent sense!

... Actually I don't think this is the case. I definitely think that Dourgrim could have recruited on Night 5 since it was almost guaranteed that he was going to get lynched ANYWAYS on Day 5. Allowing Talitha to "out" him at that point was not only going along with what was going to happen regardless (due to rite investigating him also), but also re-confirmed her as a "townie" in all our eyes. Dourgrim would have known he wouldn't be able to convert BOTH of the investigators, so he would have picked Talitha/DP over the already-suspicious-and-lynchable rite. The ROUSes could have taken Night 6 off to allow us all to move towards the "rite as Mafia spy" theory and stay off the radar.

Just my opinion of course. But I agree with myself.

Again, the discrepancies, and then I'm voting for Someone. One: Talitha would have been protected on Night 5 when she was bit, but Someone would NOT have been protected on Night 4, so we can't just assume that they "just survived." Two: If the bites were "protected attacks," then why wasn't there either a bite or a kill Night 6?

vote Someone

I think I'm logicked out.

[massive]

It only counts as double-posting, I swear ...

Firstly, I'm tending to believe all the claimed townies, even Mikehart. Mikehart, I suggest you check your counting/spelling and try again, cos I think you may have made a simple mistake. (I can see where you made the mistake.)

The potential answer to my question is making my boots quake. Talitha: Where exactly were you able to see where mikehart made the mistake in his townie math? (This was Day 4 btw.) And then why did you investigate mikehart on Night 6?

[massive]

Hold on a minute. Take a look and you'll see that I fingered Dourgrim as scum

before

rite had come out and said who he investigated. I was actually quite surprised that rite investigated the same person as me, after I had made my suspicions explicit in the twilight previous.

I believe, however, that you and Dourgrim are smart enough to fool the rest of us. One of Dourgrim's big pushes to survive the day before (the day we lynched Werebear) was: You have two investigators, let them investigate me, and if I come back guilty, I'll vote for myself. He knew in advance that probably BOTH investigators would check him ... and if you came back with "innocent", rite came back with "guilty", and we ended up lynching rite ... we'd find out that rite was pro-town and lynch Dourgrim AND you in quick order. So the logical choice is to give in to fate and "protect the pack". I think it's a pretty common Mafia thought process, town or mafia, that if you die but your team wins because you died, you still win.

And as for townie math: What you're telling me is that not only can two of the townies not count (the whole prime number debaucle from earlier), but THREE of the townies can't count? Good thing this isn't a math game.

-- massik

[massive]

I'm now braced for the possibility that a role we'd assume to be a given town will turn out to be scum

OK, now, this makes less sense than spinning a plate on my thumb. (Sorry.) With both Vizzini and Montoya dead and proven townie, why does it makes sense for ME to be the one "infidel" who would be a mafia-ite? It's a logical conclusion that Vizzini COULD be a townie (since, as MeMe said, his loyalties were always available to the highest bidder). It's NOT a logical conclusion that Fezzik would turn the other way. Heck, he didn't even START the movie as really a bad guy. Remember that both he and Montoya didn't know the real reason they had kidnapped Buttercup.

I'm hoping that jadesmar's replacement can help but I seriously doubt it. What role is left that hasn't been roleclaimed either truthfully or falsely? The boy?

I still think lynching Someone is the best bet here, unfortunately. (And speaking of being silent, Someone has been also since we started today.) If he's not a mouse, then we can start over.

Dourgrim wouldn't have bothered to concoct his "Boy's mother" roleclaim.

Remember that he'd been refusing the entire game. Go back and read the day we lynched Werebear. It was painfully obvious that he was hinting that he was Montoya as an FBI-agent-style role (innocent result day one, found mlaker guilty day two, no other results of his own) without actually coming out and saying it. Of COURSE he couldn't claim Montoya - mathcam would have blasted him (especially since mathcam was a confirmed townie).

[massive]

One thing to remember about night one is that we had both Miracle Max and Valerie in addition to whomever is still doing doctor work now, making the chances of protecting the ROUS's night one choice a LITTLE better. But the possibility of delayed death does seem like it could work since it is a "festering" leg wound.

And now I'll wait for mathcam since he's usually on around this time.

[massive]

Norinel, anything extra you'd like to add about protecting people before I post a giant, all-encompassing post as I am wont to do? I just realized that we don't know anything about your role. I don't care what it does, just if you might have had any part in protecting Talitha or Someone from the ROUS bites.

[massive]

I'm asking, more or less, if you in any way could have contributed to the WHY of the differing ROUS attacks. Like I said, I'm not interested in the specifics, just trying to get all the info before I blurt out some stuff.

[massive]

OK, I'm going to lay this all out on the table then. I'm the remaining protector role. It's situational, but my list of protectees reads like this: Myself night one, and then DP/Talitha every night since then, except for Night 6, when I didn't protect anyone.

If I'm the only protector left, and WASN'T protecting Someone any night near his bite/limp, and WAS protecting DP/Talitha all nights near his/her bite/limp, how do we explain how Someone and Talitha had similar results?

The answer HAS to be that my protection had no effect on whatever happened to them. We can't assume anything different happened to them. Someone is the right lynch. If we win, then all's good. If we don't, Talitha is also a ROUS.

-- massik

[massive]

In addition please note: I did not protect anyone on Night 6, which was AFTER Talitha had been bitten AND Dourgrim had been lynched. Up until this point we had had either deaths or limping from ROUS attacks. Why wouldn't the ROUS, if it's the only remaining killing role, want to at least ATTEMPT to kill Talitha?

I think the "time-delay" theory is smoke. I think that Dourgrim's kill on night one was blocked, but it's irrelevant. I think that Someone was recruited N4 and Talitha on N5. I think they skipped their kill last night so that focus would fall on rite.

(The other option being, of course, that DP/Talitha was NEVER the Grandfather, but I think we can remove that since the ROUS would have no knowledge of Rugen/Humperdinck on days one and two.)

I'm kinda grumbly about the whole thing. I mean, I protected Talitha last night and she probably did the killing. Sorry, T, but I'll be protecting someone else tonight.

[massive]

massive, why wouldn't you have protected, say,

me

I will admit that "rite=scum" was all I could see. I assumed the game would be finished when we lynched him. When we still went on, the thought that a second ROUS was in the game (and might be our investigator) hadn't even occured to me as possible. The only thought I had was "gotta protect the cop." (And rightly so, at that time, I think.)

One thing to keep in mind is that Talitha, our cop, is now under suspicion. So probably take her result with a grain of salt.

[massive]

Yes, by all means, Someone, let's prove your scumminess by having you vote for me. Thumbs up.

We can't let you live tonight and investigate you, as has been said already. Since Talitha couldn't be counted on to investigate rite (who really COULD have cleared you), we lynched him and removed our only real investigator unbeknownst to us. So I'm playing as though we don't have an investigator any more.

But we do still have a doc. As proven by multiple deathless nights whil both the Mafia AND the ROUS were alive. And you're voting for him.

I also don't understand the Fishbulb/double-vote thing. I think we're all pretty sure it's Fishypants.

[massive]

OK, memory lapse here, didn't we have another cop still alive?

Nope, Talitha couldn't swear to his innocence so we stuck his head in a beehive. (What? I'm trying!) Right now we have (claimed): four powerless townies, a double-voting king, an investigative grandpa, a protecting giant, Westley, and ... well crud, I don't know WHAT mathcam2 is.

I was thinking about the Talitha/rite inspection earlier and would like to continue on about it, but I think it's best to save for tomorrow.

-- doctor massik

[massive]

Look, I will happily die today to prove that Talitha and Someone are the remaining baddies. There's nine of us and no more than two of them. Feel free to lynch me. I feel like I've made enough of an impact in this game that going out now won't even make me blink.

[massive]

Talitha: I think it was your fault that rite got lynched. Not that you "accidentally" forgot to investigate him, but that you couldn't. Your bite attack came Night 5 and your rite investigation would have happened on Night 6 ... except you couldn't say one way or the other which he was, and it was too risky to come out and pick. If he was innocent and you said he was guilty, you would be exposed when he was lynched. If he was guilty and you said he was innocent, he'd know you were lying and use that information to lynch you and establish his innocence. I'm not saying you're ignorant for not investigating rite; I think you're brilliant for making the right play and NOT jeopardizing your position. You got us to lynch a townie, which is something we had NOT been doing much of this game.

You are correct in saying that I was the one anxious to lynch him. Rightly so, I still believe. The movie would definitely have you believe he should be Mafia, and that being the case, he would have been the last one and the game would have been over. Of COURSE I was anxious because it meant we won.

And does it really seem likely that a killing group would go after the clearly protected Talitha two nights in a row? Especially after the first one failed.

There was no Mafia kill Night 3 or 4. There was no ROUS kill Night 3 and Dourgrim switched to biting (I presume) on Night 4. We have a doctor besides Max and Valerie. There's no other way to explain it. None of the dead players meet the criteria. Are you saying that the Mafia decided NOT to try and kill DP after he had already nailed two of them? My guess is that they figured any remaining docs would be one-shot or limited in some other fashion, which I am.

Sugar: I asked for all info before revealing because I wanted to make absolutely sure I had caught the ROUS'es. I think that makes sense. There's no sense in saying "Hi, I'm the doctor!" when someone else could be responsible for the difference in ROUS attacks. I thought I did it pretty responsibly too - I didn't ask for any direct information and mathcam2's role is still intact.

In any event: As I said in the last post, if lynching me will help you realize that there HAS to be recruiting going on, then by all means do so.

[massive]

Someone: I think you're missing the point. If we can't trust you, then we can't trust Talitha for the exact same reasons, so relying on her to clear you is like asking Darth Vader to clear the Emperor.

[massive]

I want to go on record and say that I protect mathcam last night, as he asked. So quit your complaining.

I'll be curious to see if Talitha wants to continue to campaign for Someone's innocence.

[massive]

Are we assuming that they've both been recruited, as Someone seems to have been?

See, I can't imagine we have a chance to win then. If the remaining ROUS(es) can recruit at will, then eventually they'll outnumber the town no matter HOW many we lynch. We have to go back to the time-delay recruit theory and I really HATE that theory.

But in any event, mathcam also said I should have protected him LAST night, and I figured that if Talitha was hinting I should protect him, that I'd probably NOT protect him due to reverse-psychology, and it wouldn't matter since she wasn't killing anyways, it looks like.

Me so confused. If they can recruit on the spot, we don't have a chance. The only thing any of us can hope for is to become an ROUS so we win.

[oh wait, I see what you're saying, Sugar. You're asking "does my protection interfere with the ROUS so that it's a recruit bite and not a kill bite?" I don't know. That's a good possibility, but doesn't explain how Someone became an ROUS in the first place. We'd have to assume he was an ROUS all along and I don't think that's the case, or there's a FOURTH doctor in the game who hasn't revealed that ability.]

[massive]

I think we should deal with (Lynch one, investigate the other) them first.

I honestly think this scenario is the worst. If we ignore our bite candidates at this point, true, we still can win, but only if they can't recruit any more.

Someone was a townie. Someone got bit and limped around. Someone was an ROUS when we lynched him. The logical conclusion is not "oh, an ROUS attacked one of their own." The logical conclusion is "Someone got bit and became an ROUS."

Obviously it will be up to the entire town, but I think the best play is to go after Talitha and (now) mathcam. If you want to lynch mathcam today to prove the theory, that still leaves Talitha available to "inspect" someone tonight.

(Never mind the fact that, if she were still an inspector, she would have inspected ME since I was the one she was most suspicious of and actually voted for. Or at least would have cleared an uncleared townie.)

Has massive (Fezzik) stated any abilities as of yet?

I'm your remaining doctor, although instead I feel like a vet. Sad to say but I probably will not protect anyone tonight in the interest of preventing the whole town from going to the ROUSes.

Oh, and

vote Talitha

.

[massive]

Going after Talithat because of the leg bit is now ridiculous.

Your change of opinion makes your situation quite obvious. Why exactly is going after Talitha because of her leg bite ridiculous, when we lynched Someone yesterday, under the same auspices, and he turned out to be a ROUS? Are you saying that Norinel's suggestion that the ROUSes attacked themselves to throw us off makes sense?

Yes, I mentioned the fact that if we're all being turned into ROUSes, that we can't win. That's IF the change takes place immediately and IF the remaining ROUSes have unlimited recruiting, and still doesn't preclude the fact that, as the town, we should still be at least TRYING to win and not just giving ourselves over to the ROUSes. And while I don't think it's possible, if it IS my protection that is causing the change from kill-bite to recruit-bite, we don't have to worry about that any more, as I'll just stop protecting. It's better to have a dead player than another ROUS.

I have another possibility that I want to put forth. What if the ROUSes only have one recruit each? Dourgrim hit Someone, Someone hit Talitha, Talitha hit mathcam. Maybe the right move is to lynch mathcam today to stop the process. Anyways,

Talitha has given us several correct investigations, right? How can we doubt her authenticity?

Her recent string of investigations have little to no veracity. She failed to investigate rite on the night before the day we lynched him, when he obviously was the leading target, instead investigating a confirmed powerless townie. She failed to investigate me last night, when she was suspicious of me enough to vote for me, instead investigating someone who was already a confirmed innocent and that she herself had already investigated. In fact, if you look at her record since the night of her bite, it gives us little to no new information at all.

I'm

most

suspicious of massive, who seems to have little in terms of proving that he's a doc.

I guess the fact that we had two days with zero kills is a complete crock. Two days, I might add, with BOTH ROUSes AND Mafia still alive, two days AFTER our real doctors were both killed, two days where I protected the investigator who is still alive, even. That must mean that not only did the ROUSes attack themselves, but also that the Mafia decided not to send in a kill in an attempt to throw us off. Didn't work real well since we killed 'em all.

As I said earlier: If you want to lynch me, do so, since it will prove my case. You can't do that because you need me to stick around and be the scapegoat. Since I'm pretty much saying that I won't protect tonight, I'm no better than a powerless townie, so my loss won't hurt the town at all. Go for it. But I know you can't without coming up with another bizarre scenario, one that will be even LESS believable to the fair people of this town.

[massive]

Cam: I'm not getting indignant. I'm just trying to help everyone ELSE see my point of view. I think I've taken the most logical conclusions, but I also concur that my own knowledge of my innocence plays a key role in making these decisions (that is, without knowing my allegiance, you can't assume that I'm logically sound). THAT is why I am more than happy to volunteer to die - it gives the other townies one more piece of information to base their decisions off of. It's not throwing the towel in. It's realizing that what may be best for the town may not be one's continued existence. I stick by what I said: lynching me will prove me right. That's not something the ROUSes can afford at this juncture in the game.

I've never said that I made the choice not to protect someone that night. I've always said I'm a conditional doctor. As for being irresponsible in my protection choices - shrug. At the point each choice was made, DP had been not only the investigator but the really accurate investigator, not to mention our only lead for any info. No one presented themselves as a better protection candidate. No one died. Shrug. I do agree that a Mafia comprised of Leonidas, Werebear, and mlaker does not seem like one who would continually attack the investigator, but with both the doctor and the backup doctor dead, they may have assumed that any remaining protection was one-shot at best. Once the game is over, I guess we'll see who choose what, but until then I'm going on the assumption that I picked right those nights.

My favorite part of the game so far:

Or like asking one rodent to clear another rodent

... from yesterday. Is that exactly what she attempted to do today? Sure looks like it.

I would like more discussion on the possible HOWs to the ROUS mechanic. Is it a one-per-ROUS recruit? Is it an if-protected-then-recruit? Is it something entirely different? Is there a way we can prove or disprove some of these ideas by who we lynch today?

[massive]

You told me earlier in the game that there is no way that Someone was protected when he was bitten. Now you're bringing it up as a possibility again, why?

I want to make sure we've covered all the possibilities under the sky. I'm pretty confident that you and cam are mice now but I want to make sure that we've considered every possible avenue before deciding how to proceed today.

You also suggested the possibility that there might be ROUS recruits WITHOUT the leg bite. Any reason why you suggested this?

And once again, please don't take what I'm saying in a negative light. I think you've done exactly what I would have done in your situation - I just am considering your situation as being "I am mafia" and not "I am the innocent cop."

If only townies can be recruited, then we should have won the game, since only Someone fits that description. Or are we going back to another starting ROUS? In which case, that other initial ROUS wouldn't be one of the remaining townies, since we're then presuming that the ROUSes were NOT given the townie info as a safe role claim (since that was only a possible point if Someone was an initial ROUS). Which, again, assuming that an ROUS wouldn't attack him/herself, means that the remaining ROUS is either Norinel, Fishbulb, or myself, and Norinel and Fishbulb have been cleared. It's not me. Logic fails.

-- doctor massik

[massive]

Macros: Why do you think the recruit ability would be too powerful? Remember that the recruit theory only really applies if there was only one ROUS to start with. In that event, it's no worse than a cult who can kill, which is completely believable for a game of this size.

-- doctor massik

[massive]

Great game everyone! Thanks for letting me survive so long. I thought I was a goner after the first day.

-- massive