War in Heaven II - Spirit of Vengeance (Over!)

[Giuseppe]

/confirming in topic, and also putting out this note:

Mod: I'll be V/LA until Monday night. My apologies for the inconvenience. I will try to post if I can, but the V/LA will not go away until Monday night for sure.

[Giuseppe]

Holy shit... 25 pages?

I'm back, but I haven't had a chance to read anything yet. Jet lag is horrible... I'll try to read everything over tomorrow.

Emphasis on 'try'.

[Giuseppe]

Holy cow, I should never have gone V/LA before this game started... Having caught up though, I'll try and get a few thoughts out, and make up for my 35 pages of silence. I appreciate you all bearing with me through my absence.

So, before any opinions on my part, when did Juls become ObvTown? I must have missed that.

[Giuseppe]

@The Fons, whose post went largely ignored a few pages ago: In the hopes of being more useful, I do believe that both Juls and ABR are scummy. First, let's speak of Juls.

I really didn't like Juls' 'Use me as your Puppet' thing. Why ABR? Why not just go with a majority? The selecting of a single player here feels off. She feels a bit tentative/laissez-faire in her choice of a partner, kind of like a suck-up. Probably afraid of an ABR attack, and giving him your vote would be a great way to avoid him attacking you.

Not to mention the "You'll be Sorry" comments Juls has been dropping for the last few pages. They feel poor and ill-contrived, like a way out of his previous mistake. I have no meta on Juls, this is simply my first impression.

A last bit, he sort of feels like Mafia trying to get away with lurking, while still lynching the Town. Giving his vote to ABR guarantees him a person to target, the logic behind targeting them, and reasonable immunity from the consequences *I was just following ABR, sorry!*

On the other hand, ABR was using really minor suspicion of Shinnen to throw him under the bus, and I feel like he wants to rampage his way through the town using the town points he got for furthering Shinnen's, the weakest scum's, lynch. Through such a robust bus, he's trying to put himself above suspicion, and the only people who need to put themselves above suspicion are the scum.

It's all speculation, but I don't like either of them. One feels like a mafia trying to get away with lurking, the other feels too much like a scum bully riding on the bus of a partner.

On a different note, Rofl feels quite town to me, in his own way. I'm also glad that Zwet has manned up in this game, and that he's defending himself. I'm getting a massive Town vibe from him, which isn't something I've felt in any other game I've played with him.

[Giuseppe]

Expect my Hurt on Hoopla. I'm rereading the last few pages one more time to make sure I'm not making a mistake.

[Giuseppe]

Shit, I got beaten to the punch. Anyway, for what it's worth, Hoopla had my hurt, in the end. Her connection to Shinnen was just so overwhelming that it drowned out her other possible merits, and I couldn't see her as anything but scum, in the end.

On a different note, ABR's really making a bitch out of this game. Dude, you can really chill out, because that Ad Hom is making me cringe, and I'm not even the target. That sort of hyper-aggression feels like scum with a massive anger management problem. It seems to me, or at least this is what it feels like from my perspective, that ABR is oppressing the Town.

He's really coming off to me as, like, a super-fascist-wannabe with a verbal AK-47 of Ad Hom. His incessant screaming and personal attacks make me feel like he's trying to totally shut the other players down, and his shouting certainly isn't making relevant discussion easier. This Illogical Rampage of his started in logic and fact, and then grew to something totally different. To put a finger on my earlier suspicions of ABR, when he started getting moody when talking to DGB he first felt scummy for having such a harsh reaction to relatively little prodding. His temper, since then, has grown with the size of his font and the number of curses in his posts, and I think that Hoopla's lynch stopped being logical around the time when ABR took point on the matter.

My Hurt to Hoopla would have been a return to the logic at the root of the argument, and not riding on ABR's ballistic, screaming fury. I feel that ABR would be a target to consider for tomorrow, depending on Hoopla's alignment, because the merit he earned earlier in the game has been tarnished, dented, and abused by his raucous and unhelpful behavior.

[Giuseppe]

Wow, I really got beaten to the punch. I think, though, that Hoopla flipping Town makes ABR look really, really scummy.

[Giuseppe]

@ABR- Am I not free to have my opinion? Your play style changed dramatically between day 1 and day 2. The ABR who got Shinnen lynched wasn't the ABR who got Hoopla lynched. Totally different approaches to the issue, like Scum would take if they knew they were lynching scum versus lynching town.

The words panicky, unnecessary, and hyper-aggressive come to mind when I look at those posts again. Did you need those adjectives in your play style to get Shinnen lynched? Nope. Something must have changed that required you to change your approach to getting Hoopla lynched, and I'd suggest it might have been knowledge of both their roles.

Anyway, it's a bit of information. Is it enough to support hurting ABR? No. Is it something the Town should definitely keep in mind? Yes. I do not believe ABR to be untouchable in this game, nor do I think it safe to assume that any person is 'untouchable'. Wasn't it ABR who brought up that metaphor to begin with, and put himself in that category? I don't like it.

We should be watching ABR closely.

[Giuseppe]

Why should she trust ABR? Has he done something ultra-productive besides cursing at everyone and bitching at everyone for pointless things and contributing to a mislynch?

QFT.

He totally brute-forced his way through Hoopla, and basically, through 3 pages of all caps text, strangled any alternative arguments. We can all see how well that worked out for the Town...

As for Juls asking for ABR to command her, I think the exact opposite of Tajo. I think scum really could try hiding behind ABR, and use his 'authority' to lynch town players. Juls hasn't exactly been active: it'd be easy for her to just decide not to vote on the same person ABR did if she didn't check the game. She's already said she can't keep up, she's laying the ground work to vote with ABR, and abandon or stay with him as she sees fit.

What's also odd is that ABR has shown no real suspicion of Juls for her action. Not quite sure why, really. Probably just that he likes the support. *Another reason why scum would side with ABR, he has yet to question it*

[Giuseppe]

^Major overreaction^

What's up with the caps lock, Seraphim? You're at full health, I believe, and Rofl couldn't really kill you on his own if the Town decided to keep you alive...

The fact that Rofl has 'no backing' makes the above post even more out of place.

[Giuseppe]

@Xyl- I read that game. I totally wouldn't blame him. With scum so badly ravaging him, anyone would be traumatized.

*That said, his paranoia has no place in this game, really*

[Giuseppe]

Juls still isn't playing. She's just kept on being a puppet, hasn't contributed anything relevant, and I'd like to hurt her, because lurker + helping ABR mindlessly isn't something I like.

I'd prefer, with my current feeling in the game on ABR, that he only have the weight of one player, not two, especially one that doesn't question anything he does.

Intent to Hurt Juls

[Giuseppe]

Alas, I cannot be as active as I would wish, but I have put out my opinions more so than other players in the lurker category.

I've seen Seraphim express the same intent to hurt, and Xyl has also said he agrees with my move. That said, I'll be laying down the hurt.[/b]

Hurt: Juls

Giuseppe held the feathered, white revolver in his hand, the soft metal feeling faintly warm in his hand. With a flap of his wings, Giuseppe soared upwards, readying his weapon out in front of him with both hands. Taking closer aim, Giuseppe cocked the gun, and fired a single shot. A golden ray of light came crashing down and poked a neat hole in Juls' shoulder. With a twirl of the revolver, Giuseppe holstered his gun.

[Giuseppe]

Hm... So, what is the Town's course of action right now? Do we have a really, truly, unified goal? The Fons is right. I see lots of itty-bitty factions.

If Walt is dead, I would propose backing up behind Juls.

Intent to Hurt Juls

And early, DGB had a point about ABR being just as guilty of

appeal to emotion
appeal to fear
appeal to authority

as Kinetic is. Let's hold off on either, and try and get the town in some sense of unity. Heaven shouldn't be like politics, with factions vying to cast each other out. The political vying going on between the factions here is going to get the town eaten alive, and people have totally abandoned the Intent to Hurt system, at least in my view of the game.

Let's start trying to line up a majority of the players behind a decision, instead of just a dedicated minority.

Would anyone object if I began to heal players who were hurt without at least 5 supporters on the hurting of that player? I'd like to avoid mislynches, as Walt's may very well be, although I can't be sure until he flips, if he flips.

[Giuseppe]

I don't recommend healing Walt. We need to see his flip, and I'm proposing this as a new policy. Everything up to now would be exempt.

That said, when hurting, a person would have to provide a list of at least 5 players who would support the action beside the name, and if one objects, they'd heal the hurt done.

This way, we can have a stronger majority within the town, and regulate the loose cannons.

For example: *Using Vote is intentional. I can't hurt Juls yet*

Vote: Juls (Supported by A, B, C, D, and E)

If any objects, they'd heal, and the point would be moot. I find this a nice system to reinstate some order in this game, and to defactionalize the town.

[Giuseppe]

My system would prevent people from going off on Hurting rampages without a consensus. Keeps the town more in line with a majority. The rogue would hurt, and the majority would heal if they found it necessary. We have more than enough players to be able to push an agenda and stop rogue agendas.

[Giuseppe]

The Buddy System isn't being used. How can we enforce it?

[Giuseppe]

@Fons- I'll be instituting my policy on this game once we have a flip on Walt, and I can reevaluate my scum opinions. You can expect me to act on people who don't use the Buddy System or my system. Those in favor of my system should use it, those in favor of the Buddy System should always use it. It'll catch on faster.

@Juls- No, you're not. To the best of my recollection.

[Giuseppe]

Anything is possible. We shouldn't rule it out, however unlikely.

[Giuseppe]

If Juls is just a cherub like she said, we're L-2 on her.

Intent to Hurt Juls

Anyone going to second that motion?

[Giuseppe]

Wunderbar! I'll take that as confirmation.

Hurt: Juls

"I cannot stand puppets. Only thing worse than a puppet is an incompetent master." The report of the revolver echoed outwards again, light piercing Juls through the shoulder once more.

[Giuseppe]

I'll support Xyl's call to hurt Juls. We'll deal with ABR afterwards, and you can count my name towards his lynch.

[Giuseppe]

I fail to see how my age effects my reasoning skills. I fail to see how ABR's age hasn't effected his maturity. O.o'

[Giuseppe]

Could ABR please list the pro-town players in this game without contradicting his prior statements from the past 80 pages of discussion?

[Giuseppe]

Since when did I hit Xyl's scum list?

[Giuseppe]

I was V/LA for the first half of the game.

[Giuseppe]

Alright Xyl, I don't believe Rofl should be able to be acting as unilaterally as he is. I've been saying all game I don't believe in unilateral action, and I'll stand to it.

Here's your

sign

heal.

Heal: Xylthixlm

I also support the ABR lynch. I think it's time he kicked the bucket, as he hasn't put forth anything compelling lately. I can't hurt for another 24 hours, but count me in on that.

[Giuseppe]

EBWOP:

Heal: Xylthixlm

[Giuseppe]

I'm not tolerating anything unilateral. Heal Xyl right now to make up for Rofl's work.

[Giuseppe]

Would anyone object to me filling that role?

It would just be organizing a mass hurt on players who break the unilateral rule, right?

[Giuseppe]

So, who do we elect to give up the hurt first?

[Giuseppe]

I have to say, I find DGB's idea a bit better in a perfect world, but it's a bit idealistic. I think if we could get a group of people who present the CounterHurt unit, then we could leave the rest of the town to their devises.

Maybe, say, three or four people who would dedicate their hurts to dealing with unilateral action?

[Giuseppe]

Look at how low Xyl got. Rofl could have killed him, or the scum could have rage dumped on him. It's an action that needs to be discouraged, with at least a little threat of consequences.

[Giuseppe]

Well, I suppose I'll go /in on Fons in plan. I think it'll work better once we see it in action.

That said, we need 5 more people.

[Giuseppe]

And I'll be after Firestarter? Alright, that gives me another 48 hours, meaning another action for me. Probably going to hurt ABR.

[Giuseppe]

Vote:
ABR
Rofl
Reserving this last spot.

I'm glad people finally have common sense and are using the system. Those against the system are the least town among us, as they represent a willing disapproval of a method created by an incredibly pro-town player *Tajo*, and seek to undermine his attempts at restoring order to the town.

Those who attempt Vigilantism are spreading the vote, and allowing scum to rage kill with ease.

I also dislike Rofl's 'Lynch Me, I Dare You' attitude. It seems immature, considering he's the one whose spreading all the damage around and undermining what most of the town wants to do.

[Giuseppe]

Hm, what?

[Giuseppe]

Well, I do confess my activity is a bit under the level I would normally like it to be, but I see my job in this game as something a bit different than in a normal, smaller game. Not everyone can be a leader, not in a game this large. Right now, I'm thinking a lot more than I'm posting, so that my actions, although few, will allow the more active members to gain the benefit of my opinion which is unmarred by feelings gained in the game in the heat of the moment, and my reading of the game is done in a perspective of the past, so that I can detach myself from the game, and look at the facts objectively.

So, to respond to Tajo, here's my read on the game.

In no particular order within their subclasses...

Most Town

Tajo
Fons
Firestarter

Neutral

Xylthixlm
DrippingGoofball
Tenchi
q21
vIQleS
Nuwen
zwetschenwasser

Most Scum

ABR
Roflcoptor
Seraphim

Yes, I believe that's everyone. I tend to believe that those most adamantly for the latest system are those who are most pro-town, and that those who are raging against it are scummier. The exception is Seraphim, whose consistent hurting of Townies is too scummy to ignore. I think I'll be adopting him as my third vote for mass hurting.

Vote: Seraphim

Does that help, Tajo?

[Giuseppe]

Well, to be honest, I was wondering that myself. I've got them as scum up there for two separate reasons: Rofl because his very game philosophy is hurting the town, and Seraphim because his actions through the course of the game have hurt the Town. Of the two, I personally find Rofl the scummier, because he's spreading the damage, hurting the Town, and all around causing general madness. I can't just ignore Seraphim's actions, however. He has been the single most consistently inaccurate player we have, as he's been on every Townie wagon, I believe.

That said, I'm not sure they could be scum together, but I'm definitely sure that either one or the other is scum, when you take into account Rofl's behavior. If Seraphim is scum, well, Rofl was right, for once, and he goes on with his crackpot anti-town ways. Doesn't change much, in my mind, because it could be the same hyper-bussing that ABR used on Shinnen. On the other hand, if Seraphim is town, I think that Rofl will have made one too many mistakes with this game and his evil, vigilantistic ways, and I'll call for his lynch louder than I've been calling for ABR's.


I totally disagree that Rofl is obvtown. He's been doing nothing but undermining our attempts at organization this entire game, and pretty much arranged all on his own for Kinetic to get killed by Rage Points.

[Giuseppe]

Ah, here's the hurt squad. Had to go to sleep early last night.

Hurt: Tenchi

-"You seek to corrupt the order of this world, and dash it against the rocks of anarchy. Out, damned spot, out from our beloved Heaven!" The beam of light pierced through Tenchi's chest.

So, here we are. We're the Hurt Squad, and we're serious about the damn anarchy thing.

[Giuseppe]

Xyl is one of the most wanted players...

[Giuseppe]

Hm, well, judging by my presence on Tajo's big, all-caps list of Non-Town players, I suppose at the very least I should follow his instructions, that I might work towards validating myself in his eyes.

Intent to Heal DGB

DGB is an Ophan, and as such, much, much weaker than any of the other damaged players. I think Tajo should get a couple of heals too, as he's one of the most pro-town players, in my opinion, but right now, DGB needs them more desperately. I'll be healing DGB, if no one objects, as soon as my timer is up, which is tomorrow afternoon, I believe.

[Giuseppe]

The real question is, what if Seraphim flips town?

[Giuseppe]

But what does that do to the rest of the suspicions? If Seraphim flips town, no matter how unlikely it is, what happens to all of this discussion?

[Giuseppe]

I believe that was when Rofl was solo-wagoning him.

[Giuseppe]

Well guys, this has been a wonderful game. An exciting game, and fast-paced. Unfortunately, I have to withdraw from it, although I really wish I could stay, and say I'd taken part from beginning to end in a game as cool as this one. So yes, consider this my formal request, in topic, for replacement. I'm going V/LA for an entire week, from April 3rd to April 10th, and in a game this fast, it'll be over by the time I return, unfortunately. This seems the only responsible, pro-town decision to make.

Before I go, however, I'd like to leave my parting words. Xyl does not seem particularly Townie to me, but then again, he doesn't really seem like super-scum. A marked him as neutral, and neutral he'll stay. I've been pushing all game for Rofl's lynch, and I won't stop now. I think Rofl is dangerous, berserking scum, and he's basically ensured that townies have been getting lynched left and right. That said, just based on Rofl's past suspicions, I'm inclined to say his judgment hasn't improved at all, at least not with Xyl.

However, I would like you all to do me, and my replacement, a favor. Please rehash the argument on Xyl, so that my replacement knows what's going on, and can help the town as they see fit. If the case is good, I may throw my hurt before I'm replaced, but don't count on it.

Thank you all for a wonderful game, and Viva La Town! I wish you all the best of luck.

[Giuseppe]

EBWOP: I* marked him as neutral-

[Giuseppe]

And I'm saying that I don't think he's scum. Give me the arguments again. I'm not trusting anything out of Rofl's mouth.

[Giuseppe]

Is that all there is on him?

[Giuseppe]

I'm not hurting Xyl without a case. Give me the case, I'll give the hurt.

[Giuseppe]

Tajo, seriously, that's not an argument I can accept. I want to make the right choice for the town, and taking your word for it isn't something I can just do.

We're close to death and doom and fire and brimstone at the hands of the scum.

And you want me to just take your word for it?

No.

I want the case of Xyl. I'm more than willing to hurt if it's good, and I'd be elated to strike scum with my last hurt in this game. But the argument has to be good.

And you, Xyl, help yourself. Show me the calculations to justify healing DGB.

I want to make the best choice possible.

[Giuseppe]

Give me the damn argument if you believe it's true! You're the one talking about wasting time: give me the argument, and if it's good, I'll hurt Xyl.

Would somebody please give me the argument against Xyl?!

[Giuseppe]

I don't see how protecting the Ophan from a scum rage kill is anti-town though! Is that it? Is that really all?

Your two arguments, Tajo, have been the following two quotes:

Hurt Xyl if you are town.
Thats my case.

And this:

THE DAMN ARGUMENT IS THAT SCUM HAVE RAGE. HEALING INSTEAD OF HURTING SOMEONE YOU THINK IS SCUM IS SOMETHING A TOWNIE WOULDNT DO.

And I don't see how protecting the Ophan is an anti-town thing to do. Xyl's in the right here, if you have no more to say. I can't lynch someone just by taking another person's word for it: please, give me more credit than that. Give me a case.

[Giuseppe]

Is it a possibility that there are scum Ophan? Sure. Do I think DGB is scum? No.

Where's the case against Xyl? I don't see it. Where's the proof in his behavior? I see plenty of evidence for Rofl scum, what with his vigilantism, and the like. The like, in this case, being 9 deaths almost entirely do to his own meddling. But I don't see Xyl as scum. I don't see it, I can't see it!

This is one lynch too many, one I feel is going to end in absolute disaster for the Town! Xyl is Town until proven Scum. And you haven't even shown me stuff to say he's scum!

The fact that not one of you can put forth more evidence than this is just proving that Xyl is town, and that everyone on his wagon is sadly delusional.

If you truly believe Xyl is scum, sit down and write me the argument. If you can. I don't think there is one.

[Giuseppe]

So, 6 out of 9? That's 2/3rds of the townie deaths this game.

I refuse to be bullied and accused for standing up for a man with no case against him.

[Giuseppe]

Guys, look:

We're wasting time with these one-liner, nonsense posts. You could have written the Iliad with the time you've wasted not telling me why to lynch Xyl. I'm ready, and I'm willing. I'm charged and I can aim the gun at Xyl's head, and shoot. But I need a case. It doesn't have to be a quote wall or something massive. Just something honestly convincing...

Nothing said thus far is really all that much evidence towards Xyl as scum. I want a nice paragraph, nothing big, that tell me why, honestly why, Xyl is the scum we're looking for.

I

will

hurt him if the case is good. I want to help the Town before I leave. But right now, the best thing for me to do is not hurt him. I can't hurt a man who doesn't have a case on him.

And if you won't do it for me, for whatever reason, at least do it for my replacement. 137 pages is a lot to read, and he or she will need all the help they can get.

[Giuseppe]

Oh wow! We won! I went on vacation right around the time we thought Michael was actually a pro-town power role, and thus, I wasn't sure how it was going to turn out, but I guess it ended well in the end.

Good game, gentlemen. : D