Open 121: Two of Four (b9) - Over! before 752

[SensFan]

Vote: zwet

[SensFan]

If you're going to random vote me, at least give me the honor of spelling out my full name.

Where did I say it was random?

[SensFan]

Trolls are cute and cuddly.

You're not helping yourself by posting random bullshit.

[SensFan]

Did I miss the rvs, or are people spouting crap for no reason?

The fact you seem to be complaining that we are no longer in the 'random' stage is further reason to be voting you.

[SensFan]

She wasn't asking why that was the case. She quite clearly was asking why you felt the need to point that out.

[SensFan]

I like RVS...

And I like people who play the fucking game. If youi're here to fuck around, feel free to ask to be replaced. Otherwise, I

will

push for your lynch.

[SensFan]

What did I miss? Why is SensFan getting mad?

Youi haven't said a damn thing all game. And your meta doesn't show good odds of you doing so, either.

[SensFan]

If you're going to be a jerk in this game even though nothing's happened yet and the game has just started I'll be very sad...

You're still point-blank refusing to play the fucking game?

[SensFan]

WTF? WHERE THE HECK DID I SAY I WASN"T GOING TO PLAY THE GAME???!!!

Actions speak lowder than words.

[SensFan]

OK, folks. Stop it. Now. I'm playing this game, it's only on Page 3, and there haven't been actions or anything important. Why are you saying all this random load of bullcrap when you don't even know anything yet?

Not everyone does random things at the beginning of the game. In fact, the only ones who benefit from any randomness are Scum. Now start playing.

[SensFan]

I am playing. And since when is the RVS a bad thing for town?

Mafia is a game of logic, calculation, precision, deduction, persuasion, debating, and luck.

Now, which of the above is the odd one out?

[SensFan]

Seriously. One of those 7 words is kinda WAY the odd one out...

[SensFan]

Peace/Hippie love?

You're really not too good at this whole 'playing' thing, are you?

[SensFan]

I would be if you would stop trying to find fault in everything I'm saying and actually play the game instead of randomly insulting me.

I am playing the game. Everything I have said related directly to this game, and my goal of finding Scum.

[SensFan]

Is it Luck?

Sens: If you were to pick one post to exemplify Zwet's bad behaviour, which one would you pick?

What about the fact that I can't find a single useful post, with any form of content, out of his 19?

[SensFan]

This probably sums up his terrible play best, if I can only pick one:

OK, folks. Stop it. Now. I'm playing this game, it's only on Page 3, and there haven't been actions or anything important. Why are you saying all this random load of bullcrap when you don't even know anything yet?

[SensFan]

Eh, in the one I quoted, he actually is arguing in favour of randomness.

[SensFan]

The one I quoted is pretty terrible AtE.

I know, but I said all his posts were terrible, and Emp made me pick one.

[SensFan]

SensFan is overreacting, and KMD is hopping on easily with the general opinion.

Explain why I'm overreacting. Better yet, start playing.

[SensFan]

You're majorly pissing me off, Sens. Stop. KMD, no it isn't, and I'd like to hear a response from Dark about his contradiction.

I asked you a direct question that allowed you to start playing, and explain why you think I'm overreacting. You chose to ignore it.

Why isn't zwet lynched yet?

[SensFan]

Getting furious for jokeposting on page 2=overreacting.

You are REFUSING TO PLAY. Why should I sit back and let you make 20 posts of absolute useless bullshit, when you should be hunting for Scum?

[SensFan]

Dark, is the only reason you're voting me your conjecture that I'm not adding content?

Oh gee, I didn't realize not adding any content in 20+ posts wasn't a reason to think someone is Scum;

Unvote

.

...

Oh right, it is...

Vote: zwet

.

[SensFan]

Okay so DO NOT LYNCH zwetschenwasser for whatever silly reasons you guys who put him at L-1 felt, that was pretty stupid in my opinion. Zwets has been 100% consistent in this game with his gameplay from my past experiences with him so while I agree he's not really helpful this is just how he is so chill out.

Other then that there's not really much to go off so far but I'm pissed that we put our claimed cop at a position where he's vulnerable to scum attacks.

I went after him at first based on past experiences, and told him I wouldn't unvote him until he changed. He still hasn't changed, so my vote remains.

[SensFan]

Nope, not at all. What he's doing is ridiculously helpful if he's Scum, and completely useless if he's Town.

KMD, I agree. This isn't Open, though, we don't know that we have a Cop.

[SensFan]

Nope, not at all. What he's doing is ridiculously helpful if he's Scum, and completely useless if he's Town.

KMD, I agree. This isn't Open, though, we don't know that we have a Cop.

You and the three other people who put zwets at L-1 have also been ridiculously helpful if you're scum as well.

That's not going to fly. Are you saying that because he's decided to CLAIM Cop it means it was retroactively a bad idea to wagon him for not playing?

[SensFan]

Nope, not at all. What he's doing is ridiculously helpful if he's Scum, and completely useless if he's Town.

KMD, I agree. This isn't Open, though, we don't know that we have a Cop.

You and the three other people who put zwets at L-1 have also been ridiculously helpful if you're scum as well.

That's not going to fly. Are you saying that because he's decided to CLAIM Cop it means it was retroactively a bad idea to wagon him for not playing?

SensFan...you have done absolutely nothing but repeat the same b.s. so far. You aren't playing either, or contributing anything of substance to this game in any way, shape, or form at all.

Why is it BS? I am actively going after someone who has been promoting the usage of so-called 'randomness' in lieu of going after people.

It may help if you know that I consider anyone doing ANYTHING randomly (yes, that includes random voting) to be the biggest scumtell there is.

[SensFan]

Nope, not at all. What he's doing is ridiculously helpful if he's Scum, and completely useless if he's Town.

KMD, I agree. This isn't Open, though, we don't know that we have a Cop.

You and the three other people who put zwets at L-1 have also been ridiculously helpful if you're scum as well.

That's not going to fly. Are you saying that because he's decided to CLAIM Cop it means it was retroactively a bad idea to wagon him for not playing?

SensFan...you have done absolutely nothing but repeat the same b.s. so far. You aren't playing either, or contributing anything of substance to this game in any way, shape, or form at all.

Why is it BS? I am actively going after someone who has been promoting the usage of so-called 'randomness' in lieu of going after people.

It may help if you know that I consider anyone doing ANYTHING randomly (yes, that includes random voting) to be the biggest scumtell there is.

It's b.s. because you're basically going after someone due to a clash of playstyle instead of scumhunting on solid grounds.

I don't consider 'doesn't contribute and supports randomness' to be a legit playstyle, or one that I will allow. It plainly benefits Scum more than Town.

[SensFan]

You started your attack on zwets with your first post. If you really go after those who aren't being as serious as you apparently see fit in determining you could have easily started your attack with Darkcoffeejazz, ZazieR, Kmd, or BlondeSoWut. You came into this game with a target already in mind and that to me feels like you decided that Night 0.

I've seen KMD play, he's fantastic.
I've never seen DCJ, Zaz, or BSW play, I don't judge.
I've seen zwet play, he promoted the idea that a Cop and Vig should target the same person.

[SensFan]

DarkCoffee, this isn't "where you're from". We find policy lynching usually scummy if it can be avoided.

That's bullshit and you know it. I can't go into details because the game is ongoing, but I can find plenty of finished games where people were pressured due to their playstyle.

[SensFan]

Anyway, I don't agree with you on post 142. Normally it would be the case, but not this time. He has already seen in a different game, that we have much time to discuss things. His excuse in this game is just weak.
Also, have you seen his reason to unvote? In case you haven't:

But seeing as he's claimed, for now I'll Unvote.

He's unvoted, because Zwet has claimed, not because of what Zwet claimed!

Huh? My 142 is saying zwet's point about policy lynches is bullshit.

[SensFan]

KMD, I agree. This isn't Open, though, we don't know that we have a Cop.

Um.

Yes it is...?

Not where I'm from. Where I'm from, we have 48 hour days, 24 hour nights, and if you don't vote at all, or vote the wrong person, yer scummy.
So I always vote. Even if it's a random vote Day 1. After all, if you don't lynch anyone, you learn nothing.
If Zwet is truly town, and is what he claims, I think we have a new target.

First off being wrong is NOT a scumtell.

Second, we need a new target REGARDLESS of if we believe Zwet or not. If he's fakeclaiming, we'll know later.

I partially agree with you saying being wrong is not a scumtell. Obviously people are going to make mistakes and not just scum made up a bandwagon on a lynched townie but if a townie is ever lynched I believe that all players who voted for that townie should go under intense scrutiny.

You do just that. Don't expect me to defend why I voted for [insert hypothetical dead Town that was lynched], though, unless I quickhammered.

If you don't have an issue with the wagon while the player is alive, you shouldn't have an issue with it if said player flips Town.

[SensFan]

If you don't have an issue with the wagon while the player is alive, you shouldn't have an issue with it if said player flips Town.

No, but scum are likely to be on most any mislynch. When you have a group of players which are more likely to be scum, you look into them a little more than you did before.

Scum are also more likely to not be on the lynch of someone they know is innocent.

If an innocent is lynched, I'm way more wary of the people that defended them tooth and nail than those that attacked tooth and nail.

[SensFan]

If an innocent is lynched, I'm way more wary of the people that defended them tooth and nail than those that attacked tooth and nail.

About what percentage of your games with a Day 1 mislynch have you seen 0 scum on the wagon?

Straw man much?

I never said there are no Scum on a mislynch, I'd say there's probably Scum on every non-Lylo-Scum lynch.

But Town going after ScummyTown is very possible (and even pro-Town, really). Town defending ScummyTown tooth and nail, barely plausible.

If zwet flips Town, I will be looking at hewitt

very

closely.

[SensFan]

SensFan

He's pretty much matching the town meta I have on him. I don't have scum meta, but I'd guess Sens is town right now.

Do you want a full list of all my completed games, sorted by alignment? I have one that I did in a game that ended not too long ago, shouldn't take more than 2-3 minutes to add in the games since.

[SensFan]

Empking I don't understand exactly what you were thinking in this game voting zwets so early on. To me you're hopping on the first bandwagon you can think of. You know zwets acts like this, you know this is how he plays, we have both played in the same game with him before where his behaviour was extensively analyzed, criticized, etc. This game is no different so why did you support a zwets lynch?

If I decided that in every game I played, I would lie, have no content, argue for terrible theory, and always claim NK-Immune-SuperCop-SuperDoc-SuperVig, do you think I would EVER live past Day 1?

[SensFan]

This should be all of my completed games. It does not include games in which I was replaced.

Newbie Games (Scum)
Newbie 613
Newbie 669
Newbie 683
Newbie 725

Newbie Games (Town)
Newbie 514
Newbie 550
Newbie 585
Newbie 586
Newbie 608
Newbie 638
Newbie 662

Mini Games (Scum)
Mini 537
Mini 550
Mini 551
Mini 570
Mini 625
Open 97

Mini Games (Town)
Mini 531
Mini 532
Mini 562
Mini 604
Mini 610
Mini 632
Mini 639
Mini 643
Mini 661
Mini 685
Open 102
Open 109
Open 113

Large Games (Scum)
Realistic Mafia
ehobanohar
Mafia 79

Large Games (Town)
Mafia 85

[SensFan]

...you have no idea how tempted I am to hammer right now...

[SensFan]

...you have no idea how tempted I am to hammer right now...

Wow, that's so smart.

Because there's such a huge threat if he's Town, right? And the fact we might have *gasp* lynched an innocent person is ridiculously terrible and game-throwing, right? And the fact we would risk mislynching someone Day 1 is so bad it doesn't nearly make up for the absolute wealth of information we would get out of a hammer right now, right?

[SensFan]

I warned you people.

Unvote, Vote: Darkcoffejazz

[SensFan]

GAME RULES

Posting during twilight is allowed.

Sens, why the hammer?

Is explaining today better than explaining tomorrow, or does Town get some sort of secret benefit from knowing now that outweighs the fact that Scum would use my answer for their kill before Town uses it to lynch?

[SensFan]

GAME RULES

Posting during twilight is allowed.

Sens, why the hammer

before a claim

?

fix'd

We've already stopped one lynch because of a Power claim. I'm not letting it happen again. Besides, its not like Scum would claim Townie...

[SensFan]

That was so fucking stupid.

Hey, I gave fair warning. TWO people who had a vote on DCJ left it on after I warned everyone.

[SensFan]

It's b.s. because you're basically going after someone due to a clash of playstyle instead of scumhunting on solid grounds.

Hey hewitt, this is my playstyle. By your own logic, get used to it.

[SensFan]

I'm willing to go with a

Vote: BSW

here, for the simple reason that she hasn't given any opinions.

That's 2 votes, 4 to lynch.

[SensFan]

I don't like lynching players so quickly when we've got a huge deadline is a good idea

You think the fact we have a deadline X days away means we need to wait (X-1) days to lynch someone?

[SensFan]

I don't like lynching players so quickly when we've got a huge deadline is a good idea

You think the fact we have a deadline X days away means we need to wait (X-1) days to lynch someone?

No I like to find out more information from the player I want to lynch before actually lynching them.

What information did you want from him, a claim?

I have news for you, if you're willing to stop a lynch based on a claim of Power, we're going to lose. The only people that WON'T claim Power are the Townies.

[SensFan]

I don't like lynching players so quickly when we've got a huge deadline is a good idea

You think the fact we have a deadline X days away means we need to wait (X-1) days to lynch someone?

No I like to find out more information from the player I want to lynch before actually lynching them.

What information did you want from him, a claim?

I have news for you, if you're willing to stop a lynch based on a claim of Power, we're going to lose. The only people that WON'T claim Power are the Townies.

Don't put words in my mouth. You have a funny tendency to do that. No I do not stop lynches for claims I like to keep them around long enough to try and draw connections between them and their scum buddies.

I never put any words in your mouth, I asked what information you wanted. You seem REALLY jumpy, and way overly paranoid.

Combined with the fact it looks like you knew zwet was going to flip Town, and that you were ridiculously upset/worried when I hammered DCJ, I think I'm happy with a

(Unvote) Vote: hewitt

[SensFan]

I actually disagree with the case against hewitt. I don't see why scum would post upset after their partner is lynched. And I've been also a few times sure that someone was town, while everyone else saw that player as scum (see NG 684).

Then I want hewitt to explain how the FUCK he saw zwet as Town.

I'm actually more interested in Sens as that hammer is questionable, and BSW as her disappearance was rather 'convenient'.
So I'm waiting to hear from Sens if he actually thought that DCJ was scummy with reasons, and to hear some content from BSW.

Of course I thought he was scummy. I don't hammer people that early if I don't think they're scummy.

[SensFan]

I'm actually more interested in Sens as that hammer is questionable, and BSW as her disappearance was rather 'convenient'.
So I'm waiting to hear from Sens if he actually thought that DCJ was scummy

with reasons

, and to hear some content from BSW.

If I thought he was scummy, I had reasons for thinking so.

[SensFan]

I actually disagree with the case against hewitt. I don't see why scum would post upset after their partner is lynched. And I've been also a few times sure that someone was town, while everyone else saw that player as scum (see NG 684).

Then I want hewitt to explain how the FUCK he saw zwet as Town.

I'm actually more interested in Sens as that hammer is questionable, and BSW as her disappearance was rather 'convenient'.
So I'm waiting to hear from Sens if he actually thought that DCJ was scummy with reasons, and to hear some content from BSW.

Of course I thought he was scummy. I don't hammer people that early if I don't think they're scummy.

What do you mean how I saw zwets as town? I think he's town because he's being absolutely, perfectly consistent with his playstyle. And look at that, he was town. So obviously I knew what I was talking about.

Show me a game he played as Scum where he played differently.

[SensFan]

I actually disagree with the case against hewitt. I don't see why scum would post upset after their partner is lynched. And I've been also a few times sure that someone was town, while everyone else saw that player as scum (see NG 684).

Then I want hewitt to explain how the FUCK he saw zwet as Town.

I'm actually more interested in Sens as that hammer is questionable, and BSW as her disappearance was rather 'convenient'.
So I'm waiting to hear from Sens if he actually thought that DCJ was scummy with reasons, and to hear some content from BSW.

Of course I thought he was scummy. I don't hammer people that early if I don't think they're scummy.

What do you mean how I saw zwets as town? I think he's town because he's being absolutely, perfectly consistent with his playstyle. And look at that, he was town. So obviously I knew what I was talking about.

Show me a game he played as Scum where he played differently.

Show me a game where he did.

You're claiming you were willing to defend the most obviously scummy play I have seen in a long time because of his meta. I expect you to show me at least one example of him playing differently when he is Scum. And no, examples of him playing like this as Town don't count.

[SensFan]

No no no, his scummy play started way before he claimed. I want to know exactly made you see him as being Town, if not for the fact you knew he wasn't your buddy.

You claimed it was because of his meta. So show me games where he indicated he suddenly is half-decent when he's Scum.

[SensFan]

No no no, his scummy play started way before he claimed. I want to know exactly made you see him as being Town, if not for the fact you knew he wasn't your buddy.

You claimed it was because of his meta. So show me games where he indicated he suddenly is half-decent when he's Scum.

No I'm not going to, I don't do that. And I never said that I was 100% fully convinced that zwets was town. I said that I thought he was town. Based on previous games I've played with him I found similarities between his playstyle this game as with others so I thought he was town and I was right.

You were trying to halt a wagon on him, and called all of the people on it scummy. I want good reasons for why you were so sure he was Town, when his play was anything BUT Town.

The fact he has played like this as Town before (and I know he has) means shit all unless he plays differently as Scum.

[SensFan]

I'm actually starting to find this pretty obvious who's scum now. Sensfan. Where is all this coming from? Go back and re-read this game. I never once said "oh, oh don't lynch zwets he's a townie for sure". What's with trying to start a bandwagon on me with shitty grounds? Thought I'd be an easy D2 lynch so that's why you didn't kill me during night eh?

Vote: SensFan

Oh, yay. Some OMGUS thrown in for good measure...

[SensFan]

Uh, I'm not voting for you because I think you suck, I'm voting for you because I think you're scum. You always manage to take what I'm doing and twist it around in a negative way, and that's fucking scummy. I don't think you get it. You can't give anyone a free pass and everyone is equally as likely to be scum. You came into this game with zwets as a target in mind and that to me is scummier then anything zwets did.

And I don't know who the hell Nat is so I don't care.

That's a blatant misrep. I came into this game with the prospect of teaching zwet to play. He showed to be completely useless, and incapable of doing anything useful. So he was wagoned.

Ever heard of a policy-lynch? Because we didn't get NEARLY that far with zwet...

[SensFan]

Wake up, dude. People have come into games before and flat-out lynched people because of their terrible meta. I didn't come into this game wanting to lynch zwet, in fact I very clearly laid out my expectations of him. He failed to even attempt to meet said expectations, instead spewing the random bullshit that he always does.

So I wanted him wagonned (at the least). Just like I would expect to be lynched if I ever played like that.

[SensFan]

That does nooooooooot at all mean people should do it just because others do it. Basically you're saying because other people do it you should do it too and that makes it acceptable. And zwets may have been spewing random bullshit but you were just spewing regular bullshit.

Let's face it. If going into the game, I knew he would refuse to play, I would absolutely be ready to wagon him to a claim in the first page. He's absolutely useless even as Town, and still has equal chances to be Scum. Seems like a pretty good Day 1 wagon to me.

And if you are going to call my attacks (which, by the way, got quite a following, given that zwet was pressured to a claim) bullshit, please break down where I went wrong in my attack.

[SensFan]

Hold up for a minute, so you planned on wagoning him to a claim? Because that's what you just said and that's exactly what zwets did. So you had it already planned out.

Yes. If I knew he wouldn't put any effort into improving his abysmall play, I would have been fine with him going to L-1 (or maybe L-2, just to be safe) before he even posted.

And that's something I feel regardless of my alignment.

[SensFan]

Okay does anybody else (speaking to everybody but SensFan and Kmd) find this absolutely ridiculous?

Should I direct you to examples of some of the very best players approving the idea of policy lynches?

So you, SensFan, came into this game with a gameplan to basically screw zwets over and it succeeded. I don't believe for one second that it was to improve his play you can't affect how someone else plays the game and you knew zwets wasn't going to change for you. It was an easy D-1 gameplan for you and your buddy and during night you planned to start a bandwagon on me and now that's what's your attempting to do.

Why don't you believe it was to improve his play? I point-blank stated exactly what I was looking for out of him. I got 19 (if I recall, not sure on the exact number) completely useless and irrelevant posts to start the game, most of which were "WHAT?!?!? OMG!!!!!" Any Town worth their salt will pressure a player like that.

And you may recall, but I said as early as Day 1 that anyone stubbornly defending a good wagon is scummy.

Oh, and lets not forget how you shit a brick when I mentioned that I was tempted to hammer DCJ, who flipped Scum.

[SensFan]

Drawn Together. If I counted right, Nat gets to L-1 on page 2.

[SensFan]

Okay well Nat's not in this game so I don't see how he's relevant.

Are you serious? You told me it was scummy to pressure someone based on policy. I showed a perfect example of it happening.

[SensFan]

Coming in with bias on certain players when the game is random and every player has an equal chance of being scum is not fair to the rest of the town. Then forming a bandwagon on them for crappy reasons is unacceptable and totally scummy, it is not a town thing to do.

And that's just one example.

[SensFan]

The key word that you seem to forgetting here is bias. If we had zwets and Empking in the same game you can lynch them both based on "policy lynching". But if their both town, that's just plain stupid, hence, I think your actions were stupid and scummy.

You're contradicting yourself. Pick the stance you are taking:

*Pressuring zwet for policy reasons is not scummy
**Then shut up about it

*Pressuring zwet for policy reasons is scummy
**Then my example of Nat getting to L-1 on page 3 in a Mini is completely relevant.

[SensFan]

That does nooooooooot at all mean people should do it just because others do it. Basically you're saying because other people do it you should do it too and that makes it acceptable. And zwets may have been spewing random bullshit but you were just spewing regular bullshit.

Let's face it. If going into the game, I knew he would refuse to play, I would absolutely be ready to wagon him to a claim in the first page. He's absolutely useless even as Town, and still has equal chances to be Scum. Seems like a pretty good Day 1 wagon to me.

Why did you join the game if you knew he would be so useless? I did not know but if I did I would have though twice about it.

I do find this rather peculiar; that you would come into a game ready to lynch someone if they didn't meet your expectations that you knew they were likely not to meet before the roles were even given out.

I didn't know he was in this game. I most certainly would have thought long and hard about it had I known, and the only reason I even would have considered staying is because a couple of people that I've never really been able to play with asked me if I would join with them.

[SensFan]

Militant, what's your opinion of what you discussed in post 263?

I relly don't mean to offend you here Sensfan but a little bit silly. To be sure you are going to lynch someone if they behave in a manner you think they will behave in before even they know there alignment is silly in my opinion. I don't think it is productive towards town either. Although I can also see what Sensfan is going on about; if a person does not contribute and is posting bullshit, what are you going to do?

As I outlined above, I didn't know. And you'll notice that, as I've said several times, I gave him more than enough chances to start playing.

[SensFan]

To answer your question SensFan it would be option that putting zwets at L-1 is scummy but here's the thing...Nat isn't relevant because Nat isn't zwets. They are completely different players. You can't possibly say two people play this game the same and the unpredicatability on everybody's part is high.

Its perfectly relevant, and there's no fucking way you even believe the shit you are saying at this point.

[SensFan]

the stunt that was pulled was a catastrophe and that is a fact. We killed our cop, plain and simple as that.

I don't regret doing a damn thing.

[SensFan]

Sens due to his hammer and not providing the reasons why he saw DCJ as scummy.

Whoops, I thought I had done that. Gimme a sec.

[SensFan]

PBPA on DCJ:

Post 0: Makes an 'I'm Town' reference (scummy)
Post 1: Doesn't random vote (very scummy)
Post 2: random votes BSW for 'trolling', when zwet has been trolling, and BSW hasn't done anything (slightly scummy)
Post 3: Comments on '3 people with 2 votes' (null)
Post 4: Misunderstands Zaz's question (null)
Post 5: Still misunderstands the question (null)
Post 6a: Claims that people on MS are too serious (summy)
Post 6b: Implies no one is vote-worthy, when he has a vote on BSW (very scummy)
Post 7: Votes zwet because "we have to lynch someone" (ridiculously scummy)
Post 8a: Says he wants to lynch zwet, then if he flips Town, go after people who wagoned zwet (ridiculously scummy)
Post 8b: Calls the back-and-forth between (presumably?) zwet and I "childish arguing," claims he's voting to avoid being "stuck on Day 1 forever." (slightly scummy)
Post 8c: Calls his vote on zwet fucking RANDOM (ridiculously scummy)
Post 9: Argues that he's not going to adapt his way of playing, even know he knows MS is different from 'where he's from'. (slightly scummy)

The kicker for me was definatively 8c.

[SensFan]

You'll notice I said 3, 4, 5 are null.
You'll then notice I said 2, 9 are slightly scummy.
You'll then learn than 'I'm Town!' posts are scummy.
You'll then be told that I consider truly random voting (not nor random voting) just about the scummiest thing someone can do.

[SensFan]

And I don't care if you consider not random voting or whatever you mean (because that last point you stated totally does not make sense, not nor random voting?) because not random voting isn't scummy so that was a ridiculous reason to vote for someone.

So the fact you and I disagree on what is scummy is reason for you to call my post 'ridiculous'?

For fuck's sake, I've talked in MD about how and why random voting, or not voting at the beginning of the game, is very scummy to me.

Note: Random voting is not to be confused with 'random' voting; the latter is perfectly fine.

[SensFan]

And I don't care if you consider not random voting or whatever you mean (because that last point you stated totally does not make sense, not nor random voting?) because not random voting isn't scummy so that was a ridiculous reason to vote for someone.

So the fact you and I disagree on what is scummy is reason for you to call my post 'ridiculous'?

For fuck's sake, I've talked in MD about how and why random voting, or not voting at the beginning of the game, is very scummy to me.

Note: Random voting is not to be confused with 'random' voting; the latter is perfectly fine.

Okay well what is your definition of random v. 'random'. And I don't see you talking in this game about why not random voting is scummy. So why is it? And Empking do not answer for him I know your opinion of why and it sucks so I'm not asking you I'm asking SensFan.

Random is just that, random. Recided by a die roll, or random.org.
'Random' votes are if I, for example, post "Vote: KMD for having a dumb avatar."

Do you really not see why the former is scummy, while the latter isn't?

[SensFan]

Okay well I thought you meant random being truly random which it is and 'random' meaning they say it's random but it's really not and they have a personal reason for doing it or something which is apparently not what you mean. How do you know somebody is deciding by a di roll though or if they truly mean that they're voting somebody for having a dumb avatar? You don't. I can see why you think it's scummy, I on the other hand find it silly and frivolous.

Because half the time people will go

Original Roll String: 1d11

1 11-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[SensFan]

Vote: [Player 6]

Or else will say "Random.org told me to

Vote: [Player]

.

It's scummy because Town know their own alignment. Scum have to make a conscious decision whether or not to vote their buddies, which can easily come back to haunt them.

[SensFan]

we killed our cop when we lynched zwets.

Pssst...Town didn't 'lynch' or 'kill' zwet...Or did you mean that you killed him at Night?

And because you keep bringing it up, maybe this will get the message through...

THE FACT THAT ZWET WAS THE COP HAS NO BEARING ON THE SOUNDNESS OF THE BANDWAGON ON HIM.

HET FEIT DAT ZWET COP WAS HEEFT GEEN INVLOED OP DE GEFUNDEERDHEID VAN DE MUZIEKWAGEN OP HEM.

LE FAIT QUE ZWET ÉTAIT LA CANNETTE DE FIL A LE NON PORTANT SUR LA SOLIDITÉ DU MOUVEMENT SUR LUI.

DIE TATSACHE, DASS ZWET DIE SPINDEL WAR, HAT NR. MIT NACHDRUCK AUF DIE STICHHALTIGKEIT DES FAHRENDEN WAGENS AUF IHM.

ΤΟ ΓΕΓΟΝΟΣ ΟΤΙ ZWET ΉΤΑΝ Η ΣΠΌΛΑ ΔΕΝ ΈΧΕΙ ΚΑΜΊΑ ΣΧΈΣΗ ΣΤΗΝ ΥΓΕΊΑ ΤΗΣ ΜΌΔΑΣ ΣΕ ΤΟΝ.

IL FATTO CHE ZWET ERA LA SPOLA HA NO RIGUARDANTE LA SOLIDITÀ DEL CARRO SU LUI.

ZWETが警察官だったという事実は彼の楽隊車の安定度に関係ない。

ФАКТ ЧТО ZWET БЫЛО ПОЛИСМЕНОМ НЕ ИМЕЕТ НИКАКОЙ ПОДШИПНИК НА ЗДРАВОСТИ ГРУЗОВИКА С ОРКЕСТРОМ НА ЕМ.

EL HECHO DE QUE ZWET FUERA EL POLI TIENE NO CONCERNIENTE LA VALIDEZ DEL CARRO DE LA BANDA DE MÚSICA EN ÉL.

*Note: Only the first sentence (English, in Dark Red) should be taken as an official statement. The other sentences are translations of the first, using BabelFish, in the hops you will understand one of them.*

[SensFan]

Wow SensFan that was completely unneccessary. I don't think the bandwagon on him was sound whatsoever, that's all I've been saying and that's my standpoint on that issue obviously. You freaking out on me isn't going to change that.

The only things you've brought up to back up that argument are (a) 'his meta said he was pro-Town' and (b) 'you killed our Cop'

(a) Show me fucking games where he was Scum and played even half-decently
(b) Respond to "The fact he was Cop means shit all"
OR (c) Shut up about the zwet wagon being scummy

[SensFan]

Answer my post, hewitt. It was posted before the one you quoted, and you seem to have conviniently ignored it.

[SensFan]

At this point I've decided it's over with and my opinion is known so that's pretty much all I care about. I don't think you're a very smart player and you were playing with a personal vendetta against zwets. I don't think that was a clever move and it ended with a bad result, again, obviously.

Sorry, but I consider myself quite the 'smart player', and I have no 'vendetta against zwets' whatsoever.

[SensFan]

Mmmhmmm so that's why you said you were going to vote against zwets until he changed his playstyle for you?

That's not a fucking vendetta. That's wanting everyone to pull their fucking weight.

[SensFan]

Pretty sure you're in the second category.

Oh, and for an ironic note, if you flip Town, you will join zwet on my list of players.

[SensFan]

@sens - where am I on your list????

I have three lists:

"People that should be pressured D1 unless they play better than usual"
*For the sake of political correctness, I won't name names

"People that should be looked at D3 if they haven't caught Scum"
*Poor Glork...

"The rest"

[SensFan]

So then where did I go wrong D1 in your opinion SensFan since I'm assuming I'm in that first list of yours.

Your Day 1 play was decent, and not list-worthy. Your play changed DRASTICALLY to anti-Town and anti-Sens RIGHT AFTER I HAMMERED SCUM.

[SensFan]

Well since I'm at L-1 I'm going to throw in that if I do get lynched I would have to urge the rest of the town to get rid of SensFan who would've have now gone after two town players.

For fuck's sake. You never answered my previous post about your 3 options as it pertains to talking about the zwets wagon.
You also seem to have conviniently forgot to mention that zwet wasn't lynched.
You

ALSO

seem to have conveniently forgot to mention that I hammered Scum.

[SensFan]

I think it's very obvious that I'm not an anti-town player,

Which is why you are at Lynch-1...

I'm pro-town

Refer to my and Emp's comments about DCJ's Post 0.

and that hammering would just add another loss for the town.

Refer to my comment on the above portion. Also, some nice Appeal to Emotion. Also, no claim.

[SensFan]

First of all my my play did not change once you hammered SCUM and that is was revealed I was upset after you hammered. I showed I was upset before it was revealed not after.

Right. But my point is that you KNEW he was Scum...

And on top of that you didn't hammer because of the reasons you stated later you hammered out of spite of me.

I hammered because I thought he was Scum, not out of spite for you.

I've stopped talking about the zwets wagon so I obviously picked option c

Oh really? Because 2 posts ago you brought up the fact that if you are hammered, I will supposedly have wagonned 2 pro-Town people...

and the reason why is because the fact is zwets claimed cop and then scum nightkilled him because he turned out to be the cop.

Yep. That's generally what happens when someone claims Cop.

But that wouldn't have happened if he didn't think he was at L-1 and claimed.

I know its a technicality, but he didn't claim at L-1. But sure, he was wagonned to a claim. In case you didn't notice, that happens every day in a game of Mafia. And more often than not, especially Day 1, the wagonee is Town.

So take responsibility for the fact that your actions caused zwets to claim and then in turn scum killed him.

Nope. I take no responsibility for that whatsoever. If he played the fucking game, he wouldn't have had to claim.

And it's not appeal to emotion

Saying 'OH NOES I'M TOWN DONT LYNCH ME PLZ!!!" is Appeal to Emotion.

it's the truth and I haven't been telling anything but it all game

*points to above*

if you want me to claim then fine I'm vanilla.

I support a hewitt lynch.

[SensFan]

Yes you're right in that I did know he was scum but I urged not to hammer

(You're not supposed to admit that you know people are Scum before they die...)

[SensFan]

yet you were arguing the point regarding zwet as lately as yesterday.

Because I still don't think the wagon on him was right, I don't consider zwets a policy lynch and I don't like people who go into a game specifically set on putting a policy lynch on someone. Players like SensFan, Dejkha, etc who do that make me think they don't have their head in the present game.

I didn't 'go into the game' doing it. I saw him on the playerlist, and I'd MUCH rather vote someone with a meta of being useless than vote someone for having a wierd avatar...

[SensFan]

You didn't just vote for him though, you started and encouraged a bandwagon on him. How would you have reacted if people had kept jumping on and just lynched him.

That's sort of what happened...and I had absolutely no problem with it, because he was everything I expected.

[SensFan]

You didn't just vote for him though, you started and encouraged a bandwagon on him. How would you have reacted if people had kept jumping on and just lynched him.

That's sort of what happened...and I had absolutely no problem with it, because he was everything I expected.

Everything you expected? What is that supposed to mean that he was the cop?

No, he was absosultely fucking useless.

[SensFan]

Me jumping down his throat DOES NOT stop him from playing. In fact, it gives him the PERFECT CHANCE to start playing.

[SensFan]

Then what exactly did you want him to do, what did you want him to say that he didn't say because whether you like it or not he was in the game which means he was playing. He may not have been playing the way you'd like him to play but he was playing.

No, he wasn't playing. Look at his first (iirc) 19 posts. How many of those contain anything related to finding Scum? 0.

[SensFan]

Well I've got to hand it to you guys, you're doing a very fine job of town-hunting so far.

The only player we've lynched is fucking Scum. What the fuck are you talking about?

[SensFan]

I actually disagree with the case against hewitt. I don't see why scum would post upset after their partner is lynched. And I've been also a few times sure that someone was town, while everyone else saw that player as scum (see NG 684).

Still thinking this.

Can you, then, maybe explain how the fuck hewitt saw zwets as being Town?

Not to mention that your post completely ignores everything that's happened today. Like the massive Appeal to Emotion.

[SensFan]

I answered that post AGES ago, Zaz. Pay attention.

[SensFan]

Oh, sorry. I thought that you meant that was answering MY question.

[SensFan]

I HAVE read the game zaz. however, re-reading a game is much different than actually being involved in it. if that is the reason you are voting me, then you can just suck it. I bent over backward trying to answer your irrelvant questions, and you come back and say I haven't read the game. that pisses me off.

If someone is about to be hammered and you disagree with it, I expect you to be making a case, not sitting back and making sure I review all your comments from AGES ago. and since it is from AGES ago, I expect a relevant answer that is UP TO DATE. now if you still have the same opinion, fine, just say so. don't throw things in my face.

also, I'm not going to hammer when one of the voters is known to be on V/LA and everyone else is mum.

What do you mean by 'everyone else is mum'?

[SensFan]

You seem a bit worried about getting votes.

This.

Town's first priority is lynching Scum. Then not being lynched.
Scum's first priority is not being lynched.

[SensFan]

So far we have 2 confirmed voted for hewitt. that is NOT a majority. If someone else would liek to hammer, be my guest. as for me, I'd like to verify KMD's position.

The pressure to hammer is making me re-think hewitt's scumminess in the first place.

Trust me. If I could hammer, I would. And I'm not sure its fair to say that KMD's vote shouldn't 'count'. I mean, he knew very well he was placing it then leaving on a week-long V/LA.

And I'm not pressuring you to hammer, just the opposite. I find it scummy that you have built up hammering to be this huge thing, and are trying to completely justify it before doing so.

[SensFan]

i just want to be sure of a majority, simple as that.

You think it would be scummy to hammer without the input of everyone on the wagon?

[SensFan]

i just want to be sure of a majority, simple as that.

You think it would be scummy to hammer without the input of everyone on the wagon?

Yes! 100% yes!

Then why the FUCK have you never so much as MENTIONED my quick hammer?

FoS: sekinj

for massive inconsistencies, showing that he's more concerned with looking out for his own skin than looking for what he considers scummy.

[SensFan]

Because you hammered scum of course. If sekinj honesty 100% believed that I was scum then I think she would've hammered a long time ago.

Next time let her answer for her fucking self.

sek, the question remains.

[SensFan]

Damnit, hewitt. That was just dumb. Not even scummy, just dumb.

[SensFan]

Sekinj, I demand that you give the titles of the games you've gotten hewitt's meta from.

He claimed they were ongoing, if I recall. He

CANNOT

name them, if that's the case.

[SensFan]

Unvote

I'm back. I see a deadline coming up. I see Hewitt at L-1. I'm not ready to lynch as I've missed some things. Not sure if he's claimed already.

I'll catch up when I can. Tonight at the earliest.

He claimed Townie.

[SensFan]

Unvote

I'm back. I see a deadline coming up. I see Hewitt at L-1. I'm not ready to lynch as I've missed some things. Not sure if he's claimed already.

I'll catch up when I can. Tonight at the earliest.

He claimed Townie.

Then I will probably revote when I catch up. Remind me why he was scummy.

Hmmmm...a quick summation:

*Bitched about the zwets wagon for far longer than is normal
*Accusing ME personally of having 'caused the death of two town' (meaning him and zwets, even know zwets wasn't lynched and he's not dead or confirmed Town)
*Admitted that he 'knew DCJ was Scum' before the hammer
*Ridiculous Appeal to Emotion

[SensFan]

Just a reminder: At deadline, it takes 3 votes to lynch.

[SensFan]

zaz - I disagree with you.

You disagree with what, exactly?

And honestly, is that really the best you can do? That was a nice post by Zaz, and its a little unnerving that you don't feel like you should answer or defend against any of the point.

[SensFan]

I'll be honest, by this point, sek is looking just as bad as hewitt, if not worse. Seriously, sek, if I could unvote right now, I most definatively would, especially after that emotional claim.

[SensFan]

Yeah, ok. Currently I'm 4 pro-town reads to 2 scummy reads.

Current predictions are 3/6 of these were right. I'm not very good at this.

Did you ever reveal those predictions? You know...given you're supposed to help find Scum, if you're Town...

KMD, wtf?

[SensFan]

Sens, if sekinj was scum then taking a lynch would be a loss. I put her at L-1 and she is still self-voting. And if she was a power role, she'd never accept a lynch to help the town. So claiming a power role would be the nail in her coffin as scum.

Sekinj is town.

I'm nowhere NEAR ready to even go into the WIFOM game you're promoting here.

[SensFan]

Yeah, ok. Currently I'm 4 pro-town reads to 2 scummy reads.

Current predictions are 3/6 of these were right. I'm not very good at this.

Did you ever reveal those predictions? You know...given you're supposed to help find Scum, if you're Town...

That's why I didn't put forward opinions that were inadaquately thought about.

k.

So what's your reads now?

[SensFan]

Isn't not claiming a power role in an open setup where you would immediately be counterclaimed very basic scum play?

Its semi-open. There could in theory not be another Power role.

[SensFan]

Isn't not claiming a power role in an open setup where you would immediately be counterclaimed very basic scum play?

The part that sells it is where she is willing to take a lynch. Only a vanilla townie would do that right now. That's why I asked for a claim. If she had claimed a power role, she was scum. She considers herself a distraction and is willing to take a lynch. It's as simple as that.

You yourself said that no one was online to hammer, and there wasn't really a risk of a hammer that quickly into the Day, anyways. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but you're giving WAY too much credit to a WIFOM argument here, and I don't like it.

[SensFan]

Isn't not claiming a power role in an open setup where you would immediately be counterclaimed very basic scum play?

The part that sells it is where she is willing to take a lynch. Only a vanilla townie would do that right now. That's why I asked for a claim. If she had claimed a power role, she was scum. She considers herself a distraction and is willing to take a lynch. It's as simple as that.

You yourself said that no one was online to hammer, and there wasn't really a risk of a hammer that quickly into the Day, anyways. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but you're giving WAY too much credit to a WIFOM argument here, and I don't like it.

Why would Sekinj, as scum, be that confident that no one would hammer. I looked like I was going to keep my vote and surely you'd have been willing to hammer based on the way Day 1 ended and your actions yesterday.

Is there something wrong with WIFOM?

Because it would be literally stupid to hammer a couple of hours into what will be (iirc) a 10-day long Day, at least.

And yes, when its this blatant. Now if Scum is ever backed in a corner, they can vote themselves, claim they want to be lynched 'for the cause', and you've set a precedent of unvoting them and calling them Town.

[SensFan]

if you are so sure you should vote for me, sens

Flawed logic and one-line posts aren't helping your case.

[SensFan]

My case that you shoud lynch me? I thought they would be perfect for that....

Vote: sek

I've had enough of this bullshit.

[SensFan]

I'm still here, and in no way want a self-voter alive in LyLo. sek NEEDS to be lynched.

[SensFan]

I'm not going to apologizw for voting the guy that was self-voting.

[SensFan]

To clarify, were you voting him because you thought he was scum?

Partly, yes. I also didn't want someone that unstable alive in LyLo, if they are Town.

[SensFan]

To clarify, were you voting him because you thought he was scum?

Partly, yes. I also didn't want someone that unstable alive in LyLo, if they are Town.

Fair enough, long as you're owning up to the fact that if you mislynch someone, it's your fault and not theirs.

Not only was he lynched, but he was on the wagon.

It was a classic example of very poor play, something this game has had way too much of, unfortunately.

[SensFan]

To clarify, were you voting him because you thought he was scum?

Partly, yes. I also didn't want someone that unstable alive in LyLo, if they are Town.

Fair enough, long as you're owning up to the fact that if you mislynch someone, it's your fault and not theirs.

Not only was he lynched, but he was on the wagon.

It was a classic example of very poor play, something this game has had way too much of, unfortunately.

if you are saying there that lynching him was poor play, I entirely agree.

(I know this is not what you are saying)

I appreciate he was playing badly, but that is no reason at all to lynch him except in extremely rare circumstances. I think it's also incredibly scummy, because it basically it's an ironclad argument for being blameless for a mislynch, if you can put the blame for running up someone on the lynchee, instead of recognising it as your own inability to read someone who was playing in a non-standard fashion.

This doesn't mean he didn't play badly, he undisputedly did, and in the post game, I'd take a serious look at that day in particular if I were him. And it doesn't mean that you necessarily played badly. If you had an argument in favour of him being scum that you believed in, fair enough, we all make mistakes once in a while, and they are what we learn from, but it *was* your fault, just as my misread of Zazie was my fault.

Of course there was reason to believe he was Scum. The REASON he went crazy D3 is because of the end of D2, when he was ridiculously scummy, and EVERYONE called him on it.

[SensFan]

Unvote, Vote: Primate

[SensFan]

I swear, if Hewitt so much as TRIES to claim he's justified and that the wagon on zwets was scummy...

[SensFan]

I knew you were scum... I was so positive. That's why I tried the exact same gambit as scum by hammering my buddy day 1 in another game.

The wagon on you had nothing to do with me being scum.
It had to do with the fact that 95% of the site finds you so terrible they don't want to play with you.

[SensFan]

I think your insult was uncalled for.

What about the 11-page thread in MD?

[SensFan]

I swear, if Hewitt so much as TRIES to claim he's justified and that the wagon on zwets was scummy...

No, Hewitt, you weren't right.