Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[Xdaamno]

Yo!

Vote: BSG

[Xdaamno]

Hey all.

Vote: Artifex

for copying the first three letters of my name and for pouncing on an easy target.

An

easy target

?

[Xdaamno]

It's cause you suck xd, like in the scumchat days =P.

Even if I

did

suck, I'm already mod-confirmed.

Alive (12) - Bold is confirmed
...
Xdaamno

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP: My name should be bolded.

Hey all.

Vote: Artifex

for copying the first three letters of my name and for pouncing on an easy target.

An

easy target

?

A player who puts somebody at three votes when everybody else has at most one is an easy target.

I also happen to live in Bolton, while (assumingly) other players in this game do not. Does this also mean I am scum?

If you're going to claim a correlation between putting players at L-4 in the random voting stage and chance of being scum, I'll need to hear some justification.

[Xdaamno]

Fos Artem. I think you could actually be scum. Bringing a RVS wagon to three votes is scummy? That's some imagination. I'd vote for you but Panzer has already been caught.

Are you actually defeating your own argument with a counterclaim of "but it's under Panzer's name"? Surely one oughtn't use ones fos so lightly, neh?

The only possible way I can conceive of a player not realising that was a joke would be if said player was looking for reasons to attack people.

IGMEOY.

[Xdaamno]

Fos Artem. I think you could actually be scum. Bringing a RVS wagon to three votes is scummy? That's some imagination. I'd vote for you but Panzer has already been caught.

If you're going to claim a correlation between putting players at L-4 in the random voting stage and chance of being scum, I'll need to hear some justification.

I'm not the one voting for Xdaamno. What makes you think I'm calling 3 votes/L-4 scummy?

My mistake. I always assume there's something fishy about cats.

[Xdaamno]

My mistake. I always assume there's something fishy about cats.

No... You had it right.

On a re-read, it was clear Artem was joking. These are the two posts in question:

Hey all.

Vote: Artifex

for copying the first three letters of my name and for pouncing on an easy target.

Hey all.

Vote: Artifex

for copying the first three letters of my name and for pouncing on an easy target.

An

easy target

?

A player who puts somebody at three votes when everybody else has at most one is an easy target.

[Xdaamno]

Hmm... player-by-player analyses are good for content and poor for scumhunting

Xdaamno: disappeared afterrandom stage. scummish. Due to when he disappeared. Hasn't made many if any relevent post.

Yeah, yeah, I'll try and post more. Can you pinpoint 'scumish'?

[Xdaamno]

The original attack on Artem was obvious BS, but I'm surprised Artem needed me to point that out for him.

After a re-read, it's a good lynch right now.

Vote: Artem

[Xdaamno]

Saved by a rule that I hate... I'm not going to complain.

I didn't know that was a hammer. Let me re-read to see how the hell we got to L-1 on page 5.

[Xdaamno]

(Did anyone actually think my answer to that question would have been "Yes"? If you're going to attack me for the hammer do so for a "lying" read, rather than the "opportunistic" nature of the vote itself.)

[Xdaamno]

You haven't been paying to much attention to this game have you?

I have, actually. I just find it difficult to get back into posting after having missed a few days. The slip-up was only due to me forgetting the votecount; nobody actually mentioned their votes put Artem at L-1.

[Xdaamno]

Xdaamo, why did you say Artem would be a good lynch, then you were "saved" when her lynch didn't actually occur? Why the backpedal? And why did you say you reread when you voted, and then in your next post say you need to reread? And how did you miss it being L-1 with a votecount at the top of the page?

That's unusual. Interrogating, when the answers to all of those questions should be obvious to anyone who's done a moment's thought. This is a real, general "trying to look helpful" scum vibe.

Unvote, Vote: charter

[Xdaamno]

Also,

Unvote, Vote:Xdaamno

He hastily jumped on the Artem wagon with no analysis or evidence of his own(For the hammer vote nonetheless). He's contributed nothing to the active scumhunting and given no case for any of his votes. Just shown little activity, but is still obviously here.

It was a pressure vote, actually. I also call bullshit on "contributed nothing" and "given no case".

Grasping.

Danchao, I

dearly

hope you're not voting me for the same reasons. If it's just "vibes", please try and pinpoint the post you got them from.

[Xdaamno]

You HAVE contributed nothing. Most of your 14 game post have been less then 3 lines and most of those have been completely either exetremely defensivve post that don't add anything to the discussion or completely contentless all together.

Unvote, Vote Xdaamno

Mafia makes me mad. I think this argument is fallacious enough for me to have to actually waste time rebutting it.

And yet I will anyway, since I'm aware people would call me out on that.

*glare*

First off, 14 not a low number

188 / 12 = 15.66
188 / 13 = 14.46...

Secondly, I have made it clear I find it difficult to get back into a discussion when I'm not already involved. When people attack me, I am

automatically involved

.

Thirdly, every single one of my posts outside the random voting stage has been entirely relevant. Can you give an example of what you mean by "completely contentless all together", Panzer?

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP:

Mafia makes me mad. I think this argument is fallacious enough for me to

not

have to actually waste time rebutting it.

[Xdaamno]

Sarnath'd the evidence to you, BSG.

[Xdaamno]

I also got the wrong impression like Charter about your 'saved' comment and I'm also wondering how you could miss the VC. Perhaps it's not that easy to understand, as we're not as great as you ( ), so can you please answer the questions from post 152?

Am I really coming across that elitist?

And AFTER that, can anyone who has ever considered using such a role or seen such a role know if the event action would be given in the role pm of a mini-normal, or could give a rough idea of how likely such a role is to appear in a mini-normal.

I've been in a mini normal with one before, she claimed after she replaced in day one too. Let me just say we had some WIERD roles in that game too...

Xdaamo, why did you say Artem would be a good lynch, then you were "saved" when her lynch didn't actually occur? Why the backpedal? And why did you say you reread when you voted, and then in your next post say you need to reread? And how did you miss it being L-1 with a votecount at the top of the page?

I already answered these questions, BSG.

Thought I had made the answers clear, but I guess I never finished posting it for some reason.

I said I was "saved", because I was saved from having accidentally lynched Artem.

I first said I would re-read Artem's case, then said I would re-read something entirely different.

I didn't actually "miss" the votecount, of course - I just posted that post probably two days after "reading" it, and I wasn't looking at it at the time.

[Xdaamno]

As already mentioned, there was a VC on top of the page where you 'voted' Artem. Strange that you didn't pay much attention towards the VC when you wanted to apply pressure, not?

Uh, I don't think so, especially because my Artem vote was also for pressure.

[Xdaamno]

I assume that you are saying that I have to give evidence that you aren't giving any cases.

Fos Artem. I think you could actually be scum. Bringing a RVS wagon to three votes is scummy? That's some imagination. I'd vote for you but Panzer has already been caught.

Are you actually defeating your own argument with a counterclaim of "but it's under Panzer's name"? Surely one oughtn't use ones fos so lightly, neh?

The only possible way I can conceive of a player not realising that was a joke would be if said player was looking for reasons to attack people.

IGMEOY.

Xdaamo, why did you say Artem would be a good lynch, then you were "saved" when her lynch didn't actually occur? Why the backpedal? And why did you say you reread when you voted, and then in your next post say you need to reread? And how did you miss it being L-1 with a votecount at the top of the page?

That's unusual. Interrogating, when the answers to all of those questions should be obvious to anyone who's done a moment's thought. This is a real, general "trying to look helpful" scum vibe.

Unvote, Vote: charter

Of your now 16 posts, these two were the only one which I could find in which you attack a player. As you didn't continue with the first attack, it means nothing to me. And the second is based upon a vibe. I don't really call those cases.
You're part right about your contribution. Some posts of yours have responded to discussion, but not all of them. This includes some posts after your 'vote'. But as said, I was more interested in the cases.
Can you show your evidence? Because I'm not a fan of reflecting questions before answering.

I admit many of my posts have been speculation. Distancing myself from 'the main scum hunt' is something I do actively.

When I get irritated, I post sometimes sarcastic things. One example is what you just quoted, Xdn. I just got the feeling that you saw as 'weaker' as you said that those answers should be obvious. But I didn't know them, and apparently Charter didn't as well. I hate it when players act like everyone should know.
Also, did the quote went wrong in post 192?

Yeah, the quote went wrong. I'm also way too pissy when I imply things are 'obvious' :/

I said I was "saved", because I was saved from having accidentally lynched Artem.

This quote bothers me. It's just strange to say that you were saved before the flip.

I still find it strange that you didn't check it before you voted. And can you also explain post 193. I don't get the 'also' in it.

I assumed we would not be at L-1 at this stage of the game, and it's likely I was in a rush.

The "also" means that the vote was both for pressure, and an indication I was suspiscious of Artem. Only the latter would be justification for a hammer vote, and I certainly didn't believe it had got to that stage.

My suspiscions on Artem are suspisciously vibe-ish, I agree. I'm a huge proponent of trying to explain vibes rather than pass them off as gut, so my Artem vibes might well have been baseless (yes, I can't remember what they were about).

[Xdaamno]

Damn. If Xda is telling the truth, then I was wrong in my assumption of his being 'saved'. I'll not answer questions on another's behalf again.

Also, BSG, where's that FoS coming from? Any reason you'd like to point out or you just doing it cuz you can?

Ah, you thought I meant "grrr, Artem, foiled again"? I guess it kind of looked that way.

The "telling the truth" part is redundant. I'm in the business of making myself look town in either alignment. If I actually thought I wanted to lynch Artem but wanted to let you guys know I didn't want to lynch Artem, there's no reason I'd hide my personal message in my own post.

/waiting for someone to call WIFOM

[Xdaamno]

Xdaamno, care to give a little more insight as to why you view charter as most scummy?

I never said I did so, though I still might do so (might=/=probably); that language irks me. I'm not saying it's a scum tell, but "who do you think is scum" and "who do you think is the most scummy" is the mafia version of a false dichotomy.

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP:

Xdaamno, care to give a little more insight as to why you view charter as most scummy?

I never said I did, though I still might do so (might=/=probably). That language irks me. I'm not saying it's a scum tell, but "who do you think is scum" and "who do you think is the most scummy" are the mafia versions of a false dichotomy.

Fixed the weird grammar.

[Xdaamno]

Incorrect wording on my part. I'll give you that. How about why do you think he's

scummy enough

to place your vote on him?

Hm, the wording still isn't perfect!

Like I said, the vote was part vibes (urgh) and part pressure. You imply a 'vote' is somehow a declaration of "I think this guy is scummy".

[Xdaamno]

I do imply such a declaration at this stage of the game. For me, pressure votes are utilized more effectively earlier in the game. And to point out it's use for pressure basically nullifies its use for said pressure. Basing votes purely off vibes is pretty impractical.

I absolutely disagree; pressure votes are useful at any stage - and of course pressure votes are useless after being pointed out, I left it until a whole few pages had passed until I showed my hand. I agree that basing votes purely off vibes is

very

impractical.

Perhaps this is a cop-out on my part. The vote wasn't significant to me, so trying to justify it may be fruitless. Either way, I believe we're discussing methodology, not scum hunting.

Also, didn't you say that while he was pressing you his questions came off scummy. Does that not make him somewhat scummy to you? You're practically taking away any Value from your vote at this point.

You're saying... I thought he was scummy, therefore he was somewhat scummy to me? Yes. That may not apply now, I'd need to look over his - and my - posts. Also, the last sentence is incorrect, as I have clearly stated why I voted (pressure, ugly vibes, insignificance lowering the bar anyhow).

Also, ergh... I hate using capitals on a letter superfluously, it makes it sound like we're dealing with some kind of currency here.

[Xdaamno]

I'm still not digging Xd's explanation for the Artem thing, and so if I don't involve you directly in the questions you're not gonna weigh in? Assume every question I ask I want your opinion on unless I state otherwise.

No, I'm naturally less interested when I'm not involved, as I said. What about the 'Artem thing' do you not dig?

[Xdaamno]

I absolutely disagree; pressure votes are useful at any stage - and of course pressure votes are useless after being pointed out, I left it until a whole few pages had passed until I showed my hand. I agree that basing votes purely off vibes is very impractical.

So, what were you pressuring me to do? Roleclaim?

Well, I didn't have anything in mind. If we knew what was on Mars, we wouldn't need to send probes there.

Also, ergh... I hate using capitals on a letter superfluously, it makes it sound like we're dealing with some kind of currency here.

Urgh indeed. You know how you were asking about that elitist thing earlier? This is a classic example of that, BTW. I'm not even saying I disagree with you, but I dont think Id ever point it out, knowing that I too am subject to the occasional grammatical quirk.

*shrug*

I'm not doing anything intentionally, it's just something that bugs me.

[Xdaamno]

Well, I didn't have anything in mind. If we knew what was on Mars, we wouldn't need to send probes there.

Would you like to share with us what your probe found on planet Artem? After all, you need to justify the future funding of the project "probe".

I lost interest. I'll go look back at the reactions sometime.

[Xdaamno]

I think they're poor and indicative of scum. The fact that his wagon didn't balloon after an attempted speedhammer also makes me question why more people aren't voting him.

Bull. Can you show me a point you (or anyone else) have made that I have failed to show does not make me scum?

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP: Poorly worded, but I think you see what I'm saying.

[Xdaamno]

-still waiting for this stealth bandwagon to give some evidence-

[Xdaamno]

I figured I'd take the time to look at Xd's posts to see if this wagon is unfounded or not. After doing so,

I don't have any reason to disagree with it.

There was a large week-long gap between posts, the first after the gap saying he'll post more and the post after being the would-be lynch. Arguments have been made against him and he has either barely defended, poorly defended or not bothered to defend against by saying he has lost interest.

I'll respond to charter tommorow.

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP: I haven't ever barely defended, poorly defended or not bothered to defend myself, ever, to my knowledge.

[Xdaamno]

OK, I certainly admit to that. I'm being lazy, in that I'm going for the easy arguments to make (that is, those for which I know the ultimate answer beforehand). I'm still slacking at my second job. Several of your points, such as the below, fall under this general area. If you're going to be analyzing me, we should stick to my alignment.

In 208 Xda admits he cant remember where his original 'vibes' off of Artem came from and that he'd have to do a re-read. Color me skeptical that this will happen at this point...

[Xdaamno]

Still, as scummy as it sounds for me to say it, I don't actually have anything else to add to the Xdaamno case.

Charter especially, as well as panzer, lynx and artifex now have all made quite clear what you have done and any more dodging will not make you look any better.

Perhaps

you should start being a bit more direct with questions asked against you. Actually,

maybe

we should ask you what you think of the other players now and see if you make any attempt to answer. You're at L-1 now anyway, so if you're going to be lynched it's best we at least hear who you think is scum and who's not.

My scumdar is beeping again.

I'll do a direct Q&A post tommorow, mark my words! I'll lynch myself, otherwise.

[Xdaamno]

I think they're poor and indicative of scum. The fact that his wagon didn't balloon after an attempted speedhammer also makes me question why more people aren't voting him.

Bull. Can you show me a point you (or anyone else) have made that I have failed to show does not make me scum?

Not bull.

For the second time, could you please provide a reference?

Xdaamo, why did you say Artem would be a good lynch, then you were "saved" when her lynch didn't actually occur? Why the backpedal? And why did you say you reread when you voted, and then in your next post say you need to reread? And how did you miss it being L-1 with a votecount at the top of the page?

That's unusual. Interrogating, when the answers to all of those questions should be obvious to anyone who's done a moment's thought. This is a real, general "trying to look helpful" scum vibe.

Unvote, Vote: charter

I ask you legitamate questions, and you blow them off and OMGUS vote me. It's not even OMGUS, it's just a TERRIBLE vote you throw down. NONE of the answers there were remotely obvious. What is obvious is that your overreacting and refusal to answer is incredibly scummy of you. When you finally did give answers, they were bad.

You've never explained why you hammered and wanted an Artem lynch, then flipped around once Artem claimed.

The answers were all

very

obvious. Please show how my answers were 'bad'.

Also, I thought I had already made it clear I did not want an Artem lynch. My vote was (primarily) a pressure vote.

Also,

As already mentioned, there was a VC on top of the page where you 'voted' Artem. Strange that you didn't pay much attention towards the VC when you wanted to apply pressure, not?

Uh, I don't think so, especially because my Artem vote was also for pressure.

Adding reasosn for your vote after it's way too late, in an attempt to make it seem like you didn't mean the lynch. In your hammer post, you clearly did want the lynch then. The story changing and flip flopping is scummy.

Either that, or I was

telling the truth

. You have proposed an alternate scenario in which I hammered someone

on purpose

and let the town know as such, then did not rectify my 'mistake' when my vote was not counted. You have not explained why this scenario is more plausable than the status quo. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, we should assume it's a duck. You're eerily reminiscient of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

I admit many of my posts have been speculation. Distancing myself from 'the main scum hunt' is something I do actively.

Scummy as well.

You try and change your reasons some more again later. None of the excuses fly because you said you wanted an Artem lynch. Not Artem pressure, not because you were suspicious of Artem.

As I said above, your logic is circular. If I was scum I would be doing as you said (which is an implausable scenario, but I'll be generous and say it's neutral) and if I was town I'd be doing what I had said. What makes one scenario more likely than the other? It's certainly not because you have a kink for stating fallacy as fact.

You said "story changing and flip flopping is scummy". This is also circular logic; see above. I was only flip-flopping if I was

scum in the first place

.

I figured I'd take the time to look at Xd's posts to see if this wagon is unfounded or not.

After doing so, I don't have any reason to disagree with it.

There was a large week-long gap between posts, the first after the gap saying he'll post more and the post after being the would-be lynch. Arguments have been made against him and he has either barely defended, poorly defended or not bothered to defend against by saying he has lost interest.

As I mentioned, this post is very fallacious. We should not agree with a wagon because we have no reason to disagree with it. Please provide references for my 'poorly defended' (or etc) points, then explain why that makes me scum rather than a poor scumhunter.

I'm gonna

Vote: Xdaamno

and make it

very

that this puts Xd at L-1, so nobody else vote him yet. I'll unvote if people want to feel more safe and discuss more, but as far as I can see with his lack of scum hunting and the potential hammer,

discussion is essentially

over and unless anyone disagrees Xda should claim.

This is a very,

very

anti-town manuoever, but it may be poor methodology.

On a re-read, it seems the most likely scenario was a combination of a scum's mindset to rush a lynch and poor methodology in general; a town player would not be in a mindset to say such a thing in the first place.

EBWOP: seems OMGUSy of Xd to throw that back at me.

Gross misunderstanding of the OMGUS scumtell.

I admit many of my posts have been speculation. Distancing myself from 'the main scum hunt' is something I do actively.

Self explanatory, thanks to BSG, and Lowell sums it up surprisingly well with his pbp post. I feel confidant with my post.

I'm still not sure how your gripe with my methodology self-explanatorarily (great phrase) indicates me as scum. Can you clarify?

@Xdaamo, do not claim until after you've defended yourself (in case it wasn't obvious)

Yep. This bandwagon is unfounded anyway, and I don't believe it's strong enough to warrant a claim.

@Xda- Okay, it will actually be easier to do as you ask me to- analyze your alignment- if you follow through and post some results on scumhunting, so I'll be waiting.

What "results" are you expecting? I suggested that I would address my bandwagon, which is easy as I know the ultimate question of my alignment anyway. Scumhunting is something I do not wish to do by request.

Ok, I'll stay. I'm still keeping my vote on Xda for now, at least until he expresses some opinions on other players that are scummy instead of some form of defense.

Please justify how my defense instead of offense makes me scum. This is the second time you've played the 'self-explanatory' card, so I'll assume you have no idea what you're talking about yourself unless you address this remark.

Where did 254 come from? Seriously.

I was just about to add MR to my town list. Scratch that.

You have it backwards. I would argue his flimsy, fallacious reasoning is more indicative of scum than his jumping at the slightest attack.

After reading my own post I agree with you, except I was about to vote him regardless.

Vote: Master Ruck

I had directed questions to both charter and Master Ruck. I will be following these up if no response is given.

[Xdaamno]

*EBWOP: Have.

[Xdaamno]

Unvote, Vote: Master Ruck

[Xdaamno]

Happy with an Xdaamo lynch if he's going to continue saying the answers were obvious, when the only obvious thing is that they were confusing (as is shown in the thread)

What the

heck

? The only time I said the answers to those questions were obvious in my post is when I had already answered them. I believe I specifically asked you to

challenge

those answers if you did not believe they were correct. If you are going to claim the answers are confusing, please state

why

, just as I did.

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP: A spelling mistake or two.

Happy with an Xdaamo lynch if he's going to continue saying the answers were obvious, when the only obvious thing is that they were confusing (as is shown in the thread)

What the

heck

? The only time I said the answers to those questions were obvious in my post was when I had already answered them. I believe I specifically asked you to

challenge

those answers if you did not believe they were correct. If you are going to claim the answers are confusing, please state

why

you believe so, just as I did.

Seriously, though? Calling me out for saying the answers were obvious when I had already explained them, then calling my answers "confusing" without doing the same thing? Hypocrite.

[Xdaamno]

Double EBWOP: Also, it's clear you didn't read half of that post. For the third time, I would like you to answer my questions (and perhaps address each point).

[Xdaamno]

You to make things clear, charter, you are implying I tried to make it look like an accidental lynch?

Also, here are the questions in my post make things clear:

I think they're poor and indicative of scum. The fact that his wagon didn't balloon after an attempted speedhammer also makes me question why more people aren't voting him.

Bull. Can you show me a point you (or anyone else) have made that I have failed to show does not make me scum?

Not bull.

For the second time, could you please provide a reference?

By this, I meant "show me the answers that are poor and indicative of scum".

Also,

As already mentioned, there was a VC on top of the page where you 'voted' Artem. Strange that you didn't pay much attention towards the VC when you wanted to apply pressure, not?

Uh, I don't think so, especially because my Artem vote was also for pressure.

Adding reasosn for your vote after it's way too late, in an attempt to make it seem like you didn't mean the lynch. In your hammer post, you clearly did want the lynch then. The story changing and flip flopping is scummy.

Either that, or I was

telling the truth

. You have proposed an alternate scenario in which I hammered someone

on purpose

and let the town know as such, then did not rectify my 'mistake' when my vote was not counted. You have not explained why this scenario is more plausable than the status quo. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, we should assume it's a duck. You're eerily reminiscient of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

I admit many of my posts have been speculation. Distancing myself from 'the main scum hunt' is something I do actively.

Scummy as well.

You try and change your reasons some more again later. None of the excuses fly because you said you wanted an Artem lynch. Not Artem pressure, not because you were suspicious of Artem.

As I said above, your logic is circular. If I was scum I would be doing as you said (which is an implausable scenario, but I'll be generous and say it's neutral) and if I was town I'd be doing what I had said. What makes one scenario more likely than the other? It's certainly not because you have a kink for stating fallacy as fact.

You said "story changing and flip flopping is scummy". This is also circular logic; see above. I was only flip-flopping if I was

scum in the first place

.[/quote]

Here, I asked "what makes one scenario more like than the other"? This was rhetorical, but if your argument is not completely invalid you must have an answer for this, or you must point out the question is flawed.

[Xdaamno]

Just

to make things clear, charter, you are implying I tried to make it look like an accidental lynch?

Fix'ed.

[Xdaamno]

The original attack on Artem was obvious BS, but I'm surprised Artem needed me to point that out for him.

After a re-read,

it's a good lynch right now.

Also, I thought I had already made it clear

I did not want an Artem lynch

. My vote was (primarily) a pressure vote.

So, it was a good lynch but you didn't want it? How does that work?

Heh, this kind of reminds me of one of Adel's links I read today:

http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2008/0 ... obabil.php

"Good lynch" was ambigious, apologies for that. I did not mean I 'wanted an Artem lynch', but rather 'I would lynch Artem if I had to pick someone'.

ok lynx i re-read the thread agian this time a lil more objectively and figure i was wrong.

so

unvote

the more i read xdaamo the more i see what you guys are talkin about.

@xdaamo it seems as if you are talkin in circles and your logic is hard for me to follow.

That's an argument from ignorance, at best; if you do not understand my logic, please give me a reference and I will explain my logic for you. I don't know what you mean by "talkin in circles" - could you give a reference for this, too?

Just to make things clear, charter, you are implying I tried to make it look like an accidental lynch?

No. You said you wanted an Artem lynch when you cast the vote. Now you're saying you voted for pressure. You're changing your story.

As I said above, your logic is circular. If I was scum I would be doing as you said (which is an implausable scenario, but I'll be generous and say it's neutral) and if I was town I'd be doing what I had said. What makes one scenario more likely than the other? It's certainly not because you have a kink for stating fallacy as fact.

What makes you scum more likely is that I don't see town changing their story (and having a really weak one to begin with). Why would you try and cover up your original reason for voting? I see it much more likely that scum would do that.

Here, I asked "what makes one scenario more like than the other"? This was rhetorical, but if your argument is not completely invalid you must have an answer for this, or you must point out the question is flawed.

Same as above.

Artem is right in 273.

As explained above, you misunderstood my story. This explains why I would "change" my story as town. We go back to the original point (what makes A more likely than B), but weighted a little more towards your side; you are right, and it is now more probable I am scum.

*shrug*

Read the link I gave above, and tell me if you don't get what I mean by "wanting a lynch" being ambigious.

[Xdaamno]

Everyone who finds both Xdaamno & artem suspicious and also thinks that Xdaamno's vote was a failed hammer not a misjudged pressure vote: How does that work exactly?

That would only apply if they were declaring an Xdaamno/Artem scumpair.

[Xdaamno]

The second is a copy/paste of the first... *shrug*

[Xdaamno]

Still want the Xdaamo lynch.

By that, do you mean you want to lynch me or that you would pick me if choosing someone?

[Xdaamno]

I think you're scum, I want to lynch you.

Based on a single statistical point? Or is it vibes/something you haven't mentioned yet?

[Xdaamno]

But who was making you pick anybody? You said I was a good lynch "right now", implying that you were ready to lynch me right that second.

No, no, "right now" was the key phrase; if I had to pick

right now

, I would've picked you.

...and if it was a pressure vote, seeing that you're at L-1, I would like you to address the following:[/quota]

CBA. I place my own happiness above winning. I believe several people have 'forgotten' similar promises.

[Xdaamno]

CBA. I place my own happiness above winning. I believe several people have 'forgotten' similar promises.

Yes, I noted that, but you're sitting at L-1, so we may never hear your analysis.

In case it's not clear, I'm calling bull on the "it was just a pressure vote" argument.

You haven't given motivation, you haven't explained the sudden release of pressure, and you haven't analyzed the results (like you promised you would).

The first two points are the same thing: you... want me to give

justification

for a pressure vote? 0_o

I'll give a player-by-player analysis later today before I self-hammer (so that you guys remember what I say).

[Xdaamno]

I'll give a player-by-player analysis later today

before I self-hammer

(so that you guys remember what I say).

Uh huh, because that is really the best thing for town right now, huh.

I'm saying that the certainty my final words being right there and in recent memory when you guys start the next day is more valuable than the slim chance we lynch somebody else. Do you disagree?

[Xdaamno]

And Ruck's hopping on and off of the Xda train has definitely raised my eyebrows- I can't help but notice that the candidate you took to L-1 last time is now on his way again without you even having to cast a vote.

Purely a coincidence, my dear, I assure you.

I don't know how much water this will hold considering my current erratic, admittedly suspicious voting pattern, but I won't object to xdaamno being lynched either. He's either scum, or a townie that naturally makes himself look this bad. If the latter is the case, he's not doing much to scum hunt his way out of it.

I take offense to 'look this bad'. I believe I have owned up to every single argument I have made that is not solid. I'd also like to point out the case on me is laughable, since I have nothing to lose. Your methodology should be logical, not "vibes" or "I don't get it".

[Xdaamno]

CBA. I place my own happiness above winning. I believe several people have 'forgotten' similar promises.

What would make you unhappy about doing what he's asking you to do? You said you voted him out of pressure, and he wants to know your thoughts on how he acted under that pressure. Looking back over the last few pages, all of your responses of have that CBA tone. Why?

Hmm, tough one. Perhaps I'm telling the truth.

[Xdaamno]

I'll give a player-by-player analysis later today

before I self-hammer

(so that you guys remember what I say).

Uh huh, because that is really the best thing for town right now, huh.

I'm saying that the certainty my final words being right there and in recent memory when you guys start the next day is more valuable than the slim chance we lynch somebody else. Do you disagree?

Yes, because as far as I know a self-hammer is anti-town and not something that should be resorted to.

Circular logic. A hammer is bad because it is "anti-town". Please try again and actually address my point.

And Ruck's hopping on and off of the Xda train has definitely raised my eyebrows- I can't help but notice that the candidate you took to L-1 last time is now on his way again without you even having to cast a vote.

Purely a coincidence, my dear, I assure you.

I don't know how much water this will hold considering my current erratic, admittedly suspicious voting pattern, but I won't object to xdaamno being lynched either. He's either scum, or a townie that naturally makes himself look this bad. If the latter is the case, he's not doing much to scum hunt his way out of it.

I take offense to 'look this bad'. I believe I have owned up to every single argument I have made that is not solid. I'd also like to point out the case on me is laughable, since I have nothing to lose. Your methodology should be logical, not "vibes" or "I don't get it".

You take offence? If you're town, you have 6 votes on you and a hammer soon on its way, and you don't think you look that bad?

Of course I look bad. However, you said I "naturally make myself look bad". Those are two entirely different things. Scum, misunderstandings, bloodthirsty towns, people have bad days and

me

having bad days are five

huge

extra factors that I'm surprised you missed.

Would anyone else run up Panzer before deadline with me? I believe he has a way higher chance of being scum.

Unvote, Vote: Panzer

Though I don't think it'll do much good. I'll self-hammer tommorow if nobody agrees with you.

[Xdaamno]

Is the reason for voting panzer because he is a possible lynch besides yourself? If it's different please tell.

No, that was my reasoning.

[Xdaamno]

Consider the point already addressed. I'm not stopping you from saying your final words, which town could use later if you flip town, but the self-hammer is what I see as bad and your lynch (if it happens today) should be made by another so we can use it later in the game as some sort of clue. If you want your final words to be remembered, then make them convincing. Nothing else is necessary.

Leaving my final words as the last post of the day is a

huge

advantage, and you're trying to claim that it is superfluous? Are you

seriously trying to argue that you guys will remember my argument I made 8 pages ago as much as the one I made yesterday?

That's a nessecity for time to be irrelevant, which is what you are claiming.

Then those are other possibilities, but you've still done nothing to scum-hunt your way out of it.

Not only is that

irrelevant

, it's

not true

. I'm ignoring your arguments from now on, because they're making me annoyed.

[Xdaamno]

Most of what you have done seems to be in defense, which now gives me the impression that you may be a townie, just an angry, prone-to-mistakes townie yet equally likely to be scum tactics. Right now, I don't know which one to believe.

Heh.

I'm

prone to mistakes, he says, just after making a mistake in attacking my methodology and not being man enough to admit it. Go fuck yourself.

[Xdaamno]

Since when did I say I'm not prone to mistakes? I

expect

myself to make mistakes partially due to me being kinda new, but mostly because I almost always make mistakes no matter what the situation I'm in. And...I just said I don't know what to think of you, which means I don't explicitly think you're scum, to which I get a "Go fuck yourself".

OK - I was confused by the implication that "making mistakes" is out of the ordinary.

[Xdaamno]

This is a mistake.

Xda is avoiding lynch by threatening to hammer himself. Not smart.

This is an interesting scenario. Consider the two possible situations:

I am town, and the optimal play is to lynch someone else.

I am scum, and the optimal play is to test me to see if I will hammer myself.

If you actually believe I am scum this is irrelevant to you. If you believe I am town, you will be pushing to lynch someone else. If you wanted me lynched before the "threat", this shouldn't make a difference at all to you.

[Xdaamno]

Xdaamno can you explain why you are voting Panxerjager.

I already have done. I would prefer any member of this game to be lynched before me.

[Xdaamno]

How can you have no opinion on Panzer?

...

[Xdaamno]

Xdaamno, are you gonna just not do your promised player analysis now that a convenient new wagon has formed that could save you today?

First and foremost, stop weasel-wording. It's anti-town and makes you look scummy to anyone paying attention.

Secondly, I will probably not do a pbpa and hammer myself until I believe I will be lynched anyway. I thought I had made this clear. If I'm doing another chunk of work any time soon, it will be looking at Panzer.

[Xdaamno]

Interesting sarnath'd.

[Xdaamno]

How can you have no opinion on Panzer?

...

What? That was obviously directed at Lowell.

Yes, it was just a silly question. When somebody says "no opinion", you seem to interpret that as literal. I believe Lowell knows who Panzer is.

[Xdaamno]

Xdaamno, are you gonna just not do your promised player analysis now that a convenient new wagon has formed that could save you today?

First and foremost, stop weasel-wording. It's anti-town and makes you look scummy to anyone paying attention.

Secondly, I will probably not do a pbpa and hammer myself until I believe I will be lynched anyway. I thought I had made this clear. If I'm doing another chunk of work any time soon, it will be looking at Panzer.

How is it weasel wording? There's still a very good chance you will be lynched as the deadline is drawing near and you are still the lead vote getter I believe. So your player analysis would still be beneficial to the town. I think you just don't want to hold any strong convictions against any players if you live to day 2. Something you've done the entire game.

You already jumped on the Panzer wagon. Don't you think you should have looked at him more closely before you hopped on anyway? Opportunistic scum ready to jump on anybody to save himself before even looking at the player. Scummy? Yes.

This is the definition of weasel wording, by Wikipedia:

Weasel words is an informal term for words that are ambiguous and not supported by facts.

Words like "conveniant" (and perhaps "save") are clearly weasel words. You completely missed the point. I was challenging the way you used terminology to try and incriminate me. You used more weasal phrases in your response: "jumped", "before even looking" and "strong convictions".

Of course a pbpa would be helpful, but I decided it would work well with a self-hammer vote. It's not as useful at this point, and suddenly a Panzer analysis has become

more

useful (though not as fun as knocking down your arguments.)

This is why voting Panzer is an optimal play from myself, a town player's, perspective:

- I felt the situation was either 'Panzer or me', and I still do to an extent.
- The chance of myself being scum is zero.
- The chance of Panzer being scum is greater than zero.

Therefore, I had a greater chance of catching scum by lynching Panzer rather than lynching myself. You said "Don't you think you should have looked at him more closely before you hopped on anyway?", impling my play was not optimal at the time. Can you explain what is wrong with my logic? If so, I will admit I made a mistake.

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP:

"Conveniant" is clearly a weasel word, perhaps along with "save".

You completely missed the point. I was challenging the way you used terminology to try and incriminate me. You used more weasal phrases in your response: "jumped", "before even looking" and "strong convictions".

Fixed - "perhaps" and "clearly" in the same clause 0_o

[Xdaamno]

Forgive me for not knowing the wikipedia definition of "weasel words." But it seems you love to nitpick the phrasing of my sentiments rather than the actual content. You did this a little while back with the terminology. It doesn't help your defense.

That's an utter, unforgivable strawman. I

did

address the content, in more detail than my definition and single paragraph regarding weasal words. However, I felt my mentioned was deserved, as you were using inappropriate tactics to try and incriminate me. To propose that this rebuttal does somehow not help my defense and that I provided no other content in that post is, tbth, insulting.

It's things like this that put me off mafia: you have blatantly ignored the statements and questions I made, instead

repeating what you have already said

. You failed to show why my play regarding the Panzer vote was not optimal, even though I

directly

asked you.

*self-deprecation here*

[Xdaamno]

Yes I know you asked the question. I simply felt my response was sufficient. If you want me to directly say that your play was not optimal then here: Your play was not optimal. Voting someone else simply because you don't know their alignment in order to save yourself is scummy to me. I've felt that you've waited for a case to be built on another player so you could get anything to get attention away from yourself. You haven't been scum hunting yourself which bothers me and is not the best or optimal play for the town.

I thought you might dodge the issue like this. These are the two reasons you gave for why my play is not optimal:

- It was not optimal
- It looked scummy

I'm asking why this play is not optimal from a town's perspective, as you're otherwise using circular logic. Additionally, you seem to mistake my question as "what is not optimal about how I am playing". I asked "what is not optimal about that

particular move

".

For the gazillionth time, try again or admit you were wrong. If you want to have a sure chance of doing it right, look at my post, quote what I said and directly respond as to why my logic was faulty.

[Xdaamno]

This is why voting Panzer is an optimal play from myself, a town player's, perspective:

- I felt the situation was either 'Panzer or me', and I still do to an extent.
- The chance of myself being scum is zero.
- The chance of Panzer being scum is greater than zero.

Therefore, I had a greater chance of catching scum by lynching Panzer rather than lynching myself. You said "Don't you think you should have looked at him more closely before you hopped on anyway?", impling my play was not optimal at the time. Can you explain what is wrong with my logic? If so, I will admit I made a mistake.

The fact that you felt it was only you and Panzer after somebody made a case for you. We still have time. No one else came off scummy to you earlier or before? You saw obviously that Panzer's wagon grew rather quickly. You could have easily presented a candidate who you felt was scummy and a better candidate for a lynch rather than yourself. Instead you hopped on the wagon before even looking closely at Panzer. The fact that you know your own alignment and thus know that Panzer has a greater chance of being scum than yourself doesn't excuse the fact that you could've still done some scumhunting on your own rather than rely on Charter's and Artem's. I think it would have been better to wait and see if close to deadline it came down to just the two of you. Then maybe lay your vote of desperation because that's exactly what it comes off as.

Well, of course it was a "vote of desperation". What do you think I am saying?

I "jumped" on Panzer because another player was already building a case on them, giving them a higher chance of being lynched off the bat. Otherwise, that is a decent answer

@charter
no i diddn't see the need to vote you or fos you at the time because i have seen you do more scummy stuff in a game as town so i am willing to let it slide


panzer doesn't bother me that much but i am getting annoyed at xdaamo and feel that he is the correct lynch for today

You're being uncooperative town. I have asked you many times over to justify your bizzare attacks, and you seem to think it is fine to ignore me and repeat yourself. If you want to be playing the best you can, it is vital you review your own case and make sure you have not been fooled or self-deceptive, which means throwing away "vibes" unless you can back them up.

Here's a good question for you to answer: "what makes someone more likely to annoy you if they are scum?"

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP: Forgot I was answering Lynx halfway through. My point was that we are at a dilemma of two strategies: looking at each player and choosing carefully to save yourself, or trying to lynch another player under fire to save yourself. Both are viable town strategies, and I went with the second. It's unlikely for us to be able to determine which is optimal, making my approach reasonable.

[Xdaamno]

t;]@charter
no i diddn't see the need to vote you or fos you at the time because i have seen you do more scummy stuff in a game as town so i am willing to let it slide


panzer doesn't bother me that much but i am getting annoyed at xdaamo and feel that he is the correct lynch for today

You're being uncooperative town. I have asked you many times over to justify your bizzare attacks, and you seem to think it is fine to ignore me and repeat yourself. If you want to be playing the best you can, it is vital you review your own case and make sure you have not been fooled or self-deceptive, which means throwing away "vibes" unless you can back them up.

Here's a good question for you to answer: "what makes someone more likely to annoy you if they are scum?"

hush,
i play the way i play
i see you attacks as argumentative and annoying. I dislike your holier than thou appraoch to tone in your posts and i feel you need to be lynched, and as far as attacks i really haven't made any other that agreeing with what lynx has said. So in closing look eslwhere to engage in a thread dominating argument for i won't be your huckleberry on that one.

Looking back over my posts, I'm guilty of a holier than thou attitude. It's not intentional, and it probably looks worse when I try to run things through step-by-step, logically. But that is something I need to work on.

However, what the hell would that have to do with my alignment? And why are you so aversive to answering my questions in the first place? At the least, you could simply make the effort to point out why they are loaded, fallacious, emotionally misleading or whatever else you would like to claim.

Your response reminds me of the "God moves in mysterious ways" argument. You're not God. You're not immune to logical questions; you can't claim to have some kind of veil that protects you from anything you don't like the answer to. You're here to play mafia.

[Xdaamno]

exactly and i am playing this game the way i see fit to play it. Obv I feel that your "logical questions" do not require a response for me. So in short yes I am intentionally blowing you off.

Why?

[Xdaamno]

Xda should still post his pbp analysis... or his Panzer case. Currently, he's doing nothing but using "No U" arguments instead of providing the content he promised.

I will when I feel like it.

[Xdaamno]

You've repeatedly hit L-1 and with the current state of the game, you will be deadline lynched. If you were town, you would be concentrated on getting information into the hands of town while you still can. The fact that you haven't been too concerned with it makes you either a lazy townie or a scum. Good riddance in either case, imo. The argument about your post having to be the last one of the day doesn't hold any water. As somebody already mentioned, all eyes are currently on you and whatever you post about other players will not simply be brushed off when (and if) you cardflip town.

And if you need more motivation to get cranking:

Unvote; Vote: Xdaamno; FoS: Panzer

This

is how you pressure vote.

This is not the time for pressure voting, as we are approaching a deadline. This is my last post until Artem unvotes.

[Xdaamno]

Ah, good catch Artem. I was exaggerating on both occasions.

If you don't believe me, give a moment's thought to why the hell such a contradiction could possibly be relevant to my alignment.

[Xdaamno]

Mod: Deadline extension, please.

Deadlines should be for promoting activity, and we're doing fine.

[Xdaamno]

This is not the time for pressure voting, as we are approaching a deadline. This is my last post until Artem unvotes.

This is not townie behavior. Why be so stubborn when you can help out the town if you really are being mislynched? If you're gonna give us anything do it soon or you will be lynched by deadline or another player. This refusual only reassures you as scum for me. It's not the end of the game if you die so stop playing like it.

I intended to take a chance to convince Artem to unvote. I am trying to play the game optimally up until the point where it starts to not become fun. That is something which I will absolutely never sacrifice.

Also, are you

seriously

trying to say that because townies can still win if they die, there is no reason to stay alive?

[Xdaamno]

-Xd and panzer likely have opposite alignment; (duh!)

Oh, can you explain? What makes it unlikely we're both town?

[Xdaamno]

Ok deadline extended is definitely a good thing.

Right now I think we definitely need Panzer and Xdaamno to present why the other is the better lynch candidate for the day. You can give us any sort of analysis or reads on some of the other players to utilize on Day 2 in case you flip town.

Panzer, if there was more time today I'd probably consider your proposal more strongly. Now though, I think it's most likely going to stay between you and Xdaamno.

FOS: Lynx

[Xdaamno]

-Xd and panzer likely have opposite alignment; (duh!)

Oh, can you explain? What makes it unlikely we're both town?

I think that if you were both town, we would have seen a lynch a long time ago, because scum would likely pile in on one of you. Of course, we don't know how many scum there are, so it's hard to know how likely they are to influence one wagon over another, but I also have my own wagon to compare yours to. (I would argue that I rose to enough votes to get lynched faster than you and for less scumminess.)

I'm also a little biased at this point, because I really think you are one of the scums. I also think that your cardflip will be very educational.

You think I'm scum, yet my reveal will be educational?

[Xdaamno]

Vote: Artem

[Xdaamno]

Mod: Once again, deadline extension please

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP:

As the replacement is requesting extra time, deadline will be extended by 24 hours to Monday January 26th, at 11AM PST. This will be the entirety of the deadline extention for the first day.

Ah, I missed this. That's a damn short deadline though 0_o

[Xdaamno]

On a re-read, I'm definately pointing my finger at charter; he's

far

scummier than anyone else right now.

Over, and over, and over again he makes brash, vote-related accusations that he seems to be 'certain' of. Town players are very rarely certain in practice, while scum players are quick to call town players both "certain town" and "certain scum", since nothing is a mystery to them. Examples:

Still want the Xdaamo lynch.

I think you're scum, I want to lynch you.

Happy with a Panzer lynch. An Xdaamo lynch is an acceptable last resort.

I think it's Panzer and dan. I don't think Xdaamo is scum anymore. I got all excited about his mishammer and got carried away.

I add dan to my list because of his earlier ties to Panzer and his most recent post, saying he finds Xdaamo more town and Panzer more scum but doesn't change his vote.

@Charter- You're pretty excited about Panzer, too. An honest question- why is this time different from when you were excited about Xda (how can I know you arent being 'carried away' again?

I would bet my life that Artem is town.

Panzer is definately the way to go today.
Assuming Xdaamo isn't scum, like I said, I'd bet money Artem is town.

Unvote, Vote: charter

His change of direction from me to Panzer also strikes a bad vibe, and makes me think Panzer is town. For a while, I became indifferent to him because of the fact he was on my side (and by 'my side', I mean against everyone but me).

I'm not sure that I will be lynched today, so I won't self-hammer.

[Xdaamno]

Uhh, why so urgent Lowell? Deadline is 3 hours away so even if no one hammers him, he'll still be lynched unless everyone decides to simultaneously jump off his wagon. On that matter, Xda, is there a reason besides your own survival that you want another extension?

Yes, there is: I want charter lynched.

[Xdaamno]

Oh, and this is the scummiest sentence said in my entire mafia career:

Assuming Xdaamo isn't scum, like I said, I'd bet money Artem is town.