Mini 2332: A Mid-scummer Nights Dream II | GG

[Prism]

It feels good to be back in the saddle. Despite the fears I have for this game, mafia fills a void for me like no other. I think this playerlist is close to my ideal. I am already fond of some of you, but I have had my eye on some of you for awhile now. I am excited to finally play with you.

I think turning the dial and car seat are the most promising. The first sound strengthening, which is best used on Night 1 with the most roles in play. The second sounds protective, though it may come with roleblocks. I'm worried that supergluing creates lover pairs, but it might also create neighborhoods. I don't think the slide sounds fun, nor am I interested in sheep.

I wish I remembered the first game, but I don't. I may review it later, but you shouldn't expect any setup insight from me yet.

This paragraph is tedious, but it is important. My work-life balance is not what it used to be. I will not post as much as my meta implies, and I expect to be outposted by a wide margin. It is easier to draw attention, and hammer in your perspective, by splitting posts into a hundred bite-size pieces. I expect this to be the game's norm, but I cannot do this. Treating my posts on equal footing will take conscious effort, but it is critical for reading me correctly. My posts will be accessible and high-quality to compensate. You should expect me to skip commentary on discussions I think were either fully explored by others or not very probative for discerning alignment.

[Prism]

I missed the Vi dream since I wrote that before the lock. Vi had a knack for designing interesting but scumsided games, usually with a bastard Tarhalindur over Mafia included. ("Town Calamity Trigger" was a fun one.)

I'm not sure what their conception of Vi is. It'd be fun if they introduced the battery mechanic from Mafia Behind the Maiden, which would selfishly be amazing for me but bad for the playerlist.

[Prism]

I remain unmoved by the slide. The prospect of a longer Day 1 requiring more votes to eliminate sounds unappealing.

So far I'd vote Hu Tao, whose opener feels like a Firebringer imitation without pizazz, and DragonEater70, whose eagerness to discuss and find townreads on people feels like a hamfisted ingratiation attempt. There are no touches of pressure scattered throughout, and these are tools are best used in conjunction.

For Dragon, Tarhalindur, ____ Over Mafia is a special role that was present in most Vi games. Your question reminded me it actually appeared in the original Midscummer since Vi was a reviewer, if you are curious. There is a chance one appears this game with or without a dream. While that is the most obvious Vi calling card, Vi was a fountain of moderator creativity and the possibilities for that dream are endless.

[Prism]

Alisae is incorrect. The dominant strategy is to vote the best-looking dreams available.

First, we may see the dream again means we may not. The moderators will have extras, and this one is unlikely to be the best dream available. Second, even if we do see it later, it will likely be more desirable later: a neutral, known dream is better than dreams that all look bad.

Finally, if you are worried about scum discarding a good dream, this option is always available barring role interference. It is best to stack the selection to ensure a desirable dream remains. Scum will also likely have one selection override, but picking the slide Day 1 will not get them to burn it.

I don't really enjoy the extended dialogue about this from a quality of life perspective.

[Prism]

I also don't think it's correct that speculative dream quality is irrelevant, if that is not obvious, but I will engage with that point anyway.

I think the utility of having two revealed dreams to pick from on Day 1 is not terribly high when one of those dreams is neutral.

In the worst case scenario where the chosen revealed dream is unpickable, the question is "Do we prefer a voted-in but unrevealed dream to the slide?" The answer to that is still no.

[Prism]

Correction: The question is "Do we prefer a voted-in but unrevealed dream to the slide?" The answer to that is still till yes.

Beware the danger of shifting around your sentence structure mid-drafting.

[Prism]

I think this dream is neutral in earlier days, and negative-utility as we approach ELo. Which probably makes it a good early choice

If it even still works in Elo, the plurality requirement suffices to make it neutral.

If this is an unresolved question to the mods, I don't think a single person would enjoy waiting multiple days in Elo for a vote to go through.

[Prism]

If I had a dayvig I would use it after 143.

[Prism]

This doesn't have anything to do with alignment but seeing "townpilled" and "mafpilled" convinces me that I need to be wheeled into the nursing home. I can see clearly the culture that led to this moment, and I understand that it evolved to leave me far behind.

[Prism]

Anyway, two points. First, I think Dragon was a lot more hostile and skeptical when accused of virtually anything in Pizza Kids.

Second:

It probably came out wrong so I just wanna clarify that I don't think I was necessarily the driving force in getting out of RVS even though Prism did post a scumread of me and you did post a question/shade/idk of me so I'd say it did achieve something wrt to getting out of RVS, but again my objective wasn't that, I just had a read and I posted it because that's what you do with early reads, you post them and hope that somehow or another you're going to end up out of RVS

Have I created a word salad? Perhaps. However I'll have you know that it was a word salad made by a townperson.

And also that my read on Gimli is real and confident and, to use a usesPython term (sort of), townpilled. And also I think, if I'm allowed to indulge in usesPython imitation, that questioning that read is cringe and mafpilled.

The bolded might be an indicator that it is late for Dragon and that he is sleep deprived. But it seems to me likely that Dragon is self-conscious of how convoluted the answer was. While he was ready for disagreements with the Gimli read ("Second, you do you Black. I'm happy with my read."), he was totally unprepared for reactions that were skeptical of Dragon himself.

I'd also note that Black immediately got more explanation when she, too, expressed skepticism of Dragon himself.

So I'd dayvig him.

[Prism]

Am I the only one that feels like this is an exaggerated and possibly fake read? Where is the solving? Where is the lack of pocket attempts? Am I missing something here?

My approach is different. I'm less worried about the read itself because I believe Dragon thinks it plausible. I agree with Sunflower that he does similar as town, and Dragon knows he does it. The eagerness to get it out the door might be indicative, but I don't doubt Dragon saw something he thought he could work with.

I'm more bothered by the absence of early pressure attempts and the receptive nervousness to scumreads on him.

[Prism]

I don't know enough about the Klick or Von Payne votes to even take a realistic guess at Dragon's perspective there. I just don't agree with them.

[Prism]

However I don't find the difference between DE and Kiri / Gimli substantial. Why not throw these two in similar buckets?

My early Dragon read was personalized. I haven't played with either of Kirigiri/Gimli. I didn't townread either, and reviewing still don't.

I think Kirigiri's Silver Ravens read about mech solving is bland and underinclusive, though. Do Klick, Catgirl Chipotle, and I all get the same treatment?

[Prism]

Have you played with Dragon before? If so, can you be explicit in how that informs your read here?

[Prism]

It is a style typical of intermediate level players. I was hoping for more, but that suffices to answer my question.

[Prism]

I missed Dragon's 192 in my earlier commentary. The thought process is plausible, but it doesn't move the needle.

[Prism]

I'm unexpectedly restless. I didn't sign up to stagnate and serve as a living anachronistic museum exhibit. I want to take on hard challenges and learn new tricks.

I submitted Dial, Car seat, and Vi. Briefly summarizing my choices: Dial sounds like it amplifies power, making it a good early choice with all power roles in play. Car seat sounds protective even if it may come with restraints akin to a roleblock. Vi I picked for fun: the others didn't sound appealing, it could be anything, and I hope it's the battery mechanic.

[Prism]

I'm on spring break right now, and I know I won't always be this motivated and energetic. That only makes me more eager.

[Prism]

Not right now, which is why I am frustrated at no one in particular. I'm waiting for the next phase.

[Prism]

There are no votes. We're in Moonrise. I'm also not voting you.

[Prism]

To be clear, that's a response to the point that it's scummy for Von Payne to not vote Dragon. I am neither surprised nor interested in the vote on me.

[Prism]

I'm happy leaving 288 without a response.

[Prism]

You are correct actually. Unfortunately I'm still not sure since the game-specific rules do not match reality in other respects. #3 specifies Moonrise is

before

Day phase, and

at least

24 hours.

[Prism]

The language is there, I'm just not sure it's accurate since the game-specific rules were noticeably redrafted and have vestigial clauses.

I inferred in two different ways from the lack of votecounts that nothing would be tracked during Moonrise: fferyllt follows the same convention I do with a zero-indexed daystart votecount, and she aims to have one for every 4 or 5 pages.

[Prism]

Don't complain later that I am the one seeking to avoid fights

I think you realize I don't want to get bogged down debating tedium, but just in case, I want to be explicit that is the motivation. I can prove I've thought through your points already but it would make everyone's eyes glaze over and tune out, mine included.

I am not generally dismissive of the substance.

[Prism]

(I'm also not calling your counterpoints tedium: it's when I give counters to the counters that things spiral)

[Prism]

A car seat is literally a safety device for children.

[Prism]

I did mention Vi was known for scumsided mechanics...

Mechanically, that is two neutral/useless dreams and two negative dreams. Basic balance essentially requires dreams to be net +EV, but I'll drop that assumption for now.

But the most important part is the voting. I am extremely annoyed at that power because I was looking to kick into gear with daystart, not slow down. I am unlikely to get Dragon today and don't think I want to even if I could: I think the chance of misreading him by late Day 2/3 is extremely low.

I don't have strong reads right now. I'd put my preference at:

1. Hu Tao
2. Kirigiri
3. Dragon
4. Sunflower
5. Ydrasse
6. Ravens
7. Von Payne
8. Aureal
9. ActionDan
10. Klick
11. Gimli
12. Catgirl Chipotle

There is a gap between my top 2 and the rest. 4-8 are pretty interchangeable. I am for now taking the townreads on Gimli for granted. Catgirl Chipotle is my only townread because I don't think Alisae would continue to disagree with Dunnstral and I mechanically as scum. (Well, maybe if Ravens is scum too, but not going there)

I'm not really confident in my top 2, but Hu Tao is still trying to be a dollarstore Firebringer, and I think Kirigiri's early banter was meh and really disliked the Ravens townread in particular. As much as I wish lower participation wasn't a part of this, it is when I don't have very developed reads. (Kirigiri's headache is especially unfortunate).

VOTE: Hu Tao

Spoiler: Response to Sunflower

like prism points out that he didn't expect people to suspect him. frankly I wasn't really paying attention to anything until after page five but i'm pretty sure dragon not expecting suspicion is like in line

Most people don't expect scumreads. You missed both of the points here.

First, Dragon bristles against disagreement and is quick to read bad faith into it. Exhibit A, B, and C. He didn't start doing this here until I pointed out the absence. Instead he was nervously acquiescent.

Frankly, I'm grateful that Dragon accepted my refusal to back-and-forth, but it surprised me because he's usually more of a hound.

Second, and this is more speculative, is that Dragon knows his meta as far as early townreads go. Hypothetically, the townread on Gimli would be keeping in line with it. When I say he didn't expect the skepticism, I mean that some of the nerves/meta break in #1 is because he expected the "Typical Dragon town" lines to roll in, not Black's grilling.

Two separate points you might have missed: Dragon normally pressures more early, didn't happen here, and his reaction to Black still reads as awkwardly adjusting on the fly based off what gets townread and what doesn't.

[Prism]

I don't know why your main concern is assuring me you weren't misrepresenting me. That wasn't why I typed the post. I typed it so that you can think about the points inside of it. I don't care about fireisredsir's perspective at all.

[Prism]

I don't appreciate Hu Tao refusing to play towards her win condition regardless of alignment. The other players are putting in effort. Return the favor.

I'm eager to here more from Kirigiri today. I hope her headache has improved. If Hu Tao starts actually starts playing, I'd prefer to vote there.

I will lay my full cards on the table for my Dragon read.

Spoiler: My hand

First, there is the point that Dragon townreading people fast and early is in line. I agree with it. The second point is that he is usually confident in his own towniness and perhaps entitled. I, again, agree.

So where do we diverge? I have higher expectations for Dragon's ability to adapt and emulate the basics. I found the lack of early pressure a surface-level anomaly, but what made my second spot, the absence of his usual kneejerk hostility, valuable was that Dragons probably wasn't aware of his own bad tendency.

Then comes 143, which I disliked as an overly self-conscious post. As I discussed earlier with Catgirl, players start realizing at the intermediate level that being vulnerable and open about their insecurities can help, even as scum. They usually overuse it instead of selectively using it at the right times. This doesn't mean the player is bad: it's just a growing pain I've seen play out over and over.

I thought 143 fit that mental model. The best test is to immediately shove the person, just destroy that newly discovered comfort and see whether they panic. So I quickly shot off the dayvig comment and polished up the follow-up in 146. I felt middling about the reaction I got: it wasn't panic, but the attempt to distinguish this game from Pizza Kids as being fundamentally different contexts was unpersuasive and a reach (the utility of early pressure doesn't vary much between the two setups). The town model I expected was "Yeah I'm just going with my reads and playing differently."

My read doesn't evolve much from there. Dragon's increased skepticism of me was expected either way, as town because that's what he does, as scum because I just pointed out it's what he does. 288 is mostly a refinement of the distinction point but adds sleep deprivation, which I'd already acknowledged prior.

Beyond this, the read hasn't evolved as much as I'd like. There are many posts that are fine but not difficult to fake. I need more information about whether our other reads being in line is town-indicative The only other behavior that threw me was random posts that are intentionally counterintuitive, because they feel like being counterintuitive is the performative goal instead of a means to an end.

At the end of the day, he's sitting in nullscum, but I'd be surprised if I didn't just figure him out through a metadive on Day 2/Day 3. Dragon seems to think I ignore his counterpoints or the behaviors others see as town, but I'm not. They're just outweighed, largely because I expect him to more easily emulate those behaviors.

For Ravens, Catgirl voted Sunflower because Jupiter burned 3 posts for essentially no reason, with the pagetop being especially egregious. I thought about doing the same or burning a post lecturing them, but I thought I'd get a "more posting" outcome so I didn't.

I revisited Aureal yesterday. She should probably go higher up on my list, probably at 4/5. I really want to play with her but I felt meh about the tone of 535 and 552. Maybe it's a legitimate and personalized read, but the goal might have been to vent while avoiding drawing the Dragon hostile reactivity.

[Prism]

You can find the sample VT PM here. Typically, every game includes one somewhere at the start.

[Prism]

VOTE: Kirigiri

[Prism]

Hu Tao should know the scumteam didn't pick the dream nor have extra time to ask about the one picked by the dreamer. She's digging the dumbtell hole very deep but unfortunately I'm convinced I should jump in. I don't for a second agree with the read, but I am sold for the moment that she isn't in a scum PT.

I oppose the vote now. There is one further irony I will discuss in a later gameday.

I'm on my phone right now. I'll include my responses to Kirigiri, Gimli, and Dragon in a later large post.

[Prism]

My interpretation is wrong after further thought and review. Hu Tao thinks scum asked after the fact to find a strategy to burn posts, not that they asked during dream selection.

I am still inclined to townread the post. It's creative. I don't really buy it, but if I did, Silver Ravens is a better candidate on this front because Ravens "tested" a vote that clearly counted under the ruleset and immediately unvoted afterwards.

I'll stop posting for now, but I didn't want that error to sit.

[Prism]

That is one of the single worst takes I have seen in my entire life and it is not close. I don't mind burning a post saying it.

Revisit.

[Prism]

VOTE: Sunflower

[Prism]

VOTE: No elim

[Prism]

VOTE: Ravens

[Prism]

I've been out the last several nights, including right now. I would have voted Ravens, Aureal, or Von Payne. At some point I will have time to post what I'd like, or at least I hope.

[Prism]

Also contrary to everyone else's PR assumption, it was incredibly obvious Hu Tao was a VT. That flip was incredibly dumb because the confusion uniquely arises from being VT.

[Prism]

I want to know which head of Sunflower voted me.

[Prism]

Cool. Fire, I want to know what part of you thought that reactionary vote was a good idea and why.

[Prism]

Sunflower is currently fourth on my list but might skyrocket to one.

Dragon is fifth. Nothing has bothered me past the last set of posting, even if it hasn't impressed.

[Prism]

Cool. Fire, I want to know what part of you thought that reactionary vote was a good idea and why.

is it a bad idea? idk, you calling my entire readlists as well as fire's a horrendously bad take (paraphrased) and then voting us kind of pisssd me off a little

I don't care about your opinion on this one, sorry. Not personal.

[Prism]

I fully expect your read on me to be wildly wrong, and I didn't care.

[Prism]

I still don't care.

[Prism]

I don't want anything from you on this front. I asked for fire for a reason.

[Prism]

You're getting short annoyance because I'm on my phone at a show. Not personal or contemptuous.

[Prism]

I don't think waiting for fire will change it. fire knows that I don't bluff argumentatively. It didn't matter if I was scum or town. That post should have instantly flagged that he was incredibly wrong and needed to reevaluate.

[Prism]

Fact he didn't seem to do it even in private is a bad sign.

[Prism]

At one point that night I slammed my hands on my desk and yelled "You're not Dragon, what the fuck is that?"

I was not happy.

[Prism]

Actually Jupiter, there is something you can do for me. What did fire tell you in the wake of my post?

[Prism]

I'll be home soon. Will try to put in actual work.

[Prism]

have fun at your show

Actually Jupiter, there is something you can do for me. What did fire tell you in the wake of my post?

For the notification.

[Prism]

I want to know which head of Sunflower voted me.

Why ask this now when it happened like two days ago?

I knew it was fire. I wanted confirmation and the ability to dialogue. It would have made it in my larger post had I the time to make it.

[Prism]

For the record based off of what Jupiter said alone I would already instantly flip Sunfire.

[Prism]

time to white knight

i think that it's dangerous to play like gimli's playing right now as a wolf even if it's not particularly "good" town play because boxing yourself in can be a hard thing to get out of. it's a bit shallow at times and more vibes and confidence than maybe deserved but i struggle to see the wolf that does this. i will also hedge on THIS opinion and say i could be wrong but i don't feel like there's malice.

this reads like tmi

Disagree. Same thoughts since middle of sheep phase.

[Prism]

Cool. What did fire say in the interim between then and now?

[Prism]

About me, specifically.

[Prism]

It looks like my desire to longpost will be denied yet again. If I get nightkilled I get nightkilled.

Voting preference:

Sunflower -> Silver Ravens -> Von Payne -> Kirigiri -> Klick -> Aureal -> ActionDan -> Dragons -> Ydrasse -> Gimli

I'm not putting Catgirl in there. I think their reads are near-universally disagreeable and the Hu Tao flip bad. Still, I would be surprised if they insisted on slide against Dunnstral and I. I'd revisit if Ravens flips red.

Sunflower should get flipped. I unvoted because I was irritable from too much caffeine and figured I expected too much from fire. Jupiter's partner read was blatantly wrong and fire should have put their foot down. ButI was willing to ignore it.

fire's read was bad for several reasons, but the primary one is this: The missing item from my early posting is every bit of tonal nuance that I spent half a decade engineering to be near-universally townread. The cuts are intentional and NAI at worst.

Still, I thought I demanded too much of fire. But he should have spent substantial time wondering what was wrong. fire is very interested in reversing thought processes like that. But fire didn't: he took my unvote as passing a vibecheck, and seems to have thought no further. I typed this before a p-edit, and what do you know, fire appears to have said it was a reaction test.

Ravens and Von Payne are more vibe reads. Dunnstral'd been unusually verbose, following me on Sunflower was bizarre from a third party perspective I haven't bought the hydra dissonance from Von Payne and Drew feels different from JOAT.

[Prism]

fire's seen my scumgame, probably more than once. Bruteforcing townreads by way of tone is more natural to me than breathing. It's not here this game by choice.

Which is why his read was uniquely horrific, and if he didn't get it at first fire is unlikely to get it after more thought. But he's scum for not taking the time to try, and instead just trying to pass a vibecheck.

[Prism]

Hu Tao's confusion literally couldn't have come from anything but a VT. The only reason I didn't intervene is because I thought Aureal was the leading wagon.

Hu Tao couldn't figure out if the ability to dream meant they were a VT or a backup. The irony I mentioned earlier is that everyone thought they were a PR when their confusion ruled it out entirely.

[Prism]

"It probably gave us clues" is one of the most abstract reasons I've seen to rationalize a wrong vote.

[Prism]

One of these scenarios requires extreme creativity and out-of-the-box thinking because it is

unique to this specific game's

VT PM. The other scenario is that someone literally just doesn't know if they're a backup PR or not because it's not obvious from the PM.

[Prism]

I already explained why I didn't intervene on Hu Tao. The full reasoning outs they are a VT: I burned two out of seven posts explaining an alternative ground. Maybe you should read 848.

[Prism]

Virtually none, haven't gone indepth on Aureal. Klick is unimpressive this game, virtually every read I've disagreed with.

[Prism]

For reference I haven't been able to use my laptop on this game in ~3 days, which is why no one has gotten an in-depth quote response. Every post I've made has been from the streets, the subway, or a bar.

[Prism]

I couldn't find the unanswered question skimming on my phone that night. Link it.

[Prism]

Lol this reaction by Sunflower is so towny

I might expect too much but this expects too little.

[Prism]

Thought you were referring to fire's. I don't know Jupiter so maybe.

[Prism]

My only townread early was Catgirl. I thought the big post was fine, even if it's largely just agreeing with me, so I slotted ActionDan in the lower end along with Klick whose slide post I disagreed with but liked.

[Prism]

You didn't call your own read bad. You called it undeveloped. My point is that it was wrong from the start and needed to be scrapped.

Meanwhile I just handed you the exact explanation for the stylistic worry on a silver platter.

[Prism]

prism’s read on dragon, especially with the elaboration,

feels really precise and surgical and that worries me a little bit.

i know she said at the start that her focus was going to be very directed this game but

the analysis doesn't feel as holistic as i expect, i guess.

ive seen prism be extremely towny in the way she approaches solving a game and i feel like im still waiting to see that.

First is clearly stylistic. Second is both stylistic and substantive. I addressed the fuller picture to Dragon in quotes.

[Prism]

My favorite part of this is that fire's argument is "of course I reconsidered and am constantly reevaluating privately" but the actual reasoning moved and developed zero.

[Prism]

Great. I already knew how you thought at the time of the post. Explain how it developed over the next two days.

[Prism]

When not phone posting, I revise posts by cutting every word and sentence I find superfluous or byzantine. Hope this helps.

[Prism]

Thanks, will revisit later.

[Prism]

268/269 are exactly what they say. The point isn't to shield my thinking and emotions entirely.

272 is a response.

[Prism]

You can find similar scum posts in Iceland. Normally I do more showing and less telling.

[Prism]

Shrug. I was hoping for a nightkill, but I haven't earned one. I'm out right now, as usual for this game.

[Prism]

Oversimplified read on Catgirl. It's specifically a dynamic with myself and Dunnstral.

If you want bad mech reads go look at Kirigiri's on Ravens.

[Prism]

You quoted the layered dynamic and proved my point. It's not a simple mech disagreement=town read. It's a meta read dealing with Alisae's willingness to contravene myself and Dunnstral.

[Prism]

I can write more about it later but I am more inclined to think Sunflower is town.

[Prism]

If you're passionate about my early read on Dragon, too, you can meta me. This game is my usual town opening repertoire, but with more words cut out.

[Prism]

For morph your role design is too predictable, I saw hider coming.

[Prism]

I can't really say the no u no Gimli no Catgirl is a fun read.

I would be surprised if Dragon didn't hide behind Klick. I'll leave looking for crumbs to others.

[Prism]

I take it back, because maybe others get something from the puffed chests and frilled lizard hissing showmanship. I don't, but not everyone is me.

[Prism]

Do you care that my read on Catgirl is a more complex one and that my opening reads metamatch, or is this someone else's problem?

[Prism]

I'm out now, see ya.

[Prism]

I see the Aureal hide soft. I'm fine voting there.

I think Ravens, Catgirl, and Von Payne are good targets for tomorrow. I am annoyed with Gimli but still don't scumread him. Ydrasse is a big ?_?

[Prism]

Kirigiri should probably also go in that pool.

[Prism]

Von Payne's role can go either way in reality, but my first instinct was that it was a scum role.

There are two good design dynamics for it. The first is as a town PR that puts pressure on scum to break into the block. This is a scattered and incohesive dynamic when you throw in the dream mechanics on top of it. The second one is a scum PR that enables a good deal of strategic deepwolfing and thread control. I need to know more about the setup to make a reliable guess, but my instinctive one is the second.

[Prism]

I'm voting for Superman, DND, and Parts.

Noticed Gimli's 1050 when I scrolled back through. Perhaps a bit too over the top for town, but I'm unfamiliar with his meta. Plenty of town players do this. I'm still not very worried about it today.

[Prism]

My mechanical speculation is limited because I think very differently from fferyllt on game design, and am even further removed from Cabd.

Hider and neighborhoods were two sure-fire inclusions because the mods are addicted to both, but they usually favor more gambity PT bullshit than the public thread enables.

[Prism]

Some of the read is by default. I have things I like about basically most other slots except Ydrasse, who probably gets too much benefit of the doubt because I'm used to her struggling to stay engaged like this. I didn't even remember I liked her Day 1 Gimli read until typing this out.

I'd probably put my top 2 at Kirigiri and Von Payne. Both of those need actual work and reasoning that I'm too lazy to do right now.

[Prism]

FWIW I don't think I tunneled Dragon. I start games by making guesses and adjusting. I did that with Dragon and I did it with Sunflower. I don't mind being wrong. Dragon moved up significantly as the day went on. It was a pretty routine Day 1 for me.

[Prism]

Hey Aureal what do you think happened with the hider?

She literally just made a large post about this.

[Prism]

i thought that prism would know how i emotionally would respond to me making 624 and having lots of fun etc and making a read and then being told unspecifically that it was awful. it wouldn't make me intellectually and rationally revisit it, it would just make me lose confidence and feel dejected, which is more or less what happened

The dejection was expected. It's why I found the returned vote questionable as a display of self-confidence. The unvote gave you time to circle back, and I did not like seeing the read go undeveloped. Night phase mostly assuaged my concern.

[Prism]

I reread Kirigiri's points about Hu Tao. I think 650 does a lot of work to cast each post in a bad light, for example calling 583 an emotional overreaction instead of very plain. This could be a simple stylistic choice, but it made the case uncompelling.

In contrast, this post is very rough.

One of these [Hu Tao claim] scenarios requires extreme creativity and out-of-the-box thinking because it is

unique to this specific game's

VT PM. The other scenario is that someone literally just doesn't know if they're a backup PR or not because it's not obvious from the PM.

Not really. its super easy to perform as you dont get anything about game, your own role pm, the general mafia games at all (cause everyone knows in almost all games a sample role pm is posted) and it was well into them trying to appear as they are lost entirely

Maybe I'm just the type to give so much credit to people when its not deserved but I explained why I thought their entire being lost thingy was a performance before in a large wall post and I'm not gonna go over that again.

This post claims that it's very easy for scum to look at the sample PM, realize it can be ambiguously a PR or VT PM, and create a corresponding play around that ambiguity. I'm already skeptical, because hypothetically possible is a world away from likely, but Kirigiri represents this as being mostly answered it in 650.

650 makes a big show of doubting the "feeling lost" act very broadly, which is fine. This goes further than 650 ever did.

In 650, Kirigiri is disturbed,

in general

, by Hu Tao's show of confusion.

Err what's the VT of this game called?

this isnt being lost from game. This is acting as they are lost entirely from mafia games overall.

The problem is that Hu Tao wasn't just lost in general. Her confusion over her VT role

uniquely arises

from the VT's backup dreamer ability. Faking this requires much greater scum creativity.

It's fine to miss this nuance in 650 and when voting. But 855 retroactively dismisses the critical distinction even when highlighted.

[Prism]

I don't think fireisredsir at least is out of range. I just don't feel as strongly as I did previously. 911 was a plausible thought process and I thought the vote clarification from Jupiter was +town because it was completely unnecessary.

[Prism]

I thought the vote clarification from Jupiter was +town because it was completely unnecessary.

it's neccesary to me ok.

It made sense from the concern of someone who wants to be fully transparent, such as a town player.

For Dan, I considered the retconning but didn't find it too likely. It's difficult to pinpoint why, but the answer is probably in the delivery. Jupiter felt legitimately self-conscious that they would get grilled for voting. It's not easy to make an outlandish retcon and invite sharp criticism when I'm already on a highly critical tear. Realizing I might be town and that it's important to let me see the full picture is a better motivator.

[Prism]

Jupiter felt legitimately self-conscious that they would get grilled for

voting

lying

. It's not easy to make an outlandish retcon and invite sharp criticism when I'm already on a highly critical tear. Realizing I might be town and that it's important to let me see the full picture is a better motivator.

EBWOP

[Prism]

That's fine by me. It's a townlean and not a read I'm currently willing to die on. Nothing fire has said about me is hard to fake.

[Prism]

I concur with 1221 to the extent that it was probably a bad nightkill. Perhaps Sunflower goes along with it to fit partner preferences, but the more straightforward answer is probably still that the slot is town.

[Prism]

I'm not opposed to it but I also don't see why I'm the strongest candidate. Are you uninterested?

[Prism]

My point about the NK is more precise. It's not that I think it was bad. I think Sunflower is unlikely to favor that kill. fireisredsir's perspective is that a higher priority is nightkilling people you can't eliminate, not people with good reads. Klick was very votable and unlikely to overwhelmingly prove himself town on a dime, making him a low-priority kill.

I am well-known to have this viewpoint. I don't think this is as well-known for fire.

[Prism]

I do think the nightkill was bad, to be clear. But that's not why I commented on it.

[Prism]

I agree that Catgirl's last several pages are very hard to rationalize. The "high point" is the comment about Von Payne's role, but that was less of a point and more of a circle.

[Prism]

My point about the NK is more precise. It's not that I think it was bad. I think Sunflower is unlikely to favor that kill. fireisredsir's perspective is that a higher priority is nightkilling people you can't eliminate, not people with good reads. Klick was very votable and unlikely to overwhelmingly prove himself town on a dime, making him a low-priority kill.

I am well-known to have this viewpoint. I don't think this is as well-known for fire.

I don't know how I feel about these deep meta reads. I thought fire was relatively new here so it's kind of weird to me that you two are interacting as if you've been playing together for a decade or something. I was getting weird pings from it earlier when you were pushing on fire's allegedly bad read of you, and it's weird how you're turning it around again. All based on meta that the rest of us probably can't hope to comprehend. I thought for a bit that you two were distancing, then realized I'd made a mistake in my timeline of when your votes happened, but I'm revisiting that read now.

I get the confusion and difficulty about my push in Twilight.

1247 is almost entirely self-contained. Sunflower correctly identified that Klick doesn't meet a nightkill criterion, and I believe Sunflower prioritizes that criterion. Is 1247 still confusing to you?

[Prism]

I'm not in opposition to it but I still don't understand why I am the top candidate for the neighborhood. That is something I envision Alisae and Maria wanting for themselves, not for me.

[Prism]

I don't think my thoughts and reads are unusually valuable. I don't think it will help sort me. I'm happy to give thoughts as time allows anyway, because I enjoy the game and intellectual exercise, but that doesn't heavily counsel picking me over someone else.

[Prism]

There are significantly more than two games. It's just games I've modded, I don't know why fire specified.

[Prism]

I am very confused as to why I am green, with my relative unimportance and independence to the game treated as a town tell. Not furthering a scum game plan is promising and true, but it's also abstract, and I can imagine casting myself in a few. I am trying to interrogate reads on me less, but putting me in green is very strong.

Back in 2020, Alisae believed my activity and energy levels were strongly indicative. I think that changed somewhere along the way, but it's unclear to me where or why. While there are deeper similarities, on the surface this game diverges heavily from the last time Alisae saw me play town in Anuket Topaz.

[Prism]

I've expressed sharing Ydrasse's thoughts on the two most important TMI accusations. Ydrasse and I are different people, but I remain unsold that TMI is the best explanation. Shrug.

[Prism]

1247 is almost entirely self-contained. Sunflower correctly identified that Klick doesn't meet a nightkill criterion, and I believe Sunflower prioritizes that criterion. Is 1247 still confusing to you?

I've never really had the chance to make nightkills so I haven't given the matter nearly so much thought as to have a strategy for who to target with them. So all of the talk about it is kinda going past me, yeah. Like, I assume you're assuming I'll flip red here so there's a very simple explanation for the NK, seeing as Klick was scumreading me.

I guess Gimli already touched on this point though, so it's probably a waste for me to try to even talk about it.

I do assume you'll flip red, but it's not really pertinent to 1247 or 1293. Your alignment is irrelevant for the point they make. I don't think shutting you out of conversation or leaving you confused is respectful or fun, so I'm still happy to talk and explain my perspective so long as I find it civil, reasonable, and in moderation.

[Prism]

Skimming that game is moderately painful. I was overly pedantic and refused to validate language usage and interpretive norms differing from my own. Mystifying that I was still a better player then.

[Prism]

I have no memories of your play or how I read you back then (I only even remember playing like a game or two with you before 2020. I remember playing with you in 2017 but I just remember playing with you not what actually happened). I do not have an understanding of your meta other than you being competent at both alignments, I think this is not something I could figure out without just spamming games with you in them. I hardly even remember Topaz tbh. If anything, to me you're an enigma.

Once day 1 officially started and you were a few posts out of the gate, I felt like what I saw was enough to townbin you.

I am struggling to understand how these paragraphs coalescence in your mind. The first paragraph says you don't understand my meta, but know I am competent at both alignments. I am an enigma and you're not sure you can figure it out how to read me. The second paragraph says you town binned me after a few good posts.

[Prism]

coalesce, it's early.

[Prism]

This reminds me that we had 34 votes instead of 39 last moonrise. I assume two missing votes came from Catgirl only voting slide. Someone forgot to submit, assuming no role shenanigans.

[Prism]

I'm very bothered by how they formatted MorphTheCat in the dream. It is probably there as a sick cosmically ordained joke at my expense, but I would like to think it's the evil twin(s?) of morph the cat.

[Prism]

I'm tired and it's probably been addressed in 4 pages but what in the world is that pick, the revealed dream allowed us to directly ask Dragons the hide

[Prism]

I'm tired and it's probably been addressed in 4 pages but what in the world is that pick, the revealed dream allowed us to directly ask Dragons the hide

No one should reply to this but J E S U S

[Prism]

I am on page 55 and I want to throw Catgirl off a cliff, doubly so if they are town.

[Prism]

I'm going to sleep myself soon (but come on he clearly hid behind Aureal). If you doubt that look at those cheeky Flood / Trig votes. Claim them now now-Aureal people or forever hold your piece

I still intend to vote Aureal but I won't be totally shocked if Dragon changed his mind and forgot the early soft. I'm still betting he hid behind Aureal, but I will be mildly depressed if it doesn't work out.

[Prism]

I probably shouldn't bet on a second mech dumbbell with Jupiter but it is tempting. I had to look for whether scum got dream knowledge at one point yesterday, so it is absolutely realistic.

Maybe it'd have come up earlier with fire, IDK.

I already claimed my votes. Day 1 was Dial, Vi, car seat. Day 2 was DnD, Parts, Superman.

[Prism]

I still want a response to this.

I have no memories of your play or how I read you back then (I only even remember playing like a game or two with you before 2020. I remember playing with you in 2017 but I just remember playing with you not what actually happened). I do not have an understanding of your meta other than you being competent at both alignments, I think this is not something I could figure out without just spamming games with you in them. I hardly even remember Topaz tbh. If anything, to me you're an enigma.

Once day 1 officially started and you were a few posts out of the gate, I felt like what I saw was enough to townbin you.

I am struggling to understand how these paragraphs coalescence in your mind. The first paragraph says you don't understand my meta, but know I am competent at both alignments. I am an enigma and you're not sure you can figure it out how to read me. The second paragraph says you town binned me after a few good posts.

[Prism]

You should

strongly

consider using the first to inform the second.

[Prism]

Drew will mainly be playing this account from here on out. I may check in from time to time, we'll see

Sorry Black, but do you mind giving a quick summary of where you're at reads wise? I decided before I checked the thread that I needed to engage with your slot, and I think it'd be a helpful guidepost before I work back over.

[Prism]

I'm not disinterested in Drew, but Drew's style is further out from my comfort zone.

[Prism]

I do think it's funny how my expectation for the game was exactly wrong. I envisioned myself setting aside my usual large time blocks in reduced frequency, and only rarely checking the thread and rarely dropping a one-sentence post. Instead, I've seriously sat down maybe once, but I am always finding five or ten minutes during walks and commutes.

[Prism]

I don't really want to preflip, but it should get easier to solve Gimli's slot when Aureal flips. His level of bravado and townblocking is viable if the team is strong and positioned so that the block is defensible, if not in its entirety then at least between the insiders and outsiders.

Gimli's progression on Aureal, usually abstract and hedging, does not preclude partnership. But I think bussing so hard Day 1 is at least ill-advised.

Full disclosure: I also bought the PT posting and at least one burst of effort.

[Prism]

I also still want to know who voted Trig and Flood. I'd rather not go through the trouble of hunting you down directly via PoE.

[Prism]

Aureal, what dreams did you vote for?

[Prism]

Oh god help us.

[Prism]

1323 in particular and something feels slimy about how [Kirigiri] is trying to link us with Aureal before Aureal even flips. She can probably go into my orange section

This post links 4 players to Aureal. None of them are you, because Kirigiri didn't notice Aureal mention you. To your credit, you did.

[Prism]

Ah, I understand now. Thank you.

[Prism]

I knew the later posts. I was specifically bothered at the misread of 1323, because it appeared Black noticed and worried about the inculpatory aspect despite Kirigiri actually missing it. I think the two separate thoughts explanation makes more sense.

[Prism]

Right now I have her as a scumlean. I didn't like her Day 1 at all, particularly her treatment of Ravens and Hu Tao, but her Day 2 is better. I agree with posts questioning Drew's defense of Aureal.

[Prism]

Who was it that was pushing Aureal/Gimli? Was it Catgirls?

Spoiler: Some rather high-effort and elaborate showmanship

but also I want to push through the aureal flip now because I'm much more confident that aureal is scum in relation with hu tao. klick and DE are two townies who I think can read aureal very well, and we've all seen no reason to townread her yet - a player who is a locktownread on page 3 in most games - so that's where the flip goes. hu tao, in comparison, is someone that everyone that knows her is saying this is totally a possible route for town!hu tao to make. so we're not going there.

Look Gimli, calling me normally a page 3 locktownread is such a terrible take that just for you I compiled a list of almost all of my recent town games here and assessed how I was read by people in them. I'm never a page 3 townread,

ever

(not even just limiting it to your own opinion). Do you seriously think I was lying when I said I'm typically floating around null and regularly have to fight to try to not get voted out?

Newbie 2108: got a bit of D1 suspicion, pushed as counter-wagon to scum D2, would likely have been voted in ELO if I hadn't voted first
Micro 1068: like I said, I made a readlist to try to generate content in a slow game, promptly got booted for it
N2110: the aforementioned game where I managed to get a lot of townreads quickly upon replacing in, but still got miseliminated D3 since I'd been townreading you and was one of the two not mechanically cleared players
Micro 1070: literally sitting at E-2 in every single VC until after you replace in
N2111 :mystical unicorn game where I was townread by everyone by the end of D1 but hardly by "page 3", also Black was scum and that has some sort of knock-on effect of making me look townier
N2114: miseliminated D1
Micro 1072: miseliminated D1 (on the same day as the previous game! that was really bad week for me -_-)
Mini 2295: barely survived D2 since I was off the hasty D1 scumflip and was pushed again the next day until petapan replacing in got LLD to reconsider and we got scum who'd been pushing me instead, and yet still I got some paranoia suspicion even afterwards
Micro 1073: replaced in and was slow enough to act in voting my scumread that I started getting run up at the end of the next day by townies who actually wanted to vote scumRanger with me but got tired of waiting, but it's okay because Aisa the Martyr fixed everything (she's the only one who thought I was obvtown and she was still second-guessing herself in the Martyr PT, it was funny XD)
Team Mafia: "Gimli wants me to reiterate Aristeia/Korina T/T and Aureal scum"
Open 878: fought like hell D3 and barely managed to avoid being counterwagoned instead of scum (I wasn't so obvtown to Aisa this time but she made the right call in the end)
N2122: replaced into Shea's spot so I didn't have to do much to establish myself, was mostly read as null/town the rest of the game and managed to actually get to decide the ELO for once after turning the D2 flip onto scum
Mini 2308: focused on mech early and was largely ignored then just kinda sank into nothingness as other games and the setup and being scumread by my townreads sapped my morale, and got quickhammered in "surprise, it's actually ELO"
Veiled Committe: other game, miseliminated D1, not going into it
Open 880: blew off playing D1, got wagoned for it, whined and made them back off for a bit, got wagoned again at deadline and saved myself from getting hammered by 2 minutes with my elaborate fakeclaim strategy that I'd spent the day devising instead of having reads
Weird Dreams: was literally a mason with Rat and Alianna and even though they were obvtown to everyone they couldn't get enough support to get people to vote me into the Nightmare with them, and was actually the weak counterwagon at EOD1; oh and I got shot N2 because Ircher thought I was their traitor since I'd been siding with scumKyoko's push on Ranger
Micro 1079: STD made a meme expressing his suspicion of my suspicion of him, also I got voted by Flavor Leaf in ELO without me even really getting to participate in ELO
Open 882: got a scumread slot into a better position upon replacing in and caught onto scumDrew but T-Bone turned on me in ELO and voted me instead
Open 885: Black is scum again here so it's another magical unicorn game where I'm mostly townread (I'm sure it has nothing to do with how I was using lazy meta to townread her! ) though Snivy and Alianna got sus of me D2
Open 890: another game I started really lazily then had momentum go towards me a day before D1 deadline though on the last day I did manage to be the consensus townread when we just needed one, town just had a lot of lucky breaks here
Mini Theme 2315: played as a goose, it was great until I PoEed the last two scum down to HPE and Hu Tao but Hu managed to wriggle her way out of ELO while I was just starting to actually explain anything
Micro Theme 1093: well this was a game that technically existed, lol, there was no real pushes D1 then we locked right onto scum the next 2 days
Open 892: was one of tied D1 wagons and couldn't recover from it the next day due to the nomination mechanic only allowing 3 players to be voted on
Open 900: got suspicion from a couple of townies D1 but obvtowned as much as I can by putting my foot down and insisting we yeet scumDrew, then got paranoia voted in ELO anyway without me even posting
Mafia Reunion: was a pretty mixed bag, Dan and Titus really scumread me and the traitors both were gunning for me even though I was townreading their cult leaders
Open 903: barely present this game, the IC started up a wagon on me

(Hmm I may like talking about myself too much )

[Prism]

Not partnered. I've gone further with my partners, but it's uncommon.

There still isn't too much point in pre-flipping. It's just an incidental side comment from ISOing.

[Prism]

Enchant may i ask you to check with mod and claim gimlis dream votes too if you may

What are you hoping to get out of tracking down who voted for Flood?

Honestly this just feels like scum trying to seem busy

The people who started this are ActionDan and I. Kirigiri and I've just followed up, though I am waiting for Aureal first.

Does this change your perspective on the other 3?

[Prism]

Started this were ActionDan and Ravens*

[Prism]

Heads up to expect some erraticism the next few days. I'm juggling several stressors, and I'll be traveling for the next 4 days. I expect the trip to be emotionally turbulent.

I will try to stay level and chip in when I can, but apologies if I am scattered or irritable.

[Prism]

DnD (7): Silver Ravens, Prism, Von Payne, Enchant, ActionDan, ?, ?
Superman (6): Silver Ravens, Prism, Von Payne, Kyoko Kirigiri, Enchant, ActionDan
Parts (5): Prism, Von Payne, Kyoko Kirigiri, Enchant, ActionDan
Pitchfork (4): Silver Ravens, Kyoko Kirigiri, ?, ?
Flooding (1): ?
Trigonometry (1): ?

Didn't vote (2 players): Catgirl Chipotle

Superman & Parts are fully accounted for. We're missing 1 nonvoter, 2 DnD votes, 2 pitchfork votes, 1 flood, 1 trig.

We're missing Ydrasse, Aureal, Sunflower. It's strange that Sunflower didn't vote Parts given that they perfectly guessed the mechanic. Or someone is lying, which would be ideal!

[Prism]

Ydrasse did you forget to vote you mousefodder?

[Prism]

Interestingly the flood and trig voters have to be different people.

[Prism]

WE HAVE LIARS IN OUR MIDST

EXCELLENT

[Prism]

Unless I miscounted time to doublecheck

[Prism]

Nope. We've got 7 claimed Superman voters but only 6 votes.

1. Dan
2. Ravens
3. Prism
4. Kirigiri
5. Ydrasse
6. Enchant
7. Von Payne

[Prism]

Updated:

DnD (7): Silver Ravens, Prism, Von Payne, Enchant, ActionDan, Ydrasse, ?
Superman (7): Silver Ravens, Prism, Von Payne, Kyoko Kirigiri, Enchant, ActionDan, Ydrasse
Parts (6): Prism, Von Payne, Kyoko Kirigiri, Enchant, ActionDan, ?
Pitchfork (5): Silver Ravens, Kyoko Kirigiri, Ydrasse, ?, ?
Flooding (1): ?
Trigonometry (1): ?

Didn't vote (1 player): Catgirl Chipotle

Superman is fully accounted for. We're missing 2 pitchfork votes, 1 DnD vote, 1 part vote, 1 flood, 1 trig. We're unlikely to catch a liar here.

Sunflower, Aureal?

[Prism]

I understand, and I'm sorry it happened that way. I'm looking forward to playing with you again sometime.

Can you be more explicit about your role? This sounds like a watcher that only sees Bad Dream visitors?

[Prism]

It's surprising to see you target Sunflower. You didn't have a townread on them and your energy explicitly focused on other slots. I also don't see a reason to believe they'd be nightkilled beyond their night posting, especially after I'd just started tearing into the slot.

[Prism]

With the claim and votes in order there isn't much left to do this day. Depending on Aureal's role, I'd probably flip Von Payne into (Ravens, Kirigiri, Catgirl, Sunflower) in later days.

[Prism]

I'm not voting yet so others can check in, but I don't mind ending the day.

[Prism]

VOTE: Aureal

With the claim and votes in order there isn't much left to do this day. Depending on Aureal's role, I'd probably flip Von Payne into (Ravens, Kirigiri, Catgirl, Sunflower) in later days.

The names in the parenthesis are ordered S->T. I haven't done a lot of preflipping and only a mild amount of reading. If anything happens to me, best of luck everyone and it's been fun.

[Prism]

I'm also now a very bad choice for the neighborhood IMO given I'll be traveling the entire night, but if selected I will do what I can.

[Prism]

I don’t rlly think kirigiri is a wolf tho

My order is more like Von Payne/Ravens, gap, then Catgirl/Kirigiri/Sunflower in a bunch. I decided not to spend much time on Dan, and maybe that's a mistake, but oh well.

[Prism]

I completely forgot about Twilight. Nifty.

[Prism]

I reverse image searched Aureal's Role PM and got this:



I'm in class right now so I can't listen to the sound but "UCC" is giving me flashbacks to the dark days of studying contracts.

[Prism]

I told fferyllt all about a neighborhood food vendor trying to teach me about the sovereign citizen movement through the Uniform Commercial Code so I'm convinced this is intentional.

[Prism]

What is your question? The dependent clause were reads assuming she flipped scum and that we didn't need to radically shift perspective.

[Prism]

If you're wondering specifically about "role" over "alignment", scum neighborizer is another example where the suggestion would be different.

[Prism]

I don't remember you to be like this before.

Is this new meta.

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: Yes, but also no.

[Prism]

Actually I think I spoke too soon. Rule 9 points to a scum role which was in the previous game (I need to refresh myself on details of roles there).

Depending on how they classify a dream, the Vi effect may qualify. I would stay open to another.

[Prism]

Aureal's role seems to satisfy rule 14.

[Prism]

Ydrasse I stumbled on this post again and chuckled:

Hum. How am I supposed to respect your interest in being understood if you’re going to be difficult out of a sense of playfulness and teasing. Or power.

This is the most seen Ydrasse has ever felt in her life and she hates it.

[Prism]

Congratulations to the scumteam! It was a very funny ending, and I enjoyed the game despite my more limited involvement. I have a few things from Day 1 I wanted to respond to but never did, so we'll see if I get around to it. While I have fun with my dead PT commentary, I was never upset at any point. I loved playing, but I probably loved spectating even more. Thanks to morph for running it.

I really enjoyed playing with everyone, so thank you. Hopefully I can play with you again soon. (especially Aureal, who never really got a chance!)

[Prism]

This is literally the first time in a decade that I really got to just enjoy the game without caring so much about the result.

I never really -mind- losing in the sense that I always tried my best, learned from the errors, and accepted when I wasn't good enough. This one was different in that I really wasn't that invested in winning and was just along for the ride. I tried things out but didn't try to move mountains. It was really nice.

[Prism]

i accept constructive criticism. btw. in fact i encourage constructive criticism.

Spoiler: Wall

My read on fire had many counterintuitive and interlocking parts.

First, the idea I could possibly be reaction testing was wild. I always mean what I say, even if I have clear conceptions of infirmities & their prospective implications backing up the words. I don't bluff reads or reasoning, and I play them instantly without any strategic withholding. After spending my first four years messing around with a variety of tools, this is a strategy I set in 2014 and basically haven't touched since.

Second, I in fact reaction tested you and bluffed it. My entire reasoning after the unvote was completely made up. I was at the jazz bar, saw Jupiter's reasoning briefly while getting a drink, but missed the bulk of yours. It was chaotic, my attention short and split around, so my literacy was low. I thought "Terrible read and fire shouldn't have let it go without comment." I saw fire's actual reasoning a bit later. I didn't like it but it was no longer worst of all time territory, so I just unvoted.

Third, after thinking about explaining my silly skimming, I decided that I would spice up my decade-old meta and be an old dog trying a new trick. (Or rather, revisiting an even older one.) While I hated fire's return vote and the lack of reevaluation, I decided to retroactively frame my initial vote as a reaction to fire and not Jupiter. I took a very sharp interrogative approach that was 80% bullshit, and I concocted the Dragon comparison to directly tie in a personal expectation.

Fire esponded to my critique of the "surgical" point by contrasting it with a holistic read, but I already knew what fire originally meant from the start. I didn't mind retroactively fitting the square block in the round hole because it also gave me a good side door into pointing out my actual meta difference and seeing how fire evaluated it.

I think that strong meta break experiment was fun and successful, but passed over the chance to capitalize. I knew playing more aggressively would likely yield a decisive result, but I sacrificed the advantage and decided to play it slower and low-effort for the sake of my larger stylistic goals. I don't regret that choice.

Fire probably already knows and rightfully never cared, but if it is helpful the night posting from when I was killed was an instant scumread.

[Prism]

For Dragon, you wrote a wall on me at some point Day 1. You mixed up the timeline of various posts, which makes the bulk of the argument collapse in on itself. I didn't point it out because I was curious to see what would happen if I didn't, and the answer was nothing.

I intended to point out the error and address the remaining debris on Day 2 and since, but I'm lazy and currently in a time crunch.

[Prism]

All of that is basically off of month+ old memories at this point so sorry if there are errors, hopefully you get the gist anyway if there are.

[Prism]

For Dragon, you wrote a wall on me at some point Day 1. You mixed up the timeline of various posts, which makes the bulk of the argument collapse in on itself. I didn't point it out because I was curious to see what would happen if I didn't, and the answer was nothing.

I intended to point out the error and address the remaining debris on Day 2 and since, but I'm lazy and currently in a time crunch.

This is 608. Might be a fun exercise to revisit if you get bored. The debris I'm remembering appears to be from a previous post about my meta comparison. Doing the legwork, ie. pulling and contextualizing quotes, to address the rationality of my position is definitely too much excavation right now for a purely academic exercise. The strength of my belief in the conclusion's accuracy, distinct from my belief in its rationality, was always a narrow and half-hearted commitment waiting for more information.

[Prism]

I wasn't surprised by anything in the scum PT. For fire, I think it is worth considering how quickly my degree of influence can change. It was solved by nightkill, but that decision came down later. I'm not convinced that you gained anything any benefit at all for getting scumread, other than saved effort.

[Prism]

The fact I'm bothering to critique a small implementation tradeoff is a compliment in several respects, if that isn't clear.

[Prism]

I'm grateful for Jupiter's comments, too, and enjoyed their presence. I just never really know what to say for things like this: I take too much joy in working out the granular details.

[Prism]

I wasn't surprised by anything in the scum PT. For fire, I think it is worth considering how quickly my degree of influence can change. It was solved by nightkill, but that decision came down later. I'm not convinced that you gained anything any benefit at all for getting scumread, other than saved effort.

Perhaps I take it for granted that avoiding my scumread takes little, if any, effort.

[Prism]

I've got time to do a more general breakdown+individualized notes, but they'll be broken up.

Before I get into individualized commentary, it might help to collect my global mechanical commentary in one post. We made many fumbles here and they are all simple fixes. The explanations are abbreviated, so don't expect completeness.

1. Even if she was universally scumread, Kyoko should have never been voted. This is because she had a third invention to give out. Town gets more power and information at a very low cost by waiting to vote her until Day 4.

2. Ravens should have been voted out Day 4 almost instantly. This was findable in many different ways.

(a) Ravens claimed to intentionally pass over a watcher shot for an unknown. This bet makes little sense as town given the prior dream power reveals.
(b) Ravens claimed the existence of a fourth scum dream selection mechanic (Flipped scum can dream, Vi mechanic, public hijack, claimed private hijack). This is very implausible: town will get a chance to play the game. I was already skeptical of three, but with three confirmed a fourth would be absolutely terrible and unfathomable game design.
(c) Ravens' claimed private hijack differed from the public hijack. This would be a bizarre duplicative powersplit to give to the scumteam, and no town player claimed responsibility for it.
(d) The late claim to the reporter shot from Enchant.

Some of these are sufficient alone, others merely strongly indicative, but all in conjunction are overwhelming. Sifting through the mechanics took a bit of time and effort, but at the end of the day none of the above points were very hidden or especially difficult to spot. Catgirl was my top scumread before the cc, but, still unspoiled, I became very sure the dayplay should be thrown in the trash as each point clicked.

3. Reading your role PM and voting for dreams remains undefeated in 2024, RIP. This is also (part of) why other players need to ask for full role details instead of leaving them a black box if the person looks town.

First 5 comments:

Spoiler: ActionDan

Obviously you are experienced, well-rounded, and a bit old-school in a way that I find both comforting and paradoxically refreshing. I don't have many substantive comments: I think you played the game correctly up until the Kyoko vote. I empathize with putting some trust in the person who gave you a watcher shot, compromising, and not dying on every hill. But compromising is negotiation, not capitulation. Catgirl possessed no special mechanical indicator of Kyoko's alignment, and I think there were clear signs it wasn't a read made with rigor and a level head.

Even putting aside all of the Alisae dynamic, the second Kyoko claimed to still have an invention to hand out, the choice to leash it is clear. I think you were in an ideal position to intervene and lay out the mechanically optimal play.

Spoiler: Enchant

When you replaced in, I joked that we needed divine intervention. I wasn't actually worried about anything and thought you a fine replacement, I just figured you'd get a kick out of it.

What I didn't expect was for you to be the most mechanically competent and well-rounded town player in the game, alive or dead. It was very impressive, and I thought about how rapidly you'd grown since Iceland. Then I realized it wasn't fast at all: that game was already three years ago. Compared to my first five years of playing, the last nine really flied.

It was a cool experience to watch you grow into a well-rounded and very capable player, especially one that still has light-hearted fun and enjoys the game. Thank you.

Spoiler: Gimli

You were pleasant while you were around and gave the game enthusiasm and passion that made it fun, like I was missing out when I was stuck elsewhere. I think the blowup with Black was unfortunate, in that I agreed with you, but forum mafia investment levels are always going to range greatly.

Unfortunately I can't say more about your gameplay: most of it was on the periphery of my focus. Obviously you are too quick and confident in your reads, but it's difficult to get more granular about where without rereading from scratch. Any one townread is likely to be right, but as the bloc grows the chance of error skyrockets and there's probably a benefit to raising the bar of entry.

As a last matter, I concurred with morph and the scum PT posts that quoting your PT was out of bounds. I was already leaning that you were town, but it solidified it. The issue is that if you were drafting those posts in the PT as scum, morph would have intervened and shut it down. It was only because they were genuine note thoughts, not explicitly fake drafts, that morph was never worried about it before it happened. (confirmed by their lock)

Spoiler: Black

I've been wanting to play with you for awhile after loosely spectating some of the Newbie games. I think this was a bad start for a few reasons, several of them my fault.

First, I didn't spend enough time reading you on Day 1. This procrastination compounded on Day 2 and I was convinced I'd need to meta you to get anything conclusive. In hindsight I should have engaged earlier, and we probably could have meaningfully connected if I started early.
Second, while I didn't like Gimli's phrasing, I did take his side on the blowup. Forums games have a range of investment, and it's natural to be upset when someone isn't putting in as much effort as another. Almost all of us are busy and sacrificing things for the game. I wasn't thrilled with Gimli's response, but I don't think either of you really navigated that correctly, and it made for an unpleasant phase.
Third, I was overly harsh in the dead PT around the last few days. Part of being town is being sure of yourself and unsure of others, but I felt you overcombative and unempathetic, needing to at least acknowledge why other players felt certain ways without your role PM in hand. I liked your final day posting significantly more and appreciated the effort, so I'm sorry for being so harsh in the spec PT.

I know you said you were averse and bad at it, but you should spend more time on the mechanics. I went over why the Ravens vote shouldn't have happened from a few different angles, and it is very frustrating to get no dream votes. Depending on the powers that might have instantly lost the game, which would in turn wast dozens of hours of town effort because of simple negligence.

Spoiler: Doctor Drew

I really didn't engage with you much, so I don't have too much to say, but you're just a pleasant player to be around. You never seem to take scumreads or disagreements too harshly or personally, and it makes it easy to stay civil. Thanks for always trying to spice things up and keep it fun.

[Prism]

Still hoping I can get to everyone, but if not, I am hoping to play again over the summer. I should be free starting May 8th, so invite me if you'd like to play and think the game would be a good fit. I favor opens and themes.