Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[Korts]

I can see your point of view.

He was a bit too obvious, though. Buddying up, incriminating me, red herring for the town, I don't have much else I can reply with.

Anyway, I'll finish analysing Yos' posts tomorrow.

[roflcopter]

I can see your point of view.

He was a bit too obvious, though. Buddying up, incriminating me, red herring for the town, I don't have much else I can reply with.

well that was thoroughly unconvincing

[Korts]

Well, convincing's my middle name. Mind you, not very is the first.

Anyway, there's not much I can reply with to an accusation that doesn't relate to an action of mine. You don't, I hope, expect me to explain Yos' possible motives for doing whatever he did.

[destructor]

Mmm. Yosarian's reach on des might have been a distancing attempt, especially since he kept reiterating that he wasn't attacking des for the points he raised, merely questioning him.

What?! You think we were

distancing?!

Vote: Korts

L-2

Mod:

Can Elmo be prodded? I think it's been 72 hours now.
I'm getting wary of his inactivity. We need to hear what he's thinking asap.

[vollkan]

I can't explain it much better than this: to me, as town, it makes sense to either take a BS case apart when I first see it, or if I want the pressured player to defend himself first, I don't even mention it. As scum, however, it would make sense to ever so slightly discredit said BS case without actually refuting it regardless of the pressured player's alignment. I guess my "proof" is my own hypothetical play in the situation.

But why would it not make sense, as town, to let the person self-defend? Nothing you say in the above has any relation to that. You've said what you think town would do, and you explain why there could be a scum motivation for not intervening, but you're leaving a silence on the town motivation.

And making it about what "you" would do in the situation is really beside the point. Obviously, we all have to judge things, to a degree, based on our own ideas about what we would do. But that's no justification for simply standing adamant on your own conception of what

you

would do when a reasonable alternative is presented.

the killing of a mafia member proves beyond a doubt that there have been kills missing these past two days. something to keep in mind.

Yeah, we now have confirmation that there is either a SK or a vig in the game

Mmm. Yosarian's reach on des might have been a distancing attempt, especially since he kept reiterating that he wasn't attacking des for the points he raised, merely questioning him. On the other hand, I seem to remember having read an accusation of Yos defending DGB (forb I think it was). Anyway, I'll read Yos' posts in isolation and see if I can find something.

How does Yos's hedging of himself suggest he was distancing with Des?

I mean, his attacks were crappy - but that doesn't tell us whether he was distancing, or just failing as scum. Des was under no threat from any of his arguments, so the fact he hedged himself only really indicates that he was aware that he had dug himself into a hole, and was trying to avoid accountability for it.

And the flip side of that is that the rebuttal coming from Des was very damning of Yos.

I dont know, rolf. Yos messed twice with Korts' name. I mean, if they were scumpartners he would think twice before confusing him with Kison, right?

Possibly, but I don't think that's really an assumption we can rely on.

He was a bit too obvious, though. Buddying up, incriminating me, red herring for the town, I don't have much else I can reply with.

That same logic would defeat your point about Yos's hedging his case - why make his distancing so obvious? (as I have said, though, I don't think he was hedging to protect Des-scum but, rather, was hedging to cover himself)

[Adel]

Mod:

Can Elmo be prodded? I think it's been 72 hours now.

A prod has been sent.

[Adel]

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

votecount as of post 880

_{with 9 alive, 5 will lynch before deadline}

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

¬Korts:

3

:Raging Rabbit, roflcopter, destructor
DrippingGoofball:

1

:forbiddanlight,

No Lynch:

none

not voting:

5

:DrippingGoofball, Elmo, Korts, populartajo, vollkan,

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Day 3's deadline is December 26th at 12:28 (UTC)

Countdown timer to deadline

[DrippingGoofball]

vollkan is still alive? He's done little more than bus.

[DrippingGoofball]

Well hello Elmo. You're reading the theme park. I hope we'll get a post.

[Elmo]

Loosely, yeah. I'm irritated by the degree to which this game seems to have slipped away from me, circumstances notwithstanding. I was around halfway through a reread yesterday when I folded up, so I should probably get it done today. (I am coughing up icky stuff, fwiw.)

[Raging Rabbit]

than you stay on BM after having admitted you don't have any real reason to suspect him anymoe

You are pushing this point like it's especially damning. I like keeping my vote out somewhere, and usually when I don't have any leads it's my most recent suspect who gets the honor.

than you OMGUS me on a really weak basis which I quickly disprove and you unvote.

See, it didn't happen that way. You presented a weak case on me. I answered your points. You kept pushing on the same ill-founded reasons. So I voted you for pushing a crap case. There's no OMGUS there (and I'm not even taking into account that OMGUS doesn't exist in practise)./quote]

Your vote was based on not liking how you thought my case was just a followup on my earlier bad gut, which as you yourself admitted later isn't a scumtell.

My focal point is that all of your cases had very little to none at all behind them, and you never invested yourself too strongly in one. They just seem like a tool for you to keep moving your vote around and appear to be scumhunting, which I don't think you are.

Yos being mafia further strengthens my suspicion, I had a feeling you were connected before but wanted to question Yos on his point of view first.

Yos asking questions about the case of you isn't an obvious defence as you tried to present it, it's more like casting an air of doubt on it and allowing himself room for either a bus or a more blatant defence should the situation arise.
You on the other hand have been very non-comittal on Yos, saying you don't see any proof of him being scum and later when more attention was going his way that you see him as slightly scummy, again giving yourself lots of leeway to change your read in whichever way you liked.

Meanwhile, the debate between Yos and des doesn't seem to give proof of either one being scum. Yos seems to be slightly reaching, while des seems to be extrapolating Yos's scumminess from the fact that Yos is slightly reaching. Of the three main participants of that line of discussion (Yos, des, vollkan), vollkan seems to be the one who chimes in for personal motives.

The Yosarian-suspicion I agree with to a lesser extent. I don't really see vollkan as scummy, though...

What changed?

[Raging Rabbit]

Quote tags got screwed up, here's the post in a less confusing format:

than you stay on BM after having admitted you don't have any real reason to suspect him anymoe

You are pushing this point like it's especially damning. I like keeping my vote out somewhere, and usually when I don't have any leads it's my most recent suspect who gets the honor.

than you OMGUS me on a really weak basis which I quickly disprove and you unvote.

See, it didn't happen that way. You presented a weak case on me. I answered your points. You kept pushing on the same ill-founded reasons. So I voted you for pushing a crap case. There's no OMGUS there (and I'm not even taking into account that OMGUS doesn't exist in practise).

Your vote was based on not liking how you thought my case was just a followup on my earlier bad gut, which as you yourself admitted later isn't a scumtell.

My focal point is that all of your cases had very little to none at all behind them, and you never invested yourself too strongly in one. They just seem like a tool for you to keep moving your vote around and appear to be scumhunting, which I don't think you are.

Yos being mafia further strengthens my suspicion, I had a feeling you were connected before but wanted to question Yos on his point of view first.

Yos asking questions about the case of you isn't an obvious defence as you tried to present it, it's more like casting an air of doubt on it and allowing himself room for either a bus or a more blatant defence should the situation arise.
You on the other hand have been very non-comittal on Yos, saying you don't see any proof of him being scum and later when more attention was going his way that you see him as slightly scummy, again giving yourself lots of leeway to change your read in whichever way you liked.

Meanwhile, the debate between Yos and des doesn't seem to give proof of either one being scum. Yos seems to be slightly reaching, while des seems to be extrapolating Yos's scumminess from the fact that Yos is slightly reaching. Of the three main participants of that line of discussion (Yos, des, vollkan), vollkan seems to be the one who chimes in for personal motives.

The Yosarian-suspicion I agree with to a lesser extent. I don't really see vollkan as scummy, though...

What changed?

[Korts]

Your vote was based on not liking how you thought my case was just a followup on my earlier bad gut, which as you yourself admitted later isn't a scumtell.

It was about how your

weak

case was a follow-up. If you had made a stronger case, I would't have "OMGUS"-ed you.

My focal point is that all of your cases had very little to none at all behind them, and you never invested yourself too strongly in one. They just seem like a tool for you to keep moving your vote around and appear to be scumhunting, which I don't think you are.

The cases I made were all as strong as I could find. I didn't invest myself in them strongly because they weren't strong cases. If this is your focal point, it's not a strong one.

What changed?

Didn't I concede that Yos was reaching? That, IMO, pretty much covers deserving suspicion to a lesser extent.

You on the other hand have been very non-comittal on Yos, saying you don't see any proof of him being scum and later when more attention was going his way that you see him as slightly scummy, again giving yourself lots of leeway to change your read in whichever way you liked.

Why don't you FoS everyone who has expressed no suspicion or conflicting reads on Yos? I agree, I have been non-committal on Yos, but I don't see how that's exclusively a stance that scum would take.

[Raging Rabbit]

It was about how your

weak

case was a follow-up. If you had made a stronger case, I would't have "OMGUS"-ed you.

Yes, but it being a follow up was a part of your attack, along with it being weak (and I'm sure it seemed more appealing due to the OMGUS part - it being against you). As you conceded later, the follow up bit doesn't strengthen your case but weakens it, if anything.

The cases I made were all as strong as I could find. I didn't invest myself in them strongly because they weren't strong cases. If this is your focal point, it's not a strong one.

So basically, despite talking a lot, you aren't really doing any scumhunting. I happen to think that's a fine focal point.

Why don't you FoS everyone who has expressed no suspicion or conflicting reads on Yos? I agree, I have been non-committal on Yos, but I don't see how that's exclusively a stance that scum would take.

Nothing is exclusively scummy, but it does make you more likely to be his scumpartner; along with other things.

Didn't I concede that Yos was reaching? That, IMO, pretty much covers deserving suspicion to a lesser extent.

You said that the debate doesn't give proof of either's alignment, and that vollkan, the third participant, was the scummy one. Then suddenly you somewhat agree with the case against Yos and find vollkan pro town.

[forbiddanlight]

It isn't semantics. You accused DGB of committing OMGUS, which she didn't do. The definition of OMGUS isn't a semantic issue at all - it goes to the fact that you can sling it around as an emotively-loaded label when, in reality, it is wrongly used. You also tried re-defining it yourself as "You are attacking me. Oh My God U Suck, I'm going to vote you" and relied on the apparent silence in DGB's post as to her reasons when, in context, the reasons for voting BM were manifestly obvious.

First, since when does OMGUS NOT stand for Oh My God U Suck? I am

not

redefining it. You are. Further, this IS a semantic debate. it is manifestly obvious why I am voting DGB. I don't think the reasons are so manifestly obvious, since she voted him BEFORE he started in with the whole she lied thing (I think?)

More misuse of an emotional label. Hmm.

I grant this, mostly because I got jumbled. I still think that BM was a planned mislynch.

Well, no, actually you haven't. The only points you initially raised on DGB was the (wrong) OMGUS point, and the (context-ignorant) point about her not having explanations. You then later added a point about her seeming "too assured" (which is really just DGB's style of writing)

Then you haven't read my posts. And I have no need to debate you if you won't do that.

It's some basic vote count analysis. Scum know who each other are and so it's usually safe to assume that their play will be influenced by how their buddies vote. I split my suspects into those on ckd's wagon and those off because I tend to think scum won't all vote together.

Well, now you've made it WIFOM, but this is an acceptable explanation. I don't like the vibe I get from it but I think I understand it?

Ironically, you seem to be making DGB the scapegoat for BM's lynch now. Hypocrisy is the best!

And if she flips scum? (not that it's unlikely)

Um, actually, vollkan's point was that you used the term OMGUS on something that obviously isn't.

Even though it was. You all debated the semantics of the existence of OMGUS. vollkan only got beyond that. Nice try Korts.

I agree that forb deserves suspicion. The Yosarian-suspicion I agree with to a lesser extent. I don't really see vollkan as scummy, though, and Elmo hasn't contributed a lot to discussion (I am aware of his computer problems, which might in part explain that).

Everyone deserves suspicion. Some more than others. I grant people don't like what I'm saying. I've never excelled at arguing things. But as long as I'm eventually listened to, I'll be happy.

i think yos and des are both town and this feud between them is a big waste of time

Yosarian2, an Inuit Mafia Godfather, has been killed

whoops. Not that it matters. Just slight amusement.

i think the most likely yosarian scumpartner is korts

Why?

yos was way too concerned about why people were wagoning you day one and made it his business to make sure your wagon didn't outcompete ckd's. then the continued expressions of exasperation over the fact that not many people did address his concerns about your wagon. thats the biggest thing.

Thanks. Um...I guess I have to at least read D1 soon, don't I? I'm not gonna do a commentary post but it might change my views. But I'll do this rl tomorrow.

well that was thoroughly unconvincing

This. Too obvious begs WIFOM.

vollkan is still alive? He's done little more than bus.

And defend you along with Korts. I'd like a response to my vote, no matter how weak the case might seem.

[DrippingGoofball]

unvote, vote: Elmo

[forbiddanlight]

unvote, vote: Elmo

Ok...seriously, even if I were to cede vollkan's point on BM (And I won't), what the hell ever happened to reasoning?

[Elmo]

I'm in pretty bad shape, so this may not be too coherant.

Right. I remember CKD saying that keeping him at L-1 would provide a bunch of information later; I don't see it. At least right now, it just doesn't look that informative, and I'm still irritated he didn't actually vote for Korts (although I don't think I said it at the time). If anyone got some keen insight that I've missed, feel free.

It's basically ridiculous to think that Des is scum with Yos.
Yos' speculation about the Guardian kill means that my idea would probably not work since he would have told people what to do via quicktopic, oh well.

Curious about Vollkan's relatively early move against Yos in 411/423. He seems like the type to be afflicted by Stoofer's Syndrome... it's kind of odd, in that I think a bunch of people had the typical YosScum reaction of thinking it was weird but not really going after him for it; he's the only one who pressed him early in the wake of Des. Maybe there's just something specific he looked for, I don't know, but it seems out-of-place. I'm not at all wild about accusations based purely on bussing, especially since I think it's entirely possible he would have found roughly the same stance as town. But it is an oddity, and if you told me for sure that exactly one person was actively bussing Yos, he'd probably be my pick. Which is annoying, because it's the kind of environment you'd figure scum'd be bus-happy, and I think (at least from my perspective) the degree to which he was going down in flames in his debate with Des would necessitate some bussing. I feel if he is scum, though, there should be more than that independantly, which does not spring to mind. Eh.

CKD makes an interesting point that in 338, Vollkan basically agrees with his stance. But his random (?) vote is still on CKD, at 5/8 to lynch. I missed why Why?

rofl's stance on Des looks precisely like how I've seen townies in similar situations before. So I still think he's very townish. It's relatively easy to have the stance he had (Yos, scummie, manipulative, etc), but scum will rarely if ever make any kind of comment outright directing attention away from someone under pressure, and I feel it's tricky to fake properly.

DGB is trying desperately to play to a meta. In fact, I'm starting to feel DGB is being an intentional distraction while scum-Yos lurks away. Unvote, Vote: DGB

Seriously, BM, are you doing this purposely? This vote is even less justified.

Hey, Korts, what's the thought process behind this post?

FL feels pretty townish upon entry. I remember that Sens response felt decent, too. (Also, I since learned that Sens had RL issues, I think, which changes the interpretation of the lurking a bit.) Hum. Yos pressing on Sensfan seens opportunistic enough that I give her slight town points for it.

if I were to die this moment…and I flip town, who would be on your scum list..would it change?

you won't, but i'll humor you. if you flip town, i would have to take a very close look at yos and vollkan

Why those two specifically? Given he did flip town, what did your very close look turn up?

Raging Tabbit's 441 is interesting. He actually outlines a good case against Yos, but ends up with FoS: Yos, Vote: Korts, when his stated reasons against Yos look stronger to me. Perhaps that's 40:40 hindsight.

Curious. I don't think Vollkan is scum is Yos + Korts.

Korts thing with Tajo circa 559 looks bad. Somewhat OMGUSsy, maybe.

It's unusual how there's a sort of pause between Vollkan attacking Yos and Yos trying to throw suspicion on him, which seems to start around 598. It's generally best to start that as soon as possible, I think.. and he did it pretty much immediately with Des, I wonder if the scumgroup discussed some kind of plan before going for that. I don't think that reflects anything on Voll's alignment, though. (He actually says he'd be willing to see Voll lynched in 600. I didn't remember that.)

DGB, why did you decide to start a wagon from scratch on BM

one single day

from deadline? Are you perhaps trying suddenly to disassociate yourself from the CKD wagon now that you've pushed it almost to the finish line?

This post is like Korts is failing at being Yos2. (Okay, earlier, I think Yos2 failed at being Yos2 wrt Des, but whatever.)

I think Yos asking about the case on Korts could easily have Korts as either alignment. He could be looking to join a town wagon if it looks like a good pick, or (possibly) he could be trying to figure out where people stand on a scumbuddy and maybe get the heat off him.

Korts needs to give reasons for his BM vote in 729, unless he did before and I missed them.

Does anyone here have a meta on Vollkan?

Meanwhile, the debate between Yos and des doesn't seem to give proof of either one being scum. Yos seems to be slightly reaching, while des seems to be extrapolating Yos's scumminess from the fact that Yos is slightly reaching. Of the three main participants of that line of discussion (Yos, des, vollkan),

vollkan seems to be the one who chimes in for personal motives

.

THIS POST SUCKS.

Korts apparent lack of insight where he says Yos2 was trying to buddy up to/incriminate him shortly after he throws suspicion on me because Yos went out of his way to say he wasn't voting me when he had no reason to vote for me in the first place is bizarre at best. Uh, hello, is this thing on?

Tih is probably really disjointed, probably, but something > nothing, right? Hopefully this

So, yeah.. I think Yos was being bussed. A bunch of people (Des, Rofl, Tajo) are probably town. Korts is still scummy and not getting any better throughout. Beyond that, I have an irritating lack of.. handholds, I suppose. FL and DGB seem slightly townish, DGB based on a couple things but nothing really solid. Raging Rabbit is only the really odd one out, and he hasn't done anything terrible either. So I'm missing something. I'm... still fine with Korts dying, but I'm unhappy about figuring out who his buddies are supposed to be if he is scum. Muargh.

It would be more than cool if people asked me questions. (Ths still technically counts as today, since I haven't slept yet, DGB! )

[DrippingGoofball]

unvote, vote: Elmo

Ok...seriously, even if I were to cede vollkan's point on BM (And I won't), what the hell ever happened to reasoning?

I've already pointed out that he's lurking, obviously, that's the reasoning.

[DrippingGoofball]

Elmo, thanks for contributing.

Your post lacks something important.

A vote.

[roflcopter]

we should lynch before scum make their kill for the day

its interesting that yos chose to lurkerhunt sens but made no mention of the equally lurking elmo

[forbiddanlight]

unvote, vote: Elmo

Ok...seriously, even if I were to cede vollkan's point on BM (And I won't), what the hell ever happened to reasoning?

I've already pointed out that he's lurking, obviously, that's the reasoning.

I must have missed that. But lurker votes on D3? Seriously?

[Korts]

Ok, time for the claim. I'm a compulsive vig.

D1, I killed Guardian.
D2, I killed Kison.
Today, I killed Yos.

Basically, that's my story.

[DrippingGoofball]

Thanks for killing townie players, especially those that hint at power roles. Players that aren't even contenders for the lynch.

unvote, vote: Korts

[DrippingGoofball]

unvote, vote: Elmo

Ok...seriously, even if I were to cede vollkan's point on BM (And I won't), what the hell ever happened to reasoning?

I've already pointed out that he's lurking, obviously, that's the reasoning.

I must have missed that. But lurker votes on D3? Seriously?

Yeah, nothing wrong with that.