Mini Normal 2303 [Postgame!!!!]

[Something_Smart]

Wow, apparently I'm late to the party.

[Something_Smart]

Cook's posts reminded me you exist and this one also similarly wants to see more out of you, so have a notification.

Notification doesn't help, but I have not forgotten about the game, just haven't had time to catch up with everything. My weekends are typically pretty busy, I should be catching up either later tonight or tomorrow.

[Something_Smart]

i don’t like it and think its wheels might have been greased by scum somehow

Do you think you're particularly likely to flail when wagoned, and scum know this? Or why do scum want this wagon to be a thing

[Something_Smart]

1) She says, "man i’m having a real hard time following this game! y’all are posting so much" which is a fairly common sentiment to see in games but I can't say I've ever seen it on page 5.

to be fair to Cook, this game's first few pages are an incomprehensible mess, even by RVS standards.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: HighPrincessErinys

I like this post

[Something_Smart]

how come?

159 seems to deny the value of weird/unexpected situations to generate reactions, especially early on. It's also a bit LAMIST, so possibly scummy on its own (though it is more likely just Erin's genuine belief). So voting Erin after it is reasonable, and naked voting is a good way to make a counterpoint to Erin's point, by creating a weird situation and gauging its reaction.

[Something_Smart]

The number of people taking 365 seriously is shocking to me.

But I guess I'm more numb to weird antics than many people.

[Something_Smart]

i don't like that mason claim, ESPECIALLY now that it fell flat.

This is interesting. So you think the mason claim was scummy even ignoring the fact that Invisibility denied it. Does that mean you think it clearly wasn't serious? Or that you think it was serious but a gigabrain scum play for some reason?

[Something_Smart]

idk if there was really a world where anyone could take that mason claim seriously considering it came out of nowhere and involved Invis ("Stop playing Invis" even though she currently was not being pushed nor was pushing italiano or anything similar.

I think at least happy, Invis, and Asri took it seriously.

[Something_Smart]

Why aren't you mentioning Ausuka. This one never said how serious they think the claim is btw.

Ausuka obviously didn't believe the claim was real.

[Something_Smart]

What planet you on where you say Asri believed it but Ausuka didn't?

I didn't say you believed it, I said you treated it like a serious claim.

It would be very weird (and concerning) to vote someone and demand a claim because they made a joke.

[Something_Smart]

oops

I will play game tomorrow for sure. probably tonight. we will see

[Something_Smart]

Shitty read I think Asri/Hu Tao is not S/S.

I will have non-shitty things to say in a bit

[Something_Smart]

I think you should read the Italiano / Invisibility / iamveryhappy interactions.

I'm not sure why but I get the feeling that this doesn't come from scum speaking to town.

Maybe I'm just grasping at straws though, but tbh that's my entire mafia career.

[Something_Smart]

Let me word my question better. If you had to give a scumcase on me no matter how much you townread me, what would you scumcase me for?

oh this is a town post isn't it, but I don't have to like it.

[Something_Smart]

not that it makes him townier to me, but that the play was made to try to regain towncred

I don't understand, do you think there's a world where Italiano doesn't walk back that claim? Or what exactly about the walkback looked like a grab for towncred (I'm not really sure what he'd have to be on to think any of that would give him towncred)

[Something_Smart]

i'm not italiano, i didn't claim mason and get shut down

Neither did he, he made an obvious joke/exaggeration and people took it seriously for some reason.

[Something_Smart]

Also not liking this.

I'll throw a +1 here, it is an extremely easy and level 1 read to make.

[Something_Smart]

I feel like Ausuka is making too much sense to be scum and I say this because last time I saw her as scum she just pretended she didn't know anything and then nobody paid attention to her.

[Something_Smart]

black is one of my stronger townreads rn (along with you!) and i think it is extremely bad news for the game if one of my strongest townreads is tunneled on another one

I didn't agree with the black read (though I'm now tempted to sheep yours) but I mostly just feel like this is same old and not cause for alarm.

Maybe it's just because every game my townreads are the ones that everyone wants to kill. But am I wrong to read this post, like, 10% more showy than I'm comfortable with? For sure it is a very easy thing to bring up and try to look like the more reasonable party.

[Something_Smart]

I hate pages 34-35

[Something_Smart]

What do you mean by this?

The last bit? My reads tend to be for reasons that don't make sense to others, and rightly so, because they're historically pretty bad.

[Something_Smart]

What basis for this read at all?

People tend not to forget their partners

[Something_Smart]

calls one of Happy's posts a "town post"...easy post for scum to make

why would scum make that post?

[Something_Smart]

I might not be the best person to ask this cos it might sound like an ego thing but @SS, in the game I think you're referring to I had 775 posts and had to chain 4 miselims on my own in a game with two masons and a vig still alive. I think i was also pretty townread when you were around. Why is it exactly that you think I wouldn't be able to make sense as scum?

Anyone can make sense as scum. Not making sense is a lot harder, and that's why you did well in that game. If someone appears competent and logical, and then they chain 4 mislims, that's gonna raise some eyebrows. My understanding of how you played that game (admittedly limited because I died early) is that you deliberately made yourself look like you weren't playing a good game, so people wouldn't sus you for having bad reads.

And I don't think you're doing that here.

[Something_Smart]

I think the first person to go "hey wait a minute S_S is obvscum lol" is usually town (and it happens at some point in like 80% of games I play in, although this one's earlier than most) which matches with the intuition I had that Black was actually town despite me not liking her posts (there is surely a stylistic clash going on here that makes it hard to be objective).

I'm just curious what exactly you think my plan is if I'm scum here, Black.

[Something_Smart]

Town cred

If you think a post is not towny but can be made for towncred, it must mean that (a) a majority of people would read that behavior as towny, and (b) that behavior is not actually towny.

What exactly is the behavior that satisfies (a) there? I generally see people getting disproportionately scumread for asinine hypothetical questions, not the other way around.

[Something_Smart]

I definitely don't think you're obvscum, not sure where you got that idea from my post! I just think you fit the bill for how I would expect the lurky scum to play here

It's a bit of an exaggeration ofc, just trying to fit your play into the pattern of how I'm often treated in games. Usually it's a little later and a little more confident, so it's not a perfect fit, but it's the same vibe.

If you're scum then your plan would be to coast through D1 giving shallow reads for towncred. While simultaneously instigating things and pushing them along

I don't really see where I've been instigating, I try not to do that. I also don't really feel like shallow reads garner much towncred? Anyone can make up reads as scum, that isn't hard. The hard part is faking the authentic thought process behind them, which I haven't shown much of, but which I also evidently haven't really tried to fake.

[Something_Smart]

Why don't you like my posts?

Idk playstyle differences I guess. I got some bad vibes on you while catching up, I can't remember what posts they were from tho.

It probably doesn't help that you were shitfighting a lot with Asri, but I don't think my impression was totally fair, which is part of why I was comfortable dropping it.

[Something_Smart]

I think he hasn't rolled scum in a while but the last scumgame I saw was like, uh, one and a half years ago I think?

God, when

was

the last time I rolled scum? I guess it was this game.

[Something_Smart]

basically @ss i think your impression is somewhat accurate from that game, but just bc she played that way in that game doesn't mean she can't play a different way as scum

ofc, and I'm not saying it makes her necessarily town, it's just a data point.

[Something_Smart]

why use meta when you can use your brain

why make actual reasoned arguments when you can make pointless quips like this

[Something_Smart]

Can you rephrase that as a good faith question/request? (If it was an actual request, otherwise whatever)

[Something_Smart]

this was a half-joking question asking you why you were wasting time answering my shitposts

Well, it might help people understand me to explain that my limiting factor is certainly not time-- I have plenty of time, and those responses didn't take much time. It's really just brainpower/attention, it's hard for me to devote more than a certain amount of that, especially when I know it will be for little reward.

If you want to see more solving from me, the best way is to engage me on particular topics of interest. That way I can be sure someone will actually care about what I say.

[Something_Smart]

I guess there’s a certain level of analysis that I’m used to expecting from SS that he’s not giving this game.

What level?

[Something_Smart]

what did you/do you have to say about black's read of you?

As was pointed out, you can read my posts in the pages preceding this one.

I get scumreads from people unfamiliar with my playstyle all the time. They usually take the form of "he's making pointless posts/asking questions that don't go anywhere and avoiding making any actual arguments". It tends to come from town although it can be scum who thinks they've got a good target (though picking out a green as an easy target probably takes some guts). My content this game has been a little more tangential and sporadic than usual, I can't immediately intuit whether it makes scum more likely to push me, though I'd think it probably does.

I haven't seen anything that indicates that Black's read is in bad faith or disingenuous; I have issues with some of the individual points, but I don't need to repeat them, you can just read my posts. I think cases are generally +town because you're putting yourself out on the line and opening your reasoning up to being picked apart, I don't think this is an exception.

[Something_Smart]

Something Smart, when you can, can you give a rundown on T3's Black vote and why you think it was made?

Weird request. Especially since it seems like T3 talked very little about Black before the vote, and T3 is basically a black box anyway as far as I'm concerned.

So I don't really feel like speculating what Black said that caused T3 to not like her, I think that would just be stabbing in the dark.

[Something_Smart]

What is your read on Cook?

Don't have one at the moment

[Something_Smart]

Cook, you should definitely investigate one of the people who said "cOoK iS tRuEcLaImInG aS sCuM".

Assuming you are town, those are likely to contain the types of people who want a town rolecop dead, i.e. scum PR's.

[Something_Smart]

To clarify, I am Town Odd Night Neapolitan.

odd night cop claims are never real

[Something_Smart]

40 minutes till deadline? damn I picked a bad time to try to read up

[Something_Smart]

I do not like Italiano's claim at all tho

[Something_Smart]

probably hu tao as scum backup watcher seems sorta unlikely?

[Something_Smart]

People on this site care too much about claims.

Guess we don't have to worry about asking them to claim.

[Something_Smart]

I'm going to hammer Ausuka with 10 minutes left on clock I guess unless something drastic happens

Wait, which lim do you prefer between the two?

[Something_Smart]

Pedit: welcome back S_S who are you voting for

I stated that I preferred Hu Tao between the two, it seems we have plenty of available votes for either.

Though I guess you didn't see me say so when you posted that.

[Something_Smart]

You understand how you appearing at this time will be suspicious if Ausaka flips scum in the future?

No. I appeared before anyone started threatening to hammer Ausuka, and despite those threats I have not hammered Hu Tao.

[Something_Smart]

I think 1885 is +town btw

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Something_Smart]

(E-1)

[Something_Smart]

i’m ascetic. the bp call was so that i didn’t get obliterated n1. i had to play scummy town so that mafia wouldn’t shoot me for townleading, because i could not get protted

so you basically knew ausuka's claim was true and italiano's false and you didn't feel like saying anything?

[Something_Smart]

how would i have known italiano was false…?

well do you think there would be a watcher, a rolecop, and a neapolitan on town's side? that seems like an ungodly amount of investigative power

[Something_Smart]

i really should not be trusted with town pr lmao

If you're aware that you aren't this adept with mechanics, you shouldn't be fakeclaiming.

[Something_Smart]

the alternative was getting nk’d

And now you've outed a PR and you're still getting NK'd. That sure seems

so

much better.

[Something_Smart]

We should wait for ItalianoBS to claim his info before we commit to anything.

[Something_Smart]

a funni I think sheep would do is to make the backup watcher a named townie

I don't think that's likely.

[Something_Smart]

Who do you think is scum?

Italiano

[Something_Smart]

-

Why are you assuming Cook is fake and Italiano is real?

[Something_Smart]

Also why are you assuming the watcher is ungated?

[Something_Smart]

Ugh, this is why I hate this game sometimes. I targeted Black last not and my result was “not a vanilla townie”.

Haha, of course you did! What a wacky coincidence.

VOTE: Italiano

[Something_Smart]

If Cook is town, Flower and IVD are scum

If Cook is scum, I think IVD is town and Flower is probably town too

There's no world where Cook's town here, go re-read Ausukas mechposting where she says Cook's scum trueclaiming if there's a vig in the game

-Nameless

Why does scum-Cook tell everyone who the tracker is so the watcher knows who to be on?

[Something_Smart]

Did you miss the setup spec from Ausuka where Vig game = scum!Cook or do you actually believe Cooks new claim?

I believe Cook's new claim. It makes much more sense in the setup than the old one (and than Italiano's claim) and the reasoning, while poor, is believable.

[Something_Smart]

reasoning for faking 1sbp?

Yes.

I could have maybe understood simply claiming rolecop without any modifiers. But the 1sbp is inherently suspicious because it gives an excuse for why you aren't dying, and it screws up setup speculation.

[Something_Smart]

How would these posts be justified by an Ascetic Rolecop Cook?

I mean Cook clearly wanted to appear to scum as a 1-shot BP rolecop. I don't see why those posts don't make sense as furthering that goal.

[Something_Smart]

You really think Cook and I are

this

incompetent as scum? Or what exactly do you think our grand plan is?

[Something_Smart]

Or are you just unable to comprehend how anyone could see things differently from you?

[Something_Smart]

Not trying to be insulting, but I really want to know what here makes you want to tunnel me. Because it seems like you're just being tribalistic and going after people who disagree with you.

[Something_Smart]

Why does mafia tracker make 0 sense? I've definitely seen them before.

[Something_Smart]

There's definitely not a scum watcher. But why are you assuming there's no town watcher?

Red herring backup is rare, you should need extraordinary evidence to believe it's the most likely scenario.

[Something_Smart]

I wish you would just post the steps of the proof instead of posting the assumptions and making me figure out what you mean. It's not that I necessarily couldn't if I tried, but it seems unnecessary.

[Something_Smart]

Why arent more people bothered with Cook claiming 1-Shot BP Rolecop with Ausuka pointing out that if there's a vig then Cook's probably trueclaiming scum and then after the vig shoots and Ausuka flips town her claim suddenly changes to one that isn't a blatant scumclaim

How is mafia tracker too complicated for sheep but mafia 1-shot BP rolecop is fair game? That seems like a weird inconsistency.

[Something_Smart]

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the right one.

The obvious answer is that odd-night cop claims are never real, because they aren't.

[Something_Smart]

Odd-night cop is literally the perfect claim for scum. You can invent one result to suit your agenda, but you don't have to provide so many results that you end up narrowing down your own team. It gives an excuse for why you don't die N2 (you can't do anything anyway) and then by D4 it's elo or close to it so it will be hard for "why are you still alive?" to get traction.

[Something_Smart]

Me too but sadly in this case it's pretty necessary, sorry

Why?

[Something_Smart]

I don't think I'm gonna follow your argument.

Are you also assuming scum don't have a ninja? That seems like a wild and unfounded assumption.

[Something_Smart]

Tracker and rolecop can't get green checks, so if I'm assuming they only check town, then they have basically 0 info. I really don't see what you're getting at.

[Something_Smart]

Because there's a Vig in the game and that's the kind of thing where if scum have no counter to it a Mafia 1-Shot Bulletproof Rolecop gets suggested to address it during review.

I don't think this is a thing that happens during reviews? Mafia bulletproof is not a "counter" to a vig, it's a random slap in the face.

[Something_Smart]

If we have 5 Town PRs (With 3 info roles and a vig) are you unironically suggesting that scum gets 0 compensation in the form of PRs?

There are three scum, they don't all have to be PR's; having no goons on a team is pretty rare. And like I said, ninja is the most likely scum PR, considering we have a tracker and a watcher, so tracker results wouldn't even necessarily mean much.

[Something_Smart]

He should already have experience with someone carelessly adding a Town Vigilante and needing to suggest some sort of counterbalance and this is making me feel like he's twisting mech for an agenda

Can you link to a review where this happened?

I would never suggest this as a counter to vig. I don't think Isis or Koba would either. But I've been wrong before.

[Something_Smart]

Case in point. You'd add Mafia 1-Shot BP in a Vig game so that the Vig can shoot limbait without just straight up soloing the game by shooting all the Mafia, how is this a new concept for you?

When balancing, I assume that a vig shot is equivalent to a lim (except that it can land on a town PR). If I would put an ungated vig in a mini, which I would not, I wouldn't consider the case where the vig shoots all the scum to be bad-- scum weren't going to win anyway.

[Something_Smart]

2-shot seems too weak, no modifier seems too strong

Too weak?? 2-shot vig is still very strong because it confirms itself as town and earns town an extra lim.

Plus, it's not like town can't have weak PR's as well as strong ones.

[Something_Smart]

I don't understand. Yes, people would shoot every night as a vig, that's just basic play. I'm not talking about conserving shots, I just think that a 1-shot or 2-shot vig could exist in the setup if the reviewers wanted it to.

[Something_Smart]

^ this guy has not been reading the game and probably just cntrl-f'd "VOTE: Black" in my ISO.

What are you talking about? You made like 10 posts before that vote and none of them contained any sort of opinion on Black.

[Something_Smart]

True. I did not go through your whole ISO. But idk why you think "doesn't have every post memorized" is equivalent to "hasn't been reading the game".

[Something_Smart]

claps
well done s_s you finally used common sense

Can we not make posts like this

[Something_Smart]

Popcorning to Invisibility

Why are we popcorning when there's an unclaimed watcher and a vig out there?

[Something_Smart]

It's ELo? If we wait until they're run up they're just gonna get cc'd by scum

We have an essentially confirmed scum in Italiano, though, so we might as well kill him first and not help scum out on what to do tonight.

Unless you don't think Italiano is scum?

[Something_Smart]

Flower, if Cook had flipped scum, who would you have targeted?

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, that would have been proper. It's a borderline throw to crumb a target like that and then target someone else.

Why did you choose me as your target?

[Something_Smart]

i feel like it's more likely to be a strategic choice than literally giving up

Oh for sure. I mean he can already tell that he's not getting out of it today, so why give up info by fighting it.

And he thinks his team's in a good spot so he doesn't need to create WIFOM/muddy the waters.

[Something_Smart]

I think it's probably better to just end the day so scum don't have as much info off of which to decide the kill.

[Something_Smart]

Also, odd-night cop claims are never real.

The next time you all see an odd-night cop claim, you know what to do.

[Something_Smart]

like how many times have I told you it is a role that is nonexistent and the backup role is simply made by sheep to do the funni

Please, TMI harder.

[Something_Smart]

italiano obviously wants to die and not say anything and just let his team go to next phase

Well, not necessarily. He just doesn't want to keep pretending to be town and potentially give more away, when he assumes it's pointless.

The reason I was holding off was in case Flower wanted to say more, since they are probably dying tonight.

[Something_Smart]

Glad I don't have to doubt Flower's claim after they basically pseudo-scumslipped. I didn't think it was a real scumslip, but I wasn't a fan of it.

I guess we can do a massclaim order of Invis -> Katy -> happy -> fire.

[Something_Smart]

I'll claim last, if at all, because Flower confirmed me as town.

[Something_Smart]

Please unvote. Invis could be the vig.

(You should unvote even if you are the vig, because Invis doesn't know that, and we don't want to give him more information to choose a claim.)

[Something_Smart]

you sure?

Yes, I'm sure.

[Something_Smart]

Yes, obviously they are.

[Something_Smart]

I assume you were the vig, happy, but if not then you omega threw.

[Something_Smart]

If a conftown asks you to unvote in elo, do it first and ask questions afterward.

[Something_Smart]

they coordinated in their PT

[Something_Smart]

I was softing vig all the time and scum didn't see I don't think

There was one that was quite obvious, I assume they just thought Flower was a higher priority kill.

[Something_Smart]

Lol, I almost claimed watcher saying that Italiano visited Klick on N2.

Maybe I should have done it. I was trying to soft watcher throughout D2.