Mini Normal 2303 [Postgame!!!!]

[Black]

I want to hear from fire today

Also do we think a massclaim hurts town or helps town here?

[Flower]

I want to hear from fire today

Also do we think a massclaim hurts town or helps town here?

Gut says hurts since pretty much everyone but the Vig has claimed

-Nameless

[fireisredsir]

im here

uhh initial thoughts

we have a vig, people said yesterday that vig = scum cook? but then cook walks back the bulletproof claim so does that still apply? or is she just doing that bc she realizes she's kinda screwed. but if she's scum bulletproof, why claim it in the first place? also hate the tracker outing but not sure if that's just bad play vs scummy

italiano claiming result on black second is annoying and probably scummy. i kinda think that if town does have all minus one of these roles and also a potential watcher out there, scum must have some power? such as a roleblocker of some kind? so it's weird to me that nobody was blocked. im not sure what that means if anything

i assume it's unlikely that black could be a scum tracker? idk if that's ever a scum role

i am not very confident in trying to mechsolve games at all but on play i still think italiano is scummy

i don't really trust flower tbh

i usually go to SS for mech takes and im not entirely sure if i trust him completely here but i think i do more than flower

[fireisredsir]

What do we think of the relative power level of the three roles claimed? Everything is conditional on something it seems.

Balance-wise Italiano locktown, Cook lockscum, Ausuka the claim is passable

I think there is at least one scum in the two and if you can somehow convince me it's not Ausuka I would be impressed

Ausuka can be scum but I don't see a world where Cook is town and if Cook's trueclaiming that implies a vig that could be shooting with good info instead of wasting time doing nothing when Cook's BP after an Ausuka flip

-A

Ok. So why do you think Italiano is locktown?

Combination of him just doing his own thing outside of the Cook wagon that makes him feel unpaired (esp. the happy vote in 1440 that pretty obviously isn't going anywhere) and the claim being the most believable of the bunch. There's an element of pre-flip association with Cook in that read but even if she flips green I feel decent about him

-A

ok im here

i think italiano is most likely scum of the three, i don't believe his claim

one point that idk if its been brought up but

if cook is town then having a town bulletproof rolecop means that basically anyone who claims after is probably going to be trueclaiming, i would expect? so i don't see why ausuka or italiano would be likely to fakeclaim here, i guess unless they thought it was the only option to prevent their own lim, and are just hoping the claim can buy them time to get a lim on cook. that seems fairly unlikely to me

and of those two claims i think odd night neapolitan sounds more likely to be a scum role than backup watcher

i guess it's possible cook is scum and both ausuka and italiano are town?? but idk i think italiano is scum either way, regardless of the alignment of other two

If town has a 1-shot BP Rolecop then it makes negative sense setup wise for scum to have an Odd Night Neopolitan, if anything you'd expect it to be the other way around. If you think Italiano's trueclaiming he shouldn't be the lim until Cook gets flipped

i am also kinda confused about why black says she is willing to trust flower here

flower feels like they're twisting mech for agenda purposes to me

idk how limming cook here makes the most sense ever mechanically, even if you scumread her

Regardless of alignment I don't lie about mech if I think someone might correctly contradict me. I know Invis/Black/happy from previous games so for that to be happening here I'd need to be scum with happy and also have assurance that the rest of the playerlist wont contradict me so probably at bare minimum Ausuka as well

I thought about that because I feel like Cook is the type of role that scum really want limmed. If she's town and telling the truth then they have to lim her. Flower is pushing awfully hard for the lim

like if you genuinely had this thought prior to just now

then how does it follow that flower is good at mech

if scum really want to elim cook if she's town. and you were thinking about that. then doesn't that mean, without taking a read of cook into account, the lim is bad for town? and so it would be bad mechanically? and so the option that flower is pushing for may not actually be ideal?

The lim is only bad for town if Cook is town, it's negative utility to keep a bp scum rolecop that'll lie about results and can't get vigged alive

---

Preferred lims for me are Cook >> Ausuka >>>>> Italiano and it's pretty dumb that over half the playerlist can agree that Cook's just scum here and then also be too afraid to vote her just cause she claimed Rolecop. More votes on Cook again please
-Nameless

I don't really think Italiano bring scum neapolitan makes zero sense setup wise

You think Scum Odd Day Neopolitan in a Town 1-shot BP Rolecop game makes sense? Feels like there's a lack of scum power in that setup

-Nameless

I don't really think Italiano bring scum neapolitan makes zero sense setup wise

You think Scum Odd Day Neopolitan in a Town 1-shot BP Rolecop game makes sense? Feels like there's a lack of scum power in that setup

-Nameless

It doesn't make sense if that's the only scum pr but why would that be the case

Yeah but in that case to make the setup work it'd be even swingier than what Cook being real by herself would already imply since there'd be some do everything gigarole for scum to make it work

-Nameless

@Flower, Cook is not happening today

We're letting scum get away? Lame

VOTE: Ausuka

Go hammer this Black Italiano is town

-A

Et tu flower

I don't think you flip red here, I just think Italiano

definitely

flips green though and I don't want to risk that going through when he's already E-1

-A

I think of my wagon asri is probably the only one who I actively think is town

I'm sure people are going to suspect them for constantly changing their reads and acting like anyone who doesn't agree with {current scumteam here} is an idiot and I don't really blame you, good luck

The current scumteams are ausuka/fire/flower flower/fire/cook ausuka/happy/flower and invisibility/Hu Tao/ItalianoVd and anyone who doesn't agree with that is a beautiful human being

Can't believe you didn't include me in the last team as well, so rude

Anyways Cook shouldn't be checking Ausuka/Italiano because:

• If Cook is town then Ausuka is town (No reason to setup the Backup Watcher claim otherwise) and Italiano's probably scum fakeclaiming because too much investigative power otherwise so the check doesn't matter because it's still a 1f1 that has to get dealt with
  
• If Cook is scum then either Ausuka is scum and we won't get a real result or Ausuka is town and we wont be able to trust the result anyways. Italiano's locktown until massclaim in that case since otherwise the setup's kinda wack

Also the extreme resistance to a Cook wagon going through while everyone agrees she's scum and the counterwagon being a meh lurker slot makes me think there's scum interference defusing the wagon

-Nameless

this is what i don't trust btw

- started out saying that off the claims, italiano was locktown and cook was lockscum
- follows up by saying that part of that is based on gameplay read and preflips, but that

even if she flips green

they feel decent about him
- continues to argue that italiano shouldn't be limmed based on mechanics, and a couple arguments (which ausuka p quickly points out as faulty) about how his role doesn't make sense as scum if cook is town
- italiano is definitely green

and then finally at the end of the day when actually laying out the logic of the situation, they say that if cook flips town, italiano is probably scum

which goes pretty much counter to everything they were arguing initially and makes the rest feel like taking advantage of mech arguments to push an agenda

i don't think it's excusable as saying they had a strong scumread on cook and were allowing that preflip to influence their takes, bc they also specifically argued that italiano was still probtown even if cook was town, until it came to the end of the day

so im not really willing to trust flower's takes on mech at face value bc even giving maximum benefit of the doubt, they're allowing gameplay reads to influence the mech ideas that they're pushing. feels more to me like they're pushing agenda though, just in the kinda slimy way that they have framed arguments when talking to ausuka and black

[Something_Smart]

Ugh, this is why I hate this game sometimes. I targeted Black last not and my result was “not a vanilla townie”.

Haha, of course you did! What a wacky coincidence.

VOTE: Italiano

[Something_Smart]

If Cook is town, Flower and IVD are scum

If Cook is scum, I think IVD is town and Flower is probably town too

There's no world where Cook's town here, go re-read Ausukas mechposting where she says Cook's scum trueclaiming if there's a vig in the game

-Nameless

Why does scum-Cook tell everyone who the tracker is so the watcher knows who to be on?

[Invisibility]

@mod: v/la until tuesday

[Invisibility]

@mod: v/la until monday I mean sorry whoops

[Flower]

this is what i don't trust btw

- started out saying that off the claims, italiano was locktown and cook was lockscum
- follows up by saying that part of that is based on gameplay read and preflips, but that

even if she flips green

they feel decent about him
- continues to argue that italiano shouldn't be limmed based on mechanics, and a couple arguments (which ausuka p quickly points out as faulty) about how his role doesn't make sense as scum if cook is town
- italiano is definitely green

and then finally at the end of the day when actually laying out the logic of the situation, they say that if cook flips town, italiano is probably scum

which goes pretty much counter to everything they were arguing initially and makes the rest feel like taking advantage of mech arguments to push an agenda

i don't think it's excusable as saying they had a strong scumread on cook and were allowing that preflip to influence their takes, bc they also specifically argued that italiano was still probtown even if cook was town, until it came to the end of the day

so im not really willing to trust flower's takes on mech at face value bc even giving maximum benefit of the doubt, they're allowing gameplay reads to influence the mech ideas that they're pushing. feels more to me like they're pushing agenda though, just in the kinda slimy way that they have framed arguments when talking to ausuka and black

The slime's part of our charm

Anyways I phoneposted 1858 40 minutes before the deadline so it didn't get my usual editing pass for sanity and for some reason I assumed the Watcher had to be real instead of Ausuka just being a Named Townie in that setup spec

In the scum!Flower game what do you think our motivation for coming into the game, suddenly reversing our slots read on Cook (I think? Italiano mentioned this but I haven't actually read what HPE posted) and then spending the rest of the game campaigning to get them limmed is?

Why does scum-Cook tell everyone who the tracker is so the watcher knows who to be on?

I haven't ruled out Black also just being scum but regardless the setup doesn't work if the Watcher exists instead of Ausuka being a Named Townie

-Nameless

VOTE: Cook

[Flower]

Ugh, this is why I hate this game sometimes. I targeted Black last not and my result was “not a vanilla townie”.

Haha, of course you did! What a wacky coincidence.

VOTE: Italiano

Did you miss the setup spec from Ausuka where Vig game = scum!Cook or do you actually believe Cooks new claim?

im here

uhh initial thoughts

we have a vig, people said yesterday that vig = scum cook? but then cook walks back the bulletproof claim so does that still apply? or is she just doing that bc she realizes she's kinda screwed. but if she's scum bulletproof, why claim it in the first place? also hate the tracker outing but not sure if that's just bad play vs scummy

Cook either literally doesn't understand mech enough to know why 1-shot BP Rolecop is scummy (Certainly the persona she's got right now) or she's lying about not understanding (In which case I don't get the play but still scum). Over the night though even if her teammates are complete slankers they'd still have checked in long enough to explain to 0-mech Cook that if there's two kills her claim can't survive and she has to fakeclaim again

italiano claiming result on black second is annoying and probably scummy. i kinda think that if town does have all minus one of these roles and also a potential watcher out there, scum must have some power? such as a roleblocker of some kind? so it's weird to me that nobody was blocked. im not sure what that means if anything

The setup doesn't work if the Watcher is real and there's also the possibility that scum tried to Roleblock someone else hoping to hit the Vigilante which would save Cook at the cost of letting Italiano get a check off

i assume it's unlikely that black could be a scum tracker? idk if that's ever a scum role

If Black is scum she's not Tracker (and her refusal to just post instead of waiting is giving me bad vibes since scum!Black can be stalling to figure out who's VT)

i am not very confident in trying to mechsolve games at all but on play i still think italiano is scummy

i don't really trust flower tbh

i usually go to SS for mech takes and im not entirely sure if i trust him completely here but i think i do more than flower

If you don't know the mech go sheep Ausukas mechposting

-Nameless

[Something_Smart]

Did you miss the setup spec from Ausuka where Vig game = scum!Cook or do you actually believe Cooks new claim?

I believe Cook's new claim. It makes much more sense in the setup than the old one (and than Italiano's claim) and the reasoning, while poor, is believable.

[Cook]

reasoning for faking 1sbp?

[Flower]

Did you miss the setup spec from Ausuka where Vig game = scum!Cook or do you actually believe Cooks new claim?

I believe Cook's new claim. It makes much more sense in the setup than the old one (and than Italiano's claim) and the reasoning, while poor, is believable.

How would these posts be justified by an Ascetic Rolecop Cook?

I even have a 14p game that has a 3v11 setup, this should be 3v10
on prs here I do agree the cook pr seems a bit too op, should be balanced by making other prs weaker
how many prs do we have here is the real question
I'm guessing three
how do I know this
I make setups and am p good at them

part of the reason i called BS on italiano's claim

like look there in the future

oh you haven't read that far back probably, nameless, but

"defensive" is a bit of a weird read of that post

agree and

i think that maybe my wagon knows something about me

i felt like mafia might be informed of my existence because of how strong i am

Like a big part of why I'm scumreading Cook outside of mech is that these explanations make negative sense for me and I don't see how Cook comes to the conclusions there.

-Nameless

[Cook]

i was committing to it. those were in fact plain lies. if mafia knew what i really was they would have killed me on the spot. but this was before mafia did nk's. i had no way of knowing if they were actually informed or not

[Cook]

again i really think you're searching for reasons to get me killed

[Something_Smart]

reasoning for faking 1sbp?

Yes.

I could have maybe understood simply claiming rolecop without any modifiers. But the 1sbp is inherently suspicious because it gives an excuse for why you aren't dying, and it screws up setup speculation.

[Something_Smart]

How would these posts be justified by an Ascetic Rolecop Cook?

I mean Cook clearly wanted to appear to scum as a 1-shot BP rolecop. I don't see why those posts don't make sense as furthering that goal.

[Cook]

reasoning for faking 1sbp?

Yes.

I could have maybe understood simply claiming rolecop without any modifiers. But the 1sbp is inherently suspicious because it gives an excuse for why you aren't dying, and it screws up setup speculation.

specifically here's what went through my head:
"oh! i'm ascetic. that means that i can't be protected. thus i will get nightkilled if i have to claim. so i almost need to play scummy town so that i avoid getting killed by mafia at least for one day. i will claim 1-shot bulletproof, because then that won't waste a protective trying to prot me if i claim, since they won't do anything vis a vis my asceticism. this will also keep the mafia off of me, since i will be a useless kill. perfect. i will fake this and then clear things up later."

[Flower]

Hmm. Ok. Let me think on this. I'm not going to reveal right now so just give it some time

Black if you tracked S_S staying home can you come out with this information now before I get into a tunnel here?

-Nameless

[Something_Smart]

You really think Cook and I are

this

incompetent as scum? Or what exactly do you think our grand plan is?

[Something_Smart]

Or are you just unable to comprehend how anyone could see things differently from you?

[Something_Smart]

Not trying to be insulting, but I really want to know what here makes you want to tunnel me. Because it seems like you're just being tribalistic and going after people who disagree with you.

[sheepsaysmeep]

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[sheepsaysmeep]

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[sheepsaysmeep]

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