Micro 1070 | a micro normal | Endgame

[Klick]

VOTE: mykonian

Hello friend! I'm excited to meet again soon, if only for a short time.

I like Wavelength so far. I like his read on Aureal and I like he was the first one to mention it, I kind of thought that the post from Aureal seemed pretty disingenuous.

I think Wavelength's read on Aureal comes from town almost every time, but I also think Aureal is town.

[Klick]

I'm going to attempt to play D1 slowly. I suspect I'll fail at that.

[Klick]

Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!

FACTS

Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.

Does having recently been Mafia have any bearing on the likelihood of someone being Mafia here?

Answer: no, it does not.

VOTE: Alisae, defend the honor of Roger Rabbit!

VOTE: Aureal

This does not read like someone who is actually trying to understand what Alisae is doing, and then asking if it is town or scum. It reads like someone who wanted to pick someone to call scum.

In contrast to this interpretation, I didn't read Aureal's post as legitimate solving OR as a serious attempt to take a position on Alisae. I read Aureal's post as mostly a continuation of RVS with a slight push to create *content* out of it. That interpretation then got backed up by post 51:

This does not read like someone who is actually trying to understand what Alisae is doing, and then asking if it is town or scum. It reads like someone who wanted to pick someone to call scum.

Like jumping around yelling that someone is scum for no real reason isn't half of what the early game is.

And I feel like scum struggles to hold that perspective.

[Klick]

VOTE: mykonian

Hello friend! I'm excited to meet again soon, if only for a short time.

It is always really nice to see you, for however long you can manage.

We had these grand plans of playing more online and I don't think that worked (maybe with some others?) , maybe we should still try that by playing warm up boardgames before the meet?


As for the game, I don't think andantes excitement is alignment indicative. It seems pretty common. Outside that, I would lean town here for now on the content of her posts, not the tone.

Lisa asked whether I played with Dat and I played one mini last year where he was scum (Andante was in it as well). Of the others, if I played with you it's been ages ago, I don't remember how you play.

Wavelength has got a point about Aureal, that's the A I should have gone for.

vote: Aureal

I'd love to play some games leading up to the meet! Any evening after 9 GMT works for Bella and I, though one of us might have to duck out to get the little one back to sleep. Outside of that, I'll keep an eye on Discord in the coming evenings and see if anything fun is happening.

Like Ari, I'm also interested in hearing more about what Andante has posted that you think is towny.

[Klick]

What content of Andante's are you townleaning her for and why?

Not sure I'm helping anyone if I answer this. For one, it's 3 pages in and Andante is probably the person I feel most confident I can read anyway, so I might as well wait till I'm not leaning one way or another from a handful of posts. There's no pressing need to answer, Andante isn't even being voted so I imagine you all agree she's pretty town. I also don't have to tell the scum who's the obvious town.

That's a lot of words to say that I don't like you and Klick asking about a townread 3 pages in. Go find some baddies. May I suggest Aureal?

I disagree with your assertion that pushing for scum is the correct way to play the game over finding town

I don't think anything Andante has done has been particularly towny thus far

[Klick]

Have you ever seen town go through the motions before?

[Klick]

VOTE: Andante

[Klick]

I believe u Datisi

[Klick]

Have you ever seen town go through the motions before?

Probably.

Got anything better?

Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion

She's an easy target

[Klick]

My current theory is that there are indeed two A's on the scumteam and you voted the two wrong ones myko

[Klick]

I spent way too long trying to come up with a zingy way of expressing my Andante/Alisae tinfoil

[Klick]

Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion

She's an easy target

And that doesn't bother you, that they more or less open with: "this is how I always play, please don't vote me for it". Instead of just.. playing?

It's an easy target because it's the right target. Going for Andante we are going to do at some point, I don't think they get through an early game often. She's easy. You are the pot calling the kettle black here.

Not really I'd expect that kind of response from town more often than scum
This is a difference in philosophy where you seem to look for how you think town *should* play when they are doing what they should be doing
Whereas I look for how I think town *will* play without any particular expectation of quality
I remember this from playing with you previously

The only game I remember playing with Andante was a game that just ended and she was the most widely townread scum player
I didn't realise she normally doesn't get through early game?

[Klick]

she was the most widely townread scum player

The most widely townread player overall, even

[Klick]

I suppose at this point I have a vague townread on Alisae. While they're being a bit uncharitable, I do like that there was a thought process behind the talk about past Mafia games; and more importantly, that they didn't feel the need to force a conclusion out of it.

I understand how you got to this conclusion and think it's a natural one to come to. As someone who knows Alisae's playstyle, I can tell you that this describes how they'd play as either alignment.

[Klick]

This isn't me saying Klick is a wolf, I think Klick is a read best read when they've developed a body of work and comparing that body of work to the context that is the game.
It's pretty easy for them to be townie pretty early on and I imagine if they're wolf they're able to fake that.

Basically I think this is probably a good general guide for reading Alisae as well!

[Klick]

one more time Dats <3

i am town, and i hope you're town with me so that we can finally win together <3

anyway uh
klick town
herta and myko alos scummy

i am very good at game

Do you feel like anything Wavelength has done is AI or

[Klick]

Aureal's responses solidified my read!

[Klick]

Why's that?

[Klick]

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

[Klick]

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon

I actually hard townread Aureal and have talked about it in the thread
I just wanted to see what you'd say if I hard countered my thread narrative to see if you really hadn't read the thread. I think the answer is probably yes?

[Klick]

It's been a decent chunk of the conversation on the last page, I don't feel bad for checking to see if you've read the game

[Klick]

It's been a decent chunk of the conversation on the last page, I don't feel bad for checking to see if you've read the game

Andante has claimed that not reading everything is not ai for her. Do you disagree with that assessment?

I can't see where Andante claimed this prior to the post you quoted

I don't think not reading is AI in itself. I wanted to make sure that's what was actually happening though.

[Klick]

VOTE: Alisae

[Klick]

Datisi help
I found scum but e's going to beat me in an argument

[Klick]

I'll figure it out faster if you can convince me you believe Aureal has any chance of being scum here, much less enough of one to vote right now

[Klick]

To be very clear:

Aureal is at E-1

[Klick]

I think this gamestate is pretty well readable already

[Klick]

Meh this doesn't go anywhere immediately and I should really sleep

I'm obviously not as confident about you as I'm projecting but I'm really not feeling anywhere near as comfortable about you as I'd like to feel atm and I have several other townreads

[Klick]

Much turmoil over if to hold off or to just shoot
I'm just going to shoot.

Curious as to who is informed of having my exact rolecard. I've done

A LOT

of thinking about this as well as what I think the setup could look like and I feel like it could be productive to massclaim who has this information. I am very curious to see who is willing to come out with it and I think I can find wolves based on the number of people who claim to have this information

No clue

[Klick]

Meh this doesn't go anywhere immediately and I should really sleep

I'm obviously not as confident about you as I'm projecting but I'm really not feeling anywhere near as comfortable about you as I'd like to feel atm and I have several other townreads

where are you at

Don't worry I didn't miss this I'm just going to respond to it when I actually have time and am not skimming

[Klick]

Have I not been previously clear about my Aureal townread? Genuine question, because both yourself and Andante seem to not be considering it in the posts you're making. I don't want Aureal at E-1 because I have a fairly solid townread on Aureal, and I feel like that should be obvious.

There's nothing in particular that I currently want out of this gamestate.

I guess if I dive a bit deeper into that, I want to not disturb it, because I feel that often when I try to influence the discourse with specific intentions, I fail to get anything that significantly influences my read on the game. I find much more success getting an accurate read from watching a game develop naturally without large influence from me. So I want to encourage a gamestate that feels naturally developed to me so that I can solve it properly.

Outside of that, there are a few things that I don't want. I don't want Aureal eliminated. I don't want Wavelength eliminated. I don't want you eliminated, I think.

PEdit: this was @myko

[Klick]

Datisi help
I found scum but e's going to beat me in an argument

i can potentially be sold on ali!scum but why are you pleading to me

How do you currently read Alisae?

[Klick]

I basically agree with that assessment
They feel somewhat detached from what they're arguing in the thread in a way that doesn't sit right with me

There are a couple of reasons I asked you that the way I did
Part of it was because engaging you on a conversation about Alisae might help me sort you
I also feel like us talking about them could help me put my thoughts about them into words and process them better because prior to your 216 I felt vaguely scummy in their direction with very little understanding of the reason why I felt that
You specifically are someone I feel are helpful with that because I trust you to have a fairly nuanced thought-through perspective on the things you think about the game or to otherwise be able to have those thoughts

[Klick]

Spicy
UNVOTE:

[Klick]

My gut instinct is to agree with you on Datisi's response being scummy in light of your role
But I'm going to let it simmer

[Klick]

I think Gimli is hard town and also I agree with a lot of his takes

I feel somewhat removed from the gamestate atm but I don't think that's a bad thing I think the reads I do have are correct

[Klick]

VOTE: Aristeia

[Klick]

what are your current reads and why is gimli town

I totally buy into Gimli's read and perception of the game being a town one
I'm not going to say Gimli can't be faking his current take on the game, but if he is he's putting a lot of effort into making it look genuine AND he's sending the gamestate in a direction that I already think is largely accurate and so I'm very happy to give him a pass and a sheep vote for the moment

TOWN
Wavelength
Aureal
Gimli

LEANING TOWN
mykonian

2/4 SCUM
Aristeia
Alisae
Datisi
Andante

[Klick]

what are your current reads and why is gimli town

I totally buy into Gimli's read and perception of the game being a town one
I'm not going to say Gimli can't be faking his current take on the game, but if he is he's putting a lot of effort into making it look genuine AND he's sending the gamestate in a direction that I already think is largely accurate and so I'm very happy to give him a pass and a sheep vote for the moment

TOWN
Wavelength
Aureal
Gimli

LEANING TOWN
mykonian

2/4 SCUM
Aristeia
Alisae
Datisi
Andante

hardomgusing his primary pusher is literally the easiest move for a scum under pressure to do.

Okay good thing that's not all he's doing

[Klick]

Solving

[Klick]

It's a body of work

[Klick]

Gimli fwiw out of Ari/Andante I have a slightly stronger opinion on Andante being a potential wolf
I'm fine with being on Aristeia regardless but if you're feeling similarly about both of them then Andante's my personal preference

[Klick]

your read feels fake

I've put a level of depth into it that's appropriate for the 15ish minutes I've had to skim since getting off work
I don't think I'm wrong though

[Klick]

I know I'm thinking critically and I can show that in my own time
I don't trust your motives for wanting me to expand so I'm deliberately being a bit cagey about it
I know that's frustrating to deal with but I think I'll get something out of it!

[Klick]

i dont think you are thinking critically because your responses when i ask you to elaborate are:

"solving"
"body of work"

which says literally nothing

That's fine

[Klick]

Gimli fwiw out of Ari/Andante I have a slightly stronger opinion on Andante being a potential wolf
I'm fine with being on Aristeia regardless but if you're feeling similarly about both of them then Andante's my personal preference

I'm a scumsiding potato who's horrible at mafia, of course I'll sheep you on andante. I have no preference between andante and aristeia, my ari read is just louder because I'm interacting with her and we're 1v1ing. I think the way you caught andante on page 5-6 and their subsequent AtE are >>rand scum and I'm inclined to go there.

VOTE: andante

Sounds good
VOTE: Andante
Don't discredit yourself though!

[Klick]

its not critical thought

it in fact demonstrates nothing to me about your thought process

That's why it's critical thought instead of performative scumposting

[Klick]

Wavelength Gimli is like super town
Why do you think otherwise in like 2 sentences

[Klick]

TOWN
Wavelength
Aureal
Gimli

LEANING TOWN
mykonian

2/4 SCUM
Aristeia
Alisae
Datisi
Andante

As much as I enjoy being in a special category, you do have meta on me.

Is the meta helping or not?

In terms of, is it being used to inform my read? Of course. I know you a lot better than anyone else at the table.
But it's also probably the reason you're at 'leaning town' instead of just 'town'. I don't think your play looks massively different between town and scum. You play towards similar ideals regardless. The main difference here being that the things you're pushing atm feel like things you'd genuinely believe you're on the right track about.

[Klick]

You also don't read as... I guess 'concerned' is the best way I can think to put it? I don't think you're thinking much at all about the thread's perception of you. I think you would be if you were scum.

[Klick]

Wavelength Gimli is like super town
Why do you think otherwise in like 2 sentences

Herta.

Performative catch up.

Overly focused on Winning Arguments

I don't think anything Herta did/didn't do is actually AI people just don't like it when slots don't have activity

Town and scum do performative catch ups I won't even contest that Gimli's catch up was performative but it wasn't scummy

Why do scum focus on Winning Arguments

[Klick]

Gimli is like night and day from when we were scum together
Gimli's got a real perspective in this game and is passionate about it and I think it's because he believes what he's saying
Scum Gimli wanted to keep options open
This Gimli is eliminating options, limiting himself, because he's solving this game

[Klick]

You don't think repping into a slot that had already hit e-1 would influence what you are perceiving as "keeping options open"

Because I vaguely agree with Ari's point that landing on a scum pool of exactly the people already voting for him is interesting. Although, my thought was more that he could be trying to not ruffle other players feathers into voting him.

I also don't think that he has very many town reads (other then you or me) that he really married him self to so strongly that he could not walk them back fairly trivially as read progression.

I believe the actual pressure on Herta was far weaker than everyone involved wanted it to be
No one had legitimate reasons to strongly scumread Herta, not at a level where they were anywhere near guaranteed to be the lim today
I believe that makes this logic fall apart. There's no reason for Gimli to assume that the votes on Herta were going to stay on Gimli

Gimli's reads have a depth and nuance to them. I believe Gimli has put actual thought into his reads at a level that requires believing them. Sure he 'could walk them back fairly trivially as read progression' but that's just looking at the end result of what he posted without getting into the nitty gritty details.

[Klick]

"vote andante... andante answer"
yeah no thanks, I told yall, I'm a little preocupied with stuff right now, I'm glad we have to lim me right now, right this very second. like, yall want to lim a slot that's done nothing? when I told yall I will definitely give stuff this weekend? like, good logic

What do you think of the people who were considering Herta an inevitable elimination for, uh, not being around?

[Klick]

I don't believe that Andante has genuine conviction in the things she pushes. I think the energy she has for the things she pushes is a front to seem like she cares a lot about what she's arguing about.

The thing that Andante does as town is she has thoughts off the cuff and presents them basically unfiltered. In older scum games I believe she has a lot of trouble imitating this play. In her most recent scum game, she imitated this by presenting lots of potential thoughts, but all at a surface level, without the *belief* behind them. She basically pushed whatever was convenient for her at the time, there wasn't a consistent thought process.

I think her play here matches pretty well with that. She's not posting as MUCH as she did in the last game, but the basic idea of 'I'm going to present this random idea I have and not hold onto it as a belief!' is still there.

I don't believe that Andante believes the things she's posting in the thread.

[Klick]

AnDaNtE oNlY dOeS nOtHiNg As ScUm

I'm so sick of hearing yall's meta. Stop pretending you have a reason you SR me. You SR me for doing nothing? nice one. I TOLD YALL. I'll be active this weekend. Deadline 3 days? ok so what? by the start of d2 you'll see stuff

@ you people living by my meta, have fun
viewtopic.php?t=88545

anyways, whatever, if yall vote me out before I even have a chance to figure this out, so be it. if I'm scum don't I literally have to have a partner? So how does it make sense to lim me before I make it very clear who they are? you all know I talk a lot regardless of alignment.

I'm just so over reading the exact same thing everytime I look at this game

I've not said you've done nothing
This overreaction is what I'd expect from scum

[Klick]

@ you people living by my meta, have fun
viewtopic.php?t=88545

I should clarify, that's a town game I got limmed for doing nothing, feels real similar to this

In that game it feels like you've got a pretty large amount of nuance and depth from the get-go!
Like you're not even doing nothing in that game

[Klick]

Ari does not feel like she’s engaging w/ the thread as a wolf

I didn't feel like her interaction with me was very good? She seemed annoyed that she couldn't debunk my suspicion more than a genuine suspicion of me not answering her properly

[Klick]

There's a world where it's literally just Andante/Datisi and we've got very little in the way of solvable material
I'm hesitant to call it that though when you and Ari still feel like potential scum

[Klick]

VOTE: Andante

I changed my mind she's mafia

Legend

[Klick]

This is definitely flipping scum and the partner is probably Datisi

[Klick]

"lol kill me im not going to be around"

-> e-1 vote

-> "actually im a PR"

in a 9p

is almost always scum

Okay you're town sorry for trolling you a bit earlier today

My read is real tho!

[Klick]

I'm not locktowning aristeia over this if andante flips mafia lol no way

But we flip dats first

That's assuming andante flips mafia

She's not town for the hammer she's town for the thoughts behind the hammer

[Klick]

My game-winning solve is {Enchant, myko, Alisae}

[Klick]

My game-winning solve is {Enchant, myko, Alisae}

I think if you look at how Andante responded to my claim it's pretty unlikely that's a reaction that comes from a partner.
If they're my partner I think they just don't engage me on my claim or massclaim.
Idunno I feel like they responded to that like they didn't know what was going on

But she had to have known what was going on she had your role?

[Klick]

I'm not seeing what you're trying to demonstrate in terms of why that shows Andante is uninformed or otherwise makes you an unlikely partner

[Klick]

I know that's what you're saying but I don't see the why

[Klick]

To clarify my position I don't think you're particularly likely scum but I don't have you cleared like I do a good chunk of the players left
Part of that is because I expect quite a lot from you as scum

[Klick]

I also want an Enchant claim

[Klick]

VOTE: Enchant

[Klick]

I could have been a lazy psychologist,

which I would only be allowed to use if there was more than one antitown player left.

I asked if I could, I could not use that, so for what it's worth in a 9p game, we are looking for one scum.

I can check on my own in a bit but can someone confirm if this is a type of role that's allowed in Normals in any way?

[Klick]

Enchant is also a mason

Looool
UNVOTE:

[Klick]

I'd like Aureal to claim I think

PEdit lol

[Klick]

I'm VT

[Klick]

i'm also p tired and didnt sleep very well I just want to think everything through and klick literally hasn't even posted today so I don't see why rush it?

let him play the game a bit.

I also don't want to rush. I think the myko lim was entirely avoidable.

I've not read everything posted today yet. I suspect I won't have a ton to add to the conversation.

I do think the current solve is in {Alisae, Gimli} but I want to dive deeper into Aureal to make sure I've not made a mistake there. I don't believe it's Aristeia and I don’t think that's going to change.

[Klick]

I'd like more posting from Aureal and Klick to make sure they are town - you and gimli shouting at each other is not going to help me get there.

I understand why Gimli's play is scum motivated in the areas that you are focused on but there are also areas that are weird to me - like why would he convince Klick to go from voting for me to voting for Andante?

You have that backwards, I made my preference for Andante clear. I do like that he went for it when I did that though.

[Klick]

Wait I'm a dummy Ari is clear lol

[Klick]

I'm ngl I am kind of worried it might be Klick

Talk about it? I don't feel like I'm a very sensible suspect at the moment with how D1 went.

[Klick]

can you two stop arguing with each other and look at Klick's transition for me pls.

like from here:

viewtopic.php?t=90508&start=500

he third-votes me to put me/gimli at 3 v 3

when I turn on him and vote for him - that's when he mentions to Gimli that he actually prefers Andante but he could still stay on Aristeia at 544 - which doesn't make a lot of sense as a reaction to me voting for Klick 30 seconds later ?

Keep in mind that 544 was posted literally 48 seconds after 542. I did not read your post before writing mine. It literally can't be a causal response to 542.

[Klick]

like I don't get why Klick has a POE of 4 players and decides to vote for me and put me at 3 votes - did he even have a reason to scumread me at that point?

A PoE of 4 means 50% odds of hitting scum
I'm comfortable with sheeping in those odds and I didn't feel towny on you prior to that point.

See this thread. I've been intending to apply this logic in-game.

[Klick]

like he says Gimli is town af - but why does that mean Ari is scum for pushing Gimli?

It doesn't necessarily and I didn't use that as reasoning

I do not like making conclusive pushes on people who might be scum. I find it's fairly rare that I have evidence that suggests someone is scum at the level where I'm comfortable throwing my weight around about it. I find that's much more likely to happen with townreads. And so I tend to get a PoE pool and be somewhat satisfied with any vote within it.

[Klick]

YUCXHFSJTFK.GKJF

NO IM NOT TRYING TO READ ANDANTE IM TRYING TO GET THEM TO POST SOMETHING THAT MAKES THEM READABLE HOW IS THAT SAVING

I know if you're town you're confbiased
but I think Gimli's interpretation makes plenty of sense as a potential read of the situation?

[Klick]

he was the first person to leave Andante's first three vote wagon though.

The wagon didn't feel like it was actually going anywhere and I wanted more development out of the day. I still thought Andante was scummy but wanted to try something else.

[Klick]

YUCXHFSJTFK.GKJF

NO IM NOT TRYING TO READ ANDANTE IM TRYING TO GET THEM TO POST SOMETHING THAT MAKES THEM READABLE HOW IS THAT SAVING

I know if you're town you're confbiased
but I think Gimli's interpretation makes plenty of sense as a potential read of the situation?

I think it’s reasonable to want to try to get more out of Andante. It can come from any alignment. They’re not providing much to be worked with at the time I wrote that post and it seemed like they were kind of just posting like a chicken with their heads cut off

Sure
But I don't think Gimli's read is unreasonable to the point where your rage reaction feels like a sensible response

[Klick]

I think the best way to describe Aureal’s play is it feels agendaless?
I don’t get the impression they’re informed and playing with a teammate.

I agree with this

[Klick]

what trap play

here are the appropriate posts:

Spoiler: klick trapping andante

Aureal seems town

Why's that?

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon

I actually hard townread Aureal and have talked about it in the thread
I just wanted to see what you'd say if I hard countered my thread narrative to see if you really hadn't read the thread. I think the answer is probably yes?

this is after klick is already hard SRing andante and wagoning her. VERY early on d1. this is very early d1.

this is the issue I have because I reread the first 6 pages of the game and your version of events is just not accurate at all and I need you to actually reread it and tell me what you see again.

Datisi starts the Andante wagon at 84 - 1027am
Klick hops on as 2nd vote 96 - 1038 am - "I believe you Datisi"
I sheep Datisi, 3rd vote at 110 - 1104am

the interactions where you say Klick hardburies Andante happen ~5 hours later at 4pm - they occur after Klick votes for Andante and after she becomes a viable wagon. it's not him trapping her that leads him to vote her - he is already voting for her atp.

I don't see where the Klick/Andante interactions on page 6 can't be scum/scum theatre that they decided to do when they could both be online at the same time? If anything it feels a bit unbelievable to be unscripted on a re-read because it doesn't even feel natural?

even in 166 he is not really saying this trap worked or its ai for andante,

by 169 he has reacted to Alisae putting Aureal at E-1 by voting for Alisae - and this is an interesting reaction for several reasons.

What it signals overtly is that he's scumreading Alisae for putting Aureal[his top townread atp] at e-1.

but does this scumread actually make sense in the context of him pushing Andante as the CW? I would say not really? If anything he's making it more likely Aureal is the wagon that goes through since he's lowering the competing wagon from 3 -> 2 by hopping off and voting Alisae at this point.

Also how does it make sense for Alisae!scum to vote Aureal who is Klick's top townread if Andante is town? Like would it not be simpler for Alisae to vote for Andante if Andante is town?

Like why can't Alisae be just sorting or humoring Mykonian?

Originally I thought this was a townie reaction because it felt like Klick was trying to save Aureal!town but knowing that Andante is mafia it feels like a convenient way to deflate the andante wagon and jump off of it.

What you have to understand is that at that point in the game I wasn't legitimately in the mindset of 'the day might end soon' at all
None of the wagons felt like they had the weight of an actual elimination on them even though the numbers themselves were high

[Klick]

like the thing with a POE of 4 is - how are you sure your POE of 4 is right? because the town only gets to vote out 4 people so if it's wrong by even one person you lose. Also if you hit one of the townies in the POE of 4, what keeps the town on the POE instead of deciding to throw it out and maybe vote you out instead?

Because the people outside the PoE were towny af Ari

[Klick]

Shallow reads lmfao

I hard agree with what Gimli is saying atm
In contrast I think his worldview has a lot of depth to it and he believes what he's saying

[Klick]

YUCXHFSJTFK.GKJF

NO IM NOT TRYING TO READ ANDANTE IM TRYING TO GET THEM TO POST SOMETHING THAT MAKES THEM READABLE HOW IS THAT SAVING

I know if you're town you're confbiased
but I think Gimli's interpretation makes plenty of sense as a potential read of the situation?

I think it’s reasonable to want to try to get more out of Andante. It can come from any alignment. They’re not providing much to be worked with at the time I wrote that post and it seemed like they were kind of just posting like a chicken with their heads cut off

Sure
But I don't think Gimli's read is unreasonable to the point where your rage reaction feels like a sensible response

I disagree. I don’t see how any sane person doesn’t look at andante there and ask “what the fuck are they doing can they provide something that’s actually helpful”

I thought she was scummy!

[Klick]

Anyway lunch break over
I think it's Alisae but gonna read over Aureal later

[Klick]

Just woke up, not in a place to make like a proper case, if that's something Gimli or whoever else really wants I'm fine to do that later
But I've reread Aureal and there's no way she's scum
She's so comfortable in her rebuttals against myko in a self-referential way that just feels genuine and like it would be an incredibly difficult route to take in that situation as scum
I'm like >99% confident that this is just town

[Klick]

done w/ this thread

if ari wants to flip me she can flip me

klick please kill alisae in f3 kthxbye

Okay good there shouldn't be too much after this for me to catch... up... on...

okay alisae then I'm done reading the game

it's you, and if it's not you I'm fine losing the game with you for playing f5 in a completely tunneled manner

gl hf losing f3 and go aureal

BOTH MASONS WANTED MYKO MAN
ÃDAD09A3JUDFAH8F8A3G8FA

what is this

I can't be mad you're just a wolf but what is this jfc

Mafia is a team game.
It doesn't just go 1 way. I don't just help you when it's convenient for you. That's a selfish way of playing and if you're going to pretend it's a team game when only you will only do what you think is right and only care to put your own reads before others, then like idunno.

Like ya you're a mason you're afraid you'll die tonight you wanna take your time that's fine, just don't promise to care about what I want when you care about what you want and you only see yourself as your only ally. I'm your teammate. One preferably uses their teammates to cover for their weaknesses. If you're confused, talk to me. If you need my help, ask me. If you don't know where to go, lean on me.

Mafia is a team game and knowing how to use your teammates strengths to cover for your weaknesses is an important aspect of the game.

I'm literally aristeia's team mate that you're shutting down. I helped kill scum on d1. you only got there when andante started flailing horrendously ITG. you spent the entire d1 enabling andante.

I wanna know what you think happens f3 after I flip. you're making sure you lose, alisae, do you understand that?

'im so good at mafia blablabla'

reality: has no perspective

I played with klick as a wolf team mate and I don't think klick is going to do with andante what klick did to andante as a scum partner. I'm hardclearing klick because of it. just check klick's ISO, they absolutely murdered andante, ari. it's not something you really do quite often to a partner early d1 of a 9er. klick caught andante in a trap play and exposed her as probable scum. that's how I got to strong SR andante when I was catching up with the game. while it's possible klick did that as a wolf, I think the only viable options as solves are alisae, me and aureal. if it's klick, I'm fine losing and we're going to lose.

I want to believe Klick is townie too which is why I think it's just you >_<

'want to believe' lol. aureal is also playing, btw, you don't even know what makes sense as a POE cause you're fake solving cause you're scum

There's an awful lot of aggressive appeal to emotion from Gimli here and I don't really dig it.

To be clear even if Gimli IS scum I don't think the intent here is to appeal to emotion
I think the scum motivation here would be him trying to set up a realistic-looking narrative for his thoughts in the thread
I think it's more likely that Gimli is just town though

[Klick]

Alisae does similarly in er arguments with Gimli but I think er responses are closer to 'Appeal to Emotion' than Gimli's responses
I think Alisae wants people to feel bad for not seeing Gimli as obvscum in places

[Klick]

I don’t wanna scream about Gimli being a wolf anymore.
I don’t wanna defend myself from Gimli’s shitpushes.
Both of these just translate into more screaming and yelling and just doesn’t sound productive.

I’m only doing it because I have to and I feel like it’s important to stay focused.

I wanna go to bed.

At least that's what I feel when I read stuff like this and I think that's Alisae's intent in writing it assuming e's scum

[Klick]

Alisae does similarly in er arguments with Gimli but I think er responses are closer to 'Appeal to Emotion' than Gimli's responses
I think Alisae wants people to feel bad for not seeing Gimli as obvscum in places

I have a hard time buying that you're presenting this take in good faith

I AtE as both alignments and it's draining to have to feel like I have to refute every argument that Gimli feels like he has to come up with

Okay so it sounds like I'm correct and you want people to feel bad that they don't see Gimli as obvscum?
It's fine if your answer is 'yes but I'm doing it as town' I can accept that as a possible answer!

[Klick]

I just don't like Aureal having the take that Gimli's AtEing here when I'm not seeing that at all AND I'm seeing you do it in the same conversation

I want to both sort the truth of this situation and show it to two other townies
That is my current motivation

[Klick]

Aristeia has managed to make me a little less confident in Klick, from what I'm reading. This is not a forward direction that helps my confidence in doing things. I'm now remembering how I was trying to ask him about that 'trap' for Andante, and wishing I'd managed to get more clarity there. I didn't feel like it was as straightforward "Andante is scum for not reading stuff" as you thought. The impression I got was that Andante regularly plays that way, and I was hoping people with experience with that would give insight. But it didn't really go anywhere at the time, then the second wagon on her just materialized with no real discussion of that.

Here's the progression of what happened with that Andante interaction from my perspective:

- Andante posted this response to me:

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

- This projects the idea that Andante isn't reading the game, at least not in detail. If Andante was reading the game, she would already know that I think Aureal is town.
- I think it's possible that Andante actually IS reading the game, and is trying to show otherwise in the thread for some scum-motivated agenda. In hindsight it's not something that is particularly likely to be the case, but at the time I was skeptical.
- I post this:

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

With the intent of getting some insight on whether I'm right about Andante feigning ignorance of the game.
- Ten minutes later, Andante responds with this:

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon

Which reads to me like she just takes my read at face value. I think she was legitimately not reading the game in enough detail to notice my Aureal townread.
It's important to note that if I thought Andante WAS in fact reading and feigning ignorance, that's what would make them almost definitely scum. The thing I was testing for proved inconclusive for Andante's alignment.
- I make it clear that I was just testing for Andante reading the game.

I hope this does something to clarify my position there. Gimli isn't quite correct in his assertion that me doing that completely caught Andante in itself. Andante's REACTION to me doing that was much worse than just not reading the game in detail.

[Klick]

Okay so it sounds like I'm correct and you want people to feel bad that they don't see Gimli as obvscum?
It's fine if your answer is 'yes but I'm doing it as town' I can accept that as a possible answer!

no I don't want anyone to feel bad man. Game is hard and people have their rights to take their time and think but like I feel like I just have this game solved and I just want it to be over. I feel like I just get this way all of the time when I'm hung up about something :/

I think the most direct route to victory is sufficiently showing that Aureal and myself are town and then voting you/Gimli in either order, which is my current goal
I think you're more likely to be scum than him but I DO have him open in the event that I'm wrong about you

[Klick]

If you're truly confident that Gimli is last scum then help me show her that she's wrong about me!

[Klick]

it genuinely makes me think I have the charisma of like a brick when I feel like I don't :/

For me at least, I'm very resistant to being persuaded my like most arguments that I don't genuinely see myself
ESPECIALLY from people that I suspect could convince me of something that isn’t true

It's not a 'not enough charisma' problem for me, it's a 'so much charisma that I can't open myself up to it' problem

[Klick]

Me just casually outing that I ignore most people's pushes in games >_>
It's okay no one will read this game

[Klick]

Klick, can you give me any more context for why you were scumreading Andante before the check on whether she was reading things?

So right before this game started, I finished a game where Andante was scum and was the most townread player in the game. Just as I was starting to work out that Andante might be scum, I got NKed in that game. I put a lot of work into trying to figure out the differences between town-Andante and scum-Andante. And so I entered this game with that analysis fresh on my mind.
As for that analysis itself, I gave it for the most part in this post:

The thing that Andante does as town is she has thoughts off the cuff and presents them basically unfiltered. In older scum games I believe she has a lot of trouble imitating this play. In her most recent scum game, she imitated this by presenting lots of potential thoughts, but all at a surface level, without the *belief* behind them. She basically pushed whatever was convenient for her at the time, there wasn't a consistent thought process.

And there are a few more nuances that you can tease out of that that are relevant to this game, but the main takeaway should be that: Andante BLEEDS natural solving when she's town. There's a really clear difference in mindset between Andante as town who says exactly what she thinks, and Andante as scum who tries really hard to give what she THINKS looks like genuine takes.

I had a hunch from Andante's early posting that she didn't feel natural. Wavelength picked up on it as well:

VOTE: Andante

They have had the most stilted entrance so far. ITS THE GUILT

The first page has a lot of Andante posts and together they feel... kind of nervous? That was my take on reading them. The RVS posts she gave felt forced, like each one was meant to project that she was excited for the game, like she needed to pretend she was excited for the game because she would be much more comfortable as town than as scum.

In order to go in more depth I'd need to like give really in-depth analyses of specific Andante posts in the first three pages and show the things that I just noticed subconsciously from them that felt *nervous*. The point being that I had a tone read on her, felt like she was trying to sell me *confident* and *motivated* and *spontaneous*, when what I was seeing was *nervous*. And this was all on a subconscious level.

[Klick]

I think the main difference is that as town she shows *confident* and *motivated* and *spontaneous* at very natural levels
Whereas scum!Andante tries to express them all fairly strongly
As town it will happen naturally over a progression as the game goes on and it might not happen in every post
As scum she wants to make sure she gets them in

[Klick]

Aureal seems town

Why's that?

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon

I actually hard townread Aureal and have talked about it in the thread
I just wanted to see what you'd say if I hard countered my thread narrative to see if you really hadn't read the thread. I think the answer is probably yes?

why would I go back and read people voting me? fuck that. not worth my time. Thus I expect truthful information when I'm here in the moment, not to be lied to then "lol checking to see if you were reading the thread" like why would I? if I really want to dig into me being voted it's just going to annoy me, and the "haha andante e-1" from whoever?? yeah no thanks. vote me out before I care, then it can be "haha andante was town"

VOTE: Klick

It's been a decent chunk of the conversation on the last page, I don't feel bad for checking to see if you've read the game

I think this conversation should be clearing for me if I'm honest
Andante and I are really clearly out-of-sync with each other and have different motivations for responding

[Klick]

Like Andante just gets annoyed that I'm calling her out on something dumb and not AI
The backlash is motivated by being frustrated by my push and reads as legitimate and I don't think it'd be legitimate if we were buddies

[Klick]

I just feel like if I'm mafia and I decided to bus my partner on D1 - I would play this game exactly the way Klick has. Just do it and try to lean back and let townies rip each other up while keeping my hands clean. Like every other person in this game feels like they just went straight at people's throats on d2/3 without really considering how it makes them look - Alisae, Myko, Gimli are all extremely aggressive and feel like tunneled townies - Aureal less so but at least Aureal voting right away. Meanwhile Klick is just kind of standing back and letting things fall where they may.

I have a feeling if we mislim today - Klick will be the kingmaker on D4 and if he's scum he will win.

So if we decide to not lim Klick I want the following to happen:

(1) Klick makes the call on the elimination today - I want him to actually be responsible here today.
(2) Klick votes first in D4 tomorrow - I don't want him to be floating and kingmaking again tomorrow and talking to both players and "seeing their POV" etc or whatever. Give Klick a deadline of voting by the time 96 hours is on the timer - make him 1v1 someone and see if he will actually hold up under pressure.

These are both things that I'm very fine with happening fwiw.

I do agree that the things you're pushing are both true and would make my life easier if I'm scum

On the other hand, they are things that apply to basically every game that I've played lately and are intentional choices I make in my town play

In other words, this behaviour is verifiably not alignment-indicative

[Klick]

the important thing is that andante felt trapped, and reacted accordingly, and

spazzed

out and voted klick.

Please try to avoid using this word.

[Klick]

Spoiler: klick's posts about andante before the 'trap'

Like Ari, I'm also interested in hearing more about what Andante has posted that you think is towny.

What content of Andante's are you townleaning her for and why?

I don't think anything Andante has done has been particularly towny thus far

VOTE: Andante

I believe u Datisi

My current theory is that there are indeed two A's on the scumteam and you voted the two wrong ones myko

I spent way too long trying to come up with a zingy way of expressing my Andante/Alisae tinfoil

Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion

She's an easy target

And that doesn't bother you, that they more or less open with: "this is how I always play, please don't vote me for it". Instead of just.. playing?

It's an easy target because it's the right target. Going for Andante we are going to do at some point, I don't think they get through an early game often. She's easy. You are the pot calling the kettle black here.

Not really I'd expect that kind of response from town more often than scum
This is a difference in philosophy where you seem to look for how you think town *should* play when they are doing what they should be doing
Whereas I look for how I think town *will* play without any particular expectation of quality
I remember this from playing with you previously

The only game I remember playing with Andante was a game that just ended and she was the most widely townread scum player
I didn't realise she normally doesn't get through early game?

@klick: are you a bus heavy scum player? maybe the game we played isn't a good comparison cause it was white flag. do you think you'd play d1 like that with scumdante?

I avoid bussing unless I'm justified in doing otherwise. I think Mafia is a very snowbally game and the numbers advantage is a lot more important for both teams than people like to acknowledge. I also don't have nearly enough confidence in keeping up my own scum game long-term to justify bussing in most situations.

The positionally-based reason why I'm not scum with Andante is because the shade I was throwing at her was legitimately related to why she was scum. The early suspicion of Andante might not have had the weight of an elimination earlier on, but, uh... it was accurate.

[Klick]

ari what's your POE now? you're scumreading klick, but who are you townreading, what's your solve looking like?

I feel like alisae + you both really believe what you're both saying so it makes me kind of worried that it's in aureal/klick - of those two Klick feels like the more prepared/makes sensy player. This is my first game with Aureal so I don't really have a lot of thoughts there tbh.

I think both Alisae AND Gimli are capable of producing the WIM required to have the argument they're having as scum here for exactly this reason

[Klick]

not really

I think what's stressing me the most about klick is how his aureal read is untouched throughout the game. I think the way aureal has played requires reassessing. she didn't vote on d2, she openvoted me on d3 and is just letting things happen here.

I did reassess and came to the same conclusion.

The reasons people think Aureal could be sus are fairly shallow and not accurate.

[Klick]

the read is made on an interaction [Mykonian vs Aureal] which occurred during D1 when Myko was pushing Aureal and Aureal was rebutting Myko.

If Klick actually read that interaction and thought Aureal is >99% town because of her comfort rebutting Mykonian - why doesn't he make that read and defend Aureal when she is actually at risk of being eliminated during D1 ?

1. I didn't and don't think Aureal was legitimately at risk of elimination on D1
2. I can read things at different times and have thoughts of differing strength regarding them. That's why people reread in the first place, to see if they come to any different conclusions than they did originally.

[Klick]

1. I didn't and don't think Aureal was legitimately at risk of elimination on D1

Okay that's not quite accurate
I didn't think there was legitimate REASON for an Aureal wagon to go through in that gamestate

[Klick]

I guess I struggle to reach the same conviction you purport to have in your reads so it feels like TMI to me.

What is a belief if you don't actually believe it?

I have a lot of thoughts on this and can respond to this in depth and I'd enjoy it but it feels like it'd get really tangential

[Klick]

unvoting the largest counterwagon to Aureal and voting for Alisae also doesn't really help Aureal.

If anything Klick should be asking Alisae to unvote if Klick is actually worried about Aureal getting quicklimmed?

I wasn't hugely worried about the consequences of an Aureal quicklim
I was concerned that ALISAE potentially wanted a quicklim to happen

[Klick]

A really sus Aureal quicklim probably actually tells us a lot about the game regardless of Aureal's flip

[Klick]

Klick is a really flexible player so I imagine he'll vote any of his suspects D1

This
Ari you've already asked me about this and I gave you an answer and you just... didn't like it?
I'm telling you things about how I always play and this is verifiable and it feels like you keep going 'but it's not believable!' when it's literally how almost every town game I've had in the last year at least has gone

I feel like you're trying to see me from a scum perspective to the detriment of vonsidering a town perspective

[Klick]

ok but how does voting Alisae resolve the issue? If you are worried that Alisae wants a quicklim to happen shouldn't you be trying to get alisae to unvote or one of the other people on the wagon to unvote?

I don't care about directly influencing others' actions. Like ever. That's not something I'm interested in doing as town in almost all circumstances unless there's a very very clear reason for it, like deciding-the-game kind of reason.

Aureal wagon actually going through D1 wouldn't have been the end of the world.

[Klick]

Lunch break over bye!!

[Klick]

bye

sorry if I am getting annoying for you to deal with I am not very good at changing my mind unfortunately

I am similar in that regard!
Which is why I'm stating a very high level of confidence. That's literally where I'm at

[Klick]

Spoiler: aureal's progression on andante from early defenses to voting her

lol I just realized that there's 4 A's hahahahaha

A's versus the world!

VOTE: Datisi

You can't just go declare the strategy out loud like that! There's more of them than us!

Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!

FACTS

Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.

Does having recently been Mafia have any bearing on the likelihood of someone being Mafia here?

Answer: no, it does not.

VOTE: Alisae, defend the honor of Roger Rabbit!

@Aureal

Did you vote Alisae because you found thier questioning of Andante scummy, or would you say it was just an RVS vote?

Do you have even a read on her, even a weak one?

A little of both, but just that question specifically, as I hadn't really connected it to the later stuff. It just kind of stuck out like a possible attempt to color perceptions of Andante, which would be kind of silly as it's obviously invalid reasoning but I could see it having an effect anyway. People aren't perfectly logical.

I suppose at this point I have a vague townread on Alisae. While they're being a bit uncharitable, I do like that there was a thought process behind the talk about past Mafia games; and more importantly, that they didn't feel the need to force a conclusion out of it.

VOTE: mykonian

It's been a decent chunk of the conversation on the last page, I don't feel bad for checking to see if you've read the game

Andante has claimed that not reading everything is not ai for her. Do you disagree with that assessment?

I think that in most of Gimli's interactions with Ari, he does not appear to be talking in a way that makes sense to be a townie talking to their top scum read [who they think is currently pushing you in bad faith.]

He looks like he is talking to a townie that he is trying to get to re-evaluate him (especially early on) / discredit her read if she doesn't (more of this later on).

Once I made it clear that I did not wish to interact with him on my scum read on him (largely because I find that to be a fruitless endeavor for both parties, and one of the worst ways to get a genuine re-evaluation of a scum read) I am now being described as tunneled to discredit my read as well.

I feel like a lot of this is echoing the way you were seeing me as well, would that be a reasonable assessment?

Anyway, I'm not sold on Gimli yet but I am trusting Klick and obviously we need to figure out Andante so I will VOTE: Andante here. I don't understand this slot at all- can anyone with meta on her explain how the heck someone who apparently thinks that reading 90% of the game is optional can manage to play this game?

Pedit: hi Andante, feel free to answer that question for yourself too please

so the progression is really just nonsensical. it's all softdefending andante by attacking pushes on her without a real read on andante throughout, to then voting andante for reasons that I don't think make much sense.

now the q is: is this scummy? maybe this is scummy

@klick pls interact with this

I can't interact with this right now but it's the first thing I'll do when I'm really available <3

[Klick]

Hey Gimli, I feel like your quote wall misses out on a pretty important quote from Aureal relating to Andante

I can't see where Andante claimed this prior to the post you quoted

I don't think not reading is AI in itself. I wanted to make sure that's what was actually happening though.

Yeah, was wondering what prompted you to check. You have something of a meta read on her that seems to clash with what others say, so I guess I'm trying to poke around at that stuff. And I've been staring at this struggling to get at what exactly I want to get at so I'm going to just leave it there for now.

Alisae: did you actually vote me because you think myko made a decent point, or did you just decide to go along with the idea that it's going to give you info on Herta?

I think this post is really towny I don't think Aureal posts this about a partner
It's really waffly but like unashamedly so? I feel like it contradicts the narrative being portrayed where Aureal goes from 'defending Andante' to 'voting Andante, possibly for towncred'. It's the transition piece you're missing. I feel like it demonstrates actual thought on Andante's alignment and aligns really well with the thoughts in the eventual vote post.

[Klick]

The other posts Aureal has about Andante are fairly flat/static
Which is what makes 192 so interesting
Without it you can make the argument like you kind of are where Aureal's read on Andante is political and changes towards the negative when it feels necessary
But with it I feel like Aureal was giving my meta read on Andante actual thought

[Klick]

is this all you got, aureal? been expecting you to town it up this gameday

I'm trying. It's a little hard to interact with this game when all of the activity happens when I'm sleeping. In addition to kind of being a fifth wheel who has relatively little experience and no meta with anyone but you (and it does feel like a lot of this game has been people interacting with others based on their meta, which just isn't very helpful to me ).

I feel like this is not getting enough credit as well when there are arguments like 'Aureal has done nothing since D1' are going around

People forget that different people have vastly different expectations of what is a reasonable amount of time to devote to a game
This game has actually just not been open very long and Aureal hasn't had a ton of time in which she could contribute

[Klick]

I'm not squinting hard at all I've had Aureal as town for a long time and it's come to me naturally

I feel like you're not really addressing what I've said in the context of it being a response to you talking about Aureal's progression on Andante and are instead responding to that post in isolation
Which feels strange to me

You say 192 says nothing about Andante but I hard disagree
Aureal is really clearly having thoughts about Andante there and I think you'd see that if you got out of the Aureal!scum tunnel for a second
She's seeing what people have said about Andante's meta. She has seen that I'm scumreading Andante based on reading Andante's way of playing differently to others, and is

actually processing the implications of that

. You see this thought process carried on in her eventual Andante vote where she *trusts me* and *sheeps my Andante vote*. The reason Aureal votes Andante is because she's following my meta, because she has decided she can trust my read there. There is GENUINE THOUGHT there.

[Klick]

let me ask you this: are you townreading aureal over me? is your POE me and alisae?

My honest answer right now is that I think it's just Alisae and neither of you are scum and so I don't believe the hypothetical world where it's one of the two of you is based in truth

If it's not Alisae then my evaluation has gone wrong somewhere and I would need to rethink both of you

If you're pointing a gun to my head and telling me there's one scum between you and Aureal and I have to choose now then my vote goes on you

[Klick]

VOTE: Alisae

Outside of er arguments against Gimli today, I would be interested if anyone legitimately townreads Alisae based on D1/D2 play.

[Klick]

Yeah I'm fine with this play from a scum perspective
Alisae is aware enough of the WIFOM/levels of play surrounding endgame scenarios like this that intentionally playing to no out to create one is entirely within her range

[Klick]

It's not like e actually has no out through what e is doing either
You get eliminated today and the game is far from unwinnable for er

[Klick]

It's not like e actually has no out through what e is doing either
You get eliminated today and the game is far from unwinnable for er

how do I win this game if I am a wolf

By eliminating Gimli and myself

[Klick]

It's not like e actually has no out through what e is doing either
You get eliminated today and the game is far from unwinnable for er

how do I win this game if I am a wolf

By eliminating Gimli and myself

And you think going for you @ F3 is winnable?

With either combination of Aristeia or Aureal absolutely

[Klick]

Why would I pick that fight
you're so much better than me

I have no clue why you think this
I'm very logical but I'm not persuasive

[Klick]

Ari actively wants to atm and Aureal is considering it

[Klick]

Why would I pick that fight
you're so much better than me

I have no clue why you think this
I'm very logical but I'm not persuasive

because my wolf game in micros when I am by myself is trash

Which is why you dig yourself into a 'Gimli is scum' tunnel
You can pull off one mislim while making it look like you have no plan
Then tomorrow you go 'welp, gg Klick' and bank on looking towny enough today to get the other player on your side

[Klick]

What *would* you be doing as wolf alone here Alisae?
Like *lay down and die* isn't the answer

[Klick]

My theory is that you'd play it very similar to how I'd want to and try to make your play seem illogical from a scum perspective and have that be your path to victory
Because you're already aware that your D1/D2 play isn't likely to endgame

[Klick]

'Why is Wavelength dead' is a good question regardless
I think Wavelength was comparably a consensus townread to me on D1 but I don't know why specifically Wavelength would be killed over myself N1
I was not expecting to survive N1

[Klick]

What *would* you be doing as wolf alone here Alisae?
Like *lay down and die* isn't the answer

I would probably opt to keep my options open instead of limiting what I can do.

I tend towards not believing this
It's not majorly influencing my read but I think in this situation as scum you'd basically be doing exactly what you're doing

[Klick]

Long day

Myko and Klick are both town.

Andante's reentry to the thread without having read anything makes more sense if she thought that she was at E-1, so I don't hate her interaction with Klick. But I also don't really town read Andante, would say null, so feels weird defending her

I think Wavelength kill does a fair amount to enable the myko elimination

[Klick]

Help me really clearly see that Gimli is a wolf then

I think Gimli's D1 is really good

[Klick]

Gnight yall

[Klick]

I'm here!!

Aureal, do you feel particularly strongly between Gimli and Alisae? I think you're leaning Gimli but like is there a strength of read difference there? I'm interested in seeing how you sort between them especially since they both look pretty similar on the surface in this day phase

[Klick]

Gg Alisae! I'm sorry if my approach on D3 was slightly frustrating, I was feeling really confident that everyone else was town and didn't feel confident that a fully open 1 on 1 conversation with you would end well for town.

I feel really good about my reads this game. I had Andante/Alisae as the solve in my head on like Page 3.

[Klick]

honestly to win I feel like I had to play perfectly + a better d1 + something has to go wrong in village
maybe under those conditions I could take Ari to F3 with Klick and Ari votes Klick there.

This was the play I was worried about yes and the reason I really wanted you instead of Gimli (besides Gimli just reading as town)
Me killing Aureal instead of Ari is an entirely plausible play I'd make as scum hahaha

But yeah I think the main thing was D1 needed to be stronger

[Klick]

maybe I just had to push klick for donowalling me when he asked me to talk about Gimli but like ya idunno Klick OP

Getting Ari to vote me was definitely on the cards
I think from there you'd have to sell Aureal on it and I think she wasn't going to bite but it's possible