Micro 1070 | a micro normal | Endgame

[Alisae]

actually I should strike out the word accurate there because I've posted inaccurate cases too and I've gotten the same response.
Obviously I can't see it being inaccurate when in the moment so in those moments that thought process still comes up

[Klick]

Klick, can you give me any more context for why you were scumreading Andante before the check on whether she was reading things?

So right before this game started, I finished a game where Andante was scum and was the most townread player in the game. Just as I was starting to work out that Andante might be scum, I got NKed in that game. I put a lot of work into trying to figure out the differences between town-Andante and scum-Andante. And so I entered this game with that analysis fresh on my mind.
As for that analysis itself, I gave it for the most part in this post:

The thing that Andante does as town is she has thoughts off the cuff and presents them basically unfiltered. In older scum games I believe she has a lot of trouble imitating this play. In her most recent scum game, she imitated this by presenting lots of potential thoughts, but all at a surface level, without the *belief* behind them. She basically pushed whatever was convenient for her at the time, there wasn't a consistent thought process.

And there are a few more nuances that you can tease out of that that are relevant to this game, but the main takeaway should be that: Andante BLEEDS natural solving when she's town. There's a really clear difference in mindset between Andante as town who says exactly what she thinks, and Andante as scum who tries really hard to give what she THINKS looks like genuine takes.

I had a hunch from Andante's early posting that she didn't feel natural. Wavelength picked up on it as well:

VOTE: Andante

They have had the most stilted entrance so far. ITS THE GUILT

The first page has a lot of Andante posts and together they feel... kind of nervous? That was my take on reading them. The RVS posts she gave felt forced, like each one was meant to project that she was excited for the game, like she needed to pretend she was excited for the game because she would be much more comfortable as town than as scum.

In order to go in more depth I'd need to like give really in-depth analyses of specific Andante posts in the first three pages and show the things that I just noticed subconsciously from them that felt *nervous*. The point being that I had a tone read on her, felt like she was trying to sell me *confident* and *motivated* and *spontaneous*, when what I was seeing was *nervous*. And this was all on a subconscious level.

[Klick]

I think the main difference is that as town she shows *confident* and *motivated* and *spontaneous* at very natural levels
Whereas scum!Andante tries to express them all fairly strongly
As town it will happen naturally over a progression as the game goes on and it might not happen in every post
As scum she wants to make sure she gets them in

[Klick]

Aureal seems town

Why's that?

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon

I actually hard townread Aureal and have talked about it in the thread
I just wanted to see what you'd say if I hard countered my thread narrative to see if you really hadn't read the thread. I think the answer is probably yes?

why would I go back and read people voting me? fuck that. not worth my time. Thus I expect truthful information when I'm here in the moment, not to be lied to then "lol checking to see if you were reading the thread" like why would I? if I really want to dig into me being voted it's just going to annoy me, and the "haha andante e-1" from whoever?? yeah no thanks. vote me out before I care, then it can be "haha andante was town"

VOTE: Klick

It's been a decent chunk of the conversation on the last page, I don't feel bad for checking to see if you've read the game

I think this conversation should be clearing for me if I'm honest
Andante and I are really clearly out-of-sync with each other and have different motivations for responding

[Klick]

Like Andante just gets annoyed that I'm calling her out on something dumb and not AI
The backlash is motivated by being frustrated by my push and reads as legitimate and I don't think it'd be legitimate if we were buddies

[Alisae]

I absolutely agree with Klick.
Andante voting Klick with that post is just absolutely just bizarre

[Alisae]

It would be really impressive wolf play to try to "trap" your own partner. They would have to be able to deceive their partner to do it.

[Alisae]

less pain for the brain if I just assume that that is not what is happening in this game and that what is happening in this game is that Gimli saw an opportunity to try to get cred on Andante and he went for it. It gives him the cred that he needs to be able to eventually try to position himself to go for my miselim if he wants it and I feel like that's something he's tried to do yesterday and now today.

He had a moment in thread where he mentioned that Aureal was like "you're just letting us kill each other, huh?" and I wanted to think so too but I feel like her play being not really agenda-based as well as her voting herta, herta being replaced followed by a conversation on if we wanted to quickly kill herta right then and there, followed by an unvote from Aureal, I think just makes it much more likely that the slot is just town

[Alisae]

Sorry for screaming maybe I'll start playing mafia like a sane person again and remember that I need to actually try to "case" the other players to prove their innocence's to others if it really is just Gimli (which it is ofc)

[Alisae]

He had a moment in thread where he mentioned that Aureal was like "you're just letting us kill each other, huh?" and I wanted to think so too but I feel like her play being not really agenda-based as well as her voting herta, herta being replaced followed by a conversation on if we wanted to quickly kill herta right then and there, followed by an unvote from Aureal, I think just makes it much more likely that the slot is just town

A lot of this was said in this post but I left it unsaid. I don't know if Gimli was calling this shallow but I would like to think that this read is not shallow and that shallow is just a buzzword here to make it look bad.

"Hi I'm just not going to play the first gameday kthxbai"

Really think that calls for a replacement but in case they are around at all VOTE: Herta

UNVOTE: Herta

My thoughts were also much more in line with Datisi, and from four people so far claiming uninformed that seems to be bearing out as more valid. If both scum and Alisae's expected three town have that role that means literally all of us who've yet to weigh in. Just not seeming so likely.

This I think is just more likely to come from town than a wolf

[Alisae]

I think it's really easy to oversimplify my play here as "me not considering other possibilities."
If anything, I would say Gimli throughout this day phase has played in a way that tries to create opportunities. He's asked about Aureal but he's not putting any of the work in actually solving Aureal, and if he is, he's not showing it. The only thing he said about Aureal today is that her posts were bad and that he thinks she is letting us kill each other.

[Aristeia]

It would be really impressive wolf play to try to "trap" your own partner. They would have to be able to deceive their partner to do it.

he didn't trap Andante though?

[Aristeia]

Andante voting Klick with that post is just absolutely just bizarre

yes it is bizarre

which is why it's strange Klick decided to go somewhere else.

and from a scum!andante POV doesn't it make sense to vote Klick as distancing/theatre?

[Aristeia]

I'm honestly not even that confident on Klick being last scum - like every person in the game kind of townread Klick - which is why it's really strange for Klick to not have been nightkilled N1 - instead the shot was on Wavelength?

[Aristeia]

I just feel like if I'm mafia and I decided to bus my partner on D1 - I would play this game exactly the way Klick has. Just do it and try to lean back and let townies rip each other up while keeping my hands clean. Like every other person in this game feels like they just went straight at people's throats on d2/3 without really considering how it makes them look - Alisae, Myko, Gimli are all extremely aggressive and feel like tunneled townies - Aureal less so but at least Aureal voting right away. Meanwhile Klick is just kind of standing back and letting things fall where they may.

I have a feeling if we mislim today - Klick will be the kingmaker on D4 and if he's scum he will win.

So if we decide to not lim Klick I want the following to happen:

(1) Klick makes the call on the elimination today - I want him to actually be responsible here today.
(2) Klick votes first in D4 tomorrow - I don't want him to be floating and kingmaking again tomorrow and talking to both players and "seeing their POV" etc or whatever. Give Klick a deadline of voting by the time 96 hours is on the timer - make him 1v1 someone and see if he will actually hold up under pressure.

[Aristeia]

like the thing that makes me really concerned about saying the POE is exactly {Alisae, Gimli} is that this 1v1 feels very no holds barred fight to the death and those tend to be TvT more than TvS - because we only have two eliminations left and both of them feel like they are happy to make sure the last two eliminations are alisae - gimli in some order and that's not really winning for whoever is scum in that pair. Even if you win the 1v1 today which is very difficult you're dead like 99% of the time tomorrow so why are they even doing this play?

[Gimli]

I'm honestly not even that confident on Klick being last scum - like every person in the game kind of townread Klick - which is why it's really strange for Klick to not have been nightkilled N1 - instead the shot was on Wavelength?

alisae did that to frame me

then killed enchant instead of you cause e can't AtE to anyone else

is that a good enough explanation?

[Gimli]

It would be really impressive wolf play to try to "trap" your own partner. They would have to be able to deceive their partner to do it.

he didn't trap Andante though?

the important thing is that andante felt trapped, and reacted accordingly, and spazzed out and voted klick. that doesn't happen in a svs, I don't think.

I think it's funny that it's the same thing I repeated throughout d3 that alisae is using to clear klick, when e had no concise thoughts about the slot and was just writing klick off as a townie 'cause its just gimli'.

[Aristeia]

I'm honestly not even that confident on Klick being last scum - like every person in the game kind of townread Klick - which is why it's really strange for Klick to not have been nightkilled N1 - instead the shot was on Wavelength?

alisae did that to frame me

then killed enchant instead of you cause e can't AtE to anyone else

is that a good enough explanation?

how does killing Wavelength frame you?

[Aristeia]

the important thing is that andante felt trapped, and reacted accordingly, and spazzed out and voted klick. that doesn't happen in a svs, I don't think.

Or she is trying to make them look not aligned?

[Aristeia]

like people do things for a reason - do you think she was going to get Klick eliminated? Did you think it was going to make people townread her?

[Gimli]

Sorry for screaming maybe I'll start playing mafia like a sane person again and remember that I need to actually try to "case" the other players to prove their innocence's to others if it really is just Gimli (which it is ofc)

I know this is pretty egotistical but I want town to lose if alisae is town and is shit pushing my slot like this since d2. I don't normally play anything well, but my d1 was excellent and extremely towny. everyone in their right minds can see that I'm likely town, other than this loud potato head I'm having to endure.

I want alisae to realise, if town, that e is not even half as good as e thinks e is and is simply bad enough to hard throw a game just like everyone else is. and if e is mafia I don't want to reward that play with a victory. right now given the disingenuous way e is pushing me, I think it's just alisae. I can see the worlds in which is aureal, but would rather sheep klick's read.

if it's aureal and aureal is fooling everyone, that's great she can win

if it's klick I'll be surprised, and hand it to ari as being much better than me at gamesolving (which of course she is), but I can only vote klick if the mason forces my hand, and when it inevitably flips town I'm gonna be very very sad.

idk if I'm helping anyone by writing this out loud. gonna heat up some coffee and be around in a bit if people wanna talk.

[Gimli]

how does killing Wavelength frame you?

wave was scumreading me very strongly

[Gimli]

like people do things for a reason - do you think she was going to get Klick eliminated? Did you think it was going to make people townread her?

andante also spaz voted me when she returned to the thread with 3 votes. alisae saw that as distancing, the same way you're seeing the klick vote as distancing. feels like the same kind of reaction though, and it can't be distancing with both slots since one of us is necessarily town.

let me get caffeine in my blood. let's talk this out.

[Gimli]

Spoiler: klick's posts about andante before the 'trap'

Like Ari, I'm also interested in hearing more about what Andante has posted that you think is towny.

What content of Andante's are you townleaning her for and why?

I don't think anything Andante has done has been particularly towny thus far

VOTE: Andante

I believe u Datisi

My current theory is that there are indeed two A's on the scumteam and you voted the two wrong ones myko

I spent way too long trying to come up with a zingy way of expressing my Andante/Alisae tinfoil

Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion

She's an easy target

And that doesn't bother you, that they more or less open with: "this is how I always play, please don't vote me for it". Instead of just.. playing?

It's an easy target because it's the right target. Going for Andante we are going to do at some point, I don't think they get through an early game often. She's easy. You are the pot calling the kettle black here.

Not really I'd expect that kind of response from town more often than scum
This is a difference in philosophy where you seem to look for how you think town *should* play when they are doing what they should be doing
Whereas I look for how I think town *will* play without any particular expectation of quality
I remember this from playing with you previously

The only game I remember playing with Andante was a game that just ended and she was the most widely townread scum player
I didn't realise she normally doesn't get through early game?

@klick: are you a bus heavy scum player? maybe the game we played isn't a good comparison cause it was white flag. do you think you'd play d1 like that with scumdante?