Micro 1052: Lake Melancholy [END]

[Shuichi Saihara]

We can choose neither hope nor despair! That's exactly what the mastermind wants us to do!

VOTE: Draw

[Shuichi Saihara]

I'm Cephrir, by the way. Playing differently, I hope.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Trust your Ultimate Detective to solve the game!

...Eventually. Maybe.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Not saying anything new here, but I think the only way to play ascetic that would benefit the forces of despair would be hiding it. As it is, Prism has a strong reputation so I'm sure they're aware of the meta-prescribed move. So I don't view it as indicative of anything.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Shuichi, what's the process behind deciding to out your main post 1?

The information is already out there for those who care to look, and I find the asymmetrical information brought about by those who have enough time on their hands to research it vs. those who don't to be unfair and distasteful.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Shuichi, what's the process behind deciding to out your main post 1?

The information is already out there for those who care to look, and I find the asymmetrical information brought about by those who have enough time on their hands to research it vs. those who don't to be unfair and distasteful.

You are not roleplayer just in case?

Depends on what you mean. I have already made an in-character post, though I likely won't make too many more, and my Shuichi style is different from the one I employ on my main account.

[Shuichi Saihara]

My point is that you could have just played on your main.

It's a headspace thing. Cephrir is my real self, but I'm a gut player and a lazy, sassy bitch. Shuichi is meant as more of a logical/tryhard account, and my other public alt Chandra uses anger and aggression to develop reads.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Page 3 is the latest and greatest in shitposting trends, actually.

Dwlee might be town for lack of self-consciousness.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Only two spots left on this skitter wagon. Better bus now scum butts

This confidence is a meme, right?

[Shuichi Saihara]

Page 3 is the latest and greatest in shitposting trends, actually.

Dwlee might be town for lack of self-consciousness.

isn't lampshading by mentioning the omgus kinda self-conscious

I suppose. I was thinking more "this post looks iffy on first glance and scum might rethink it."

[Shuichi Saihara]

I think whether OMGUS is scummy or not depends on the person and how they do it.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Not super confident in my setup spec abilities, but it appears that Ari is town, so at least there's that.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Novice mailman is a pretty strange role no doubt. Why is a mailman so good it needs to be nerfed?

[Shuichi Saihara]

I could see it pairing nicely with something like a 1-shot friendly neighbor maybe?

[Shuichi Saihara]

Novice mailman is a pretty strange role no doubt. Why is a mailman so good it needs to be nerfed?

it seems to me like a lot of closed setups have at least one role that on some level is "the mods messing with players who try to setup spec"

Possible. It seems like a mod trap either way really. If it's not an intentional wild goose chase or red herring, then it's punishing scum for standard play, right? I guess that's why I find myself searching for a third explanation.

[Shuichi Saihara]

then it's punishing scum for standard play

Or wait it's the opposite of this maybe? IDK.

[Shuichi Saihara]

if Prism is town, it would be punishing town in a 9P for a very logical thing to happen on Day 1

Yeah you're right

[Shuichi Saihara]

Help, I keep agreeing with whoever talked last.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Where I'm at right now on a sort of gut level I think is, the role might make Prism scum, need more data, but there's no way I'm going to lim on just that as another explanation may present itself in the future. I confess to being mechphobic. But I should put on my Trying Hat later and go over it again.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Vpb why are u wagoning me?

You're having too many SERIOUS reads based on meh things.

I missed this post, but it answers a question I asked VPB. This is hypocritical at best, since it itself is a serious read based on a meh thing. It's hardly a reason to call for more votes on skitter. The whole iso dances between overconfident and distant sniping.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Anyways i want to do this now

VOTE: vpb

Sweating HARD

What is with the bravado?

[Shuichi Saihara]

Zero points for claiming ascetic. that's basic moves.

I could just pick this post instead idk I'm right about what I said

its the fact that you said it and the example you gave doesn't support it. that makes me think you just pulled up his iso and grabbed a post that you thought supported your argument to add to your evidence pile. but if it was a genuine read then there was some actual post out there that informed that read, and you would have found that one instead

I thought this was going to be omgus but it was actually surprisingly good.

[Shuichi Saihara]

VOTE: Dwlee

[Shuichi Saihara]

Severely doubt that Ari's master scum plan is to pretend not to understand what's happening. She's better than that.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Severely doubt that Ari's master scum plan is to pretend not to understand what's happening. She's better than that.

Do you actually understand Prism's argument?

It sounded like you lost a previous game because you started hunting for a partner too early, so by trying to form a pair now you're outside your town range? It doesn't strike me as a very good argument.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Severely doubt that Ari's master scum plan is to pretend not to understand what's happening. She's better than that.

Do you actually understand Prism's argument?

It sounded like you lost a previous game because you started hunting for a partner too early, so by trying to form a pair now you're outside your town range? It doesn't strike me as a very good argument.

in context let me explain what happened that game;


I was pushing Meg

Prism defended Meg,

I found Prism's defense scummy.

I hardshoved Meg through instead of pivoting for Prism.


I don't understand how this criticism applies to my actions this game where I am not shoving either Skitter or Prism.

Me neither

[Shuichi Saihara]

Was your suspicion of skitter mech Ari? I thought it was her reaction to the mech, which is a different thing.

[Shuichi Saihara]

vp this seems like a weird thing to pick on ngl

Nah. You catch scum D1 in a game like this by looking for people acting awkward. Especially in a game with lots of killers like this, scum will have a hard time finding a rhythm immediately. They will misread intentions and try to act natural. There is a whole artiface to D1 as scum where you need to get in the flow.

Are you this intellectual pick on stuff from the sidelines person, or are you the MORE SKITTER VOTES, I LAUGH IN THE FACE OF YOUR WIMPY VOTE person? I'm getting all kinds of whiplash. Maybe you should check your PT for coaching.

[Shuichi Saihara]

I'll go with keeping my prism and cephrir reads as is

Are you telling me that neither of us has done anything you find more alignment indicative than whatever each of us did on the first 2 pages?

[Shuichi Saihara]

I do like what you've done with your hair.

It's very fashion foward.

You almost got a laugh, but not quite. Keep trying!

so i decided to open one of the pages i didn't read earlier and i see THIS and i'm like

Oh dear, i'm doing this all wrong apparently >.<

Anyways can we talk about how scummy vpb is being and how stilted he sounds ^

okay i think i get what my subconsciousness was trying to tell me

skitt's fight with baltar *really* reminds me of the fight she and i had very early on in the recently finished large normal where she wanted to pick a fight with me early but it's wasn't going exactly right so she kept being like "but guys look how scummy is datisi being look!!!" and like

this is very very much reminding me of that

This post read genuine to me. The rest of Datisi's posts didn't make me think anything in particular.

Prism raised a good point that skitter was kind of sidelining in the Prism/Ari fight and not giving much of an opinion. I repeated this and skitter accused me of not taking much of a position (when I clearly stated early on that I think Ari looks better out of it).

Pot to kettle. Yes, you gave an opinion, but you were still very much happy on the sidelines. As I've alluded to previously, you haven't seemed inclined to get your hands dirty with much of anything.

skitter isn't screaming town to me like she has done in some past games, but granted, I was scum in all of those games and didn't actually have to read her.

[Shuichi Saihara]

I'm pretty ambivalent about a lot of the discussions.

Town
======
Enchant
VP Baltar
Aristeia
Dwlee99
skitter30
fireisred
Shuichi
Datisi
======
Scum

Between VP Baltar and skitter30 I'd vote skitter. His posts are about catching awkwardness/uncomfortable tone and posturing. He found skitter's content overwrought and her reaction to votes stilted. He's not town to me but I don't see this as scummy. I still find skitter's posturing around me/Aristeia questionable and disagree with Aristeia that she'd more explicitly jump into the fray as scum.

Bottom three can really go in any order. Datisi goes at the bottom because their catchup struck me as very arbitrary in trying to push. 341 on skitter and the followup about it was awful imo. The page 1 "I don't get this" when they just thought another possibility was questionable. 353 was okay.

fireisredsir and Shuichi like, exist. Shuichi definitely exists. fireisredsir has made some points that I look at and just go "OK". Dwlee I think is fine, but am used to much more passive play (Slaughter Hour, D&C) so maybe scum shrug.

What have you found town-indicative from Dwlee?

[Shuichi Saihara]

All of your townreads are strange and underwhelming

[Shuichi Saihara]

I found your VP Baltar townread strange because your comments on him in that post seem to indicate a null read. I have to assume it is in fact a townread since I asked why you townread Dwlee and you provided an answer, so you must townread everyone above them as well.

You spent most of today voting Aristeia so that's obviously a strange move.

Having Enchant as a top townread at this point strikes me as pretty silly. Maybe even intentionally silly. I thought you were supposed to be good at this game and I struggle to believe there's nothing as AI as that in these pages.

The Dwlee townread is strange to me because even the reason you gave seems pretty easy to fake. And I think they're scum at the moment so that's a factor.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Pot to kettle. Yes, you gave an opinion, but you were still very much happy on the sidelines. As I've alluded to previously, you haven't seemed inclined to get your hands dirty with much of anything.

This is a

bad

take.

How am I not "getting my hands dirty"? Or rather, what do you think I should be getting my hands dirty with more/have not commented on?

Stuff, in general!

Like I said earlier, I think you've been doing mainly passive sniping on subjects other than skitter, though she gets some of the "just throwing shade" posts as well like 318, which I also notice now is just a bad post in general for moving the goalposts.

Like, you said "I'm team Ari" and then didn't post about the subject anymore even though it was the main event. You could've supported Ari, for example.

Another example, you threw out a townread on Dwlee with no commentary. They're currently copping votes, so it would make sense to get in the trenches a little and explain that read.

[Shuichi Saihara]

If you really want me to walk through my entire progression with Aristeia I can but I think that it shouldn't be a surprise given my posts this morning.

Honestly no I would greatly prefer we collectively move on from that.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Zero points for claiming ascetic. that's basic moves.

I could just pick this post instead idk I'm right about what I said

its the fact that you said it and the example you gave doesn't support it. that makes me think you just pulled up his iso and grabbed a post that you thought supported your argument to add to your evidence pile. but if it was a genuine read then there was some actual post out there that informed that read, and you would have found that one instead

It does support it and I already knew I was right so I just grabbed the first post from each player's iso that was showing they were playing the game cause skitter was acting like no one was at that point which was not my impression at all when I read. I didn't read the thread marking down posts like "yea this one was doing stuff" I just knew people did and had to go find it

@shuchi - The reason I'm town reading dwlee is this exchange with Fire. I can see the intent of what dwlee was doing with the posts he picked, even as they were not necessarily the best examples. If you're scum, you just likely don't do this. You spend the extra 10 mins to find the best argument you can. As scum, I always feel more compelled to be meticulous in my posting. Here, Dwlee is trying to get a meaning across without necessarily having any self consciousness about the posts they are picking. The post they picked from me wasn't a great example, but I can see what Dwlee meant about that post being effort. (I am of course biased here because I KNOW what I was actually doing with that post, even as it looks fluffier on its face).

Interesting idea to come to a townread for that. When I see a defense, I'm usually thinking "is this good enough for me to drop the suspicion I had for the point being responded to." Unless you just mean the townread is for the very thing fire was scumreading, which I can understand.

[Shuichi Saihara]

You're also ignoring posts: 169, 211, 214, 240, 268, all of which contain commentary on their argument, and quite lot of which is before prism poked me.

Ok. If I'm being very generous, I can see how you feel maligned maybe. But there are a lot of weak takes in these posts too:

From post 169:

I dont really have thoughts on your claim / prism's role beyond: things will shake themselves out eventually

Post 211 is a little more substantial, so that's fair.

From post 214:

And i think prism

probably

believes what she's pushing ari for rn

This is all of post 240 you cite:

I dont know. I'm sure u can, that's just not the vibe i'm getting rn

Post 268 is you explaining Prism's argument to Ari when she said she didn't understand.


Like, these are your own examples, so I still think you're overstating your positions, but I acknowledge you might see this as more committed than I do.

I like that you were able to take this step back but dislike that reviewing the evidence didn't cause you to step back even further -- I hadn't looked at the posts skitter cited but overall they look like they pretty strongly support her point.

[Shuichi Saihara]

VP it feels like your dwlee read is rooted in how you specifically play mafia-alignment and not on any actual meta or read of how Dwlee plays.

Dwlee is scary.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Meh. But I cant be here much more today so I can't really turn that meh into a switch or a yes.

[Shuichi Saihara]

I feel like I am going to have to meta all of Baltar, Cephir, and fireisredsir to have any idea how to read them and I straight up do not want to do that

My other idea is just burn the skitter and honestly good chance it works good but god help us all if it doesn't and that approach would probably tilt her off the end of the earth.

If you figure out how to read me, let me know. I have no idea.

[Shuichi Saihara]

That only works this year! Grr.

Also sorry that Shuichi won't be providing as much entertainment.

[Shuichi Saihara]

I think there's enough material for me to start trying, but is there enough motivation? Unclear. I guess we'll find out on my morning off tomorrow.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Thanks. But shh, don't tell anyone, I need this whole "not actually good at town" facade for my scum game to work.

More seriously I think sometimes if I'd just believe in myself I'd actually be good. Then the doubts come rolling in.

[Shuichi Saihara]

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=82512

He's talking abt this one. I would again like to point out that its different from whatever he thinks i'm doing to you here, in that that one my partner was hevily under fire, so i just bussed hard (maybe after coming back from vla idk)

And this one if i'm partners with u i'd have just decided to randomly start bussing you as my first oush of the game, which i wouldnt do ...

Noted. I mean, I obviously know we aren't partners, so there is already a lack of merit there.

What I am looking for is the exact conditions the bussing started under. One of course busses when a buddy is going down regardless, which is definitely different than what datisi is describing, which is bus as an optimal strategy in micro games (which I don't agree with at all).

I'll give this a look later today. Thanks.

Why is this exercise interesting to you? Since as you pointed out, you should know skitter is not bussing you.

[Shuichi Saihara]

I think whether OMGUS is scummy or not depends on the person and how they do it.

What is your assessment of skitters OMGUS this game?

I think I'd need to reread your argument to answer this, which I should probably do anyway, although analyzing 1v1s is something I am not skilled at.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Why is this exercise interesting to you?

Because I want to understand Datisi's thought process to see if it's genuine or not.

Thought so and I'm astounded by the effort level.

[Shuichi Saihara]

my cat just died i don't think me posting today is a thing that's gonna happen anymore

[Shuichi Saihara]

Hello, I'm going to try posting to distract myself. But the Shuichi Hat thing isn't happening today.

[Shuichi Saihara]

I caught up but I think I'm too fried to have much to say about it.

I'll just break character to say my gut still wants my vote where it is and I have fuckall to back that up right now.

[Shuichi Saihara]

I wouldn't be surprised if enchant was scum just watching this go down

[dwlee vote intensifies]

THis is exactly what I expect scum to conclude here. It's lazy.

[Shuichi Saihara]

My to-review list is Dwlee, skitter, VP and maybe Prism, although the thought of rereading Prism's posts and trying to understand them all fills me with existential dread.

[Shuichi Saihara]

I wouldn't be surprised if enchant was scum just watching this go down

[dwlee vote intensifies]

THis is exactly what I expect scum to conclude here. It's lazy.

Do you expect me to not think it is /possible/ enchant is just vibing through this as scum? Conclude is a uh very strong word for my post

No, but I do expect you to develop more interesting takes. I think it's possible too, but I don't really care right now.

[Shuichi Saihara]

I think Prism is mildly townie but I wouldn't mind flipping cause ascetic claim + scary + novice mailman

What have you found mildly townie about Prism?

their tilt

no uh I liked their read on Enchant but only if enchant is actually town.

Kill enchant pls

So you're telling me that your Prism townread is based on Enchant being town, but you're sure enough about Enchant scum to want to kill him... so how does the Prism read make sense again?

[Shuichi Saihara]

Does anyone actually think Enchant is townie

I have literally no idea how to determine Enchant's alignment ever.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Datisi is town. Would not recommend that vote.

[Shuichi Saihara]

why is it ridiculous? people can be logically correct and scum at the same time. you are very often. im not tryna be pedantic here i actually think this is somewhat significant since you are strongly dismissing a suspicion for something that i think is clearly invalid. so i want you to explain more in detail what your thought process is on this point

I agree with this and I suspect dwlee so you know it's legit.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Let's go from opposite.

Why i need to vote prism again?

I think Prism is mafia because of mechanics and dayplay.



Mechanically speaking - I don't think it makes sense to have a town novice mailman and a town ascetic in a micro - you're setting up a very natural conflict to occur almost immediately because the mailman will think they are supposed to catch the ascetic and the ascetic is actually a mafia ascetic - you are immediately putting the town down one elim a large number of times and I don't see how you can compensate the town with another PR to offset this in a micro since our margin of error is very slim - we functionally usually only get 3 mislims total.

Also I don't think the setup makes sense for a town ascetic and a mafia ascetic because town ascetic claiming on D1 is going to draw out the mailman claim which then can't really find the mafia ascetic because the mailman will just get killed at night.

also novice mailman is an extremely weak role - functionally the only thing it can do is find a mafia ascetic that did not claim. You can't really set up a code to exchange claim or fake claim since by the time the message is sent, you're at D3 which is elo if we do not hit a mafia in d1/d2.

also like novice mailman is not a role that when claimed makes you town or w/e - it's not like a friendly neighbor or a mason in terms of power level that can prove itself.

I think in Micros, the power level of the town roles should be usually mason equivalent - as in 2 masons v 2 mafia 5 VT is a baseline level of balance.

so I just have trouble believing that a novice mailman role would have no utility or be purposefully a red herring to get a TvT conflict on D1 it's just silly in terms of balancing a micro. I can see a miller in a larger game like a Mini or a Large but in a Micro it just feels much too scumsided for me to accept.

Why does Prism claim ascetic as a mafia ascetic? - I think she has some expectation that she will be targeted at night. She enjoys playing mafia but she absolutely hates mechanical guilties with a passion - I think she has a strong enough reputation that nearly any TPR worth their salt would target her on night one and she knows this - I think she decided to claim it because why not? I don't think she expected a role as niche as "novice mailman" to exist on the TPR side - mechanically it pigeonholes her slot as mafia - that's why her initial kneejerk reaction was to hardpush me as mafia who was headhunting her etc by making up such a claim. I don't think I'm nearly creative enough to make up such a role to target her because I'm not a very bright person.

I am unsure exactly why she switched tack later on in the day - I believe she thinks maybe it is difficult to flip me or perhaps I would leave her alone if she townreads me and uses AtE.

On her dayplay I think she is decidedly less sharp than she usually is and it feels like she's more in anti-spew mode where she's just bantering and having fun rather than actually trying to push/hunt seriously which I know she is extremely good at.

I think she's taken this line of play as scum rather than her usual extremely strong and thread dominant style because she knows that I have certain expectations of how she plays mafia and she is trying to get townread off of indifference[yes I actually townread her when she's bored and joking I know it's stupid]

The overall feeling I get from reading her play this game is that she's more interested in surviving, giving few hints about associatives and not really interested in actually pushing/killing anyone she suspects, she feels like she is browsing through a brochure for like which hat to wear.

For the mech stuff- it looks like scum should be informed or have some hint about this interaction, too. I see it as strange in either case.

If anyone has another explanation for the mailman existing, they might want to say so, unless they're something really powerful.

I agree that Prism's day play has not felt sharp. I don't have much of a baseline for her save reputation, but my impression is that scum should be quivering in their boots with terror, and she has not been giving them any reason to do that so far.

[Shuichi Saihara]

UNVOTE: so the day can't randomly end before i'm ready

[Shuichi Saihara]

i can buy that i am feeling off this game

that does not change the fact that i think you often scumread me for nonsense that is firmly part of my towngame

i don't think scum attacks enchant when nobody is scumreading them or enchnat and it's obviously gonna be looked down upon bc hurr durr lhf

My (minimal) experience with Dwlee makes me think they could do it to evoke this exact thought process.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Shuichi attempts to get his head in the game. It's not very effective. Shuichi became confused!

I'm ascetic.

I want to give townpoints to this except i think scum-prism probably claims it too?

Shockingly that is actually +town for Enchant because he's not reading the fake PM as scum lmao

Idk if scum claims it right out the gate, i think town nearly always does (or at least town who's moderately experienced, whatever)

Mailman is the one where you send messages at night?

I'm not sure that's damning for prism tbh

I'm not sure 'satisfied' is the right word, more a combo of:
Their thouhht could be plausible and i'm feeling a bit worse abt vpb now

~

I dont really have thoughts on this ari/prism thing, i think they can plausibly be tvt

There's a lot of hedging here. 32 doesn't do anything besides try to look town -- as I write this, I'm thinking the entire concept of "I want to townread X, but I won't" is scummy, which is an original thing that's coming up for me right now; it looks like a town thought process but avoids committing to any read. 196 calls the conflict TvT without really calling it TvT ("I don't really have thoughts, except here are my thoughts"). "I'm not sure that damning" reads similarly, and "I don't think" would have served just as nicely in that slot meaning-wise.

I do not immediately recall what pushed VPB to go on here early, but if we were at post 200 now, I would go for it.

Vpb why are u wagoning me?

You're having too many SERIOUS reads based on meh things.

You realize i can *very* easily bounce this read back at you, right?

And also i think you're vastly overestimating the strength of my reads ar present

The phrasing of "you realize I can" substantially changes the tone here. It could be a point about hypocrisy, but instead it is a threat. Granted, I am unsure what scum would hope to gain by threatening a townie.

Welcome to Pedantry Hour, evidently. More to come.

More general comment, skitter doesn't seem interested in explaining her reads at this point, only stating them. I can chalk this up to her being in an airport though.

I have yes. I'm not convinced either of u are scum

I dont think ari enters the game claiming novice mailman and uses that to push you (/ me) - while scum-her might want to push us two, i dont think she thinks this would br a particularly convincing/winning path

I dont have a strong read on you, but i similarly dont think you beinf ascetic is inherently scum indicative

We can at least say you're probably not scum together, i suppose

And i think prism probably believes what she's pushing ari for rn

Vpb these posts are kinda sus ngl, especially since they form the bulk of your content; i have a hard time believing you believe that ...

My argument is that you previously went on a snipehunt chasing my partner before me in the Mini Normal. I don't think you even start on that path again and just focus squarely on me.

Your response to this was that you understood the connection. However you didn't spend that much time on it, and you weren't actually voting skitter. In comparison, you actually wound up forcing my "partner" through first in the other game as you were already there. This distinction is a mitigating response with further depth of context, not a complete rejection.

Perhaps you are in fact town and this distinction critical. Acting like there's obviously no real connection and it's irrational from my end to expect this makes me suspect it is in bad faith.

You're behaving differently than how town-prism thinks you would behave here - namely, she doesn't think you would start a push on a teamread involving here again after the events of that game
/ you would keep the events of last game in mind as you make fhis push here

You're not and she finds this suspicious

I dont know wjat the events of last game are so i really couldnt say if this is a reasonable expectation or not

These thoughts are all just... so basic and obvious. Scum might even not post them because they're so uninteresting and level zero/probably the first thing one would think of.

I know that Aris asked someone to help her understand what was happening but choosing to take the role of Chief Explainer is busywork scum can do to look helpful.

I swear if I were finding town aspects I would post them too... I just didn't find any so far. After I finish here I should do VPB, if he was going at any of the same stuff I am then I should rethink how I viewed his line of play at the start.

pedit: hi pedits!

[Shuichi Saihara]

@fire give my thunder back

ignore than my post was not actually that thunderous

[Shuichi Saihara]

Hard game is hard >.>

I already hate myself for asking this, but what is with the excess of <.< faces from you?

[Shuichi Saihara]

another reason is that vp was calling for more skitter votes and for a skitter wagon for like the whole early game. and then when he gets what he wants and skitter's response to pressure is, as he says, "not great", suddenly he backs off with the reasoning that there were too many people supporting the elim

like i don't think its valid at all to think that someone can't be scum in a 9p when they are a mostly consensus scumread

Good point.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Oh dear, i'm doing this all wrong apparently >.<

Anyways can we talk about how scummy vpb is being and how stilted he sounds ^

Stilted?

You're asking the wrong questions, commenting on things that are kinda irrelevant, and your read on me is bad and way too strong for the reasoning you're giving, and you're reacting kinda off to me/people pointing that out

Pedit what do u mean by 'setup' in this context?

(Fun fact! My flight got delayed by a full 4 hours!)

I want to remember to see how true this was.

Pedit what do u mean by 'setup' in this context?

9p packed with good town.

Who are the people "pointing it out" besides you?

Also, my questions are on fucking point. As opposed to you, who provided zero commentary on the main event of the game so far (ari/prism)Prism, and just omgused me on basically the same thing I called you out about.

(Sorry bout your flight though, that sucks)

- fire/ceph have both said similar things as me, i dont believe you've responded to anything either has said

- i actually have made several posts on the main event of the game, including a long one literally on the bottom of the previous page explaining my thoughts.

Have your thoughts on ari/prism developed beyond this?

I am team Ari in this dispute.

I would actually argue that you've made less meaningul commentary than me on the main event of the game, so kinda galling that you come scumreading me for things that you're doing to a bigger extreme yourself

Now that fire has returned to the fore the idea that this post could be theater, I cannot unsee it. The fact that VP ignored those posts from fire/me to keep responding to skitter suggests an intentional focus. I had an issue with the strength of that skitter push at the time as it felt unnatural, and I've been fobbed off with some excuses by now but I'm no longer certain I believe them.

assuming the words "dats" and "like" are supposed to be switched around, (1) why do you choose this to say now? (2) why?

Usually in the beginning of games i try to say whatever comes to mind, however slight - doing so tends to generate content, which is nice early on

(You know this ...)

For your second question - i was questioning why my scumpings were 'bad and wrong', i'm not sure what you're objecting to

It is somewhat disturbing to me to consider that this has been skitter saying whatever comes to mind at this point. It does explain the super basic thoughts I tagged earlier, but if all her posts to this point have been pretty off the cuff and not holding anything back, why are they so insubstantial (e.g. "I don't like dats post"... ok why? Sounds like nothing is being withheld, so did the thoughts even exist?)

Suspending this for a moment because STD is on a work call with a person with a piercing voice and I can't hear myself think.

[Shuichi Saihara]

-- i think if i'm pushing *him* i keep it going quite a while longer

It wasn't working, so I don't see why.

[Shuichi Saihara]

If you are town and want me to give scum-dats the time of day as a concept, I need more.

[Shuichi Saihara]

How are you reading him?

besides +partner with you, i am not

Then i suggest that you endeavor to form a read on him, his iso is p empty and easy to read ... ^

And fwiw i am formally scumreading now too ...

I don't think I've ever seen someone use the phrase "formally scumreading" before and the most likely brain-corner I can see it coming from is a hyperawareness of one's own trajectory.

- i object to the characterization of my push on you as a 'complaint about an early game wagon on me'

Yeah... so do I.

@vpb: you commented on my apparent lack of commentary on ari/prism in 309, and this is what you argued:

Also, my questions are on fucking point. As opposed to you, who provided zero commentary on the main event of the game so far (ari/prism)Prism, and just omgused me on basically the same thing I called you out about.

And in 409 you literally quote two differnet posts where i discuss it prior to that point, so that is not an accurate claim in the slightest. You're also ignoring posts: 169, 211, 214, 240, 268, all of which contain commentary on their argument, and quite lot of which is before prism poked me.

You arguing that i have no commentary on the argument is somewhere on the sliding scale of ignorance, willful ignorance, and outright misrepresenration, and i'm leaning towards the latter given the tone/vibe of 409.

Also after me pointing out that i actually do have content on this topic, and that your original claim is incorrect, you changed your argument to me not having content about it *until prism poked me about it*, which is not what you were originally dinging me for, i will note as well. I guess you think this is an easier argument for you to win tho

You keep bringing this up, why?

Me, ceph, and fire all made similar criticisms of your posts so far. You're only scumreading me for it, however. To me, rhat implies that your read on me isnt real, because if you were inherently concerned with my line of questioning, you would be asking fire/ceph about *their* line of questio ning as well, bur you're not. You're all but ignoring their pushes on you

@vpb: sooooooo had you even read my posts when you said that i had no commentary on the ari/prism thing?

Also now that you've read them, you're moving the goalposts from: zero commentary on the argument to none until prism prodded me to my posts about the argument were weak ...

Also 240 is a direct response to 238, where prism questioned how i was reading her based on the ari/prism argument ...

Worthy of checking VPB's posts to assess accuracy but I recall agreeing with these at the time so they're likely valid. Not sure whether it was here or somewhere else, but I had a moving-goalposts issue with VPB too, and I typically don't excel at noticing things like that.

I feel like Skitter is probably logically correct in some way but is still scum but idk if that's ridiculous of me or not

It is ridiculous of you, yes

This post has already been lambasted appropriately, but I'm choosing to note again that it is challenging to see it as real. Refuge in logic is a scum tactic everyone learns about on their first day playing mafia.

I feel like Skitter is probably logically correct in some way but is still scum but idk if that's ridiculous of me or not

It is ridiculous of you, yes

does this imply that skitter is claiming she cannot be logically correct as scum? wild

Why is this what you're popping in to comment on >.>
And i dont think that's what i'm implying?
Pedit yes plz do, in particular 409 which i feel is incredibly misreppy

Dats ... >.>
That post has so many issues with it i dont even know where to begin

I noticed these two shifty-eye faces around Datisi and it made me wonder if they're emblematic of guilt over pushing Datisi. Could be town guilt from not wanting to doubt your friend, perhaps. There's obviously a preexisting relationship here. This is basic of me, but nonetheless. If I could use the search function on this, I would.

[Shuichi Saihara]

My other idea is just burn the skitter and honestly good chance it works good but god help us all if it doesn't and that approach would probably tilt her off the end of the earth.

I mean it probably wont *tilt* me but i'll make it my mission before i go to get all of u to strongly consider vpb and dats afterwards

I am reading this iso and I barely know why you suspect Datisi so much. You've been on it for literally half the game, but whatever the concern is has been at least pretty muted up until this point. Probably this is also a failure of mine to investigate thoroughly enough, but surely it must merit some volume by now.

I would also like to note that i am still somewhat sus of dwlee

And upon reflection, i'm less confident in town-ari than i was ro begin with

Pedit i actually think i would egg it on as tvt as scum. Like pick a side and just make it a bigger thing
Kinda weird how you and ari are coming to opposite conclusions about what i would do but still both scumread me

Call it gut but I really don't think VP Baltar is scum

Fwiw i am probably getting over this read

I don't understand why none of this comes with reasons.

[Shuichi Saihara]

I do like that skitter has not given in and pushed Enchant for survival.

[Shuichi Saihara]

He feels so off tho >.>

But fine

VOTE: dwlee

That's the third vote btw ^

On the other hand, this could have done the trick if I'm wrong about Dwlee, especially with Enchant in the game.

[Shuichi Saihara]

There's a lot of hedging here. 32 doesn't do anything besides try to look town -- as I write this, I'm thinking the entire concept of "I want to townread X, but I won't" is scummy, which is an original thing that's coming up for me right now; it looks like a town thought process but avoids committing to any read. 196 calls the conflict TvT without really calling it TvT ("I don't really have thoughts, except here are my thoughts"). "I'm not sure that damning" reads similarly, and "I don't think" would have served just as nicely in that slot meaning-wise.

You can call it hedging sure, but that's just how i normally talk/type

Possibly true. And you'd think I'd be sympathetic as I'm so frequently guilty of this myself. I don't remember seeing as much of it in Radio Buzz, which is as close as I have to a model.

If you are town and want me to give scum-dats the time of day as a concept, I need more.

If you want to give me like 4 hours, sure

Part lf it tho is that i dont think town-dats doubles down on me here ^

Pedit dats why are u even scumreadinf me exactly? Your whole trajectory on me rhis game is waffling in accordance with how big the game on me is

I'm in no hurry. There are several more players I want to investigate before I decide who I want to elim today, and I'm likely only going to do 0 or 1 more today.

These thoughts are all just... so basic and obvious. Scum might even not post them because they're so uninteresting and level zero/probably the first thing one would think of.

I would also like to point out that i repeatedly said at the time that i didnt really have thoughts, but was asked to produce some anyways

Dinging me for having unsatisfactory thoughts when i said that i didnt have any is just kinda ....

Ok dats:
- he's exuding a vibe of 'i hate this game' which i think strongly correlates with scum-him, ari agrees that he has this vibe but was telling me it isnt scum-indicative so i backed off. I still strongly think this is +scum for him
- his reads are incidental and dont make sense, ex: prism read, ex: read on me
-- read on me has been waffle-y and he keeps changing it, often in accordance with how big my wagon is / how easy i am to push
-- i dont think he sincerely scumreads me here. His read basically boils down to 'i'm scumreading him for nonsense' *while acknowledging* that he thinks town-me has often done that before
-- even if that is his read on me, i dont think town-him chooses to push me for that reason on day1, whereas scum-him will absolutely take advantage of the existing wagon
- in general the rest of his reads are incidental and weak (if they exist at all) ... his dwlee read is that he doesnt think scum-dwlee pushes enchant today which is just ???? why is that even remotely town indicative ... ???

I would like people to look into this more please ^

Harrumph. Expecting me to do the work!

- he's exuding a vibe of 'i hate this game' which i think strongly correlates with scum-him, ari agrees that he has this vibe but was telling me it isnt scum-indicative so i backed off. I still strongly think this is +scum for him

Also dats was scumreading me *for thinking he had this vibe*, but when it was objectively noted that he has this vibe (i.e. i'm not just making it up), he's still scumreading me for accusing him of this, which doesnt make sense

i have no clue why you're saying i'm having existential dread when i was interrogating prism about her read on me

because (1) do you disagree that i was wrong about her push on me being weird and lawyery? she agreed with that (2) I ALWAYS INTERROGATE PEOPLE WHEN I FEEL THEIR READ ON ME IS SHIT

like you scumread me for this in one scumgame and then you scumread me for it in a towngame and it's like FAM that's just how i solve so what's the issue

what's the existential dread here

Ur issue earlier was me saying that you had any existential dread to begin with

It later changed to 'fine i may have existential dread but i dont like you saying it'

And i'm saying you:
- didnt explain why its scummy for me to think that
- should have reevaluated between point 1 and point 2 upon receiving the information that you are in fact giving off that vibe (i.e. and consider hiw that might affect my read on you) but instead you just jumped to 'well you're scummy for thinking that anyways', which is partly why i think you're manufacturing this read, because *in context* it makes sense for me to think this about your play, but you're skipping over the checkpoint of 'does this make sense' to continue to find reasons to scumread me

Uh oh, this feels important but I'm getting into eye-glaze 1v1 mode.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Uh ceph, you're kinda painting my posts in (what i feel to be) a needlessly uncharitabe light, multiple times in these wallposts, some examples including:

I make >.>'s all the time as both alignments in all sorts of contexts, and i have a long history of doing so across multiple games. Picking two out of the multiple i've made in this game to ascribe guilt is ?

That instance just stood out to me. You're right that there are plenty more and I have done no research to see whether you do that in every game. I'm just posting my thoughts as I have them right now. I'm not trying to arrive at any particular conclusion. Why did you end this post with a question mark instead of just calling me scum when that is clearly what you want to say?

And you may not like that i havent elaborated upon my reasons for my reads, but failing to do so is not inherently scum-indicative, and i believe you ought to know that ...
'Formally scumread' also a phrase i believe i have said multiple times in a variery of games, basically just to indicate the read is 'official' now

I'm mot sure there's anything you particularly want me to respond to tho

You did say at the start of the game (and I'd say this is still early game) that you just post whatever pops into your head, or something similar to this. That makes me think that it would be reasonable to expect reasons from you. I'm aware that some players just throw reads out sometimes; I have not previously found you to be that type of person.

There is nothing I particularly want a response to. I'm generally uninterested in defenses unless they provide new information or clarify something I genuinely misunderstood.

[Shuichi Saihara]

He feels so off tho >.>

But fine

VOTE: dwlee

That's the third vote btw ^

On the other hand, this could have done the trick if I'm wrong about Dwlee, especially with Enchant in the game.

No? I would have unvoted if it reached e1 with enchant in the game. And if i were trying to hasten the wagon i wouldnt havr counted the votes or announced the e1 ...

What exactly are you trying to imply here?

You could hardly guarantee you would see the thread before enchant, but sure, whatever.

I was implying that my townpoint for not going for enchant should be withdrawn as you were going after something as plausible, perhaps more plausible, to go through.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Harrumph. Expecting me to do the work!

Uh, yeah actually. I dont think that's an unreasonable request at all, to expect you to read the posts where i explain my dats read immediately after you complain i havent explained my dats read

And hey a cursory cntrl-f of the firsf page of my iso in radio buzz guves 18 >.>'s so

I mean that you're expecting me to go through Datisi's iso for the receipts. And that's fine, it's just not going to be high on my priority list.

[Shuichi Saihara]

I don't understand why Enchant is on E-1 and that troubles me.

[Shuichi Saihara]

VOTE: enchant???

??? is right!

[Shuichi Saihara]

she probably will hate winning this way as scum more than I will hate losing to her as town.

so I think I'm fine with this outcome.

VOTE: Enchant

I find this first sentence underwhelming.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Either way, i am 1-Shot Bunyip.

Don't ask why i am Bunyip, seems like mod considers this normal role. Or it's normal role. Do i care?

(I can once target someone and discover if they are Vanilla or Not, if vanilla, i protect them from kills).

That's reason why i tended to believe claims tbh, false positives.

I... sort of buy that this game could have a role that interacts with vanilla-ness. I suspect this is thus either real or a mod-provided fake.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Chipping in to say I don't believe that.

My role is completely standard and normal. I can't speak for Aristeia's but there's no weird flavoring attached. That role would iirc be called Simple Doctor

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bunyip

There's a difference between this and a simple doctor.

[Shuichi Saihara]

That seems to more or less guarantee this is in {real, trueclaiming scum, mod-provided fake}

Do we think this clicks well with Enchant's earlier apparent thought that the game has a vig?

[Shuichi Saihara]

I agree that Prism's day play has not felt sharp. I don't have much of a baseline for her save reputation, but my impression is that scum should be quivering in their boots with terror, and she has not been giving them any reason to do that so far.

What is your read on prism again?

Limbo. I think the mech stuff is a mild point against her and her play hasn't made a huge impression on me, but I find her posts especially difficult to read so I feel like I don't even know what is in her iso. Half of my reads atp are "I don't even remember what this person has posted" and I'm in the process of making an effort to fix that.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Suichi, do you think this post is indicative of your scumhunting? I read this and it reads like poking at things without actually coming to any kind of opinion on any of them. I know you said you're feeling at a loss for reads or whatever, but I'm just trying to understand what the intended outcome of a post like this is from your perspective. What were you aiming to achieve here?

Spoiler:

How are you reading him?

besides +partner with you, i am not

Then i suggest that you endeavor to form a read on him, his iso is p empty and easy to read ... ^

And fwiw i am formally scumreading now too ...

I don't think I've ever seen someone use the phrase "formally scumreading" before and the most likely brain-corner I can see it coming from is a hyperawareness of one's own trajectory.

- i object to the characterization of my push on you as a 'complaint about an early game wagon on me'

Yeah... so do I.

@vpb: you commented on my apparent lack of commentary on ari/prism in 309, and this is what you argued:

Also, my questions are on fucking point. As opposed to you, who provided zero commentary on the main event of the game so far (ari/prism)Prism, and just omgused me on basically the same thing I called you out about.

And in 409 you literally quote two differnet posts where i discuss it prior to that point, so that is not an accurate claim in the slightest. You're also ignoring posts: 169, 211, 214, 240, 268, all of which contain commentary on their argument, and quite lot of which is before prism poked me.

You arguing that i have no commentary on the argument is somewhere on the sliding scale of ignorance, willful ignorance, and outright misrepresenration, and i'm leaning towards the latter given the tone/vibe of 409.

Also after me pointing out that i actually do have content on this topic, and that your original claim is incorrect, you changed your argument to me not having content about it *until prism poked me about it*, which is not what you were originally dinging me for, i will note as well. I guess you think this is an easier argument for you to win tho

You keep bringing this up, why?

Me, ceph, and fire all made similar criticisms of your posts so far. You're only scumreading me for it, however. To me, rhat implies that your read on me isnt real, because if you were inherently concerned with my line of questioning, you would be asking fire/ceph about *their* line of questio ning as well, bur you're not. You're all but ignoring their pushes on you

@vpb: sooooooo had you even read my posts when you said that i had no commentary on the ari/prism thing?

Also now that you've read them, you're moving the goalposts from: zero commentary on the argument to none until prism prodded me to my posts about the argument were weak ...

Also 240 is a direct response to 238, where prism questioned how i was reading her based on the ari/prism argument ...

Worthy of checking VPB's posts to assess accuracy but I recall agreeing with these at the time so they're likely valid. Not sure whether it was here or somewhere else, but I had a moving-goalposts issue with VPB too, and I typically don't excel at noticing things like that.

I feel like Skitter is probably logically correct in some way but is still scum but idk if that's ridiculous of me or not

It is ridiculous of you, yes

This post has already been lambasted appropriately, but I'm choosing to note again that it is challenging to see it as real. Refuge in logic is a scum tactic everyone learns about on their first day playing mafia.

I feel like Skitter is probably logically correct in some way but is still scum but idk if that's ridiculous of me or not

It is ridiculous of you, yes

does this imply that skitter is claiming she cannot be logically correct as scum? wild

Why is this what you're popping in to comment on >.>
And i dont think that's what i'm implying?
Pedit yes plz do, in particular 409 which i feel is incredibly misreppy

Dats ... >.>
That post has so many issues with it i dont even know where to begin

I noticed these two shifty-eye faces around Datisi and it made me wonder if they're emblematic of guilt over pushing Datisi. Could be town guilt from not wanting to doubt your friend, perhaps. There's obviously a preexisting relationship here. This is basic of me, but nonetheless. If I could use the search function on this, I would.

That is me attempting to scumhunt, yes. In the end I came away with a lean-scum read.

I did an iso with no particular aim in mind and dumped my thoughts as I went. It is useful for me to do and I may as well show my process if I'm going to be doing it anyway.

[Shuichi Saihara]

For the mech stuff-

it looks like scum should be informed or have some hint about this interaction

, too. I see it as strange in either case.

?

If anyone has another explanation for the mailman existing, they might want to say so, unless they're something really powerful.

????? We literally have 3 PR claims Day 1, how many more do you want?

I think it's pretty normal for an uninformed scum ascetic to claim ascetic. If it's valid setup spec that Ari's role makes an ascetic claim obviously guilty, that's stupid setup design, and I want the setup to be not stupid.

Is a novice mailman really even reasonable to call a power role? And Enchant was not out when I made that post.

[Shuichi Saihara]

focused on tone

Seems like you aren't going to like my gameplay, like, at all then.

[Shuichi Saihara]

unaccompanied by a vote

I have no intention of voting for anyone right now as there is still work I want to get done first

[Shuichi Saihara]

I wish I were Cephrir so I could just talk shit to everyone instead of trying. This game is too hard.

[Shuichi Saihara]

im afraid to say that this sequence looks real and is also maybe the first time i've understood what prism was even saying because aristeia might show up to my house with a knife, a rope, a revolver, a lead pipe, a wrench, and a candlestick

[Shuichi Saihara]

I should've just stayed in bed.

Coming back to this thread was a shitty idea.

Shuichi I told you to yell at me if I came back tonight.

ah sorry i'm usually good about this

[Shuichi Saihara]

the fence is comfy

[Shuichi Saihara]

go to bed ari

[Shuichi Saihara]

i chuckled tho

[Shuichi Saihara]

Not gonna pull these posts, but the start of the game fire is just kind of there not really doing anything for a while.

Zero points for claiming ascetic. that's basic moves.

I could just pick this post instead idk I'm right about what I said

its the fact that you said it and the example you gave doesn't support it. that makes me think you just pulled up his iso and grabbed a post that you thought supported your argument to add to your evidence pile. but if it was a genuine read then there was some actual post out there that informed that read, and you would have found that one instead

Not planning to relitigate this whole Dwlee thing, but I think this shows layered thought.

vp this seems like a weird thing to pick on ngl

Nah. You catch scum D1 in a game like this by looking for people acting awkward. Especially in a game with lots of killers like this, scum will have a hard time finding a rhythm immediately. They will misread intentions and try to act natural. There is a whole artiface to D1 as scum where you need to get in the flow.

well if thats the case, then i think you're the one who feels the most awkward and having a hard time finding a rhythm

I don't really enjoy mindmelding as a tell but I was thinking the same thing. I wonder whether this "awkward" theme has made it to VP's present.

Since I already got to the end of reading fire's iso and landed on probably town, and thinking about what people have said about me being uncharitable towards skitter, I wonder whether this exercise is just exposing gut-reads I wasn't ready to admit I had. But uh, please enjoy the Shuichi-flavored candy coating I've provided for them, nonetheless.

that reminds me, i think dwlee was talking about a datisi/vp team?

surely in that case datisi is excited and stays up past his bedtime to knock out some theatre in the early thread first

same goes for datisi/ari probably

I didn't especially agree with this, but it's thoughtful.

Novice mailman is a pretty strange role no doubt. Why is a mailman so good it needs to be nerfed?

it seems to me like a lot of closed setups have at least one role that on some level is "the mods messing with players who try to setup spec"

You have examples that come to mind for you?

dwlee was a backup vig in a game with no vig

idk i feel like it happens a lot, mods don't like people being able to solve their setups so they mess with expectations

This is an avenue that hasn't been brought up a lot, but it seems to me like scum with not-prism should be happy to hop on this mech thing. Did anyone really do that? One could argue skitter did the opposite to look town, but she's retread the ground enough times that I think she probably just earnestly does not believe the mech stuff is a slam dunk even if she's scum.

my only real townreads are ari and shuichi if that wasn't already clear

I was surprised to see anyone townreading me highly at this point. I would be a pretty good choice for a pocket target for a scum fire. I am pocketable and all the more so by his archetype of player. Remind me to bring up something else around this point later.

I can acknowledge that there might be elements of personality reading setting me askew this game. Trying to maintain a healthy sphere of paranoia.

I don't love that basically the entire player list supports a skitter lim

i can't remember if anyone talked about this but i think it's bad for several reasons

one is that this is a 9p, its not like 2 scum are gonna have a large social influence on the game if one of them is being run up. the 1 partner could be one of the people who is like "yeah skitter kinda scummy" but not really pushing there, or it could be they already decided skitter is going down and are bussing, or it could be enchant who hasn't really given any reads

another reason is that vp was calling for more skitter votes and for a skitter wagon for like the whole early game. and then when he gets what he wants and skitter's response to pressure is, as he says, "not great", suddenly he backs off with the reasoning that there were too many people supporting the elim

like i don't think its valid at all to think that someone can't be scum in a 9p when they are a mostly consensus scumread

and vp's progression on skitter kinda makes me think that the team is just vp/skitt and they were like haha let's make an early push for pressure and towncred bc skitter is a strong player who can handle it and won't get limmed, oh oops, people actually agreed, ahhh, what now, find somewhere else to push

and skitter voting datisi when that seemed to be the likely push but then now switching to dwlee is just... kinda scummy

so i guess what im saying is

VOTE: skitter

let's bring this one back

He said it first, but I do like that his attention happened to turn to skitter at roughly the same time I started thinking about her and I don't think anything clearly prompted that. It could be a coincidence but yeah.

I really agree with the point that 2 scum can only do so much to influence a game state, as well. I think this is something I see people worrying about an unreasonable amount in general, but it's especially true here, and since there are only 2, their awareness of moving in lockstep is likely to be higher.

i also don't really think that the reasons you are casing dats are very scummy things in this specific game, skitter. like, weak reads, self-doubt, even the existential dread. im feeling most of those things as well so i don't really see it as that scummy. and its not like he's going over the top in playing it up, if he were i could totally see how that's scummy behavior, but i don't feel an overabundance of woe is me.

i think it would be believable that he would imitate those vibes as scum, but it's kind of a risky play unless he really sells it hard and i don't think he is, so the alternative would be to just project more confidence. there's been times when he has (someone said "bluster-y"?) but its always felt pretty thin and transparent, and his honest thoughts shine through pretty easily and quickly. compare to when he pushed on fua in the large, that felt blustery but he went like all in on it and really played it up

so the being kind of in the middle here just reads more as honest to me but trying at times to be good strong town player even when he doesn't fully believe in his own reads

my only real townreads are ari and shuichi if that wasn't already clear

Did you explain your shuichi townread?

Link is fine if so

no idea how much ive explained it if at all. but its mostly that he's been thinking good thoughts imo and mostly things i agree with, and when i went through looking for potentially scummy positioning plays and found some from almost everyone, him and ari were the two (and enchant, I think, but that hardly counts) that i didn't find anything for. there were some moments of paranoia (im getting flashbacks to when me+DV were very similar reads in the recent large and then after a while i got paranoid of that but eventually came back around), but then also right when i showed up with a skitter vote he was doing a dive on skitter and found her scummy, and we posted at like the same time

so the multiple instances of being on the same track makes me think town, and nothing makes me think scum. he's also not making any real active attempts to pocket me, mostly keeping his distance, the directional similarity feels pretty natural. again, similar vibes to the situation with DV, who did end up being town

I loosely followed the game fire is talking about and so can see this thought process as organic.

Where did I say that's off the table?

you didn't (and that's not what I said), but i didn't see you explicitly bring it up either, and i think that would have been your natural town response to my 1214 if your stated reads are honest

i think a town vp would be partner reading me with prism here. he has everyone as a townread except me, prism, shuichi, and im apparently pocketing shuichi. i haven't really engaged with prism much or talked about her, and when he poked about it i gave a pretty noncommittal answer. but he let that go, which i found strange

maybe he hasn't commented on that explicitly bc he knows prism would object to that idea

To build on this a little.

Refer back to 640 (quoted above) with me for a moment. Baltar dug up post 133, which to me, looks like a post he could have made if he was thinking about fire & Prism as a team. I lost the thread of what he's been saying more recently for a minute and was prepared to come say "hey, look, a golden thread through VP's trajectory," but that's in fact the opposite of what he's saying now. (I know this part just makes me sound stupid but I'm leaving it in)

Sure, trying to solve the game all at once isn't every player's style (and it isn't mine either) but if you allegedly think you have all the scum in a 3 player big net idk it feels like it would make sense to think about pairing them to me. 1214 seemed to me equivalent to fire shouting "I'm not comfortable talking about prism!" which would definitely get my attention if I suspected both him and prism.

And as fire said, if fire is pocketing me that implies I'm town (even though baltar thinks i'm scum ??) which should leave him only one solve.

--

If I were to make a point against fire, I might say that he has simply not done that much. Outside of some isolated more effortful posts, VP does have a point about just wanting to townread players who are chill-vibing. ANd that's absolutely something I'm susceptible to.

[Shuichi Saihara]

even though dwlee is the person i'm next most interested in it looks like i should skip to prism & baltar. idk dwlee probably won't take as long so we'll see.

[Shuichi Saihara]

or i could stop trying to plaster shuichi on everything and admit that deep down i've been wanting to vote baltar since like page 2 lol

[Shuichi Saihara]

I am against dwlee99 lim.

Based
UNVOTE: Enchant

dwlee is lowkey openwolfing and maybe they're doing it as a bit but it's odd that no one cares

[Shuichi Saihara]

Prism if your plan is to die can we get some of this amazing scumhunting I'm told you're capable of first?

[Shuichi Saihara]

I may have been quote unquote uncharitable before but skitter's obstinateness here looks town to me.

[Shuichi Saihara]

What if I just threw all Prism's actual content out the window since I'm going to struggle to parse it anyway and tried to read her based only on the ATE

[Shuichi Saihara]

Prism if your plan is to die can we get some of this amazing scumhunting I'm told you're capable of first?

1. I am a scum specialist not a town specialist
2. I am trying, I have reread the game 2-3x, fought Aristeia in the street, fought skitter in the street. If you believe I wasn't trying vote me. Today I have not been as eager to trudge through again but fuck it I might if I feel like it.

Then I hope you're not scum because this would be a bit depressing otherwise

[Shuichi Saihara]

im gonna get rid of the quote stripes. i think it's making my posts boring since im not getting engaged on them much

ok so i cant analyze baltar and be genuine without going here, so im in a neighborhood with datisi and baltar



while im going there. datisi has been a paranoia machine in there and posted an absolute fuckton. this is why im townreading datisi for seemingly no reason.
the two of them have been sorting each other but at this point i think it's just a pocket attempt and i think baltar would have managed to put more town seeming thoughts in there if he had any town thoughts. it just seems like posting just to post to me. and i don't really believe his read prog on datisi because like it's been allegedly town for a million years yet we still keep throwing in some pArAnOiA cUrVeBaLls that i perceive as not real on account of his allegedly being town on datisi for more than half the volume of the hood

i think ive been stopping myself from feeling this read because i wanted the hood to stay hidden.

we all remember baltar's over the top skitter push at the start of the game so i won't bombard you with quotes. the certainty level was goofy and i thought it was goofy at the time. im calling this phenomenon fake bravado

212 is a different flavor of fake bravado. imo mostly scum do this I LAUGH IN THE FACE OF DANGER HA HA HA thing when there is no actual danger

217 claims that a joke post from him was actually a reaction test and that's pretty dumb. possible motive in the revisionism is to protect dwlee from one of the first serious attacks of the game in a way by backing up the idea that 27 was a content post that contained thoughts

im now reading his discussion of "awkwardness" again (255 for a shortcut) and failing to square that with his fire read in the present. awkwardness is allegedly the main way to catch scum d1 but fire hasn't been awkward

229 is another big stretch to attack skitter. i think he genuinely wanted to have a skitter elim happen on page 9 and has had to pretend this was town motivated somehow later

234 is trying so fucking hard to find reasons to scumread skitter that basically don't exist

i first picked on the bravado in 216 and got ignored. then in 263 i am crumbing baltar to look at the neighborhood where i am again trying to get an answer. at this point he admits in the hood that he is indeed faking the read strength

302 is interesting to me because baltar has already addressed fire's concern about dwlee, so he absolutely already knows that is the reason for fire's vote and this post exists only to throw shade on it and is not a good faith question

307 / 309 - i wonder if 307 actually does mean what it says and 309 was a cover up. maybe he knows something about the setup that makes it hard to hide. perhaps he's sweating because he's scum in a neighborhood, which does indeed make it harder to hide

406 is just digging for more reasons to elim skitter that don't exist. to me how this post sounds is "it's early game, so yeah, my reasons for pushing you [editor's note: really hard] were dogshit! i can't believe you would suspect me for having dogshit reasons!" this doesn't make sense because he's expecting skitter to have non-dogshit reasons while insisting he is allowed to have those

also hey! see how the admission i got in the hood that this bravado was fake still hasn't appeared in the thread? maybe that's because this is a push with an agenda and the thing said in the hood was purely to appease me. ugh fine i guess it finally makes it to the thread in 421 damn

as i already said in 491, the whole line of reasoning about skitter not mentioning whatever the fuck it was that she mentioned was a shitpush. if he had backed off after she completely obliterated the point i'd say ok cool you just didn't do your research i do that all the time
but instead 488 is what occurs, where baltar moves the goalposts by pulling up skitter's posts that prove his initial point wrong and takes them down with such eloquent arguments as "you said "probably" so this post doesn't count as existing"
and 501 is mostly just funny

418 has an absurd premise that it's weird for skitter to want him to answer my/fire's questions and harp on it
people like questions to get answered and tend to think there's a reason if they go unanswered this isn't news

465 "but what about skitter she did it worse!" is an interesting end to a post that begins with an admission of bad faith

544 characterizing skitter's entire line of play as omgus is nonsense. just reads like an attempt to discourage anyone from listening to her. he's still pushing this in 612 and notably still thinks i can be brought onside here

btw if i ever said these two could be partners, withdrawn. i doubt it.

691 has been brought up before but im trying to be somewhat comprehensive here. trash reason to attack fire. this has been a theme.

by the same token re: comprehensiveness, 712 still makes little sense from a town mindset. if skitter is scum she has only one partner (if you're mathing her as town on the other hand, ...)

777 to me is a reversal of style. earlier, baltar indicated that his strategy is to make pushes he's not completely sure about and see what falls out, like he did with skitter. yet this isn't the post of a player with that style. if you don't have a confident scumread, why not try to find one like you were earlier
think this was just playing into the town's general sentiment of feeling lost

How do you make a post like 1171 while STILL TO DATE as in literally today april 19, acting paranoid of datisi in the hood?

maybe this isn't a scum point but i'm still mad about 1182 for being mean and making me feel bad. kinda discredits my entire existence by implying i'm a worthless player but i know that's mainly the being frustrated by it talking

now the other reason i wanted to talk about the hood at all. just a few hours before posting his recent readlist, baltar asks me in the hood if fire might be pocketing me. and i even fall for this, i think i mentioned it in my fire wall. but allegedly, prism/fire/me is his entire scum pool at this point,

and a relevant aside here, hood comments from him indicate that the readlist in 1200 is stronger than it looks and he allegedly feels very confident all the scum are in the bottom 3,

so it seems strange to come from a perspective of assuming i am town. i think the purpose of this was to plant seeds to try to stop this budding alliance of sorts to prevent me from working to keep fire around. tbh if prism isn't scum then 1501 is a similar tack

1216 - "hey remember how i basically saved your life? you should townread me for that!"

i know it's not popular now but i actually agree with fire's take that vp should be trying to pair him with prism and it was odd that there wasn't more of a reaction to fire refusing to read prism. i feel like i mentioned this already.

im not gonna vote until i finish with my persons of interest but i doubt i will end up voting somewhere else.

[Shuichi Saihara]

i dont generally believe in the "every neighborhood must contain scum" thing. it's lazy and players should be read based on their content

[Shuichi Saihara]

This is wild. We agreed to keep the hood quiet D1 and suichi out here making unilateral moves to out it.

I am not going to read this wall in detail RN, but I don't love this development

like you weren't just threatening to out it yourself... you know datisi can see that right

[Shuichi Saihara]

he's still pushing this in 612 and notably still thinks i can be brought onside here

I mean, it worked ...
Pedit it could be, sure. But until/unless i have a reason to think otherwise i'm gonnna stick with that

Also ur point about vpb not solving in the hood is interesting, see the recent 19p game where he was town in the hood and was using that to solve p heavily there
(And hey i was scum in that hood!)

did i say he wasnt solving, i didnt think i said that. imo the main thrust has been sorting datisi tho. i could probably reread it to come down on whether there is also solving or not but i mainly just referenced particular events from it that have been living in my brain

[Shuichi Saihara]

ok so there is some solving from him here especially at the start. i guess none of it has jumped out at me as like, wow, that made me feel anything... so that's where i get the idea that the posts are just there to be there
imo as it goes on the solving decreases and focusing on dats increases. & the paranoia posts just pop up sometimes... i think that's performative because ive seen enough to feel pretty good about dats for good

some pointless banter that's not related to the game

some responses to me or dats

ooh i forgot about the time he rolefished dats that was fun

[Shuichi Saihara]

I think it was a good idea at the start so the game could develop organically. Hoods are distracting and that lets scum hide especially if it were all town.

I probably should have figured my actual wcumhunting would get ignored like usual but I thought that one was pretty good :c

[Shuichi Saihara]

Thank u

I thrive on ur approval

[Shuichi Saihara]

I didnt want to hold in points that were hugging me while making my case. Simple enough

And valyar had been threatening to out it if I came too hard at him so this would have been the result anyway...

[Shuichi Saihara]

Yes I am chilling here lurking and it took me 7 minutes to write that post

[Shuichi Saihara]

if shuichi was widely townread over you and datisi, i could potentially be paranoid of him going for a play where he outs the hood to chain lim you and datisi. but i don't think thats how it goes down, p sure more he's higher in most people's poe than datisi is. so it just seems like a losing play for him as scum

This is a micro game. How many mislims you think scum need to win this?

do you think Prism is Mafia?

My vote is there, yeah?

I can speed this up a little ari is going to point out that you did not answer the question

[Shuichi Saihara]

Dwlee or prism probably but I havent gotten to them yet and I dont like to preflip

[Shuichi Saihara]

I dont have one I just dont see a lot of viable options for partbers

[Shuichi Saihara]

Sick gotcha bro

[Shuichi Saihara]

Gonna go do literally anything besides read the next vitriol laden post

[Shuichi Saihara]

One day I'm going to run a setup with 12 town neighbors and watch the greatest minds of mafiascum shred themselves for no reason

[Shuichi Saihara]

Maybe it's your avatar - maybe its because you are tryharding and prism tends to make her partner tryhard so far outside their normal townrange it looks distorted.

Yes i am assuming prism is mafia and I shouldn't preflip but I am an idiot.

I'm tryharding bc this is my tryhard account!

[Shuichi Saihara]

Trying hard is exhausting tho so even though I need to do more isos today to finish by eod... I might just get high instead

[Shuichi Saihara]

i know you're joking datisi but i hate you a little for posting that

[Shuichi Saihara]

also if Prism flips mafia and I get shot at night just make sure Cephrir doesn't endgame

love you too babe

[Shuichi Saihara]

Skitter when I say I am fine with being flipped and I'm town and I mean it.

I usually am at e-1 and have lost all patience with the town.

And I will give them a time to say things and then self-hammer.

and I will follow through with Self Hammer.

Saying you are ok with being flipped when there are no votes on you is just performative defensive AtE.

this is one of the first points against prism that has resonated with me, fwiw. at least wrt 699 and 701

i do think the mech makes things different and could account for the faster throw-hands-up response, but still, it's something

maybe i will just use this as shorthand for my prism read. she is playing a poor and emotional game regardless of alignment but the idea of trying to play ATE matching games seems like a reasonable way to have something without having everything.

i am obviously not going to finish the stuff i wanted to today and i don't really care that much.

[Shuichi Saihara]

are you going to vote or just do wolfy popins ?

wolfy popins

[Shuichi Saihara]

wolfy poppins

[Shuichi Saihara]

btw you should read ceph's iso

it's full of prism shade but dude never votes for prism and actually wrote a giant VPB case out it's lit

is it full of prism shade i feel like i have mostly ignored her bc she is too smart for me to understand

[Shuichi Saihara]

if literally everyone wants to line up lims on me you might as well not make me sit through the intervening days!

[Shuichi Saihara]

would be funny if it is prism/shuichi and the two points from 772 that i said "my heart's not in this one" were the two that were right

you can always vote for prism

you don't actually get credit for a right reads if you don't vote them out.

careful, the mod might hear you!

[Shuichi Saihara]

Dwlee's posting on the last two/three pages has been good imo. Thanks for putting in the effort.

Skitter they have the votes to flip me if needed+as corny as it is (scum they won't do it!!!!) I can self at deadline to avoid a no elim.

sick reflective stepback

[Shuichi Saihara]

VOTE: baltar since dwlee has caught on to my evil plan to never vote anyone!

[Shuichi Saihara]

i think you are interpreting my comments about not understanding prism's posts as shade somehow but what i mean is i literally don't understand the order she puts words in

[Shuichi Saihara]

i see some merit in her arguments that she would play better if she were scum, some of the uninteresting meta stuff seems at least believable and the emotion is obviously real

but i know very well that scum can have real emotions and i haven't liked how much time she spends on defending herself and drinking glue instead of scumhunting

probably my third pick after baltar and dwlee

[Shuichi Saihara]

oh also i guess her reads have seemed to move around a lot and i haven't understood why but that could be my fault i guess

[Shuichi Saihara]

VP/Prism and Prism/Me doesn't make any sense so I'm surprised you'd say Prism is your third pick when your first is Baltar

im not preflipping but i'll let you know if i agree about those pairs not making sense when i have a flip

[Shuichi Saihara]

her emotional appeals are +++ scum indicative

it literally makes no sense for town to be expressing massive fustration if she was fine with being flipped back at post 699.

yeah that's true. do you put it past her to be deliberately manipulative as town?

[Shuichi Saihara]

im asking you a question about a player you know better than i do

[Shuichi Saihara]

i have issues with you being fooled by ate when you usually ignore that shit or scumread it

i do? *takes notes*

[Shuichi Saihara]

i understand that you're not having fun with this game but you don't need to take it out on me

[Shuichi Saihara]

if you want to fake a townie mindset - you need to actually do what town you would do - which is convince people baltar is scum and needs to eat rope

instead your primary goal is to defend Prism in weird convoluted ways.

Because you don't actually care about eliminating baltar - that's not your primary goal, your primary goal is to keep Prism alive into night so you can shoot me and then go cruise mode the rest of the game.

I already cased him and everyone patted me on the head and said that's nice cephrir and ignored it

When have you ever seen me kick and scream to get my favorite lim through. I've already done way more than I ever do

[Shuichi Saihara]

Next time someone asks me about prism I will just do a handstand and scream something incoherent about baltar

[Shuichi Saihara]

oh. well, okay

VOTE: enchant

[Shuichi Saihara]

:/

UNVOTE:
VOTE: baltar

[Shuichi Saihara]

Were you in a hood at the start of the game?

[Shuichi Saihara]

That's bizarre... idgi.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Probably it exist to screw PT Cop over, but give "Vanilla Depended" modifiers more freedom.

Are you sure you were told it was caused by someone else's ability? Because this makes sense to me in a way that this didn't before, if that element were removed.

[Shuichi Saihara]

Mod said Hood is "Not part of my role".

That's what I thought you might be saying. I have this as well.

[Shuichi Saihara]

i had a theory it was because there's a vanilla cop but it could just be prism's role i guess

[Shuichi Saihara]

do you say that because you scumread the people in the hood or because of setup specc

fine if it's the former but i will be greatly annoyed if it's the latter

it is nice to see one person with a passable opinion on this

[Shuichi Saihara]

I'm leaning toward a Suichi lim today. He seems like his engagement in the hood has gone down since prism lim started looking more likely, and I think it is not really a town mindset to come in today and think I'm scum after 1v1ing Prism yesterday.

Fire, of course, also sent a test balloon on that idea, but he has probably tried to do a bit more solving yesterday than suichi.

as was pointed out at the time it wasn't like you tried to 1v1 prism that was something that happened to you. don't try to take credit for it

im less engaged since prism flipped because everyone already preflipped me as scum with her. i expect to be elimed today, as i said in hood, and im ok with that

im also just busy rn

[Shuichi Saihara]

yea true ari said the only two viable partners for prism were VP and shuichi after seeing you 1v1 prism, she must not have had a town mindset

wait you even got me to say it was a 1v1 smh

reminder that it was not at all a 1v1. ari talked about this in better words than I did here: 1587 and 1590, explaining how you trying to frame it as a 1v1 has a clear motivation in a world where you are partners with prism

yeah this, thanks

[Shuichi Saihara]

also hey

why do i need to solve

my solve is baltar

there's no reason i should have to do anything else besides try to pair him with prism more carefully, which would require me to read prism's posts, which i don't want to do

[Shuichi Saihara]

you weren't already voting me? lol

[Shuichi Saihara]

anyway if Prism actually does flip mafia here and I get shot please force through Cephrir for me tommorrow.

yes this is why i'm expecting to die thank you captain obvious

[Shuichi Saihara]

If you're scum, stay mad buddy. Maybe we flip you today instead.

ah yes scum are usually mad about getting mislims

[Shuichi Saihara]

We haven't had any mislims this game.

did you already forget the context of your own post or

[Shuichi Saihara]

you weren't already voting me? lol

Do you think waiting for you to play the game and try to actually do some solving before just voting you in a micro is scum indicative?

ur scum so anything u do is scum indicative

[Shuichi Saihara]

i dont rly intend to produce any content so long as my imminent demise remains on the table

even if it didn't really

so feel free to get this over with

[Shuichi Saihara]

it seems pretty clear!!

[Shuichi Saihara]

i mean i was thinking lim me but that's fine too

[Shuichi Saihara]

imagine being so confident about your fire scumread that you're already flipping shuichi as scum

makes a lot of sense if u aren't someone who expects to need several mislims hmm

[Shuichi Saihara]

why are we killing ceph what did ceph do

Ceph spent much of yesterday calling both me and prism bad, but only actually advocating to kill one of us despite a very viable prism lim all day long.

i wish you would stop just straight up making up lies about me. decent scum should be able to twist the words i actually said better rather than inventing new ones

[Shuichi Saihara]

for those on the go: i did not spend much of yesterday calling prism bad

[Shuichi Saihara]

for those on the go: i did not spend much of yesterday calling prism bad

I am going from memory, so you could be right....but doesn't that make you look worse?

As I stated in the hood, I would love to have some actual interactions with you, but you seem to have your heels dug in/are quitting, and that isn't easy to work with.

I know for a fact you are wrong I'm scum, so who else are you looking at.

it very well might make me look worse but i still do not take kindly to being accused of things i literally didn't do

[Shuichi Saihara]

who else i'm looking at is no one, especially not fire since that is what you want me to say

[Shuichi Saihara]

As I stated in the hood, I would love to have some actual interactions with you, but you seem to have your heels dug in/are quitting, and that isn't easy to work with.

i haven't posted since you made this request and although you are right that i'm going to ignore it, at least let me do that before you go pre-flipping my response

[Shuichi Saihara]

every post this dude makes is full of implicit threats to do what he wants or else it's wild

there's not even an or else you can implement when you're already voting me, if i even cared about scum voting me

[Shuichi Saihara]

here's a fact

i don't care

[Shuichi Saihara]

That seems like bad play and possibly indicates that one of fire/suichi really did over commit to a Prism defense.

didn't defend her either... idk how you can be so confident im scum without reading any of my posts. kinda feels like you're just happy to push on what everyone else wants to give u

[Shuichi Saihara]

I just want cephrir dead pls

im glad we are on the same page

[Shuichi Saihara]

ceph, uh, why do you want to get flipped again?

just kinda not having fun i guess. i want to get out of games and take a break from mafia

[Shuichi Saihara]

That seems like bad play and possibly indicates that one of fire/suichi really did over commit to a Prism defense.

didn't defend her either... idk how you can be so confident im scum without reading any of my posts. kinda feels like you're just happy to push on what everyone else wants to give u

I'm still reading the game. I've tried to engage with you several times. Which of your posts would you like me to look at?

just don't enjoy having my actions misstated

you can attack what i actually did all u want & unless i gain a surge of motivation you'll probably succeed

[Shuichi Saihara]

vp is spending hood time preemptively explaining why he will be keeping datisi in the lim pool indefinitely btw

[Shuichi Saihara]

i will haunt anyone who ever votes for datisi

[Shuichi Saihara]

Has anyone ever told you you're kind of a jerk

[Shuichi Saihara]

Honestly surprised yall are getting this wrong but w/e

VOTE: Shuichi

Get me out of here

[Shuichi Saihara]

@enchant hurry up

[Shuichi Saihara]

i would not characterize it as "so much" i am just a relatively high amount of done

[Shuichi Saihara]

or if you prefer it's because i'm a mafia 7x vengeful and i want everyone to lose

[Shuichi Saihara]

muahaha