Mini 671 - Dwarf Fortress - Game Over!

[iLord]

/confirm.

[iLord]

I'm a big fan of roffmans.

Vote: Roffman

[iLord]

Ramus just seems overeager - that's a weak attack to be pushing.

[iLord]

The wagon of roffman's just a joke.

Tuberkulos's vote, however, was not.

We don't wagon randomly. We wait until scum screws up and then jump on him. "Hoping for a lucky hit" benefits the scum infinitely as opposed to discussion.

The day will start naturally - no need to force it. But when a player crosses the line from overeagerness to oppertunism, that's the time to jump.

Unvote, Vote Tuberkulos for blatant wagoning for the sake of wagoning.

[iLord]

I suppose "joke" is not the word I meant here.

What I mean is that Roffman and Ramus were just eager to start the day.

You were opertunistic to lynch a random townie.

Nice OMGUS by the way. Good to see your first line of defense is voting the person who voted you.

[iLord]

I've been gone for a bit - catching up. Yeah.

[iLord]

asdfasdf

@ iLord: Ok, so if I got this strait; According to you, I just wants a random lynch, even though I stated that I thought roffman's "eagerness" was a bit suspicious. As I see it, atleast I had a more reasonable basis (a hunch if you like) for my vote than both Ramus and Roffman.

Besides, if I wanted to lynch someone quick, I would stay with Roffman since he already has two votes and you none.

You want to lynch a random townie. Scum want to lynch anyone except for themselves.

You didn't explain how eagerness could be a scum tell. Ramus isn't voting and Roffman's vote was a joke.

The third point is WIFOM at it's finest.

Meantime, iLord votes Tuber for bandwagoning just for the sake of it despite the fact that Tuber says that he was trying to get discussion going. Also, the chances of us hitting scum the first day are very low. Therefore, I'd shoot for having as much discussion (read: chaos and pointing fingers) as possible the first day and avoid ending it too soon. This way we at least get plenty of information.

Tuber's word means little - scum are not going to admit that they are scum.

So, I think I will refrain from voting either right now since Tuber is at L-2 and I don't need an idiot to end the day early and iLord doesn't so much strike me as scummy as just offensive playing townie. Anyway, I'm just going to shoot for the fact that iLord is being overly eager and trying to get Tuber to cough up some evidence and that Tuber is also being overly eager, attempting to get discussion going with bandwagoning.

Also: Reborn, read the topic and find out for yourself.

Never vote just for the sake of getting discussion going. Vote because you think you found scum.

@iLord: from my point of view, roffman actually likes early bandwagons, based on his posts so far.

Exactly.

Tuber sees that Roffman wants to be voted, and sees the oppertunity as a easy bandwagon.

Oh hang on, Tuber is newbie. That really messes up my read on him. The scummy things he's done can also be passed off as newb town thus rendering them null.

Especially the OMGUS, that's classic newb town.

Ah, but the oppertunism is a very classic newb scum.

OMGUS is a neutral newb tell, in my opinion. Scum do it just as much as townies.

Also, what is your definition of a "bandwagon"?

That's an odd question.

A "bandwagon" is pretty loose.

"Banwagoning" means going along with everyone else. So, a "bandwagon" would mean a case full of bandwagoners.

[iLord]

So? It doesn't stop scum from doing something stupid and slipping up. The more we talk, the better chance we have of scum slipping up.

I agree with this. I believe Tuber has slipped up.

What are we arguing about?

Actually, no. If I vote, it's because I think I found a lead. Therefore, by voting on that lead, I might find more information and be able to pick up another lead or get closer to finding scum.

I was explaining my vote - Tuber tried to vote just "to get the discussion going."

[iLord]

iLord: So, do you think roffman was bandwagoning when he also voted for Timeater at the beginning? Based on your definition of a bandwagon, roffman was going along with me when he voted for Timeater, so would that be a bandwagon? Please explain.

Yes, it would be a bandwagon.

[iLord]

asdfasdfasf

Unvote, vote Tuber

Third vote, FTW!!!!!

Read the thread, stop joking around, and comment on the cases.

I haven't really bothered reading much of anything in this thread so far (hehe). Extropolating scum tells from stuff like 2nd person "bandwagoning" (lol what?) is beneath someone of my mighty stature. Has anyone bothered trying to play dwarf fortress yet? I think I might give it a try. Seems like Claus is the only person who has played it.

It's never too early to fiind scum tells.

If I wanted a fast lynch, I would let my vote stand on roffman since he was closer of being lynched than iLord...

That's WIFOM to it's finest.

Plus, you didn't neccessarily want a fast lynch - rather you wanted a random townie lynch.

So tell me why you voted roffman? Another joke?

Yes, it was.

Tyypically, we start the game off by random voting.

@Pesco: Wait, are you on Sally as well?

My thoughts on voting the first day;

At the very beginning of a game, there isn't much else to do but to vote and watch how others vote and react. People will vote eachother for none, random, legitimate and/or stupid resons etc.

These votes serve as a basis for analysises and questions. "Why did you vote him? Why so eager to vote as him?" etc. When some people have thrown out their first votes, people will start to discuss and analyze these actions. How people respond and so on. When the discussion is going on, people will start to change their votes since there will more to go on, hopefully.

Sometimes a lynch is reached just by random votes. This is not a good thing, but sometimes necessary. If no lynch is reached, we are still on sqaure one, with one town dead by day two. If a lynched is reached however, we are one or two men short, but atleast we are on sqaure two, with much more to analyze and discuss.

I would much rather see a lynch with legitimate reasons behind our votes, that's why I withdrew my first vote and also my current one.

Unvote

Good thoughts, but a few corrections.

First, we random vote.

Eventually, something does something scummy, and people jump on him.

This starts up the game.

We should almost never random lynch Day 1 on site with decent players like MafiaScum - there's always scummy actions if you look close enough. In other words, the random phase will always inevitably end without any player actively trying to end it.

Using ending the random phase as an excuse to vote is extremely scummy - I've seen many a scum do that.

Theory discussion has little place here, though.

We need to be discussing scumminess of players. Like Tuber.

[iLord]

You expect him to have reacted to an obvious random vote?

If you don't think the cases are strong, explain why.

[iLord]

asdfasdf

iLord: First, I want to say that in post 47, you said that roffman's "bandwagoning" wasn't a bandwagon, he was just eager to start the day. Then, in post 74, you said that it was a bandwagon. Please explain.

Eager to start the day doesn't mean it's not a bandwagon.

Also, the entire point of your argument seems to be that Tuberkulos was opportunistic to lynch a random townie, but to me, it seemed like any other random vote. He has also already explained that it was a random vote, but you're still pushing the case. Could you explain why (in detail) Tuberkulos's vote wasn't random?

I didn't vote him for any particular reason. He did however indeed want an early wagon. But as he said himself, the first day is often just a "bandwagon-day". Let's just hope for a lucky hit.

Lucky Hit =/= random vote.

Lucky Hit = Random Wagon = Bad for town.

Since you're so good at math !

Cyberbob, being the experienced player you are, shouldn't you have realized this? I think Tuber is a somewhat easy target and you're blatant aggression towards him is a scumtell. Roffman&Cyberbob could be a likely scumteam, considering in post 91 he manages to absolve Roffman, attack me, agree with Roffman, and attack Tuber, attack Mariyta. That just doesn't sit right with me.

Vote: Cyberbob

That's weak - there's perfectly legitimate arguments against Tuber.

And drawing scumteam conclusions before we have dead bodies is a recipe for disaster.

Oh, I just noticed Tim's trap.

It's meh.

I can see where he's coming from, but I personally don't see Roffman's comment as scummy, especially if he's a relatively new player. A lot of newish players tend to want to avoid conflicts as much as scum, and pointing our lurkers and people who aren't scum hunting is a easy way to post without fear of conflict.

But in this case, I believe Roffman has been commenting about the cases, so the point against him is void.

Do explain if I have misinterpretted your trap.

I know you are but what am I?

-------------------

CB vs. Tim personal attacks have gone out of hand. Just stop - CB don't respond to Tim's last post. It's not helping anyone.

Really. W.T.F.?!?

Lynch the both of you for being goblins (behaviour-wise) and all the dwarves are better off.

Actually looking at the arguments presented beyond the emo, Timeater is coming out scummier. I'm not giving Cyber a free pass either, because a cool-headed scum can just be playing it easy while you tangle yourself up some more.

Vote Timeater
FoS Cyber

Getting mad is not a scumtell.

Let me elaborate. At the time, I was quite eager to get a lynch, since a huge discussion generally gets going after the first lynch (no matter the outcome). But as I've said; I prefer a lynch with reasons behind it. Since iLord, for some reason, found my vote extremely scummy, a discussion (and disagreement) envoke. Therefore, no need for lynching roffman without any proof/clues of him being scummy (even though his eagerness might be interpreted as scummy). Right now, I consider roffman as neutral.

Tuber, how much experience have you had?

You should know that games start up on their own - there's no need for a random lynch to start discussion.

A weak wagon maybe, but not striving for a "lucky hit."

I believe that those two things, go hand in hand...

Usually, if there's need for a random lynch due to set-up, it tends to be for speed, but in a undisclosed and discovered set-up such as this, random lynches only happen slowly, after discussion has failed.

Which it never has in my experience and the games I've read. It's not actually that many (Only about 30 games), but it's a decent enough sample to allow me to make that assumption.

I can assure you that there will be no more outbursts like that from me. I've done my part to try and cool the waters.

Good job - not many people (e.g. me) can stop arguing once they get fired up.

I also agree with pesco on this one that Timeater is the scummier looking of the two in that last babble
unvote
vote Timeater

No way I'm going to let this slide.

Not only do you not list reasons, you barn a post that listed a faulty reason.

And, you're being oppertunisitc.

Unvote, Vote CoheedCambria09.

@iLord: I signed up on Sally years ago, but only became active when I saw there's mafia there from your sig. I have some reserved opinions about the crowd there.

I personally like the Sally playerbase better than the base here - they seem to be more serious players, and more of them are logical and good scum hunters.

Not that players here aren't good - they are, but it's just that there's so many players that aren't.

Roffman voted you because you weren't being helpful to town. That's not a random vote.

All your posts before the fiasco with Cyber has nothing in terms of useful information, just fluffy cotton candy. Getting all worked up at Cyber's FoS indicated to me that you were being extremely jumpy for something that small. Instead of making him remove his FoS by actually giving good content, you made a huge distraction. These reactions make you scummy, failing that, a liability to town if you are innocent.

Lastly, I'm calling your WIFOM here. I'll take the wine in front of me.

Semi-Valid reasons! Yay!

Still none from Coheed.

What do my posts before the incident have anything to with this conversation? They were fluff because I had yet to commit myself to this game and nothing really peaked my interest. I am post vigorously now, and thats enough.

I was getting worked up over the scumminess of Bob's original post and subsequent follow-up attack posts. The whole "liability to the town" comment is not only scummy on your part its just bad town philosophy. Its an excuse made by weak town players and often recited by scum. I realize I'm L-3 so I'll save the town time and trouble by claiming now, giving us a chance to focus on Bob and other likely candidates.

I'm Minkot Custinthrith, a cook. I'm a good guy who recently came to "Osvalanthez". I'm town and I'm not apart of the danger

Ah - early claims are bad. DON'T CONTINUE TO ANSWER CLAIM QUESTIONS.

Tim does not need to claim yet - he's done nothing scummy.

I'm thinking Coheed's scum, now.

[iLord]

I don't see early claims as suspicious per say, but they are most definitely anti-town.

Unless it's extremely obvious that a person was going to be wagoned, of course.

Which shouldn't happen short of a cop investigation or something of the sort.

[iLord]

I guess most of the games I've played have just been really slow and poor on analysises the first day. In this game however, this has not been the case.

Hmm...

I can actually understand that - on certain sites (even one's I've played in), Mafia is a lot weaker.

[iLord]

Posts like this irritate me. The age old "dumb or scum" line. I'm probably double the player you'll ever be. You dont know how I play and you dont know my playstyle. Go ahead, side with Bob because he uses ad hominem attacks and pompous words like "anaphoric". That totally makes him smart and a good not-rash player.

Ramus, and CyberBob, ignore this post, please.

Timeater, just let it drop. If it irritates you, don't say anything about it - just say that the reasoning isn't valid.

I'm sure that Ramus wasn't trying to insult your playing ability.

We don't want more flamewars going on.

[iLord]

Also, quit with the appeal to emotion. Now, I'll ask:

Why did you feel the need to make this statement?

[iLord]

@timeater: What powers do cooks have. I know, but do you?

Tim: DO NOT ANSWER THIS.

Roffman, pardon my crudeness, but shut up.

Mainly because I didn't want to sound submissive. Therefore, I guess I tacked that on so I didn't sound guilty. After all, it was just a misinterpretation, so I'll just call it that.

It was also because he was indeed using appeal to emotion and throwing insults at me without any real evidence to back it up, and I prefer not to have bad karma this early in the game.

So you understand that there's no point, right?

It's not scummy, and it's just going to aggrevate him.

[iLord]

asdfasdf

2. I never said that third quote...

My bad, that's Tuber.

1. You said before that it was a "joke bandwagon", so you were implying that it wasn't a real bandwagon in that post.

Joke bandwagon?

I do believe that I had already mentioned that joke was most likely the incorrect term for what I meant.

I'm not blatantly fishing. I believe in game as flavor based as this that scum would need to have been given safe claims. However, if timeater's role matches my description of a cook, then i'd claim as well. That way, we'll have two cleared townies, making the game significantly harder than scum as they either have to waste night kills going through us and protective roles, or keep our votes active in a smaller pool of suspects.

Alternatively, he could claim differently to me, in which case one of us should be lynched, and you get yourselves a scum for the cost of a townie. Fair trade i think.

Hmm..

You're a cook as well?

How many classes are there in DF? If there's a lot, then I think this could be important, but if there's only a few, I think it'd be better for both of you to keep quiet.

unvote reduces the wagon, everyone get whats they want.

Tim. did just do the exact same thing to me though, so why is he not being as scrutinized for it?

Horribly scummy - jumping out of the spotlight and deflection.

I'm happy with my vote.

[iLord]

Pointing it out = deflection for your suspicion to another player.

I am not buying the "Oops I was wrong) excuse for one second - that's jumping out of the spotlight.

[iLord]

Coheed doesn't read like scared, panicking townie - he reads like scared, panicking scum.

Townies under pressure either ignore it, explode, or break down. Scum under pressure could do the same things (especially if they are skilled players), but they also have a tendency to back away and to attack others, which is exactly what Coheed did. Townies who are afraid of being lynched tend away from deflection and more at emotional outbursts.

For example, Town or Scum Coheed under pressure could start screaming at the town, but only Scum Coheed would attempt to deflect and back away.

[iLord]

Townies scared of being lynched typically do not just back away immediately in an effort to save themselves, unless they're really new (read: 1st or 2nd game). They learn quickly that it doesn't work.

The "I'm just easily swayed" excuse the first excuse used in some fashion by most scum when they are caught jumping on a wagon.

[iLord]

asdfasdf

This is completely false. In a previous game(one of my first) I got into a bit of trouble and drew suspicion. I was town and since I was drawing bad attention I exploded. I completely lost it and all I did was make it worse. So I decide in this game that I'm gonna back off and let things cool down and all that happens is the exact same thing, people still suspect me. holy moley.

Umm...

That doesn't go against my logic.

Townies explode - you exploded.

Scum back away - you backed away this game.

I don't get how it is scummy, since if scum wanted to vote someone, wouldn't they use the random phase (not ending the random phase) as an excuse to vote? Also, I don't get what is the point of this statement, since I don't really see how it applies to Tuberkulos.

It's scummy because it gives the scum an excuse to do pratically whatever they want. If they get called out on it, they just say "I just wanted to end the random phase."

Tuber's excuse for his vote on getting a "lucky hit" was that it was the random phase.

iLord, please respond to this, since we cleared up the confusion of me not saying that quote

I explained it here:

Lucky Hit =/= random vote.

Lucky Hit = Random Wagon = Bad for town.

Since you're so good at math !

I think Coheed's at L-3.

[iLord]

I don't see how ending the random vote phase is a bad thing at all. It's probably one of the best things to happen to the town on the first day. Random votes only seem to cause disputes if anything and don't bring up evidence. Therefore ending random voting seems pretty townie regardless of how it's done (with the exception of lynching someone).

The random phase ending is a good thing.

Using "ending the random phase" as an excuse to do whatever is scummy.

[iLord]

Coheed, your bluff isn't fooling anyone - we will lynch you if so decide.

[iLord]

Wow - that is really anti-town - a lot mroe so than a roleblocker.

I'm not buying it - I think you're not fakeclaiiming and trying to get a way with it.

[iLord]

@Tim: Yeah, but if he hurts a town power role, the town loses it forever. Unlike a roleblocker, one miss could be devastating.

@Reborn: Why doesn't it work?

[iLord]

Don't forget claimed vanilla.

[iLord]

Look at your examples - you didn't even bother making up good pro-town examples.

Why would the mod give a townie a weird role, and then give examples on how it hurts SKs, Vigs, and Doctors, rather than how it hurts Mafia?

Aren't Kobold's bad - I'm a dwarf.

[iLord]

Why do you think you can steal the SK and Vig's kills, but not the Mafia?

[iLord]

I'd assume it's because of:

1. It's an ability that's physically stuck with the Godfather. Unlike other skills, this is permanent.

2. The mafians on a whole decide who to kill and thus there is no one Godfather.

Either way, I don't believe CoCam, so my vote is going no where anytime soon.

Ack.

Don't answer for other people - it doesn't matter whether or not you suspect him.

Coheed, answer the question still.

Althought I'm not sure what much Coheed could say - he's claim has pretty much damned him.

[iLord]

Kobolds are exclusively badguys in DF?

Well then, I don't see much possibility of Coheed being town, with his behavior and claim.

I support a hammer.

[iLord]

I actually Coheed's claimed was his actual role, albeit as scum.

[iLord]

And now we just await the lynch scene.

I have some thoughts on who to look at Day 2 if I get NK'd.

Most notably, look into Pesco and Reborn.

[iLord]

@AW: What type of information do you think we could've gleamed?

In theory, long days benefit the town.
In practice, long days are actually harmul to the town.

[iLord]

Nah, Claus will come when he comes. You can PM him if you really want to.

I suppose he could've been scummier, but what was piled on him was damning enough that the possible additional information would not be significant.

In fact, I actually think that our haste is beneficial to the town, as faster days keep the town from being bored. One of the most dangerous situations a game can delve to is one where the townies lack motivation to make analysis. Many games have been snatched away from the hands of townie victory by an apathetic town.

[iLord]

Wow, that sucks.

That must be the most anti-town town role (A kobold role-thief?).

[iLord]

@AW: It's not only the kobold part, but the role-thief part as well. It's just as much guessing the mod as claim analysis that lead us to his lynch.

[iLord]

In flavorful games, generally the "Dark Knight Syndrome" won't happen, unless its an entire "Dark Knight" scumteam.

For example, in a flavorful FFVII set-up, Cloud and Sephrioth would not be on the same side.

I thought that Kobolds and Dwarfs were like Shinra and AVALANCHE.

Coheed has no motivation for saying "go town" as scum, so I'm very inclined to think he's telling the truth.

[iLord]

It matters little what reasons other people listed to jump on the wagon - the imporant part is what reasons actually exisited. I'd say this lynch cannot be blamed on "gaming the mod." We played reasonably rationally.

[iLord]

No time today - catch up tommorrow.

[iLord]

@AW: Sorry still - I'm just really busy.

I promise I'll catch up in full tommorrow.

Loose comments - I believe Roffman and Timeater. Either both of them are scum or both of them are town - timeater would've had to be outrageously lucky or roffman would've had to be hoping on the small chance that timeater wouldn't claim a single power role.

I'm going to look into Pesco still, but later.

[iLord]

mDSD

Hey guys! I'm replacing Verbal who made exactly 2 posts... a lot to live up too there.

Anyway, I'm going to dive right in.
I've read through and I currently find iLord most suspicious. He has had plenty of reasonable looking discussions, but his only reason for suspecting Tub was that tub was trying to end the discussion phase. Ramus metioned trying to do the same thing, yet IL didn't suspect him. and then I don't like IL's subsequent trouble with the difference between "joking" and "eager"
Also, IL tried hard to be the peacemaker between CB and Time. Then near the end he says he supports the hammer on CC, but after the CC hammer tries to comfort the town by saying it was reasonable. He also acts innocent by throwing out his suspect "just in case he gets NK'd"
I think all of that is him trying too hard to be townie. IL's exlaination is that "trying to end the random phase isn't scummy, but using it as an excuse to do whatever is" I really didn't see Tub "doing whatever" but rather placing a semi-random vote and then disucssing it.

Tub tried to lynch someone to end the random phase. That's scummy.

I don't get what you mean by the support/comfort on the CC hammer.

I suspect Pesco more than ever now, and I wanted the town to heed my words if I die - I've had games where I was able to identify the scum, but was nightkilled. It's a low risk tactic with a lot of gain.

Again, Tub specifically said that he hoped for a lucky hit (aka Lynch) with his vote.

Odd that Cyberbob should die and turn town. It looks like someone is trying to frame me, the man who was belligerent with Bob and thought he scum adamantly, and who had very obvious feelings of disdain towards Bob. Looking the thread over now for any clues who might want to do that.

First of all, arguing wasn't scummy, even if Bob is town. Second of all, don't defend yourself from arguments that no one has made yet - it's bad for scum or townies.

I actually am reading this case of overdefensiveness as a null tell due to its deleterious nature to both scum and town.

Getting on the defensive before even countering an offensive - I dont see whats wrong with that - it shoots down any scum arguement it happens. Its just good forsight on my part. I'm scumhunting and trying to figure out who/why someone would do that, and Pesco seems to be the one driving that line of thought.

No - that argument may not be made against you at all. Defending now and later requires the same amount of effort, but you wait to see if the defense is neccesary before you make it.

What is a FoS other than a cleverly disguised "I think so"? Can this vicious little reply be anymore scummy?

I never said I dont like you, I said you've said some scummy things and did some things I didnt like.

And really - when have you needed full genuine proof to lynch someone? Are you saying its impossible to make a case against you without full proof? Are you saying that gut feeling and intuition are irrelevant? You'll be hard-pressed to find cases in mafia of absolute proof. Proof is not the basis of accusation.

Vote: Pesco

This post is weak - that's not what Pesco means.

Pesco case following this post, maybe tommorrow.

Why are you so intent on fishing for roles? You realize its a BAD idea to give scum ideas about who might have possible power roles and

who might not have power roles

? Get that through your skull.

Good job there Tim - not too obvious but enough to show that you had foresight about your role.

You are glad a pro-town is dead?

Vote Timeater

Seriously...

Imagine that your scum.

Then tell me that this is scummy.

I do not like Time's play at all. I will be the first to admit it may just be personality differences, but it is a good chance that many of the people he is talking to, calling dense, dodging questions from are town. I'm not 100% convinced Time is scum, but I have to be honest and admit that regardless the game woudl be better without him. We don't need town OR scum players that are detremental to the town. Time's play has been damaging all along. If Bob had not been NK'd Time would no doubt be leading the lynch against him. Time's playstyle and scumdar (or lack thereof) are not going to help us this game

vote: Timeater

If you need proof of Time's irrational and lashing out behavior, just watch how he reacts to this post.

This post is really scummy - advocating Tim's lynch even though he's town because he is harming the town?

How is he harming the town?

How do you know his scumdar is useless?

Even if it was useless, shouldn't we be using lynches on people were pretty sure are scum?

Like you?

FOS: Sekinj

I'm going to see wha't in a Pesco case, and then decide if I would rather have Sekinj or Pesco lynched.

Yes, thats right. I tire of playing alpha townie almost every other game I play.

I wouldn't mind having the players follow me every game.

----------------------------------------

Here Tim flames other posters.

Here, we ignore the insults, right guys?

Tim, if you can help it, try and control your temper. We're all here to have fun, and no one likes insults (Both from and towards you). If you really aren't enjoying this game, you can replace out - there's no need to continue doing something you don't want to do.

------------------------------------------

I'm not convinced. Roffman and Timeater may have just gotten lucky and found each other to be townie, but it still seems to have happened a bit too well.

Also, I'm having trouble follow the logic of either of you, so...

##Vote: Timeater

Seems like a bad scum attempt at talking during the day or at least clearing themselves.

Think before you act scummy - think how lucky either of them would have to be to be of opposite alignment.

Unless, of course, you think that they are both scum.

Do explain if you think so.

----------------------------------------------

Okay, Pesco case coming after I catch up in my other game.

[iLord]

asdfasdf

starting flame wars, lashing out at everyone, including insults in almost every reply to a case against him... What better distraction do scum need?

Ignoring his insults and keeping a townie alive would be ideal.

Becuase he himself said that he would be going full tilt after cyberbob today if CB hadn't been NK'd.

That doesn't mean his scumdar is always useless - he was wrong once - big deal. We've all been wrong mutliple times.

idealy, yes. However, I think it's also important to limit distractions so that the town can win. If I can see a better case against someone else, or some scum makes a blunder, I will be more than happy to switch my vote to someone I am more sure is scum. Right now I have my vote on my top suspect.

Top suspect? Your top suspect who you said was only a distraction for the town? Are you saying that he is scum for distracting the town? By drawing attention to himself?

IL- if you had a case I could respond to it... but apparently you don't... do you at least have a reason?

The point that you attacked Sekinj, citing that even if he is town, he is a distraction.

iLord - loving your chainsaw defence of Timeater there. You start out mildly critical of Tim, but by the end you're defending every scummy action of his, and attacking myself, sekinj, and Pesco.

I'm defending Tim because the points against him are weak.

I haven't attacked you, or Pesco from the recent post (My case is going to be focused on yesterday).

No, that's not what sekinj said at all.
She didn't say she thinks you're town - she thinks your play is anti-town. At no point has sekinj said "Timeater is town, but annoying, so lets lynch plz, kthnxbai".
Tim's massive misrep of sekinj + iLord's chainsawing = scum pair?

No, Seknij's only point against Tim is that even if he turns up town, he was only a dsitraction.

If she had some other points, I would consider the case, but that on it's own is a scum-motivated point.

[iLord]

mDSM

PBPA on Pesco:

Really. W.T.F.?!?

Lynch the both of you for being goblins (behaviour-wise) and all the dwarves are better off.

Actually looking at the arguments presented beyond the emo, Timeater is coming out scummier. I'm not giving Cyber a free pass either, because a cool-headed scum can just be playing it easy while you tangle yourself up some more.

Vote Timeater
FoS Cyber

Pesco has succeeded in pulling suspicion on both Bob and Tim without stating any reasons for either, other than that they were arguing, which is a null tell.

Roffman voted you because you weren't being helpful to town. That's not a random vote.

All your posts before the fiasco with Cyber has nothing in terms of useful information, just fluffy cotton candy. Getting all worked up at Cyber's FoS indicated to me that you were being extremely jumpy for something that small. Instead of making him remove his FoS by actually giving good content, you made a huge distraction. These reactions make you scummy, failing that, a liability to town if you are innocent.

Lastly, I'm calling your WIFOM here. I'll take the wine in front of me.

Explains reasons for Tim.

Not for Bob.

Rereading from the very beginning again, this post actually sounds like Tim was voting Cyber because Cyber didn't find Roffman scummy (admitted as a ragevote here. I want clarification on why Tim has such tunnel vision against Roffman, with no metagaming as reasons.

I intended to pay closer attention to the Tuber discussion in my read, but the size of the flamewar proved too big for me to pick out much.

What I have noticed is that Tim and Tuber have been somewhat mutually defensive of each other. They read each other as pro-town and declare the same people scummy. Something is not quite right here.

That last sentence is the important part. With only the fact that Tim and Tuber are agreeing, Pesco draws the brilliant conclusion that they are scumbuddies. Tactfully, he does not outright state this, of course, but he's managed once again to put suspicion on players for poor reasions.

It'd be more odd if he turned up scum. Why do you even need to post a line like this? Feling the same vibe as everyone before me on this one.

FoS Tim

I'm not quite getting Pesco's logic for thinking Tim's scum here.

This one smells like WIFOM loaded crap. Reading into it as a bluff, I'd say that if Roffman is scum, he's got a safe-claim as a cook and hence the need to fish. This conclusion is a bit contradictory to the exchange between Roffman and Tim, where it seems that both of them do know what a cook does. In that case, I'm still a bit uncomfortable with accepting that 2 players can have the same role and be on the same side.

If it weren't for this, I'd have voted Tim again in agreeance with Sekinj. Roffman is doing more IioA compared to Tim's plain anti-town behaviour.

Vote Roffman

This is a weak attack on Roffman - he's already offered to be lynched first, so that lowers the possibility of a gambit (especially since he's not confirmed if Tim turns up town).

Right now, my view on the situation is that Roffman and Tim are both town, mostly due to my read of Roffman as town right now. Tim is almost guarenteed town, unless both he and Tim are scum together. And if they are, such a situation will become evident soon enough.

I'm just going to throw out my read on this whole cook-roleclaim.

When Roffman first said he wanted to be a lightning rod for NK, I felt it was WIFOM. Tim's reaction of saying he doesn't want to play that way, gave me the feel that they had abilities. My thoughts concluded that they were cops with sanity issues (multiple occurences of the same role on one side). This told me it would be WIFOM thrown at scum, I could accept that to be risky town play.

The problem now arises that they're claiming vanilla. Every team has vanillas, be they town, scum, cults, third party etc. Bob was also a vanilla, yet his role-title was animal trainer. One cook flipping vanilla is not going to clear anyone else.

Wait, I just thought about it a bit.

If the scum get Chef as a safeclaim/role despite Chef being an actual town role, then they could be of different alignment.

I need to think about this.

----------------------------------------------

Overall, the case against Pesco was a lot weaker than my vibes indicated.

I'm inclined to go to a

Vote Sekinj

instead.

I need to ponder the Roffman/Timeater thing some more.

[iLord]

iLord, do you have a role quirk you'd like to tell us about? Something to do with the fact you seem to be putting random letters at teh start of every post? Are you in a Strange Mood?

Nah, it's just "mDSM" a semi-random stream of letters to get me to the preview page, where I type up most of my posts.

Do you understand the nature of my attack against you?

[iLord]

Yeah, I like the other system of forums a lot better, where you can press Ctl B for bold and other stuff.

[iLord]

So roffman, do you agree with me about Sekinj?

[iLord]

Sekinj, you're right, I don't like your case against me.

However, I've voting you because of the logic used in the case benefits only scum.

Only scum would lynch on the basis that even if they were town, it still wouldn't harm the town.

That's why I'm voting you.

And that's what I'm asking roffman about.

I think your case against me is weak as well, and I've explained why in my long post a while back.

[iLord]

@Pesco: What has Tim done? No one else answer.

[quote="KoC']So you see no reason to lynch sekinj yet - which implies you would lynch later - but then you say the only people you have a scum read on right now are roffman and Tim. Are you saying you would lynch sekinj later on regardless? And why is the point moot? They're scummy, explain why, get people to vote for them, lynch, win (hopefully). [/quote]

Very good catch on the "yet" - I was thinking the same thing.

Ramus needs to explain.

FOS: Ramus

[iLord]

It's depressing that i'm 90% sure timeater is town, i still want to lynch him as scum.

Why?

i agree with ilord that there is a case against sekinj, though i'm not really sure of the strength of it. I believe though that your wanting to lynch timeater even though he might be town to eliminate distractions is not necessarily a scummy action.

What do you mean by the case?

Do you think that it is a scummy action?

If you do, there's a case.

If you don't think it is a scummy action, then there is no case.

I don't get what you're trying to say, but I'm seeing some serious fence-sitting here.

[iLord]

Nothing to town's benefit on Day 1, no original scum hunting on Day 2.

I've asked you some questions too, you should answer.

That's what he hasn't done.

What has he done to indicate that he is scum?

Could you please repeate your questions - I don't seem to be able to find them.

I'm not sure what the case is, i just have a gut feeling that something about you is not right. I'll go through later and see if there is anything to it, or just my imagination.

As for lynching tim, he's play is highly distracting to town, and just keeps on triggering my scumdar.

Wow - caught fence-sitting and bandwagoning at the same time - that's utter crap.

Unvote, Vote Roffman

I seriously am getting tired of people following scumpinion. I'm town. I dont like how Roffman is basically selling me out when I bothered to go out and a limb and state my role and status as a vanilla and he's been more than willing to say I'm a "detriment" (without saying why or how) when I havent posted in a day or two. I'm just really losing faith in this group.

Yeah, I had forgotten about that too - Roffman was the one that was trying to "confirm" Tim!

Wow, Roffman's got some explaining to do!

[iLord]

FLLL

@ iLord: I'd like to know why you seem to be prepared to write off just about everything Tim has done? From a purely analytical view of his playstyle, it's not exactly the best thing to convince people with and you say that it hasn't harmed town. How has Tim made any benefit to town then? How do you keep reading him as town?

I was under the impression that I had already answered this - Tim has done nothing.

And he has been analyzing/scumhunting.

I'm reading him as town because he's contributing and he hasn't done anything particularily scummy.

----------------------------------

Ramus, I still can't tell how you think about Roffman...

[iLord]

Why vote now?

Why not earlier?

[iLord]

I'm afraid I must apologize, for a sudden change in circumstances has made it so I will be unable to post very often. I hope you will forgive my inactivity for the rest of the game.

[iLord]

Yeah, I was really, really agitated that the claimed SK didn't get lynched, regardless of what he spouted out in thread.

Good job modding, Claus.

Good game people.

[iLord]

And again, good game everyone, I'm sorry if we should have lynched Pesco, I actually thought that we had just a slightly bigger chance of winning if we lynched Ramus, since it was more possible for Pesco to have lost a NK than Ramus to be town (to me, those probabilities were like 10%>5%).

It's not just you - you guys all had several chances to do it.

[iLord]

I must say that my scumdar was completely off. Wrong about everyone at the end, before the mass claim.

I guess Sekinj was right about how the game would've turned out after Day 4...

[iLord]

You were still right about me being suspect though

Remember, I dropped it .