Minvitational 8 - OVER before 611

[shaft.ed]

Quick wagon so win
bandwagon to victory
Nibbler has tight ass

vote: Adel

[shaft.ed]

Vote cicero

Vote cicero

Wagon please.[/b]

You must persuade me towards your wagon.

Also hello everyone I haven't yet played with, very excited to get the chance.

[shaft.ed]

Haikus? Really?

just a joke for cicero, Adel and Guardian regarding iPick.

[shaft.ed]

Is that an Aussie thing?

[shaft.ed]

Is that an Aussie thing?

No. I was under the impression that the desire to get rid of Oman was universal

You had me at no.

unvote vote: Oman

[shaft.ed]

Vote: curiouskarmadog

.

A good OMGUS to get me started in the morning.

This is not a vote for cicero.

Why do you only point out Billy's vote? Do you secretly wish you could vote for Oman?

[shaft.ed]

I too am very glad to be here. I consider being chosen a tremendous honor, knowing how many players out there are deserving of a spot. I look forward to a good game.

I felt the same way until I saw Oman and Erg0 here

Just kidding, and I probably shouldn't be talking. I personally think there are quite a few people that deserve this spot more than I. Spamming the GD must be worth something.

[shaft.ed]

quietly notices Oman's shifting the wagon to cicero

And cicero I have to disagree re: Simenon's town tell. I do not think you can claim scum more likely to ride the pine early on. I expect more than cliche tells like that out of this game, and I'd be fairly certain everyone has a good grasp on their town meta to know if they should be running a flippant wagon or not. Now can someone please tell me if town Simenon is flippant

[shaft.ed]

man it seems cicero's defense to early bandwagoning is lots of words, which I'm going to have to read.

I've got some experiments to do. I'll try to get some replies up when I get a chance.

Just a few points I noticed when skimming:

quietly notices Oman's shifting the wagon to cicero

I made it quite known that I was intending to shift to cicero.

My point here is that we were supposed to be bandwagoning you. But with your hard push on cicero in conjunction with Simenon's hard pushing, cicero became the predominant bandwagon.

what were our scumtells in that game, btw?

To be honest, since the mod picked the scum I had an inclination that you and vollkan were very likely on the scum team with a possibility of some cicero action. The more I played in your Nightmare the more I saw cicero and Guardian were buds and the more likely I thought cicero could be part of the scum group. As far as actual tells vollkan and cicero both posted much less than their usual amounts, especially during the D1 deadline lynch. Those two guys in town shoes never miss out on commenting at critical times, that was the first tip to me (however cicero was noticably posting less across site at the time so I was less sure about him). Your tell was that you are generally very "kamikaze" like as town and slightly more cautious as scum. I think your town play is generally to be scum bait which picks off 1 or 2 scum but tends to also damage your towniness. You were playing way fewer gambits and not trying to entice any votes on yourself, which seemed to be your strategy in House. What sealed the deal was your claim of targeting cicero, that was an obviously illogical claim. I should have broken my haiku restriction to point it out more thoroughly, but I thought I could get enough momentum without doing so.

[shaft.ed]

Unvote Vote: Oman

I dislike cicero's defence of himself.

The action and the statement seem to conflict.

[shaft.ed]

The way he went about it felt like townie trying to be flippant playing silly bugger, and thereby promote conversation, which, yes, I feel is something more often engaged in by townies because anything can happen in the early game and most scum will tend towards self preservationism and try to stay out of the early controversies. Not all. Of course scum can WIFOM it.

I think this has been talked to death, but another reason to be the one pushing heaviest for the early bandwagon is that if you get your way it won't be you, and if you're scum and get your way you can avoid partners. I still consider it a null-tell however.

Townside players may want to note this as a possible link between the two players. (Adel and Simenon)

I'm not seeing this. And I didn't really get the point of your three paragraph analysis as to why (which seemed layered with about 3-6 levels of WIFOM btw). Could you perhaps rehash your reasoning a little more directly?

This is a device designed to allow slippery wiggle room, the refuge of scum. Don't let him.

If he is using slippery wiggle room and it is a device of scum why do you not have a vote on him? Is there a town use for slippery wiggle room?

My problem is that I think "null tell" is just a cop out, here.

Meh there are plenty of null tells out there. But I see your counter argument that if one finds the initial Simenon play a null tell, then what makes one certain that the cicero comment that it is a town tell is in and of itself a tell?

I call this my "Candyman" scumtell, and find it surprisingly effective

I agree with the Candyman scumtell, but where is he. It's been to votes now?

[shaft.ed]

1. Them's fighting words. How much longer are you going to imply that I'm scum while attacking someone else?

That statement seems to cut both ways. You say the cicero wagon started as a random joke wagon but "something changed" along the way. I would assume this means you became more suspicious of cicero. If that's the case why drop your vote, and why join the wagon he is pushing?

[shaft.ed]

I know Erg0 can be quiet early game, are Shanba and Billy generally like this?

[shaft.ed]

I'll also whine about having gotten myself into more games then I'd like to be. Playing 5 and mod'ing 1. I prefer 2-3 at a time.

And Jitsu, you have as many wins as town as I do but with 3 less tries.


In regards to the game. Adel you seem quite calm, is this a new thing for you?

[shaft.ed]

shaft.ed: why do you say that we were supposed to be wagonning Oman? Sure, he had a few votes - but at least two of them were based on nothing much at all, so I doubt he was panicking and looking to redirect the wagon to cicero (at least, not for that reason).

That was a joke Erg0.

[shaft.ed]

My point here is that we were supposed to be bandwagoning you. But with your hard push on cicero in conjunction with Simenon's hard pushing, cicero became the predominant bandwagon.

Score

I thought it was pretty clear from Oman's response he new I was kidding with him.

[shaft.ed]

BT congrats on the baby!

Shanba are you still LA-ish I noticed that in the VLA thread. Others is Shanba generally lurky I haven't played with him prior?

I agree with CKD's Erg0 sentiment, but it also feels like a number of us are being overly careful. I don't think anyone wants to get knocked out early from a game like this. The person that worries me most in this regard is Adel. She's generally the one plowing through the early game like a bulldozer.

[shaft.ed]

Others is Shanba generally lurky I haven't played with him prior?

Yes, but substantive. Kind of like my memory of erg0, which no I'm beginning to doubt.

I played Erg0 once. He was quite lurky early game and picked up the pace quite a bit as the game drew longer.

I think you meant now.

[shaft.ed]

The person that worries me most in this regard is Adel. She's generally the one plowing through the early game like a bulldozer.

Adel am I wrong in noting that your playstyle here is significantly different than it has been in the past?

[shaft.ed]

The Fonz and Simenon may recall this playstyle from Basically Communist Mafia. Simenon may also remember the way I posted in Open 19. The Fonz probably remembers how I posted in Treestump mafia. Jitsu and Oman probably remember the way I posted during day 1 in Undergroud Mafia.

Just because I have never acted sane during a day 1 in a game we were in together doesn't mean that I don't have a record of acting sane during day 1s.

Good points. It's just that I've played with you in about 3 or 4 day 1's now and this is very different to me. Though I'm not sure why Erg0 taking you at face value is critical.

[shaft.ed]

Though I'm not sure why Erg0 taking you at face value is critical.

*hint:*

3. I doubt that tracks or traps will work well, unless they are really really subtle.

Well that's kind of why I asked. Seems you had your bases covered. Was a bit odd to single out Erg0.

[shaft.ed]

OK so the consensus seems to be that Adel hasn't played this conservative before. I don't know what that means, but it obviously has my attention.

I also agree Shanba, Jitsu, Billy and Erg0 are not contributing enough.

[shaft.ed]

Shaft.ed's 64 is odd. First he takes a parting shot at Oman for shifting the wagon to Cicero. Um, right, Oman did have three votes on him and Cicero only two at the end of page one, but you're really upset at Oman trying to "derail" a page 1 joke wagon by voting for Cicero? (This comes up later in 92 and other posts.)

The comment towards Oman about the bandwagon was primarily to gauge his reaction to it. If he had reacted overly defensive or incredibly longwinded about it I would have been worried. His reply was pretty much what I expected.

Also, Shaft.ed seems to jump into the "flippant" argument. Oddly, he seems to treat the "flippant" agrument at least semi-seriously, even though he disagrees with the town tell on Simenon. If Cicero thinks Simenon is town because he is flippant, and Shaft.ed disagrees it's a town tell, why the hell is being flippant relevant at all? I see the smiley after the last bit, but it still sounds like he's being half-serious here.

My point was that I view behavior relative to ones baseline more important than behavior in general. I'm not familiar with Simenon so I didn't know what to expect from him. This is also why I've been posting about Adel quite a bit because she is behaving so far off what I am accustomed to from her.

[shaft.ed]

OK so the consensus seems to be that Adel hasn't played this conservative before. I don't know what that means, but it obviously has my attention.

I also agree Shanba, Jitsu, Billy and Erg0 are not contributing enough.

Holy crap, can we please lynch him already?

So it doesn't bother you when a player's style changes 180 degrees from their norm?

[shaft.ed]

Jitsu, I have a very bad record of picking scum on Day 1. I think basing my lines of suspicion on day 1 primarily on existing metas works more effectively for me than trying to pull out minute scumtells from the low information environment of D1. From the games I've played with her Adel has a more reserved feel as scum than as town, but this is so glaringly obvious I don't know what to make of it.

Has Adel done anything so far in this game that has triggered your scumdar?

If she had I'd have voted her.

[shaft.ed]

By not attempting to confound am I attempting to confound?

I changed by not changing at all, small town predicts my fate

In other news, Shanba hasn't been on site since Friday.

Can we please get a prod?

[shaft.ed]

I think my point about Adel playing conservative is being blown up a bit. I said pretty much all it that it's worth right here:

From the games I've played with her Adel has a more reserved feel as scum than as town, but this is so glaringly obvious I don't know what to make of it.

And I was asking other's opinions because 1) I would like people on record as I feel it is a point of interest to the game and 2) I want to see if I'm over-interperating her play.

I agree with Jitsu's point against CKD:

So you still want to hear his reason, but you are unvoting and saying that Shanba should still consider your vote still there? What's up with that? He was only at four votes by my count. I highly doubt that he was in any danger of being quicklynched.

To unvote at L-3 is a bit strange to me. You know there aren't any wild cards in this game that will come by and hammer out of the ether. Why the concern?

unvote vote: CKD

[shaft.ed]

CKD unvotes Shanba because Shanba is absent from the site but still puts a placeholder comment that is basically still an IGMEOY on Shanba, and that makes CKD scummy? I thought it was perfectly sensible and don't agree with Jitsu's point at all.

I disagree. It's not like he needed the vote for something else, and there is no need for precaution at this point in time. I don't see any need to remove the vote if Shanba is the player that is garnering the most suspicion from him at the time. His comment is also a bit odd to me:

I hate Day 1s without a Night 0, or maybe I am just insecure about my scum hunting abilities day 1 with little to go on. not sure why the wagon is shifting to Shanba if he is not even posting at this site.

First I've seen CKD peg scum on Day 1 of two games. I think he's got a good Day 1 nose (maybe it was just a fluke?). But the "not sure why the wagon is shifting" comment sits wrong with me. It should be noted that he was the first to vote Shanba. And he seems to be getting nervous that a sizable wagon is forming. If he is suspicious of him he shouldn't be worried about it. As I've stated this town has no wildcard that will hammer out of nowhere. And the pressure was what he seemed to want in the first place. Why is he backing off of it?

Also should be noted I messed up my quote tags in my previous post claiming CKD said what Jitsu did.

[shaft.ed]

I can understand a BW to pressure someone who is here, but this BW seems off or disingenuous. That being said I want my vote to still be considered there (for the time being) but I don’t like the company of voters I am voting with atm to actually keep it there.

This is what I don't get. If the BW startled you enough to remove your vote, why don't you take action against the people that were swift wagoning?

Noted, you felt Oman was scummy, and his quick vote (following Sime) for little reason makes him less scummy then my cautious unvote.

I've never once accused Oman of being scummy in this game. And your unvote was overly cautious thus suspicious.

[shaft.ed]

ahh, so it was a random vote you were keeping on him as the leading bandwagon? Also what were you implying when you noted

quietly notices Oman's shifting the wagon to cicero

I've commented on this line multiple times now. It was a line to see how Oman would react to it.

who should I have taken action against? Sime? Oman? How could I chose which one. I would rather watch their actions somemore (scum hunt). Why are you pushing me to vote?

Fair enough, I respect your choice to observe other tells, but that still doesn't explain maintaining a pseudovote at L-3. And I'm not pushing you to vote, I'm inquiring what the purpose of removing the vote from Shanba was. If felt like you were trying to avoid a wagon on him.

and again, if you think I have such a good nose, why are you pushing me when I follow it?

This point makes the assumption you are town, which I have no informatino about.

[shaft.ed]

Shaft.ed, is Jitsu wrong to be so quick to accept CKDs explanation?

I think Jitsu is splitting hairs with his post. He obviously had concerns about CKD, and in my opinion I don't think they were adequately addressed, but he backs down rather quickly without a single follow up question. He keeps his opinion of CKD rather close to his chest by asking the question with no indication of his opinion of CKD so he could react to it just about any way he wants and argue accordingly. However, you may be conflating my suspicion with Jitsu's.

He didn't overreact and gave a logical reason why he did what he did, so I find his reaction more likely to be townish.

What reason would you have found illogical? Besides his answer what result would have made you suspicious? I don't see a way for him to have answered your question "wrong."

[shaft.ed]

If felt like you were trying to avoid a wagon on him.

in a sense I was, but at the same time not (psuedo vote). But lets say I was for an instance...that means I am likely scum in your book?

Why would you want to avoid a wagon on him if you remain suspicous of his play? It seems possible that scum would unovte like that to avoid a wagon on there buddy. Thus it seemed possible you put the vote on him as a form of distancing but didn't like the prospect of him encountering a sizable wagon out of the blue on his return. But I do realize that this situation requires both you and Shanba to be scum which is a lot of assumptions to be making at this point.


Jitsu would you please address my questions?

[shaft.ed]

I didn't see any

openings

in his answer to

exploit

further .

Excuse me?

unvote vote: Jitsu

[shaft.ed]

why didnt you wait a bit to see where my vote might have gone next (wouldnt that have provided much more information?). or even waited to see what Shanba would have flipped, if/when he was lynched?

The former is a good point. My scum hunting tends to be overeager as I jump on oddities that I notice like that hoping to catch scum off guard while the event is still fresh. The latter is a bit off though. I'm not going to wait until Shanba flips just to bring this up because I might be dead by then and I don't see a current reason for Shanba to be dead in the near future. If he were at L-1 with a threat of lynch I would think about it, but then we run into the problem that you're reasons for concern may be more valid, or maybe less valid and thus more scummy.

[shaft.ed]

Why the concern, shaft.ed?

You say the unvote is "a bit strange", but could you flesh out how that oddness translates into scumminess?

I've addressed this in my back and forth with CKD, please refer to those posts.

[shaft.ed]

@ shaft.ed would you call my play in this game conservative? It is the most recent game to end where I was town.

I'll give it a read.

Simenon, you can't tell me that doesn't look like an unconcious slip up. Jitsu's never been scum, I think it warrants pressure.

[shaft.ed]

@ shaft.ed would you call my play in this game conservative? It is the most recent game to end where I was town.

Adel you replaced in halfway through the game, that's not comparable. My point is that the protown Adel I have always played with is a pot stirrer on D1, more so than the scum Adel I have played with.

[shaft.ed]

Does this pot need stirring?

Not at the moment.

[shaft.ed]

I think you need a new wagon shaft.ed, I don't think the Jitsu one is going anywhere. There is plenty of room up here though. Wanna wagon Vollkan with me for a while?

I'm waiting for replies from Jitsu and vollkan.

vollkan is not looking that scummy to me.

[shaft.ed]

Simenon, you can't tell me that doesn't look like an unconcious slip up. Jitsu's never been scum, I think it warrants pressure.

With or without the context?

If it's an unconcious slip up the context is irrelevant.

[quore="Sim"]I exploited an opening when I voted for you. vollkan spotted an opening through which he could attack Jitsu.
It's uncommon terminology, but it makes sense.[/quote]I guess I understand a different meaning of the word exploit than you. To me it's much more taking advantage of a situation to wrongly benefit yourself at another's expense. But consulting the dictionary I see that's not always the case. I've still never seen it used in such a context.

Mod: can we also get a BillyTwilight prod?

[shaft.ed]

Bah I fail at life,

mith if you could be so kind as to mend my quore tags?

[shaft.ed]

I didn't see any

openings

in his answer to

exploit

further .

Excuse me?

unvote vote: Jitsu

Unvote
Vote shaft.ed

Utterly opportunistic. This has to be a deliberate attempt to take that out of context, since I don't see how a townie who read the full post of Jitsu's couldn't understand his intention. Furthermore, he bolds some words in an attempt to distract from the larger picture.

I agree with Adel that vollkan looks likes he's trying to set up the Jitsu lynch. However, I'm not sure he would be if shaft.ed isn't scum, so I prefer this wagon.

Yay!

Fwiw, I don't think it's uncommon for Adel to play like this on day one. I certainly haven't ever seen her feel the need to press some huge gambit straight out the gate. At least, not when she's town.

Who's lurking in plain site again?

[shaft.ed]

Is that double WIFOM?

Headsplode

Cicero I'm a bit confused that you could simultaneously agree with Adel that vollkan's Jitsu case seems disingenuous, while agreeing with a lot of his points about waffling.



VOICE OF MOD: Also I'm currently looking for a back-up mod, since you guys are all awesome and everything maybe one of you would like to back up a game based on Monty Python?[/mod whoring]

[shaft.ed]

Bah like quadruple ninja'd, got a phone call while typing. The double WIFOM refers to 257 and 258

[shaft.ed]

I'm reading through the postsplosion now but I had to stop to say this:

Do you think you would have been better off without writing "haha"?

haha.

really made me laugh.

[shaft.ed]

Because after every mediocre post by CKD, Cicero is always there to make a comment afterwards that makes CKD's posts seem even worse.

Could you point out a couple of these? Not seeing this as a grand trend.

You have successfully had it all ways.

Yup. I haven't picked a side fully on this one yet.

Can you contrast this with the waffling you are accusing Jitsu of?

CKD not sure about your explanation for asking about being left off of a scum analysis or similar discussion. Would you have any examples on hand where this happened?

Oman you read awfully slow, any reason in particular why you didn't comment and why you've been hanging back a bit as of late?

In House Adel also rashly rode people to lynches if I recall correctly. I'd say tunnel vision is one of her more obvious traits.

it is pretty common in my experience for people to drop some analysis on less than the entire population of living players.

Do the rest of you agree?

Yes, in fact when reading cicero's post I did not think he was attempting a sweeping analysis.

Adel, you forgot Mini 458(?) you pushed for my lynch all day,

If this happened to you personally, why would you think Adel is incapable of tunnel vision?

The fact it waves an "I'm lurking" sign hardly serves to make it scummy, given that scum has just as little motivation to be limelighted as a lurker.

I'd say quite a lot less actually.

Billy seems to have a lot of demands for someone that has two contentful posts in this game.

I hate Day 1s without a Night 0, or maybe I am just insecure about my scum hunting abilities day 1 with little to go on. not sure why the wagon is shifting to Shanba if he is not even posting at this site.

unvote

my last question to shanba still stands though..and you should consider my vote still there.

ckd voted for shamba in post 164. vollkan voted for shamba in 166, simenon in 180, and oman in 182.

Is this an unvote of a scumbuddy getting nervous about the rate of acceleration of his buddy's wagon?

Holy talking about something after it's passed Batman. Where were you when CKD and I were going back and forth with this?

Finally an Adel vote chart. I've played in four games with you in the hopes of getting to play with one of your charts. I see you still haven't worked out the color coded arrows. Why are vollkan, Shanba, and Erg0's Oman votes counted if random stage votes are supposedly removed, I thought these were random?

CKD I don't know where you're getting those comments from (313).

[shaft.ed]

bah that post was like eleventy ninja'd

[shaft.ed]

Adel, you forgot Mini 458(?) you pushed for my lynch all day,

If this happened to you personally, why would you think Adel is incapable of tunnel vision?

Where did I say Adel is incapable of tunnel visioning? I DID recently say that she is indeed capable to tunnel visioning.

also adel, I think you do play differently every game in regards to your agreesiveness. But being narrow minded is a new thing.

I guess I equated narrow minded with tunnel vision. That was my mistake, but when paired with the ending of your post

DO you think you tunnel vision or bulldozer?

That was how I interpreted it. I see the ending was actually a question

between

tunnel vision and bulldozing I thought it was more a yes or no.

[shaft.ed]

you are spamming up the thread to bury & evade legit cases against you.

That's untrue, CKD posts very rapidly with short replies when in a heated exchange.

[shaft.ed]

I'm thinking on this one. I don't see scum Adel pushing so hard for a wagon that consists of her and her alone. While I know that's BS WIFOM logic, it's certainly an odd thing for scum to do.

At the same time CKD's behavior as of late has not been fundamentally different from his usual town play when in heated debate though Adel is making a case for this. And while I obviously did find his unvote to be off, it's also strange Adel makes such a strong case of it now when she didn't chime in as it was going on.

Adel, where were you the first time I was talking about CKD's unvote? Why did you not air suspicions then?

[shaft.ed]

With all of the profanity in 344 I failed to notice that ckd had to type out

and

fourteen times... without making an error or leaving a hanging tag.

Could that happen in the middle of a genuine emotional outburst?

I personally don't type out the quote tags. I'm a mouser.

[shaft.ed]

ok. Still, do you think the profanity was the result of a genuine emotional outburst, or was a calculated rhetorical device, or something else?

I don't see compelling evidence that it was fake. Why are profanity and the preview button mutually exclusive?

[shaft.ed]

ok. Still, do you think the profanity was the result of a genuine emotional outburst, or was a calculated rhetorical device, or something else?

I don't see compelling evidence that it was fake. Why are profanity and the preview button mutually exclusive?

I'm with shaft.ed. But I doubt that scumDel would think she could get away with this.

That's what I keep thinking. Maybe scumDel's motive is not to lynch CKD, but to appear as townDel? The WIFOM, it hurts.

[shaft.ed]

So what do the 'vollkan attack Jitsu' folks think of the continued back and forth? That's not getting much comment.

[shaft.ed]

Since Adel seems to have problems answer questions...I will address this to everyone.

"the scumtell that I've left out up until now is that I believe scum are more interested in what other players think of them than townies are."

I am interested in what other thinks of this. Do you agree with her? Do you think that she really believes this?

Yes I agree with this statement. Though I don't think it's a huge tell. And certain instances it's a town tell.

[shaft.ed]

So you regard Oman's recent lurking in plain site and admitting it as lazy and not scummy then?

I'm really not very happy with his play after reading back over his posts in isolation.

unvote, vote: Oman

What have you learned from your watching?

[shaft.ed]

It isn't that it isn't scummy. The question is: could you justify lynching Oman instead of Erg0 or Billy?

I don't know billy, but I'd say Oman's style is crazy different. Also his last post seemed to attempt to justify it as "Adel did it too," when as we've recently seen Adel has settled into her normal game play (which reminds me I forgot to check on something).

Erg0 is like this on Day 1's from my experience and yes he needs to post more. But I think Oman's justification and "look Adel did it" reasoning is a bit scummy and worthy of pressure.

[shaft.ed]

Adel, I'm pretty sure you still suspect CKD as scum. Do you agree with the scummy reasoning that the only reason for his Shanba unvote would be if Shanba was his scum partner?

[shaft.ed]

Bah EBWOP: Do you agree with the reasoning that the only

scummy

reason

[shaft.ed]

I still feel like you're blowing smoke out your ass. Your moogle supports this hypothesis.

What have you learned from your watching?

[shaft.ed]

I've learned that Vollkan isn't playing the way I'd expect him to.

Really? I know he's commenting on other people's points but he doesn't feel too engaged. Even when he intereacts with others, he's usually talking about Jitsu. It's kinda like he's sitting in the corner making out with Jitsu while we all play mafia. Though I will admit Jitsu's most recent post was a nice summary of his feelings on the game. I'm used to vollkan pursuing leads more and not passively commenting like this.

I've learned that CKD is playing in a very town way.

So you disagree with BT's recent assesment then? I think his point was pretty good. Whether or not CKD was knocked back on his heels by Adel, he hasn't really been probing a whole lot.

I've learned that you, shaft.ed, are reacting well to the bullshit that I feel was thrown on you.

Hmmm...I don't really recall that much bullshit being thown on me. Care to elaborate?

[shaft.ed]

I don't know if it's significant or not, but I find it a bit odd that he seems to be overeager to attack and has on a few occasions seemed quick to paint things in a scummier light than they really were.

I feel I've only overreacted to your earlier post, and I'm pretty sure that was just due to my lower level of vocabulary than yourself and others in this game. When I see something off I will usually tend to call someone out for it. I also wanted to see how you would respond to the pressure as you are an unknown to me.

Hoewever, he does not seem to have overreacted once on his defense, being quite careful and guarded and showing a lot of discipline. I agree with Simenon that some of his answers have seemed kind of deadpan.

If you read up on me you will note that I am not an emotional player. And I try to make sure my responses are as clear as possible when answering another's questions. If you would like elaborations on anything you feel I was guarded about you are free to inquire.

I think I see what the Fonz sees, but I'm not ready to vote him just quite yet. Shaft.ed been a bit more cautious lately though-- I'd like a few more data points.

The Fonz called me out quite a while ago for lurking in plain site and has since dropped of the face of the earth himself. What exactly are you seeing that "the Fonz sees?" And I take it I am thus your top scum candidate? You don't mention voting for anyone else.

[shaft.ed]

shafted, how do you define probe? Me, asking questions and getting reactions....You feel it is something else? Was I not probing when asking Shanba the question and voting..was I not probing (then attacked) for commenting on Cicero's mini cap, have I not probed Adel at all?

seems to me that I might be in the top 3 probers of this game.

I see you probing..asking question, then asking thought out follow ups, I am just curious how you see me as not probing.

who do you feel are the top 3 "probers" of the game..bottom three?

I don't think your Shanba probe was all that significant. The point had been made by others prior to your vote. And I still feel that your unvote was off.

Your comment about being left off of cicero's list would have just been a passing post if not for Adel's glomming onto it. I don't think it was likely to uncover anything of import.

Your probing of Adel has been largely defensive IMO. Mostly shooting down rightfully bogus points of her line of attack. I haven't seen you going back and looking at any of her earlier play as she has done in regards to you, yet you do have a vote cast against her. Did you look back and not find anything is that why it's not there, or where you happy with the evidence at hand?

Ignoring myself, I think Simenon, cicero and Adel have been doing the most work in this game as far as investigating goes, though I'm unhappy Simenon seems to have trailed off as of late. BT's recent posts have been nice but have not made up for his absence for the majority of the game.

Of the people actually posting (ie not Erg0, the Fonz or Shanba) I feel vollkan and Oman have been exceptionally light on the probing (taking vollkan against his normal standard), your posts seem rather reactionary and Jitsu's seem mostly observational similar to vollkan.

[shaft.ed]

So then him acknowledging Shanba's return throws that idea out?

[shaft.ed]

I've learned that you, shaft.ed, are reacting well to the bullshit that I feel was thrown on you.

Hmmm...I don't really recall that much bullshit being thown on me. Care to elaborate?

Early, page 10 or so, there were two major wagons, Vollkan and Shaft.ed. You dealt well with that.

Interesting. I only see one vote on vollkan and two on me. I have to assume that by bandwagon you mean the pressure being "thrown on me." I can't help but notice you were part of that pressure. Why do you refer to it as "bullshit" now?

[shaft.ed]

Anyway: Shaft.ed. I'm unsure as to which page, but there were two competeing wagons.

that's not even close to addressing my question.

I dont have time to read vollkan's posting right now but I'm glad to see some contribution.

[shaft.ed]

49: Here Adel does make a good point that I missed previously. CKD did not have a case on anyone else. Thus, I retract what I said (here and in the other post on this) about the wagon's ineffectiveness as a valid reason. At worst, it was going to do nothing, but CKD moved nowhere else.

I need to get better at putting my points across. I swore I said this word for word when I was going back and forth with CKD, but it is buried in my text and not clear. I'm still puzzling if there's anything that makes this scummy outside of a Shanba partnership cause I really don't see it. I know Adel put for the "avoiding being on bandwagon" theory earlier, but the unvote out of the blue draws more attention that being the originator of a valid pressure wagon doesn't it?

Also, vollkan I see your point re: the vollkan effect and the PBP's. I do think people will be using them as a cliff notes version of the game. I would not be terribly disappointed if you discontinued there use, or at least there publication in full.

[shaft.ed]

Vollkan effect does not occur in this case I'm sure.

Are you talking about the quality of the players involved? Cause in House Mafia the player list contained CKD, Erg0, Adel and Pooky. I'd say there's potential. And thanks for avoiding my question again.

[shaft.ed]

What do you mean by "publication in full"?

I'm suggesting that vollkan put down only the meaty parts of his PBP's. I get the feeling some may read such posts and think "nothing to see here" when they go across the more inane sections. For those not worried about it, I suggest you read House Mafia. That game had an all-star cast of townies and I was able to fly under the radar because vollkan was a confirmed innocent who had confidence in me being town, and pretty much all of the townies leaned on him as a crutch for scum-hunting. I realize he isn't a confirmed innocent here, but I do worry that having the cliff notes makes some townies lazy.

I am not trying to censor vollkan. He should post what he feels neccessary for the town. But he has already suggested that limiting his input in such a way may be better for the town. I am voicing my support for this suggestion.

[shaft.ed]

Shaft.ed defended Erg0's play as typical day one play. This is very bad.

I believe I made this statement quite a while ago. I am actually quite miff'ed about Erg0 and the other lurkers. And he has lurked to deadline in another game I am in with him (as well as the Fonz). Quite annoyed about it actually.

Anyway my scum list would be: Oman, CKD and the Fonz. I'm really not liking Oman's "sit back and watch" playstyle. He's lurked in plain site through the whole day, and I felt his answers to my questions as of late were a bit weak. I still don't like CKD's unvote. I think that was the single biggest scum tell of the day, but I still think it's restricted to him being scum with Shanba. His defense against Adel felt like typical townCKD to me, but I've never played with him as scum so I don't know how much deviation to expect. While lynching him may be suboptimal the Shanba tie-in could be worth it. The Fonz did a little bit early on, accused me of lurking in plain site (while I felt he was doing the same) and then dropped off the face of the earth). Don't like his play much today.

I'm also quite annoyed by the lurking in this game (Shanba, BT, Erg0, Fonz, and now Simenon). And as cicero said above I am a little concerned about Simenon's drop off as if cruising in to deadline. I've seen him active across site, but he's not posting in here when it comes crunch time. May consider Simenon if my top three are not available.


I haven't read vollkan's last three PBPA's yet. I'll get comment up on them later most likely.

[shaft.ed]

Why not lynch Shanba then, who is still - post exams - not contributing?

I really don't like associational scumtells on day one. They are double weak.

I'd rather lynch someone with a posting history. But I see your point. If one suspects a CKD/Shanba scum pair, Shanba would be less of a loss to the town if we're wrong about it.

[shaft.ed]

I'm not a fan of low information lynches.

I would like Shanba to be replaced. This is an invitational and he has four contentless posts. That's sad.

I'd also like to know where Erg0, the Fonz and Simenon are.

[shaft.ed]

Really Adel, dice tags?

[shaft.ed]

EBWOP: Typical day 1 lynches are less likely to be accurate than a random lynch would be. Compromise deadline lynches are even less likely to be accurate than a typical lynch would be. If we are going to have a lynch with very low informational utility, I think that we should at least make the lynch a gamble we stand a chance to win.

And dice tags fix this problem how? As Simenon already covered, there's a lot more to a Day1 lynch than accuracy. The informational value is the majority of its worth and throwing dice removes that entirely.

[shaft.ed]

Dude I put it in bold. You aren't pointing out anything new. A simple "I disagree with your second assumption" would do.

Assumption 2:

Any compromise lynch we reach, because of Guardian's deadline lynch rules and the pace of the game thus far, will be a lynch of very low informational value.

I dea was simply that if we aren't going to have an informational lynch, we may as well have a lynch that stands a respectible chance of netting scum.

OK I get it, sorry for not noticing. I still think any lynch has informational value more than "sure let's let lad luck decide."

[shaft.ed]

So you still support an Oman lynch-at-deadline over everyone else?

Assuming Shanba will not be replaced today (which I feel is a very safe assumption) why should he not be lynched today?

I seriously am not liking Oman's back and forth with me. But I did like Sim's point about scOman not having the balls for this gambit.

I've got to catch a bus now. But I'd prefer the Fonz as a luker lynch at this point.

[shaft.ed]

4: Okay. So, in 1 shaft.ed doesn't wagon because he has not been convinced. Here, he joins the Oman wagon without persuasion (actually, in response to a jokey post by me). It's odd that he is reluctant in the case of Cicero, but very willing in the case of Oman. I'd like shaft.ed to explain this himself, rather than give my own thoughts about various motivations.

This all ocurred on page 1. I am completely posting for my own enjoyment at this time of the game.

23: "So it doesn't bother you when a player's style changes 180 degrees from their norm?" The question itself is phrased in a manner that clearly presumes that being bothered is somehow the natural response. Again, shaft.ed attacks Adel for something that I really don't think can be construed as alignment-related.

I would argue that for Adel it is alignment related. My meta of her is based firmly on the fact that she is more conservative as scum than town. But as I stated repeatedly it is usually a more subtle difference. This was blazing, so I didn't know what to make of it. And reading back over my posts at that time, I do see that I was tunneled on Adel.

60: Doesn't think I am engaged and am Jitsu-centric. That's the cost of me not PBPAing.

I don't that lack of PBPA's is really the problem. It just feels like you aren't going after people as strongly as normal. But this could be due to the very conservative and lurky game we have going ATM.

Shaft.ed, why don't you think that CKD wanting to avoid being on a Shanbatown wagon is valid/likely?

I think there is less "limelight" the earlier you are on a wagon. He originated it, thus I don't think even if the wagon progressed to the point of Shanba geting mis-lynched (which is an unlikely extreme) people are going to be looking at CKD. They're going to be looking further down the wagon at the quick-voters and the L-1 or hammer. Also at anyone that had an invalid reason for being on the wagon. I just don't think someone originating a wagon with a valid reason should worry about pressure.

[shaft.ed]

The Fonz
0: Random vote Jitsu
1: Swaps to Adel

2: Nothing

3: Notes that voting Oman for BWing is stupid. Accepts that the Simenon behaviour is a slight town-tell. Ugh, reasoning is the same as Cicero's, that I've criticised already.
4: Votes shaft.ed for suggesting Oman is trying to move a baseless wagon. I don't see how this is actually scummy...

5: Nothing
6: Nothing
7: Nothing
8: Nothing
9: Nothing

10: Asks for a shaft.ed wagon

11: Nothing

12: Finds shaft.ed's querying Adel's playstyle to be scummy
13: Makes a good analysis of what shaft.ed is doing re adel: insinuating scumminess without attacking anything tangible.

Accuses shaft.ed of lurking in plain sight

, and echoing the lurker attacks.
14: Doesn't think Adel's play is odd.

15: Nothing
16: Nothing

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Needs to post more. I get no indications either way from Fonz. 27%

Bolding is mine. I'm curious why hypocrisy doesn't score more than 27.

[shaft.ed]

That having been said, CKD, if you are going to spend the last two days using a pity party defense coupled with a soft claim, you may as well claim.

Agreed, if you're going to claim what I think you're going to claim please do it faster so that we can find an alternate lynch candidate.

[shaft.ed]

Hey the Fonz made it back. Looking forward to your case against me.

[shaft.ed]

@Fonz - I forgot to check the V/LA thread. I'll need to wear that one.

Also forgot to check the VLA thread (thought I did actually).

I still don't like the early game play.

[shaft.ed]

if I dont claim, or if I do, the affect most likely will be the same...I wont see Day 2.

it is most protown for me to claim, vanilla townie.

I won't argue with you, but just wanted to point out if you're town and avoid the mislynch at least the scum will have to waste a NK attempt on you. I'm guessing you know that. Of course if your scum you could also attempt to out a power role at the very least with a fake claim.

I'm not really sure where to go here, but I still find CKD more likely scum than town, and would help lynch him at deadline. I need to read Fonz again considering I missed the VLA, but I'm not seeing much support for his lynch. I don't like Oman, but it's obvious he's not going to be possible today. And I agree with the suspicion cast on Adel re: dice tags. Should be noted if Adel is scum, it's likely her partners are not in the lurker pool, or at least no concentrated there.

[shaft.ed]

Votes Oman based on something Vollkan said.

What are you talking about this page 1 comment? Yes I'm quite obviously just following vollkan's logical coattails

Is that an Aussie thing?

No. I was under the impression that the desire to get rid of Oman was universal

Asks Simenon a (rather leading) question, but doesn't follow through on it...

You mean this on page 2, are you serious? Do you not understand random comical banter?

Vote: curiouskarmadog

.

A good OMGUS to get me started in the morning.

This is not a vote for cicero.

Why do you only point out Billy's vote? Do you secretly wish you could vote for Oman?

1) Oman doesn't need any excuse to bandwagon and 2) The bandwagon on Oman was pretty much baseless. Therefore, to accuse Oman of 'trying to shift' the wagon felt to me a bit off- he had no reason to try to shift it there, and it isn't like he's a newb panicking because he has a couple votes on him.

I've explained this to death. I don't know why it's being taken so seriously. It was a half joking comment that was checking for Oman's reaction.

I know Erg0 can be quiet early game, are Shanba and Billy generally like this?

Floating possibilities, seeing if anyone bites...

Or perhaps getting meta advice from the rest of the town?

The comment towards Oman about the bandwagon was primarily to gauge his reaction to it. If he had reacted overly defensive or incredibly longwinded about it I would have been worried. His reply was pretty much what I expected.

The result he expected apparently told him nothing.

Actually they didn't. The way he responded told me he was either scum paying attention or town.

He then asks me if a player's style deviating 180 from their norm is worrying- I deny the premise, since I didn't believe Adel's style was completely at odds with how she normally plays: also, it was not the act of voting Adel, but the appeal to consensus that i found scummy.

I've explained this also eleventy billion times. 1) I have a very firm meta of scum Adel being more conservative than town Adel. 2) Adel was playing incredibly conservative early game. 3) I had no idea what to make of this, and felt it incredibly strange that I was the only one bothered by it.

So, he's been talking all this time about the differences in Adel's playstyle, AND HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY THINK IT SCUMMY? I mean, really, what's the point of going on about something if you haven't decided whether or not it's a good lead or not? Again, kinda looks to me like he's pointing stuff out, and hoping that someone else will start a wagon on the basis of it.

See above.

Then votes CKD, 'Person C' behind Jitsu.

Yes I made absolutely no points against CKD of my own.

I've never once accused Oman of being scummy in this game. And your unvote was overly cautious thus suspicious.

And he left his vote on Oman how long, exactly?

When was Oman in danger of being lynched again? How did it matter?

Hedges...

If you're calling my quotes out for "hedging" you've got about 6 other people that should be on your "hedges" list.

I don't like how easily he drops his CKD vote.

I pointed out that logically he'd most likely have to be scum with someone else for his action to be scummy. I also wanted to use my vote to pressure Jitsu. It worked.

Oh, and backing off the 'lurker' accusations then falling back on 'well i don't like the early play' is simply delayed OMGUS. You didn't think it worthy of attack at the time, even when your vote was on someone you

I still think you were lurking in plain site when you accused me of it. See 541.

So to suggest, now, that you find what I did near the start scummy is...well, scummy.

I find the hypocrisy scummy.

[shaft.ed]

shafted, for the record..given a choice between me and Adel who would you chose and why?

I'd choose Adel. Some of the attacks she threw at you were flawed. Yet I still feel your counter to her was also a bit short-sited and your vote was really not backed up outside of OMGUS. The dice tags thing was very strange to me. In sum I think you're both looking a bit scummy to me, and (no offense Adel) I think if you're town you'd be more valuable.

[shaft.ed]

Well I'm going for a last ditch effort to lynch my suspect. Fonz has been reaching against me, casting suspicions that are hardly scummy and apply to almost half the players here, and being hypocritical. I'll certainly be around to move my vote. For those that are only interested in CKD vs Adel, consider my vote on Adel.

unvote vote: The Fonz

[shaft.ed]

I'm here

unvote, vote:CKD

[shaft.ed]

How is it obvious that a Vig/SK killed Adel?

Come on don't be daft. Do you you seriously think the mafia would have spent a NK on Adel after yesterday?

[shaft.ed]

Shaft.ed, why did you say you were going to vote Adel and then instead hammer CKD?

This has already been covered by vollkan and Kison below, but some action was required for a lynch. And I said I would

choose

Adel

over

CKD. That choice was not available at deadline with Shanba's vote being cast and CKD being at L-1. But thanks for taking me out of context.

[shaft.ed]

Votes Oman based on something Vollkan said.

What are you talking about this page 1 comment? Yes I'm quite obviously just following vollkan's logical coattails

Logical? Not so much. Coattails? Yup. Obviously being page one, it's not THAT significant: that does not mean entirely unworthy of comment.

Is that an Aussie thing?

No. I was under the impression that the desire to get rid of Oman was universal

Asks Simenon a (rather leading) question, but doesn't follow through on it...

You mean this on page 2, are you serious? Do you not understand random comical banter?

Didn't seem comical to me.

I've covered this already. I refer to attacking page 1 votes as reaching. You are thus reaching with this attack.

Vote: curiouskarmadog

.

A good OMGUS to get me started in the morning.

This is not a vote for cicero.

Why do you only point out Billy's vote? Do you secretly wish you could vote for Oman?

1) Oman doesn't need any excuse to bandwagon and 2) The bandwagon on Oman was pretty much baseless. Therefore, to accuse Oman of 'trying to shift' the wagon felt to me a bit off- he had no reason to try to shift it there, and it isn't like he's a newb panicking because he has a couple votes on him.

I've explained this to death. I don't know why it's being taken so seriously. It was a half joking comment that was checking for Oman's reaction.

I don't like how everything's supposedly a joke. You were wagonning Oman; the wagon was of a significant size. You said something that I didn't think made much sense.

Now we've progressed to page 2. Here I've already stated that it was a half joking post. It was a long shot to test Oman's reaction. I did not expect to get a read out of it and I didn't. But it was worth a try. Why are you so worried about a L-3 wagon in a game full of responsible people?

I know Erg0 can be quiet early game, are Shanba and Billy generally like this?

Floating possibilities, seeing if anyone bites...

Or perhaps getting meta advice from the rest of the town?

But more likely what I said.

No it's not more likely what you said. There were plenty of examples of other people asking for metas D1. Oman backed me up on this on your first accusation. Here you're taking a behavior that multiple people have exhibited and claiming its scummy because I did it.

The comment towards Oman about the bandwagon was primarily to gauge his reaction to it. If he had reacted overly defensive or incredibly longwinded about it I would have been worried. His reply was pretty much what I expected.

The result he expected apparently told him nothing.

Actually they didn't. The way he responded told me he was either scum paying attention or town.

So, it told you that he was either scum or town? How is that not 'nothing?' I mean, sure, if he'd made a reply that is out of character for Oman, that would have been noteworthy- but then that's true of any response to anything.

Last time I checked there were only scum and town alignments at play, that means it was a null tell and thus nothing. And yes that is true of any response to anything. But a) one doesn't get a response if one doesn't make a comment and b) some statements are more likely to elicit a scum response than others. Glad you agree with me on this one.

Then votes CKD, 'Person C' behind Jitsu.

Yes I made absolutely no points against CKD of my own.

You're correct, you didn't. You went, 'I agree with Jitsu, vote CKD.'

This is a bald faced lie. And note that I did not post between CKD's unvote and Jitsu's posting. How the hell am I supposed to make a "unique" point against CKD, get in my time machine and post before him?

I've never once accused Oman of being scummy in this game. And your unvote was overly cautious thus suspicious.

And he left his vote on Oman how long, exactly?

When was Oman in danger of being lynched again? How did it matter?

He was the leading wagon for a long time. Also, it's fairly obvious that if you're leaving your vote on someone you don't think is scum, it's not achieving anything. Which perfectly fits the LIPS-rather-than-actual-scumhunting hypothesis.

His wagon was purely random votes for most of the day. I didn't see anything that remarkably scummy prior to CKD's unvote. Who else was also on that Oman "wagon" with me? How much longer were they on said wagon than I was? Where is your outrage at their play? What about everyone else maintaining a "random vote?" From a quick glance I can see Erg0, Oman and vollkan all kept their random votes in place much longer than I.

Hedges...

If you're calling my quotes out for "hedging" you've got about 6 other people that should be on your "hedges" list.

Mud on your face defence. Other people doing something doesn't make it not scummy in the context of your play.

Again there are a large number of players doing this same thing, you have no problem with it. In addition scumFonz has handed townshaft.ed his hedgey ass in two games now. Both Heroes and Space Monkey mafia I was wishy washy as hell and you took advantage of it in Heroes by making me second guess my intuation. And in Space Monkey you used it to drive a mislynch on me. Again this is reaching and it's BS.

I don't like how easily he drops his CKD vote.

I pointed out that logically he'd most likely have to be scum with someone else for his action to be scummy. I also wanted to use my vote to pressure Jitsu. It worked.

You believe points had been made against CKD which hadn't been adequately defended. You kept on voting CKD whilst citing your concerns about Jitsu, but your vote was apparently swung by an incautious phrasing.

My points against CKD had been made. I also indicated that in order for him to be scum, in my mind, he would almost have to be paired with Shanba. Jitsu has only played two games both as town. If he is scum I think it more likely he would let out an unintentional slip like that.

Oh, and backing off the 'lurker' accusations then falling back on 'well i don't like the early play' is simply delayed OMGUS. You didn't think it worthy of attack at the time, even when your vote was on someone you

I still think you were lurking in plain site when you accused me of it. See 541.

You're still completely wrong.

No U

So to suggest, now, that you find what I did near the start scummy is...well, scummy.

I find the hypocrisy scummy.

I'm not hypocritical at all. And, again, it's less the OMGUS vote than the timing. If you were suspicious of me for making the argument at the time i made it, why didn't you go after me then?

You had pretty much disappeared from the thread. Also I wasn't sure how genuine your attacks were. I thought you might just be testing me for reactions. I've also seen townies make disingenuous attacks to try drawing out scum onto illogical bandwagons. If you were setting a trap I didn't want to mess with it. But your continued reaching attacks tell me you're either scum driving a mislynch, or an incredibly misguided townie. I very much suspect the prior.

vote: The Fonz

[shaft.ed]

What I find interesting is not so much the vote itself, but the fact that shaft.ed seemed like he engineered the situation at deadline with his token late vote on Fonz. I'm not sure what the Fonzvote was meant to achieve, other than possibly forcing me to make a vote.

Erg0 prior to my Fonz vote I was voting Oman. The Fonz vote made no difference to your action. Where you unhappy that "I forced you" to vote for CKD?

[shaft.ed]

I know admitting this is probably going to put my vote under more scrutiny than not, but when I posted that I hit submit instead of preview. I was checking the bold tags and was intending more comment. I didn't get my post up prior to Guardian locking the thread. But it was basically going to say how it was pretty much inevitable that CKD would be lynched. I might be away from thread, so in order to avoid a No Lynch I was hammering. I felt both CKD and Adel slightly scummy so they were better candidates than most.

It was just strange that, after saying you'd prefer to see Adel lynched, you put your vote on somebody who was way out of lynch range and created a situation where I would inevitably vote for CKD, thus removing the possibility of your ideal scenario coming to fruition.

I prefered Adel over CKD. Again I prefered the Fonz over both of them. I also posted that I would be in before deadline, and to consider my vote on Adel if it were between the two. I really don't like how you are pinning your vote for CKD on my actions.

[shaft.ed]

Erg0 I don't know how I could have made my choice any clearer in my post.

I'll certainly be around to move my vote. For those that are only interested in CKD vs Adel, consider my vote on Adel.

The vote count immediately before you voted was:

Vote Count 17

curiouskarmadog[5] (BillyTwilight, Adel, vollkan, Oman, Simenon)
Adel[2] (curiouskarmadog, cicero)
Oman[1] (Shanba)
Shanba[1] (Jitsu)
shaft.ed[1] (The Fonz)
The Fonz[1] (shaft.ed)


Not Voting[1] (Erg0)

Deadline:

Approximately 2.5 hours from this post.

What are you going to do differently if Adel is at 3 instead of 2 with 2.5 hours left? cicero was the only player to post in thread between your vote and mine and he was already voting Adel.

[shaft.ed]

Oh and Oman, Vollkan is seen as one of the smartest people on the website. yet he went for the CKD case. Why not him?

I didn't get a decidedly pro-town read from vollkan yesterday. I also think it's a bit odd that after rating Jitsu at 41% in his analysis yesterday he has yet to address him at all today.

[shaft.ed]

This is pretty gross... If you actually read the post where Jitsu wrote this, it's pretty clear that he's referring to exploiting the line of questioning to get a reaction. Shafted cut the rest of the post out. Why?

I cut out the rest of the post because I believed it to be a subliminal slip from an inexperienced scum. The vote was an attempt to fluster Jitsu and gauge his reaction. It was the only vote on him at the time and I doubt you can accuse me of trying to force a lynch out of a weak case. It was purely a stab at a reaction on a player that I think a) was playing guarded so I had very little to read and b) has never played as scum so might have made such a mistake.

[shaft.ed]

I didn't read it as a slip at all. I thought it was pretty clear what he meant.

How does your belief that it was a slip justify you taking what he said out of context?

I've explained this. Slips are not relevant to context. My intention was not to purposefully twist the meaning of his words, it was to point out the word choice itself. I personally have a much more negative and manipulative view of the word exploit. Apparently I am in the minority, as most players here do not think it odd that a townie would "exploit and opening."

[shaft.ed]

I'm not- why did you think Oman would be? That's my point

I didn't expect it to get a tell from him. I was just making the statement to generate a response in case it lead to a tell.

You, sir, are the liar

Thanks for quoting the 3 posts where I go back and forth with CKD spelling out why I felt his unvote scummy.

attempts to 'get reactions' that were never likely to do anything

How many early game attampts to get reactions actually amount to something? Everyone was playing incredibly conservative yesterday. I was trying to move the game forward.

[shaft.ed]

Oman I'm not really getting your cicero vote. Most of your case against him comes from the fringe of the random stage. I'm personally gettinga townie vibe from him. Do you have any reasons for your case or are you still basing your vote on the early wagon?

[shaft.ed]

Either are possible, I'll grant you that.

Don't forget both. People always seem to forget both.

[shaft.ed]

The only possibility I can think of for someone wanting to do that is if Shaft.ed is a third party role with some weird power or win condition, but that possibility is very unlikely, I think.

This seems like an odd thing to speculate on given the clear ruleset we are working with.

So it should have been reasonably ovbious that your vote would be the hammer. And you don't appear to contest that you knew it was the hammer.

I never contested knowing I was the hammer. Not sure where you got that idea from. Is it more scummy if it was a hammer?

"Even though this hammer is a townie move, I need to give some kind of reason"

If it's that obviously a protown play to explain your hammer, wouldn't you think mescum would have provided a reason with the hammer?

This, by itself, isn't quite worth a vote, as it is subjective and a pretty fine point, but I still find it a little suspicious. I will reread Fonz's case on Shaft.ed though.

Are you always this guarded with your votes? It feels very much like you want to test the waters on a reaching argument instead of just jumping in head first with your vote. It's not like I have a wagon on me or you have another suspect.

@Shaft.ed: In 556, you appeared to pretty much write off the possibility of a Fonz lynch. Yet, in 573, you change your mind and vote him when he had NO votes at that point. If you were honestly trying to get Fonz lynched, why didn't you present a real case? Did you really think that "Fonz has been reaching against me, casting suspicions that are hardly scummy and apply to almost half the players here, and being hypocritical." was going to get Fonz seven votes in 8 hours?

It was Fonz's 557 that made me think he was more likely scum. I should have voted him in my reply in 559. Thinking about the situation over the RL night, I felt the Fonz more likely scum than CKD or Adel. So I put the vote out there with the very clear disclaimer of where I stood on the CKD/Adel issue. Seeing as how both CKD and Adel flipped town, what point would there be in scumShaft.ed trying to derail a mislynch and have a possible No Lynch at deadline? I just wasn't very excited about lynching between CKD and Adel when I felt a better suspect existed.

[shaft.ed]

I have seen nothing scummier than cicero's change from posting a lot and being extremely defensive to hardly posting and not really comment on gme issues much (earlD1-Late D1) looks scummy scummy scummy.

Weird. I don't think one word of this is true.

Yeah I'm not really getting that from reading cicero either. I read over the cicero wagon yesterday and there really wasn't a lot of information in it, especially with Simenon now dead. I guess that's the only strike against cicero, but a fairly minor one considering Simenon seemed to have moved on about a third of the way through D1.

[shaft.ed]

Post 40: "Your bandwagon isn't right. I am town. And I suppose I could vote you for voting me with no reason, but the truth is being a cheeky bugger early in the game is probably a town tell. " This is what kicked it off for me. Cicero writes of someone as town early, something I like to do as scum. Not only that, he does it for a null tell, and does something I hate, states himself town. He continues in the subsequent posts, it just seems to be bad logic.
Post 47: "Be warned, however, that I think you thinking my opinion is scummy is in fact scummy so voting me will result in me voting you." This is terrible, obviously terrible.
Post 83: Cicero says Sim is scum several times but is still voting adel. The switches to Erg0 with this: "(like I dont have enough early enemies in the game, let's open up a WHOLE NEW FRONT!.) to draw attention to the fact that he is speaking only when spoken to (I call this my "Candyman" scumtell, and find it surprisingly effective) and, in responding, avoided taking a stand on the issues in play. Instead, he just posted fluff. " TO DRAW ATTENTION? You think you've found scum yet you're valiantly going off to draw attention to someone who isn't posting much?
Pops in 210 to dump on CKD. Seems like he only posted when he had enough ammunition to take someone out.

Thats my issues with cicero.

But you just sate "Late D-1" yet your entire list ends on post 210. And you have an error in 210 he jumped on Jitsu not CKD.

I'd say 83 is the only thing I saw fishy with cicero rereading his bandwagon. Him and Simenon were both accusing eachother somewhat strongly but voting someone else.

[shaft.ed]

Thats my point, he seems to just try to blend late D1

This is incorrect. Examples please if you're going to make such an assertion.

[shaft.ed]

Thats my point, he seems to just try to blend late D1

This is incorrect. Examples please if you're going to make such an assertion.

If I conceed will you not make me reread.

No

unvote: vote Oman

If your top suspect is nothing but lip service, can you deny that you've just been going through the motions? I'll remove if you have something resembling a case against cicero.

[shaft.ed]

Jitsu if you want a clear example of me hitting preview instead of submit please view my death via post restriction violation in iPick. I make this mistake not often but often enough.

I'll ask you again. If you clearly thought that Fonz was more likely scum, why didn't you attempt to make some kind of case to convince people to go your way? You say you wanted to try to get your suspect lynched, but your actions weren't showing that. I know there wasn't a LOT of time left in D1, but you could have tried posting something more than that one sentence to try to build up steam on the Fonzwagon.

My back and forth with the Fonz was on the same page as the vote. It should have been on the top of everyone's mind and easily visible.

[shaft.ed]

EBWOP: I thank you, Jitsu, for giving me time.

Suck up

[shaft.ed]

So you're basically saying he got less long winded as the day went on? That's a scum tell?

[shaft.ed]

A change in behaviour, from being under attack and posting with ferocity and surity to his offence when the offence is, as I read it, not terribly strong is a scumtell.

Doesn't everyon post more when they are bein forcibly questioned? Did you think CKD scummy because he posted more when he was under attack?

not a terribly strong scum tell = "scummy, scummy, scummy"? Isn't that what you said?

[shaft.ed]

A change in behaviour, from being under attack and posting with ferocity and surity to his offence when the offence is, as I read it, not terribly strong is a scumtell.

Doesn't everyon post more when they are bein forcibly questioned? Did you think CKD scummy because he posted more when he was under attack?

not a terribly strong scum tell = "scummy, scummy, scummy"? Isn't that what you said?

Firstly, I didn't say it was a "not terribly strong scum tell" you might want to review that.

Yes I certainly did read that wrong.

[shaft.ed]

Come on guys. This is an invitational. Why of all games is this turning into a lurkfest?

So Fonz, nothing to comment on then?

[shaft.ed]

I agree with cicero's comments on social ranking. It does feel that certain players (vollkan in particular) are garnering less of a microscope. And I do expect that Jitsu, BT, and Oman may be "easier lynches" so to speak (I know that will annoy the Fonz).

I feel that excuse is kind of impossible to counter. While it certainly could be true, from my own perspective I have a hard time buying that explanation as Jitsu's meaning behind his 'exploit' post was painfully obvious

I really don't know how else to explain this. I personally think exploit to have a very negative connotation. Apparently that is fairly unique to myself as vollkan seems to be the only player that found my response reasonable. I'll simply restate it's obvious I wasn't going to push a lynch with that one comment. It felt like an opening that I could exploit to test an untested and unfamiliar player.

The other thing about Shafted that I don't get is his The Fonz vote from yesterday. Shafted, when did you decide that you would rather The Fonz be lynched than one of Adel or CKD? Why? And did you truly believe you could pull it off with the short time you had between when you voted and when the deadline was going to land? If the answer is no, then why did you vote for The Fonz?

I felt the Fonz likely scum after his weak attack on me. At the time of my vote I felt about a 10% chance of getting him lynched. It seemed worth the try.

[shaft.ed]

Hmmm... I was kind of waiting on a response from shaft.ed that never came. He seems to have wandered off to attack Oman instead. I'm not particularly satisfied with his response to my previous questioning.

Vote: shaft.ed

Erg0 I answered most all of you questions in detail. The only one I noticed unanswered was if I felt the Fonz lynch was more likely than Adel. Obviously Adel was more likely.

And by "waiting for my response" was that what kept you from the thread?
Do you feel my attacks on Oman were unwarranted then, because that seems to be what you're implying?

[shaft.ed]

Let me try a different angle. Why did you want to check your vote tags in the middle of your post, before typing the reason for your vote that you said you meant to include?

I always do that for almost every post. I frequently hit preview in order to come up with proper wording for my thoughts. On average I preview a post about 3-4 times before posting it. If I'm struggling with proper wording then I'll also just hit the preview button, especially after adding some tags. That's why I showed the iPick example I had added the quote tags and was checking them. I don't know why you're saying you believe it was a mistake but you don't believe my reason. What other mistake are you trying to imply?

I would have expected a bit more effort in constructing a case.

Fonz had very minimal Day 1 posting outside of that very weak attack. Most everything else was either very early in the day or "let's lynch shaft.ed." It doesn't take much space to summarize that.

In regards to the odds of the futility of the attempt I already stated I didn't expect more than a 10% chance of my push to be successful. But I wanted to give it a shot based on my very recent suspicions of him.

Following up with that, is the Fonz still your top suspect? If you really think he's that scummy, why don't you summarize your case against him and cite your evidence. Cicero already asked Fonz to summarize his case on you, so I'd like to hear your side.

He's still at the top of my list. The case is pretty much the same. Constant pushing of a very weak case against me. Painting my actions as scummy when they are common to many players in the game. Lurking, in and out of plain site. Tunneling on me while seemingly ignoring the rest of the players in the game. I'll try getting up a more detailed analysis later, but he doesn't have a lot to work with.

[shaft.ed]

When he said that he knew that admitting it would look suspicious and put the vote under more scrutiny, it sounded to me like he was trying to score a townie point. I got the impression that he had a bit of a guilty conscience and was trying to cover up something, but I couldn't figure out what it was, so I decided to probe to try to find out, though I still didn't know what I was looking for.

OK so now you're saying you don't believe it was a mistake. Would you like to take a position on this at some point in time?

Actually, as I typed that last sentence, something just occurred to me -- maybe I had it backwards from the beginning. Maybe Shaft.ed didn't realize he had hammered until it was too late and covered that up.

Cover what up? If I didn't realize I was hammering what's the big deal?

[shaft.ed]

Jitsu, I still don't really get what your after. You're picking apart very minor pieces of what I say, and then stating you don't find them scummy or townie even though you accuse me of lying. It's like your just hanging ideas out there hoping someone will grab onto them and run with it for you. I also don't really remember you "tunneling on cicero" day 1 as I really don't remember you putting that much weight behind any suspects.

He doesn't spam the thread like Oman

May be nit-picky but Oman's post count is 77, mine's 112.

Sorry I haven't been posting much the last week or so. Getting a bit burned out of mafia and the slow pace of this game isn't helping. I'd like to get a reread in a put up some more content, but I don't think I'll have time for anything major until Monday at the earliest.

[shaft.ed]

It looks to me like Jitsu has decided he thinks shaft.ed is a good lynch candidate, and has adapted the facts to fit the theory. Suspicious as i think shaft.ed is, I don't see how him knowing/not knowing he hammered actually matters, and I'm not sure i like the evolution of Jitsu's argument there.

Oddly enough I agree with the Fonz here . Do you find Erg0's arguments to fall into the same category? I see Erg0 is back to his theory that I was trying to "make him" vote, and that I was avoiding being on a townie lynch wagon. I don't see either of these points as valid.

I'm hoping to get a bit of rereading in this afternoon to offer up some new content.

[shaft.ed]

Secondly, I'm not a big believer in a vig being a huge help to town anyway. If we do have a vig, I'd much prefer they avoid making kills at night.

Do you think the killing of Adel was a bad play from a vig's perspective?

Oh, and I have an interesting proposition that I might ask the rest of you about tomorrow.

Yes you can sleep with my wife for a million dollars.
Sorry guys I just wanted dibs.

[shaft.ed]

Right now I'm about equally suspicious of Jitsu and The Fonz with vollkan and Oman being my secondary suspects.

I'm a bit worried I've be tunneling on The Fonz so I'd like to get that reread in.

I think Jitsu's points about BT's incorrect views towards the vig are correct, but that seems much more of a theory discussion. I'm not reading BT as all that scummy.

[shaft.ed]

Ugh. Try again:

Again, I don't think that he was specifically trying to force me to vote

- I just think that his Fonz vote was completely ineffectual at that point. If I had to guess the reason, he may have been hoping to avoid being on a townie wagon at the end of the day - if two people had voted for CKD in the meantime then he wouldn't have had to do anything at the end of the day.

I see Erg0 is back to his theory that I was trying to "make him" vote

, and that I was avoiding being on a townie lynch wagon. I don't see either of these points as valid.

See if you can spot the difference.

God I'm playing terribly in this game

shaft.ed: I'm interested in hearing more about the second point - what was the reason for your last minute Fonz vote? Did you realistically expect a Fonz wagon to form in the last 24 hours of the day?

I've already stated I expected about a 10% chance of pushing a Fonz lynch in that short amount of time. I knew it was likely futile, but I was EXTREMELY clear where my vote between CKD and Adel fell if there was a choice between the two. I don't know how many more times I am going to have to say this. I really feel like people are just asking me the same questions over and over again, which is making me look defensive.

Furthermore, for those that have me listed in their top three I'd really like to know why. The Fonz put up a very hollow case against me yesterday, which I feel I amply shot down, and I've seen very little in the form of new accusations today.

[shaft.ed]

Shaft.ed again uses the explanation of trying to gauge Oman's reaction. I could make votes that I cannot follow up with a good explanation all day with a no-limit credit card, too.

The vote was on page 1 and was clearly random. The "comment" was on page two, was partially a joke and was not in anyway related to the vote. Have you ever used this logic to attack a page 1 vote before? In fact have you ever used any logic to attack a page 1 vote before?

[shaft.ed]

My top 3 has been stated already. I stand by them.

I'm really unhappy with the way Oman has been playing as of late. Is it really that hard to type out three names? And why are you still standing by your completely deconstructed cicero "case"?

[shaft.ed]

You looked like you were trying to blend in. You made a delayed omgus vote, at deadline when it was clearly going to do little good. Yeah, that's a fine case.

I really don't see how you say I was trying to blend in.

I think Shaft.ed and Fonz should look past each other, imho.

I should get my reread in today. I won't do it in isolation if that matters.

[shaft.ed]

Shooting for the middle of the pack. Surprisingly reliable, though damn hard to express.

I've already shot this idea down by the metric you proposed (post counts). Would you care to posit another?

I really feel like you just threw the kitchen sink at me and looked to see if anything would stick. I already adressed every tangible point you had against me including ridiculous accusations about page 1 and 2 random votes. All you have left are subjective points that I have already shown to be weak.

[shaft.ed]

Bah I don't think I'm going to be able to finish this. Also not sure if this is the most concise way to summarize my points as I've already argued against vollkan doing it earlier, but since I have the bullets I'll put them out there.

The main take away I got from reading the early game is that while it transitioned from random to serious play, vollkan was incredibly non-participatory in the actual game and pretty much only talked about game theory. I really didn't read a meaty post through the whole stretch that I read.

Reread trhough post 175:

Fonz:

106) States that if cicero's wagon had gotten sizeable he would have voted into it since he had a premonition cicero was scum. Four votes on page 4 seems rather sizeable.

What was the premonition btw

?
107) votes shaft.ed for my Oman shifting the wagon to cicero comment.
142) Calls for people to wagon me since a "couple of you seem to have made comments in that direction..." Odd since I only noticed Erg0 doing such.
172) Quotes my earlier post about Adel and lurkers and calls for my immediate lynch.

Erg0:

123) Asks question first raised by Fonz about my "Oman wagon shifting" comment. (I point out it was a joke in my next post).

cicero:

40) First somewhat meaningful post saying Simenon's cicero wagon is a likely town tell (he was right).
47) cicero explains its a weak town tell as it is frivilous play.
48) votes Adel for jumping on his wagon without explanation.
59) cicero shows some annoyance for his random wagon.
83) very long post about his wagon. Validly counters a few points. But paints Simenon in a scummish hue based on wiggle room. I'm a bit surprised that he wouldn't vote Simenon after these statements, maybe afraid of looking OMGUSy? Ends with an Erg0 vote citing Erg0's posts consisting mainly of fluff while others have started to actually contribute. Seems valid for early game, but find the non Simenon vote a little strange.
--Note that I find it doubly strange that Simenon replies to cicero by upping the accusations at cicero and then votes into cicero's call for an Erg0 wagon. Seems to weaken previous point against cicero for not voting Simenon.

Oman:

41) asks Sim if he has a reason for the cicero wagon. Sim replies with apparent joke in 43 but Sim quotes cicero's "town tell" post.
44) Oman brings up the town tell point and asks cicero to clarify.
49) votes cicero citing his constant claim of being a townie (for the record I meta'd cicero and he does in fact proclaim towniness more as town than scum. don't know why). Note that Simenon also finds cicero's self-claim of town tell to be scummy.

Billy Twilight:

139) votes Simenon based on his cicero back off. Notes cicero approached his bandwagon both flippantly and logically (I don't think that strange really seeing it was a random wagon for the most part).

Jitsu:

166) First big contributive post. A lot of it is commenting on people commenting about game theory. Points out that he finds cicero's Adel vote odd. Also points out Simenon's abandonmet of the cicero wagon and switch to Erg0. Prods about my previous Oman comments. After all this analysis he drops a vote on Shanba. Somone with one game related post and barely included in his long analysis. Seems weird but he declares it a pressure vote.

vollkan:

Almost nothing game related. Nearly every post is game theory. Very strange for him to have so little relevant content.

In regards to my own play. I do agree that I had a lot of weird focus on Adel. I think it should be noted it took me commenting on it three times in order for her to even chime in about. That made me feel she was trying to avoid the topic.

[shaft.ed]

Shooting for the middle of the pack. Surprisingly reliable, though damn hard to express.

I've already shot this idea down by the metric you proposed (post counts). Would you care to

I did not suggest post counts as a metric by which to judge your middlingness; that's simply dishonest. You may recall me harping on at you from the very beginning for your cautious, consensual style, your asking of other people to provide cases for you; nothing you have done since has done anything to sway me. (Delayed omgus is also fairly reliable, btw).

My case isn't weak at all, you're scum, and you're going to die.

I interpreted this to mean posting frequency

He doesn't spam the thread like Oman, or lurk like Billy- basically, i think it all adds up to trying not to attract too much attention, whilst giving the appearance of contribution.

Fonz do you have any recently completed smaller games as scum I could read?

[shaft.ed]

vollkan why are you much more inactive here than in your other games?

[shaft.ed]

I actually had a dream that Cicero was scum in this game...

That's actually kinda creepy. Dreaming about cicero and all.

Anyway I did some rereading of vollkan after yesterday and I'm not liking his play much. The first half or so of yesterday he mostly skirts around issues making theory commentary. He does eventually engage Jitsu. Then towards the end of the day he gives his PBP's but still very little interaction with the events that are unraveling. Also today he's coasted most of the time and is quite absent as the deadline nears, while still contributing on site. This also matches up with vollkanscum in iPick where his posting lapses as deadline lynches approach, and is opposite of vollkantown who generally ramps up contributions as deadlines approach.

Not a big fan of Jitsu either. I have a really hard time just rereading him as his verbose style/attention to minutea and my wary attention span do not mix well. I agree moreso on the waffling accusations people were accusing him of Day 1 after looking back. He seems to just comment without drawing conclusions and gets a bit defensives when you try to figure out what conclusions he was drawing. Also not really liking his soft attack on me while I was/am picking up a wagon today. However, I do not really see the "look Billy Twilight!" argument that people are making against him. He's been rather persistent with his accusations towards BT ever since the vig comments from what I can tell.

Also not liking Oman. Yesterday he hung back quite a lot. Today he's continued the silly "case" against cicero that he's still grasping onto even though he's admitted to having no evidence. His play is just so glaringly weird I don't know what to make of it, but the simplest explanations I can surmise are scummy.

Any of these three I'd be happy lynching at this point.

Also, I did some extensive meta'ing of the Fonz and I am inclined to believe he is town at this point. Though I still think he is running a crap case against me.

I haven't gotten to Erg0 yet. I've found cicero to be townish most of the game, also getting a town leaning read of BT. Not much of any read on Kison, though I'm probably not the person to ask as he's seriously screwed my scumdar on a couple occasions.

[shaft.ed]

Yeah? And how would you compare this to Vollkan in Uprising, where he was as ferocious as he was scum?

Sorry I've blotted out Uprising Mafia from my memory. It was quite traumatic.

You have a point, it may just be that vollkan's interest in mafia is waning, and not that this is typical scum play for him.

[shaft.ed]

EBWOP: But waning interest isn't likely true as he's still posting across site. I've played with vollkantown twice and never seen him this "out" of a game, though that was admittedly a while back.

[shaft.ed]

vollkan why do you have yet to vote Jitsu?

[shaft.ed]

I actually find shaft.ed's sudden turn on me as soon as the possibility of a vollkan lynch was suggested pretty scummy, so I think that's going to be my final answer.

I've been suspicious of vollkan going back to yesterday. You have very little if any interactions so I see no reason that your alignments should be correlated. Please reread my postings.

[shaft.ed]

Also, I did some extensive meta'ing of the Fonz and I am inclined to believe he is town at this point. Though I still think he is running a crap case against me.

When did you do this extensive meta work? In the last five hours since your previous post?

More importantly, why are you inclined to believe Fonz is town at this point? What did you find in your meta that led you to this conclusion? Surely to cause such a dramatic turnaround you must have seen something compelling that convinced you of his innocence. I'd like to know what that was.

I prefer to hang on to meta bits that I find like this for future private use, but it appears that I am likely to have to reveal this for the purposes of the game as I don't expect people to blindly trust the pattern I noticed. I recalled from Space Monkey Mafia 2 that Fonz basically tunneled on Kison (his scum partner) the entire game, but I didn't really remember him doing that in Heroes Smalltown when he was also scum. I skimmed through about 10+ games in his history to see if he was scum and if he was making tunneled cases and how his targets correlated with his alignment. Basically I noticed that as scum he only tunneled when busing a partner, and he also tunneled as town. I could not find an instance of the Fonz tunneling a townie as scum in his game history.

I know some of you view meta arguments as crap, but I am a pretty firm believer in meta reads especially in regards to attack/voting patterns. Since I'm town and thus Fonz cannot bus me, I am left to believe that Fonz is town.

Also rereading my early game play, I do think some of his points on me were valid. I was making statements towards Adel that could be seen as testing the waters. I still think his "aiming for the middle" argument is crap. But the convictions of his case yesterday were very strong for how weak his case was. And he was clearly reaching by sighting page one vote patterns and comments. It really felt to me he was trying to set me up for a lynch, especially after CKD and Adel both flipped town.

[shaft.ed]

mod can we get a vollkan prod please.

[shaft.ed]

as I'm VLA over the weekends I won't put my vote on vollkan ATM. Will be around for Monday deadline.

Erg0's counter to cicero is fairly solid.

I don't like how Oman continues to coast.

[shaft.ed]

I'll take a look at vollkan, I just feel like my cases are dwindling away and I need to find scum!

What cases?

[shaft.ed]

Just looking at early posts of mine: Post 6 I make an argument against Cicero's point on Simenon being a silly bugger.

Not true.

It depends on the individual. Some people will play scum by hiding in the shadows and hoping not to be noticed. Others will play hard and aggressive in order to "hide in the open". Arguing that scum will hide in the shadows only makes it more rational for scum to play hard and aggressive.

I like how you note that scum will hide in the shadows "UNLESS they plan to confound expectations", as though planning to confound expectations is somehow something that scum don't ordinarily do. Rational scum will seek to maximise their own survival and, as a result, will seek to confound expectations if they can do so.

This is very much worded as theory discussion. But I will give you it is related to what cicero had pointed out.

Post 8 I try questioning Erg0 on the need for a screw-up.

which you later indicated was a joke

What this game really needs is for somebody to do something stupid. That usually gets things rolling.

Interesting. You apparently have a clear idea about what "needs" to be done, but you yourself aren't actually prepared to do it? Any reason why?

Was this a joke?

It was puffed-up inquisition-style.

Post 10, I take the view that Adel being conservative is not a tell. Post 11, I argue against you on Adel....

This is about were any sign of content begins but is it still mostly comments on "low lying fruit."

namely that I was still under the Vollkan-effect-averting style of posting that I didn't like playing with.

You later indicated that you were avoiding the "vollkan-effect" by trying to avoid PBP's, but now this stretches into inquisitions?

Anyway I did some rereading of vollkan after yesterday and I'm not liking his play much. The first half or so of yesterday he mostly skirts around issues making theory commentary.

This is not true. I had theory, and I had content. Nothing was meaty, but your dismissiveness is unwarranted.

I do not think it was that dismissive. The first point where you reach contribution is around 11 days into the game four short of half of day 1.

Sorry? I don't see your point here. Obviously, PBPs are focussed on the past. I don't see why you see that as somehow being a point against me. In the end, I did address the recent posts as relevant in my PBPs.

I'm pointing out the lack of agression that I'm used to townvollkan and not scumvollkan displaying.

Have a look at California Trilogy. I was lynched D4 after inactivity.

I'll have a read. That is what I'm worried about. I know my posting style can ebb and flow a bit, but the meta I have from our games together is pretty decent. However, you're also attributing your lackluster effort to avoiding the vollkan-effect.

Interesting that you drop a vote on Jitsu after I prod you about it, though your recent points have been against BT.

[shaft.ed]

I think Shaft.ed has been in a largely defensive, opportunistic mode most of the game, not taking the initiative to attack, but has made a lot of counterattacks when pushed by others

I would very much disagree with this. I likely look defensive because I've been the primary target of about half the game for most of today.

2. Everyone agrees to lynch BT instead if he doesn't show up to break the deadlock.

Why is BT the default no vollkan lynch? It seems a Jitsu lynch has more support.

unvote

as my Oman vote is doing nothing but blocking a lynch at this point.

[shaft.ed]

unvote

as my Oman vote is doing nothing but blocking a lynch at this point.

Your unvote has another effect, which you may or may not be aware of.

Now there are only 7 votes cast instead of 8, which means Vollkan, who now has 4 votes, will be lynched if nothing changes.

Don't worry I will hammer vollkan before deadline. I am not playing coy with avoiding responsibility. I am awaiting his claim.

[shaft.ed]

So we're about 1 hr from deadline then?

[shaft.ed]

I don't think vollkan is making it.

Jitsu doesn't seem around for a claim either if push came to shove.

[shaft.ed]

Thinking about the situation I'm not going to hammer just to allow more time for a claim. Consider my vote on vollkan right now if you want to be technical about it.

[shaft.ed]

I think you mean suspense.

[shaft.ed]

why the long face?

[shaft.ed]

you're supposed to post that when you drop a hammer vote. I call shenanigans!

[shaft.ed]

Hurry up and vote!!!

he's lynched either way.

[shaft.ed]

i want to read Fonz's joke but I'm worried vollkan may log in.

[shaft.ed]

Yeah sorry for not reading my own role PM properly, that didn't help much. I though NK/investigation immune GF was overpowered.

I'm still amazed we weren't able to hit any power roles with how many townies we took out.

I really think my play in this game was pretty awful. It was my first time as GF and so I was playing to draw the cop investigation, which worked but I also drew the SK kill. I'm still amazed that I was able to get The Fonz to flip on his opinion of me from a meta (and mad I had to waste it), and also amazed I was able to get vollkan lynched so easily.

Also Jitsu, why not claim a power role? A cop and two masons is pretty strong, so it was unlikely The Fonz had one. In order for Erg0 and Billy to be lying that only left the town with one power role once Fonz claimed vanilla.

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Also I think (myself at least) scum rested on a laurels too much and assumed we could push lurker lynches out to just coast through this thing until it blew up in our faces thanks to Oman's heroics for the town.

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Can endgamers get invited to the Peanut Gallery thread, and can we open up the scum thread so I can see the crazed reaction to my death?

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Why would I lie about that?

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Yeah, I agree re: enjoying the game and having a lot of fun with my scumteam. I've never even read a Jitsu game before and was very happy he was on my side. And Kison is always a blast to play with. I was actually a bit sad that CKD and Adel died so early and we offed Simenon at night. Also I've now played a multitude of games with both Adel and The Fonz and we've never shared alignment (and I've never beaten The Fonz) that's just not right.

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I'm still really surprised you tried to discredit the masons, and not me and cicero. Cicero claimed cop when next in line to be lynched, and claimed an investigation of a corpse. To my mind, that was a LOT easier to paint in a scummy light than claimed day masons. I know there was only the tiniest sliver of doubt in my mind, and that was completely dispelled by Kison's claim.

Yeah I thought that might have been Jitsu's angle since he was making it look like he wanted to claim on the day of the Oman lynch. I thought he might be setting up a cicero counter-claim, which to me would have been a really ingenious way to try salvaging the game.

Also Fonz, thanks for calling me on the delayed OMGUS. I noticed after you pointed it out that I had done that before as scum. So I've removed a tell from my scum game and have a new weapon to hunt with.

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I guess we don't get access to the scumchat? I really wanted to see the reaction to the NKimmune godfather dying.

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Bah it seems me not being able to read my role PM correctly swayed my scum team away from the optimal end game play of killing a mason and countering-claiming cicero. Sorry about that guys.

Also I loved this:

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A quick note here- it just goes to show how valuable it can be, if towns can manage to avoid claiming prematurely. I think a single extra claim in this game could well have swung it hard in the scum's favour.

No question. The claims all happened really at the optimal time for the town, and I think that was a significant factor in the town win. You holding back on your claim was pure genius also. I don't like to play Monday-morning quarterback, but I'd like to think I would have played differently had some of the claims come earlier (especially yours).

This is true. The Masons especially did a superb job of hanging around until endgame where their confirmed innocence would be quite powerful.

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does anyone feel like nominating The Fonz or someone else for a scummy based off of this game?

I really don't think anyone deserves a scummy from this game. If anyone it should be the mason pairing for looking scummy/non-threatening enough to avoid NK but townie enough to avoid ever being considered for lynch.

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For me it was because I was scum and I felt that letting the game drag was helping my cause, which it was if not for that meddling serial killer and his dog.

And Erg0, I think I had the wrong impression of your playstyle from House. After day 1 a lot of people were ganging up on you in that game.

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Oman weaker player, higher probability power role.

Weaker?.

weaker is not an insult in an allstar game. I'd probably put myself at the bottom of the roster as well. But I was right that you had a non-vanilla role, and should have pushed for your lynch over vollkan, but I didn't want to make waves.

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I agree with the above, Guardian is awesomesox.

And I was very glad I didn't have to claim Day 1. I was thinking I'd have to name claim and would have been insta-lynched.

Agree re: BM was a bit surprised that he was not here. I guess one of us must be his alt?

Also I'm Number 1 baby!!