Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[acryon]

Hello friends! This is my first game in almost 4 years... so please be gentle with me

VOTE: GuiltyLion

I think I still have some traumatic memories from playing with scum!you..

-Lilith (the smarter head)

This is my first game in a couple years so I request the same gentleness.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Maybe if they were InnocentLion, but....

[acryon]

This is my first game in a couple years so

I request the same gentleness

.

And you shall receive it!

Day vig: acryon

I suppose gentleness is relative...

@mod i am regularly vla on fridays and saturday

Thanks for the reminder.

@Mod I am V/LA on Saturdays and Sundays

[acryon]

I thought you weren't gonna RVS?

-Smart

I have the feeling this isn't random.
Just a feeling.

Is it actually just a feeling?

I’d like to hear your thoughts on nom too.

I don't like the 2 naked votes then a "pagetop"

I would like to see them get more involved in the game

Literally just completed page 1 and you had an issue with someone's involvement in the game already?

howdy i have mechanical reasons to wish to be on all wagons

VOTE: BBMolla

This is pinging me

-Smarter

Co-sign.

[acryon]

Literally just completed page 1 and you had an issue with someone's involvement in the game already?

uhh... yeah

Since it sounds like you have experience with her, do those early posts ping you for meta reasons?

[acryon]

Since it sounds like you have experience with her, do those early posts ping you for meta reasons?

Nope. I'm terrible with meta so I generally disregard it

Me too.

[acryon]

i think that auro's present gimmick comes from town more often than not

Same.

what did you find scummy about it?

extremely tense opening, you open with an extremely serious question that confronts someone about a vote on page one without any kind of sort of fluffposting and from what I know about your meta this tends to go on the scumpile

How many games have you played where skitter was scum?

this post feels like pretend scumhunting to me!

VOTE: arcyon

also gut early reads skitter town, smart hydra town, karnage town. I like Auro's posts so far too but I'm a lil too paranoid there to also give an early townread

I think calling what I'm doing "scumhunting" at all would be an overstatement. I'm just asking some friendly questions. My scumhunting is a bit rusty, but we'll get there.

I like keeping my vote on you though frankly.

[acryon]

VOTE: arcyon
red flags all over that post above

Oof first game back and this is what I get?

Also you didn't answer my question.

[acryon]

Plenty of games, skitter and I play regularly in all sorts of configurations.
Why the question?

"from what I know about your meta this tends to go on the scumpile" is a claim that requires a solid amount of experience to throw out. Just wanted to make sure that was the case. And when he shot back, you kind of fluffed in response. Just interesting.

[acryon]

Responding to some things overnight first and then I'll have some other thoughts.

I like keeping my vote on you though frankly.

what don't you like about gl here?

I think trying to call someone out for "fake scumhunting" with my extremely minimal body of work seemed disingenuous.

Just wanted to make sure that was the case. And when he shot back, you kind of fluffed in response.

if it wasn't the case wouldn't i have called her out on that claim?
not sure where you're seeing fluffing ?

Maybe, maybe you wouldn't want to get into it. I was more interested in seeing her backup that claim. Admittedly I wanted to ask that question a bit earlier but got tied up and came back later to ask it (where it was maybe less releveant).

Re: Fluffing -- She went from questioning you to fluffing you here (ironically while talking about fluffing).

(also i'm a she btw)

Sorry about that. Won't make the mistake again!

so like i have no idea why you'd want to be doing that as town
but like i can see some benefits to doing that as scum

pedit that's the flippant part

This and the few posts before it feel a bit like playing dumb for someone with so much experience.

Yeah this is pretty much the biggest redflag imo, this is like trying to defend yourself in the worst way possible? I don't know.

Exactly. Why would you try to defend yourself in the worst way possible?

-Smart

Now my intelligence is going to be insulted if nomnom keeps her vote on me.

I just wished he were more indignant. I accused him! Why would he be so willing to acknowledge that they were weak questions but then also suggest that I'm a good vote because I pushed him on it, it also feels like there's dissonance there.

Nothing to be indignant about. I think you're wrong and could possibly have bad intentions, but most people are wrong right now (including me).

I'll let the acryon thing play out a little more. I find the name slightly disturbing as a misspelling of crayon.

This was my first WoW name. I thought it sounded like a cool fantasy name, but quickly realized I should've spelled it differently when everyone in my guild called me crayon...

I think calling what I'm doing "scumhunting" at all would be an overstatement. I'm just asking some friendly questions. My scumhunting is a bit rusty, but we'll get there.

I like keeping my vote on you though frankly.

@GuiltyLion: Is it implied anywhere in his posts that he found you a good vote because you pushed him on it? The quoted part does not imply that, for me. Perhaps I missed it.
Do you think he should have unvoted you because he acknowledged your attack had some merit to it?

No--see answer to Skitter up top.

[acryon]

A few thoughts.

I like Eve.

I mostly liked skitter until that back and forth with Eve. Just feels really odd.

Auro’s thought process feels town.

142 from GuiltyLion doesn’t feel great. I’m always wary of people trying to paint a big picture based on a post or two early on. RVS stage is far from useless, but it typically doesn’t lead to these kinds of revelations. I don’t love voting someone whose voting me because of the drama, but I’m keeping my vote here.

Agree with nomnom on second part of 149.

p.edit:

Re: Fluffing -- She went from questioning you to fluffing you here (ironically while talking about fluffing).

It doesn’t seem like the link is going to a post, what’s the post # for this

- Smarter

Dang. Apparently forgot how to do that right. 85

[acryon]

Also I'm basically only available to play during the day on weekdays, so you'll likely see some stretches of silence from me, but I'll always try to make sure I cover what I missed when I am back.

[acryon]

So it’s a lot harder than I thought it would be to write up posts for this game while on work calls...

@acryon, 170 feels like attempting to show that you’re giving content and then filling in the spaces with insubstantial.... stuff. Even the content parts are insubstantial, like there’s no attempt to gather more info for reads. Re: The part with GL you don’t even seem to be pushing GL more, which I would expect if you were town. The rest of it seems like posting just to look like you’re doing stuff.

I'm not one to rush a game. One because I think you make more mistakes, and two because my time is limited so I prefer to build a case over time than try to go full-bore early Day 1.

My main question is:

how do you feel about nom? She seems to be scumreading you for similar reasons to GL, but why haven’t you addressed that and are focusing on GL’s vote? What is your nom read? Secondarily, why have you not pushed GL further? Or for that matter, skitter?

Nom is likely town. She was pinged by that one post from me, which I can completely see coming from town. As I mentioned before, being wrong doesn't make someone scum. There's little need for me to address it because it feels like a (wrong) gutread. See my point on GL and skitter above. I'm not the type to tunnel on people, especially early on. In my experience, that tends to lead to mistakes.

Skitter I did make comments on twice now, but ultimately my feelings are a gutread on their posts being disingenuous--not much to push on there since my feeling =/= an argument.

Overall I feel like you are not attempting to engage others but more waiting for them to engage you. If you’re town, I would expect/like to see more pushing and questioning.

This isn't far off because of what I said before. The amount of time I can dedicate to the game dictates the way I play. I'm going to be much more of an observer at this stage than the one putting together a big case (that's probably super misguided) based on limited interaction. You'll likely see more of that from me later on, but I don't think it's helpful for me to conjure up a case from thin air.

Why do you like Eve? She’s had about 0 actual content this game

Mostly tone, especially in the back and forth with skitter where I felt skitter appeared inauthentic--Eve appeared the opposite.

What about skitter did you not like? Does this go back to the “too dumb” thing you said in 170? Why do you think what she said is “too dumb”?

Yes. The whole tone of that back and forth felt manufactured. Skitter is almost acting as if she has never played with someone like how Eve is playing. In my experience, there is someone with Eve's style in nearly every game. Like I would expect 128 from someone who had never played before or never seen an RVS jokeclaim, but clearly that doesn't match her experience level.

Once again, feels like you are trying to have others push GL for you, I don’t see any attempts from you to engage with that slot beyond surface level. Same goes for skitter.

See some of my other comments, but the summary is some combination of "I don't exactly agree with that characterization" and "I'm not one to push that hard this early."

Of course you agree with nom’s 149, she’s defending you!! my questions to you above still stand.
- Smarter

Maybe you read it wrong, but nom's 149 is absolutely

not

defending me. It's rejecting the idea that my response couldn't come from badscum because scum aren't perfect.

[acryon]

I think Karnage also screams town so far. Fairly straightforward posting.

Agreed.

I’m not really seeing the reasoning for town!nom.

I think a big cause of my uncertainty is the lack of push from acryon, who’s defending himself from GL and voting GL for it but didn’t even react/respond to nom’s comments on acryon’s post (which were in line with GL’s comments). The more I think about it, the weirder it seems.

- Smarter

Nom voted for me because of 107, which I could see someone having a hard time with, especially not knowing me. GL voted me for content before that. Different people, different reasons.

[acryon]

Nom voted for me because of 107, which I could see someone having a hard time with, especially not knowing me

Please detail on the "especially not knowing me" part.

This line especially I think is my personality showing: I'm maybe honest to a fault in mafia. I try to play the same as town or scum so I don't think it says much there, but if you were familiar with me, that post likely wouldn't ping you as much.

I think calling what I'm doing "scumhunting" at all would be an overstatement.

[acryon]

Well, if the questions you are asking is not for trying to sort people, what purpose do they serve?

Of course they are trying to sort people--what makes you think they're not? RVS/early game is far from useless, as I said. There is plenty of information to be gained which is why I've asked questions and made comments where I have. I'm just not likely to lead a push day 1, since I'm likely wrong.

[acryon]

Are you scared of being wrong?

I wouldn't say scared. But I think it would be foolish of me to lead a charge against someone I have such a weak read on at this stage. I'm only scared of being wrong inasmuch as that wrongness leads to town losing the game. So I try to mitigate that however I can; one way is by not pushing so hard on mild reads.

[acryon]

Hm.
Yeah, alright.
If you had to vig someone out of this game right now who would it be?

GuiltyLion

[acryon]

Acryon, your posts are not doing anything to change my mind. I apologize for misremembering the posting order/which post that nom had originally voted you for, but even in the most recent conversation, you were answering questions but not adding anything of substance or asking questions. As I said, I would expect town to be reaching out more and putting out feelers even on D1 - doesn't have to be "making a big case" like you're implying I said (also, way to put words in my mouth, because that is not what I said), but just engaging with others. And I'm not seeing that from you, it feels like you're being super passive in terms of interacting with other players.

I don't disagree with you as much on how the game should be played as I do your characterization of how I've played the game. Ideally we'd agree on both if we're on the same side (which I think we are), but c'est la vie. Moving on.

If [acryon] himself can see that his post didn't look like scumhunting then he needs to give more explanation as to whether and/or why he finds me suspicious for calling that out.

I thought of a (probably bad) analogy.

GuiltyLion rolls up on acryon's house and sees him working in the front by some soil where he's planting seeds. GuiltyLion says "Wow that's a bad garden. You don't even have anything growing." Not only would it be 1) disingenuous and silly to criticize the garden at that stage, it's also 2) possible acryon is planting the seeds exactly right, and it

is

going to be a good garden. I'm less interested in arguing 2), but 1) is why I have an issue with what GL did.

I like Eve.

Mostly tone, especially in the back and forth with skitter where I felt skitter appeared inauthentic--Eve appeared the opposite.

When you say you like Eve, it's not clear — do you townread Eve or do you just enjoy her posts?

Townread.

[acryon]

That entrance from Saus is ok. Some original thoughts there.

GuiltyLion rolls up on acryon's house and sees him working in the front by some soil where he's planting seeds. GuiltyLion says "Wow that's a bad garden. You don't even have anything growing." Not only would it be 1) disingenuous and silly to criticize the garden at that stage, it's also 2) possible acryon is planting the seeds exactly right, and it is going to be a good garden. I'm less interested in arguing 2), but 1) is why I have an issue with what GL did.

But you immediately insisted you were happy with your vote him, despite you not having been scumhunting. So now you're selling the vegetables from the garden before they grow.

Except I already had my vote on him before that, so you're mucking up my analogy.

And even if I didn't, putting up a sign saying "Vegetables for sale" in anticipation of them growing is a lot different then knocking on your door and shoving a carrot in your face.

[acryon]

Your vote on him before was RVS, though.

Correct.

Question: if you believe I'm scum, how are you currently reconciling sheeping my scumread on skitter?

[acryon]

142 from GuiltyLion doesn’t feel great. I’m always wary of people trying to paint a big picture based on a post or two early on. RVS stage is far from useless, but it typically doesn’t lead to these kinds of revelations.

what "big picture" do you think I was painting with that post? I was answering a question directed at me.

and would it change your mind if I showed you numerous examples from my past where town!me tries to make reads as quickly as possible? I hate RVS

Eh maybe. I put very little stock in anything meta-related, but it's good to know.

I think trying to call someone out for "fake scumhunting" with my extremely minimal body of work seemed disingenuous.

what do you think of my blank vote on you?

I actually have less of an issue with a blank vote than a vote with what I see as bad reasons.

i'm interested that the acryon wagon seems to have collapsed and reformed on allo. i don't have a read on allo himself but sudden general consensus there loosely points to town!allo too

I was ready to move Allo since his posts felt really bad (as others clearly thought as well), but this post more or less echos my hesitation to vote there.

does someone have townreads on Limit that is for beyond reasons that they post walls just curious

I felt pretty bad about BBmolla's re-entrance to the game, but this and some other posts since seem very town.

Full reads list coming in a bit.

[acryon]

skitter on the other hand looks worse now. I need to go back and look at her ISO but I didn't like her reaction to eve and her all but ignoring the allo wagon

I was torn between the late comment in 268 coming across as town (because it mirrored my thoughts) or opportunistic scum trying to gain townpoints from an impending mislynch. Seems you think it's the latter?

[acryon]

If Allo is in fact L-1, I think someone should hop off just to be safe.

Town - BBmolla
Lean-town - The Limit Does Not Exist, Karnage, nomnomnom, SausasaurusRex
Null - Eve (moved down), GuiltyLion (moved up)
Lean-scum - Allomancer, skitter30
Scum - Auro

Some additional thoughts:
skitter30 - I am really back and forth on this slot. I didn't like what I saw as playing dumb, and the rebuttal to that was so-so. I wasn't sure on the Allo post I mentioned before and Karnage confirmed I'm not alone there, but it also feels unfair to push too hard on that right now when I felt basically the same way (although I didn't verbalize it).

Auro - I started to put Auro into lean-town, and then realized I had no idea why, and I think a lot of others are doing the same. I started to dig into his posts again and realized he has basically done and said nothing for a long time (the last 14 posts at least, and many before that were fluff). He basically hasn't gotten involved in anything and seems far too happy to stay on the sidelines.

VOTE: Auro

[acryon]

I understand why you'd get that impression, but I would disagree that I'm "doing and saying nothing".
I have taken strong stances on multiple slots already.
I am actively scumhunting GuiltyLion's slot, inviting questions directed to me, and making sure that people in my proposed townblocc townread each other.

I have a work deadline in a day and I can't devote the kind of mental energy I usually do to towngames at the moment.
My last 14 posts were in just one day, that is not a very long time, pal.

However, I am also experimenting with some playstyle changes and that also contributes a little to my passiveness; I do not see it as a problem in terms of play.

This does a

little

to make me feel better, but not enough. You spent more posts talking about your "townbloc" than you have going after GL. And even when you did, you ended your "big" post (297) with fluff, which goes a long way toward taking the edge off your pitchfork. And in that post, your efforts seem focused on some meta-read/not meta-read, so I'm not even sure what to make of it.

Having work deadlines is totally understandable, and I'm never going to begrudge someone for IRL responsibilities, but you

are

posting, and you

are

doing some amount of digging it seems; it's just not resulting in what I see as town effort.

[acryon]

Do you think the top-down approach of forming a stable consensus townbloc is a bad strategy?
Generally, and in the context of this game?

Yes and not sure. Frankly I probably haven't given enough thought to the power of a townbloc in this setup.

{1/0, Nomnomnom, Karnage, Crayon} two more slots to go

Oh, and: Crayon, suppose I am scum, with the devious plan of forming a "townbloc" that lets me slip by.
I have never advocated for being on it myself, for starters. So, at the very least, I must be shoving my buddy in there (otherwise there's a 2/5 chance of a guilty which is just bad strategy).

Who do you think it could be? Or is it that I'm yet to add them?

This is a bit WIFOMy, but also some legitimate food for thought. FWIW I never thought the townbloc was a devious plan as much as it felt like fluff.

UNVOTE:

ngl that seems pretty sketchy Auro

Do you have a full readslist?

@Allomancer

When you come back, what are your thoughts on how your wagon has progressed and how people have reacted to it? Just about everyone, even those outside of it, have responded to it in some way.

[acryon]

Forming townblocs does require townhunting, but not vice versa.

[acryon]

Oh, and: Crayon, suppose I am scum, with the devious plan of forming a "townbloc" that lets me slip by.
I have never advocated for being on it myself, for starters. So, at the very least, I must be shoving my buddy in there (otherwise there's a 2/5 chance of a guilty which is just bad strategy).

Who do you think it could be? Or is it that I'm yet to add them?

This is silly. There's no guarantee that you can't change your reads, or that people will listen to them, and 2/5 chance of a guilty isn't so high that it makes no sense to run the risk as scum.

-Smart

That is true, but I'm not sure why this would ever be a strategy out of the gate. For me, it's enough to back off for now. Auro isn't a town-read for me just yet.

I'm completely serious about the townbloc: I will try my best to make sure everyone in my townbloc townread each other, form a consensus scumread, and vote there.

Would you be willing to stay OFF the wagon if possible?

Asking a good question.

[acryon]

@Allomancer When you come back, what are your thoughts on how your wagon has progressed and how people have reacted to it? Just about everyone, even those outside of it, have responded to it in some way.

I'm not really too concerned about it. I feel like every game I've played lately, whether I've been town or scum, has lead to an early day 1 wagon on me.

That wasn't really my question. My question is more what are your reads on how people jumped on you/reacted to the jump on you?

[acryon]

Rex you should definitely join me in voting BBmolla

Karnage saw what he did there too

In what world do you think Karnage was agreeing with you?

Sausage sounds like a robot trying to sound human

This made me lol. Also I agree.

I don’t think we should follow through with the allomancer lynch. Whilst his ISO isn’t

good

, it’s not terrible either. I think the best course of action is to scumhunt a little more first, to see if anyone else seems more scummy. We have a deadline, and we may as well use all that time. If allomancer still seems the scummiest after that time, then we can lynch him. But my point is that we shouldn’t lynch him yet.

Can you provide an update to your read on Eve? You said her posts didn't seem townie and you wanted to see more.

I was already cooling on Eve and this recent stretch hasn't helped.

VOTE: Eve

[acryon]

yeah i don't like the way you stepped in to defend Auro there

What did you not like about it? Do you think scum!BB was trying to protect scum!Auro?

[acryon]

Yeah I'm not convinced about this eve push. Makes me feel at ease.

At ease about what? Your Allo push (which I don't have a problem with at all to be clear)?

[acryon]

I don’t think we should follow through with the allomancer lynch. Whilst his ISO isn’t

good

, it’s not terrible either. I think the best course of action is to scumhunt a little more first, to see if anyone else seems more scummy. We have a deadline, and we may as well use all that time. If allomancer still seems the scummiest after that time, then we can lynch him. But my point is that we shouldn’t lynch him yet.

You’re saying that on page 16 we don’t have enough info to lynch, but you were happy to say that Eve should be lynched back on page 9 for even less content than Allomancer has as of 371. What’s up with that?

- Smarter

I didn’t say Eve should be lynched. I said that if her content does not get better she should be lynched. I even specifically asked for more content from her, as if I wanted more information before a lynch. You will notice I didn’t even vote her, much less call for an immediate lynch upon her. What you said is a very badly done misrepresentation of my what I said.
I still think we should wait a little longer before we lynch anyone. Even if it turns out Allomancer is scum, we will still have gained useful information.

I feel like you're not actually

saying

anything...

Eve gave more content, but then you didn't even comment on that content or on her at all after that. 371 is such a non-post I don't even know what to do with it.

[acryon]

I don’t think Eve’s content has got any better, and I would prefer to lynch her than lynch Allomancer. However, I would still like to wait a little before we do so, in order to gather more information for later days and for day 1. My point in 371 was to discourage an immediate lynch on Allomancer and encourage people to gather more information before making a final decision on a day 1 lynch.

Where are your reads? Your pushes? Your attempts to engage literally anyone?

This. This. This.

Are you a part of this game or are you some weird coach that pops in from time to time to offer your general guidance?

[acryon]

I typically don't care about meta much, but I'd have a hard time supporting a lynch with such little content (Sauce).

So I looked at some of his past games, and I have seen stretches of effort and insight, but I've also seen some stretches of non-content like he's done this game. If we didn't have other viable options, I would support a lynch there, but given that I think we do, we should maybe hold off for a little more. I'm not entirely convinced he isn't just being lazy (maybe uninterested if I've being charitable).

[acryon]

I echoed a lot of TLDNE's sentiments. Why do you think he is scum, but make no mention of me?

[acryon]

I should clarify no mention of *my alignment.

[acryon]

I think we probably just need to lynch Allomancer. Likely scum, and no matter the outcome, there's no flip that gives us more info than that one.

[acryon]

What information would a townflip on Allo give you?

I haven't done the VCA to tell you that (nor am I probably the best person to do so), but it's been by far the topic that's generated the most discussion.

[acryon]

I'd like to hear your thoughts nonetheless, from the discussion itself.

I probably won't go into it too much, because to be perfectly frank I don't want to spend a bunch of time on hypotheticals, especially since we'll also have a NK and the scenario you're presenting is the one I think is less likely.

But high-level: anyone who had weak reasons for their reads on him look worse, and those that were quick to jump from me to him probably look worse.

[acryon]

I don't love skitter either, but I'm not sure I can get there over Eve/Allo today. Maybe I need to take another look too.

[acryon]

I already considered that, but that would also ensure the inno'd person gets NK'd. I don't want Skitter/GL to be NK'd like that.

Nevermind.

So the postcount has over doubled since you last posted any reads. Where are they sitting right now?

[acryon]

In my experience if scum takes an irrational persona it's a conscious choice in how to approach the game and how to fool the playerlist, and I sincerely don't think that Eve is that kind of player

This is the primary point in your ISO, and I disagree.

I think a skim of her town meta will show that this is her playstyle.

I've not seen many players post in such a manner as town and then subvert it when they roll scum - isn't it expected they'll carry that style?

I think a skim of her town meta will show that this is her playstyle.

I've not seen many players post in such a manner as town and then subvert it when they roll scum - isn't it expected they'll carry that style?

There always are differences. Unless a player is greatly aware of their standing in the playerlist or is the kind to post over and over again, scum players are bound to always be more careful with what they say. I think a greater scumtell for someone like Eve if they were to post way less "insane sounding stuff", if that makes sense. But again, I might be wrong. I might make a meta check to see what her scumgame looks like, but this is my intuition so far.

I'm inclined to be more in agreement with Auro here. While I do think they may be

slightly

more careful, I don't think people make drastic departures from their normal style of play typically. While I agree that way less "insane sounding stuff" would be a scumtell here, I don't agree that a close to normal amount of "insane sounding stuff" is a towntell.

[acryon]

Bonus note: through all these meta dives the biggest scumtell I have ever seen is the "why am I town" question. I don't know why but scums tend to ask that question? I've done it too and I can't rationalize why I did that, but I'm definitely seeing a pattern. Just throwing that out there, maybe I'm wrong but just pointing this out for later games.

I agree with you. I think it's just a classic WIFOM fallback. "Obviously scum would never question someone about why they would think they are town."

pedit:

[acryon]

@Mod

V/LA until Monday morning CDT.

[acryon]

Oh boy this was a lot to catch up on...I did skim some things. First some reactions, then a post in a bit with summary thoughts.

Re: Allo

I don't like Saurasaurus Rex's posts. I think Eve's shifted a bit scummier with her vote on BBmolla. I feel like you're getting a bit townier, but I still scumread you.

allo why exactly are you scumreading acryon?
i'm actually kinda surprised that you're still voting acryon and not voting eve tbh?

Yeah this pinged me a bit. His best vote is on someone who is “getting a bit townier”?

he feels really earnest with the "let's not Lynch anyone yet guys" and "TLDNE misrepped me and is certain mafia" takes. There's no self-consciousness in his ISO at all. I don't agree with most if not all of what he's said but I do feel that he believes in it.

"Let's not lynch anyone yet" seems like a very easily faked towntell. It felt like an easy way to make a noncontroversial statement by agreeing with the sentiment of the town, but also not take any responsibility for the wagon. And I view the second thing as scum trying to come up with an easy excuse to push somebody.

This is easily the best post I’ve seen from Allo yet.

allo, again, why are you still voting acryon?

I will say that it feels unlike scum to ignore people’s questions on multiple occasions.

Other Comment

I was already cooling on Eve and this recent stretch hasn't helped.

i actually thought the recent stretch was fine, for once

Interesting. What about it did you like?

The TA has to play cleverly. I think even if they get a guilty, they don't out it immediately but just crumb it. But thoughts on these are a little unformed, this is also something to discuss.

I’m not sure I totally agree here, but if they do, they better REALLY crumb it.

I don't feel good about GuiltyLion, if I haven't said that in my walls to him

The walls between you two did not feel like TvT. I’m not sure which side is which though.

Having a hard time staying engaged in a game with massive walls, let me be real here.

Ditto.

[acryon]

The walls between you two did not feel like TvT

Could totes be TvT

I don't disagree that it could be, but my gut feeling reading it was that it was not.

[acryon]

Allomancer

- I don’t know what to make of this guy.
- As others have mentioned, his vote being on me still, especially when I am “looking townier”, just makes no sense. Could be scum trying to avoid making other enemies. But at the same time, in this setup it benefits scum to be on the wagon. So I’m not sure how voting a random person off of it helps, unless the plan was to switch once it’s closer to a lynch (which I think is possible).
- As I mentioned, the fact that he’s just been straight ignoring questions from people feels like a towntell to me. It’s annoying, but I am finding it harder to believe that scum would be so careless and willing to leave people hanging.

I’m still not entirely opposed to an Allo lynch because some of this stuff is a bit WIFOMy, but I think Eve is better.

Eve

@Eve:
- Why did you move your vote off BBmolla?
- What kind of agenda do you think Auro is being driven by? If it's scummy, why isn't your vote there?
- Why do you think nomnom could be scum?

My thoughts:
- I'm always going to have a hard time with slots that seem to give so little effort to the game. Effort is NAI, but I think many of Eve's posts are actively distracting.
- Posts like 631 feel very town to me, but they're not enough to push me off my vote.

[acryon]

If we are lynching between allo and eve I'd prefer to lynch allo. Lynching eve removes the WIFOM for scum on deciding whether or not she needs to be night killed

Fair point.

[acryon]

There is no wifom, her claim is random, scum will take her to LyLo

I leaned this way, but didn't think it was helpful to state it explicitly. Though I don't blame you for doing so.

[acryon]

There is no wifom, her claim is random, scum will take her to LyLo

What makes you so certain about this? Unless I’m missing something obvious.

I think it's just the fact that it would be a bonehead play for the actual TA to do, and it seems fairly in-character for Eve to claim something random.

Pedit: Also fair.

[acryon]

You're right.

VOTE: Allomancer

[acryon]

Can someone sum up the case on Allo for me?

-Smart

Allo just made the perfect case in his last post just a second ago.

[acryon]

Because Eve is more scummy in tone and that has the tendency to make people think "scum" instantly.
She still could be scum ultimately speaking, in this gamestate. If I had a vig shot I'd shoot her right now.

If Allo flips town, would you think she is a good lynch D2 in absence of any other information or posting, then?

I agree with this.

[acryon]

The walls between you two did not feel like TvT. I’m not sure which side is which though.

agreed, except that i think that auro is the t and gl is the s

That would also be my thought if my gut is right there (but I also agree with a lot of 777 so I'm not ready to make a move there soon). I don't think Auro is scum.

also you realize you're dinging allo for this:

As others have mentioned, his vote being on me still, especially when I am “looking townier”, just makes no sense.

when you're doing something pretty similar to eve, right?

- Posts like 631 feel very town to me, but they're not enough to push me off my vote.

In my mind, I was comment on a single post out of many I thought was good vs. a general progression towards seeming more town that Allo seemed to be saying. But it's possible I have a double-standard there. I do also think having a vote on Eve was important in the context of the game and wagons whereas a vote sitting on me still was doing absolutely nothing.

[acryon]

Allo's last post makes me think VI in this game, but honestly even if he isn't scum, I don't think we can keep him in this game.

[acryon]

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

I dunno, but Eve has to unvote first.

Allo are you going to produce any useful content at all?

I think they are town...

[acryon]

I looked at another game of theirs and I'm pretty convinced they're just VI...FWIW I think the town is better off without them in the game either way, but we have a bit of time so I think we need to think about this.

[acryon]

But then there is also this game, where Allo was lynched as Town day 1 but their play seemed a lot different and they actually fought back...

Not sure, just getting cold feet. Somebody get in here and help me make sense of this.

[acryon]

I don't think we can or should get a vote on any one of those three today, but I agree all are worth a re-look. I feel the best about Molla of those.

[acryon]

i don't get your reasoning there Auro - maybe i'm not on your realm of thinking but could you dumb it down for me with more "no u"s?

nomnom is a strange player who might be a scum person in this game of mafia

Also worth highlighting that Eve was picking up on potential scum nom early and that has also made me revisit it, more townpoints for Eve here

Let's not give Eve townpoints for that before we know Nom's alignment.

I do agree that we're just in a tough spot here. We have several people with very little actual content.

Pedit: I will never be able to support a Karnage vote today. Gut town vibes and need more time/content to sort.

[acryon]

re: allo

calling him town was inaccurate. my 453 better reflects my view

looked back through allo's ISO and while it doesn't scream town it doesn't scream scum either. There's a better lynch out there I think

apologies. i'll be back later to get caught up.

allo is likely town imo

looked back through allo's ISO and while it doesn't scream town it doesn't scream scum either. There's a better lynch out there I think

Acryon how do you feel about this though, do you see Town going through this sequence? Have you played with town!Karnage before?

Unfortunately I've never played with any of these people I don't think. But I actually would expect scum to come up with a better reason for a seemingly contradictory read. That does actually feel like a town response to me, because I know my feelings on slots flip-flop throughout the game.

[acryon]

Do you feel like he was simply reflecting general consensus?

No, mostly because I wouldn't characterize the rest of his play that way. The multiple "I need to catch up" posts don't give me good vibes, but I don't have a massive scum feeling there.

[acryon]

I mean, sometimes you get behind and need to catch up. What don't you like about them?

-Smart

I don't like a bunch of them in a row. Eventually you need to catch up... I'm not saying this is what Karnage is doing, but it's a good way for scum to excuse not getting involved in things.

[acryon]

but it's still also worrying to me that he said there's a better lynch out there and then basically has done nothing to find or push it.

I do have an issue with this, which is is why I don't like those catch-up posts. I don't like trying to influence the game and make those kinds of claims while doing no work of your own.

[acryon]

Tbqh I don’t think Eve and Allo are both town

If they are we’re in trouble to say the least

Agree more with the second line than the first, but I wouldn't be opposed to an Eve lynch.

[acryon]

While at first I thought Karnage seemed like town, the fact that multiple people have defended him as just being gut town feels odd. It feels like one of {acryon, molla} could've said that to try to prevent a wagon forming on a partner without having to describe their reads. I also don't like molla's posting generally, that I'm no longer sure which of those two could be scum.

VOTE: Karnage

Easier than having to guess between acryon and molla.

Can you give a full readslist please?

[acryon]

I don't know I'm lost with this game and all these wallposts make me skip significant discussion
Karnage is like obvtown right? What made you doubt about him?

Are you skipping everything, or just the walls? I think the number of walls is much smaller than you make it out to be.

honestly I'm kinda skipping everything at this point and I just want a flip all this stuff is meaningless to me.
Just make someone flip I'm sick of this.

Ok I really hate this attitude, and it's not pro-town. If the game is stagnant, it's because we're lacking input from people that could be providing it. I can understand being frustrated with walls, but there's plenty to comment on outside of those. I mostly skimmed the walls, and frankly the walling in this game hasn't even been notably bad IMO.

I think we need to hang Allo or Eve, and check nom/Karnage off the wagon if we don't get scum.

[acryon]

VOTE: Eve

This vote does not jive with your ISO to this point

honestly I'm kinda skipping everything at this point and I just want a flip all this stuff is meaningless to me. Just make someone flip I'm sick of this.

But does scum really say this? besides I've had this thought as town a lot of times

It could be theater, and based on nom's experience level, I wouldn't put it past her. Maybe she actually did lose track of the game as either alignment, but if you're town you make an effort; what you don't do is blame other people for making the game hard to read. But if you're scum it's a lot easier to just do that, not take responsibility for falling behind, and avoid having to put together a story.

[acryon]

It could be theater, and based on nom's experience level, I wouldn't put it past her. Maybe she actually did lose track of the game as either alignment, but if you're town you make an effort; what you don't do is blame other people for making the game hard to read. But if you're scum it's a lot easier to just do that, not take responsibility for falling behind, and avoid having to put together a story.

It COULD be theater but I'm just saying I've been there as town so it should probably be NAI.

But to be fair, I think there's a difference between what you two are doing. You have taken responsibility for falling behind; she is blaming others. You are opening yourself up to criticism and scrutiny; she is passing the buck.

[acryon]

I don't have a problem with getting frustrated/struggling with some amount of wallposting. Especially as someone who is only available during the day on weekdays, I know the difficulty of trying to catch up with a mountain of content.

I just don't see the town in her recent responses.

[acryon]

Doesn't look like a joke to me.

Thoughts on a cop check between Karnage and nom off the wagon?

[acryon]

Nom definitely goes into the copbloc. Molla goes into the copbloc.
I'm ambivalent about Karnage. If you and Smart think so, you could swap him out for any of Skitter/GuiltyLion.
I wouldn't leash the cop to just two slots though, but the cop could assign a higher weight to Nom when they roll the die

I'm fine with GL being on-wagon I think. Maybe nom/karnage/Skitter for copbloc.

[acryon]

I think whoever isn't lynched in {Eve, Allomancer} should be in the cop bloc.

Agreed.

[acryon]

So when the cop gets a clear on a player, how are they supposed to communicate that without exposing themselves? and if they get a guilty, do they come out with it right away? if not, when?

I am personally in favor of claiming any guilty unless they can be 100% sure they can crumb well enough to make it

abundantly

clear.

If they have a clear on a player, they just need to put a good case together for why they're town.

[acryon]

They crumb it in a clever fashion. I'll post some threads/articles about crumbing; it should be discoverable if they die. However scum will be keeping a very close eye on this, so it could be hard.
Hypoclaiming is an option, but it works well when both scum are in the townbloc and badly when both scum are in the copbloc.
Guilties shouldn't be claimed immediately at least, probably let the day play out before claiming. This should definitely be crumbed strongly. If done well, cop can perhaps catch the other scum too, and if NK'd, we spot the guilty crumb.

Need to think more about this too.

I agree with all of this.

[acryon]

@acryon, can you explain your progression on Allomancer? It seems like you're scumreading him in 696 then flip flopping/unsure of him/nulltown (?) read in 702. Then you vote him in 711, and then in 735 you seem to be pushing for the lynch to go through. Afterwards you jump off the wagon in 811 and seem to be leaning town, but in more recent posts (895) you've said that Allo is still a lynchable slot for you. I'd like to hear what your thought process has been on this slot and also your current read.

- Smarter

I was expecting to go back and actually see myself flip-flopping more (which is how it's felt for me with Allo), but honestly: 696 it was clear I was unsure. One of my comments is about how he made a good post, and another about how its unlike scum to ignore things like Allo has. My main reason for preferring Eve over Allo in 702 was because of WIFOMy stuff that felt like towntells that I referenced in 696. 711 I voted because nom's reasoning of nobody townreading him was pretty dang compelling. Typically at least

someone

has reasons to townread a given player. 811 was me going back through Allo's posts as a player in general and seeing some similarities in past games where they were town. I'm not big enough meta but it was enough to back my gut off.895 was a realization that we are getting tight on time, and Allo still would not be the worst we could do.

bbmolla who's scum?

One of Allo/Eve + a skilled scummer

Agreed. Also BBmolla is still town people.

Okay but here I had a very easy way as scum not to get scumread and literally everyone in this game thought I was conftown for it.
There's no reason for me as scum to say I am confused here.

That would be true up until a few pages ago. Now you have some amount of heat on you so I don't think that holds up the same.

[acryon]

@Individuals on wagons other than Eve/Allo:

I don't think we have time to make a smart decision outside of these two. Any other wagon is going to be rushed. It's day 1; I think it makes sense to go with one of the two prevailing wagons of the day, providing us all the associatives and reactions that go along with them being the most popular.

[acryon]

My preference is to lynch Allomancer. Eve should definitely be in the cop bloc; if she does not unvote in the next 24 hours, I think we should just lynch Eve!

{Acryon, 1/0, Karnage, BBMolla, Rex, Allomancer} -> Lynch Wagon
{Nomnomnom, Skitter30, GuiltyLion, Auro, Eve} -> Cop bloc

I would be wary of swapping GL into the townbloc at this moment, even though I townread him.

I have no problem with that plan.

Pedit: I'm just not sure we can get there today. She has definitely fallen considerably in my readlist, but I just get uncomfortable with end-of-day speedwagons (maybe not quite because we do have a couple days, but still).

[acryon]

You do realize GuiltyLion is just stating his preference, implying GuiltyLion would just go with consensus, right?*

sure but I don't see that it matters. If I'm scum, why settle with whatever the consensus is?

Because unless he knows for a fact, sometimes the right play as town is to push that gut-feeling until later. It's not always in the best interest of town for everyone to just push their individual gut read. You have to trust the others you think are town as well.

[acryon]

VOTE: Eve

[acryon]

Yeah...we still have some real problems in this game, Sauce's activity being a major one.

[acryon]

Hi GL, what's your current read on acryon? I don't think you've mentioned him since 509. Is he still your strongest townread, and can you share your thoughts on his recent posts?

- Smarter

I dunno about 'strongest' towered but I do TR him still and am fine with him being on any wagon. I think the re-evaluation on Allo was much like my own, and the evolving suspicion towards Karnage/nom felt pretty organic too. I realize in writing this out that I'm again giving town credit for mirroring my own reads, but absent any flips so far I don't really have a strong reason to re-evaluate on him in particular.

One thing I don't like (since your post here) is the default back to lynching Allo again - the reasons I have for not wanting to lynch Allo make him a really bad choice of wagon/lynch at deadline here. I thought acryon shared those reasons but now I'm guessing not...

VOTE: nom
i thought about it some more and her push on me is awful and i think she's fully capable of making the sorts of posts she made last night as scum

my townread on karnage has all bu evaporated, and i'm kinda starting to see some nom/karnage vibes

i'm confused why we're going back to an eve/allo paradigm

My main reason for being back to Eve/Allo was because of time. I'm unavailable starting 24 hours or so from now, so the daytime remaining is very tight for me.

Given this recent momentum, I think a lynch on nom is possible. I'd be on board with that if we can get it done by tomorrow.

[acryon]

Well my problem right now is that the only people currently voting there are all people I have scumread at some point. So I think I'd like to hear from some of the abstainers.

[acryon]

do u currently scumread those people?

Eve - Yes
You - Not sure
GL - No

[acryon]

Auro breaking the game.

[acryon]

I actually agree with Eve and my gut tells me that outburst was town... Problem is if nom is town, there's no way scum!Eve jumps in to stop her own counterwagon.

I'm considering having cop leash, you're [nom] fine being the cop check tonight?

I was thinking we need to do this too.

@SausasaurusRex: Are you kidding me dude? Haven't said anything all day basically, and

that

is your comment coming back? Give us anything...

I frankly have no clue where to vote right now. I honestly would be happy lynching a lurker slot at this point if I can't figure out something by the end of the day. These are just going to make this game that much harder, and there's actually a good chance one of the lurking players in this game is scum.

[acryon]

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

Nom's ISO is more complaints and less solving.
Last time she had this kind of oubtburst, she kept solving.

But she probably was solving before in that instance right? I would actually be

more

concerned if she was not solving, took heat, and all of a sudden starting solving. At least she's consistent. Makes the mindset for this day seem genuine.

[acryon]

I'm not into a Karnage lynch. As much as my gut is telling me Allo could be town, I think due to time's sake we have to go there.

I agree with a die roll, but are we sure we don't want people like Sauce/Karnage in the copbloc as well?

[acryon]

I don't see how the Allo situation gets better tomorrow either, so at the very least we remove a distraction.

[acryon]

We definitely don't need GL on the wagon for an Allo lynch. Plenty interest there, especially this close to deadline.

Agree on Karnage (haven't played with him, but it seems others have), but I feel like Sauce should be in there no? What do we do with that slot tomorrow?

[acryon]

is it bad that her posts on the last page i found kind of fake?

How fake do they feel vs. how real did the ones before that feel?

The only way of actually producing "innos" is by leashing, and I don't want leashing. If cop checks him via die, coming out to save him from being mislynched D2 is poor play.
I guess this circles back to way earlier, but optimal early checks for cops is by leashing to the set of power scum players.

I'm confident that Rex will also tell as he posts more. We'll make him post more

Ok I'll take your word for Rex.

[acryon]

Yeah those are both bad.

[acryon]

Cool. Smart, Acryon; you fine with a Nom lynch too?

I've been waffling, but yes.

[acryon]

I'm sorry, but stop acting like you're being skewered for "confusion". You acted like there were a ton of walls--there weren't. There were enough to get glossy-eyed, and I myself skimmed over them, but I didn't see them, get frustrated and decide to skip everything. Why? Because I'm town and I'm playing to my wincon.

There's a world of difference between confusion and willful ignorance.

honestly I'm kinda skipping everything at this point and I just want a flip all this stuff is meaningless to me.
Just make someone flip I'm sick of this.

[acryon]

You were willing to let people scumread each other, hammer each other and so on in this game too.

100% this.

[acryon]

pedit: I said I skipped wordy posts because I am not interested in pointless 1v1s and I do this every single game
you wanna lynch me for that? Go ahead

You literally said you were "skipping everything". Explain to me how that falls into playing to your win-con as town?

[acryon]

How is it that you can be so confused (which means your reads are weak this game) while simultaneously knowing enough to decide which posts are "useless" and "pointless"?

[acryon]

"Some of the apples are rotten, but I have no idea which bushel they're in."
"Maybe you could check the bushels over here?"
"Those bushels are useless."

Well we don't know until we look do we?

[acryon]

Do you know why I skim through big portion of posts and single tidbits of discussions? Because the micro portion of mafia is not how you catch scum. It's the macro portion of mafia, the bigger picture, analyzing the gamestate. The micro portion only becomes helpful when you specifically look for things like interaction when you have a few flips to work with. That's why I do it. I like how I do things, but apparently a lot of people don't This is just how I play.

I can certainly appreciate that, but because you can die any night you need to be able to play the short- and long-game. You can't forsake the former for the latter.

[acryon]

VOTE: Eve
This is what I propose as a wagon. I think from a read progression and macro standpoint she's the sketchiest in the mix I posted.

Actually to your point, I'm now remembering that I questioned Eve on this and she just straight-up never responded...

[acryon]

But why would Eve say your responses looked genuine and change the vote off of you?

[acryon]

Then again if you're doubting on Eve, I have the other slots I mentioned as compromise. We don't have all day.
If you seriously can't trust me, then I guess my lynch is inevitable. Maybe my guidance will be helpful then if my word can be trusted.

Well I can't trust you right now, but if we get more of you tomorrow and you're town, I think the town is better off.

My opinion is back to Nom goes in the copbloc we lynch Allo.

[acryon]

I think Allo is the weakest in the list I posted, actually, probably because of the tone. Something about that strikes me more townie? I don't know. Still have some doubts.
I'd be something like Eve > karnage=skitt > allo in terms of my own personal preferences.

Not touching Karnage today. Skitt could be a good copcheck. Eve I trust about as much as you at the moment.

[acryon]

Really unfortunate I can't be around past 15 minutes from now. Sorry for any issues that causes.

VOTE: Allomancer

I think this is what needs to be done.

[acryon]

Able to pop on for just a second. No momentum on Allo, so moving to get something done.

VOTE: Nomnomnom

[acryon]

I don't think that I will need to.

Yeah...

So who put the brakes on the Allo wagon and in what manner did they do it? That's where I'm looking.

[acryon]

Yeah...

So who put the brakes on the Allo wagon and in what manner did they do it? That's where I'm looking.

Why would scum try to derail the wagon if they picked up on that?

Because they get him anyway and they get potential townpoints for stopping it.

[acryon]

If the scumteam is as competent as we think they are, I wouldn't put it past them.

Plus, the role PM makes it seem like they have daytalk.

[acryon]

GuiltyLion looks more town to me, mostly because of 824. I think scum!GL comes up with a better reason to give someone townpoints than their suspicion of a player scum!GL knows to be town.

I don't love Karnage right now. I think he skated by doing nothing yesterday. Hoping to see some good post-flip insight from him.

[acryon]

I don't think that I will need to.

Yeah...

So who put the brakes on the Allo wagon and in what manner did they do it? That's where I'm looking.

Uh.... hate to break it to you but you were the first person off the Allomancer wagon after it hit L-1. However, it’s not clear whether you picked up on the soft. You were followed by GL unvoting directly after (whom I believe did pick up on the soft there). Will reread that section and see if I get anything out of those pages.

- Smarter

Oh I know I was one that put the brakes on it at one point, but I don't have to question my own motives

[acryon]

What’s your read on Karnage?

- Smarter

Frankly I'm not sure. I need to go back and do a re-read of him. I had early gut town-vibes, and then he didn't do much most of the day so he kind of stayed off my radar.

[acryon]

the scumteam's probably quite competent if they correctly ascertained Allo was traffic guy and risked killing a highly mislynchable potential townie

VOTE: skitter

it's you isn't it

his softing wasn't exactly ... subtle
i'm pretty sure gl saw it too, right in the same place i did

if i were scum here i'm not sure why i wouldn't have run him up and forced him to claim

FWIW I did not pick up on the soft, although I haven't played in a while so that could be part of it. Allo just seemed like a VI to me.

Looking back, it's clear GL saw it in 791. I also think this is a towntell from GL. Since scum have daytalk, there's no reason for scum!GL to potentially signal people to a softclaim.

[acryon]

Theory question: would scum always go for a NL over ML? Like, is it better for them to have town!nom lynched D1 or no lynch at all?

- Smarter

With a living cop, a lynch.

[acryon]

Yes I know, but when you asked skitter where the soft was it seems like you didn’t know.

How would pressuring him make him less likely to be NK?

1. Whether there was something else that made it obvious. Skitter said GL "likely" saw it, when GL blatantly responded to it with "better not be what I think it is" after that statement - a little fishy

2. Reflects that I don't believe the crumb, and also paints them as a very mislynchable candidate the next day: so if you're not *sure* as scum that they're TA, forcing their claim next day isn't a bad prospect, etc

1 - Are you saying that skitter only being “pretty sure” that GL saw the same crumb is fishy? Like, is it the degree of surety that you are questioning or something else?

2 - ? You were presenting Allo as a deadline lynch candidate - how does that put pressure on him without actually resulting in a lynch or hardclaim?

- Smarter

I like both of these questions a lot.

[acryon]

So who put the brakes on the Allo wagon and in what manner did they do it? That's where I'm looking.

GL pretty clearly suggested that he was backing off because he saw the soft.

-Smart

Yep I agree with this.

Theory question: would scum always go for a NL over ML? Like, is it better for them to have town!nom lynched D1 or no lynch at all?

- Smarter

With a living cop, a lynch.

Scum confident about Allo cop wouldn't really bother much about this, they'd just focus on looking town.

I'm not sure anyone would be confident enough to believe a NL is better than a lynch.

Pedit: No.

[acryon]

So @acryon, who out of those deflating the Allo wagon do you think did so the most suspiciously?

Cause I kinda think it’s you. You were the first one to back off the wagon but at deadline you were happy to divert attention from the nom wagon which was basically the only viable wagon at that point and you tried to lynch Allomancer instead.

- Smarter

Probably Eve or Auro. I know I didn't spot the soft, but it seems like almost everyone else did. So anyone who jumped back on after Allo after backing off from the soft is suspicious to me.

I thought Allo was more likely to hit scum than Nom, and I was quickly cooling on Nom as scum. I only switched back to Nom because I wanted to ensure we got something.

[acryon]

So @acryon, who out of those deflating the Allo wagon do you think did so the most suspiciously?

Cause I kinda think it’s you. You were the first one to back off the wagon but at deadline you were happy to divert attention from the nom wagon which was basically the only viable wagon at that point and you tried to lynch Allomancer instead.

- Smarter

Probably Eve or Auro. I know I didn't spot the soft, but it seems like almost everyone else did. So anyone who jumped back on after Allo after backing off from the soft is suspicious to me.

Actually scratch this. They know they can kill him at night, so no reason to continue to push this angle as long as the lynch is on town.

[acryon]

Probably Eve or Auro.

I was deflating it?

Yeah no, that's why I said scratch this. I realize my mind just went in the wrong direction.

[acryon]

I have some reads but I just don't think they're worth much. I think TLDE, auro, and acryon are town. Eve is probably town too.

That leaves scum in skitter, GL, BB, and SR.

Gun to my head I'd say SR is town and BB idk. I'd prefer to lynch either skit/GL today

I agree with this analysis, almost to the word. I'm not confident beyond Smart and Acryon though.

What do you think about GL's interactions with the Allo claim? See a couple of my recent posts for my thoughts.

[acryon]

What's interesting to me is GL's trajectory from being annoyed at inclusion in the cop bloc, to *asking* to leash a cop on himself at the end of the day. Dangerous play unless 100% certain of Allo TA, but very very very good payoff.

I definitely agree 1302 is odd...

if I'm copped, I can lead on Karnage as conftown

if Karnage is copped, he's either scum or it's super important he gets cleared

neither of us will be NK'd in the current game state

If you're town, you don't want the cop to check you because it's a waste of check, which GL did say as much earlier on. So it was odd for him to then say either he/Karnage should be checked. He should know there's no real thing as a clear--we talked about this.

Many other things led me to believe GL was town, but I do think this post is odd, so I'd like to hear his thoughts on it.

[acryon]

What's interesting to me is GL's trajectory from being annoyed at inclusion in the cop bloc, to *asking* to leash a cop on himself at the end of the day. Dangerous play unless 100% certain of Allo TA, but very very very good payoff.

It looked like GL was pretty confident in the soft. I can definitely see him doing that as scum.

-Smart

But would he also call out that he noticed the soft?

[acryon]

But would he also call out that he noticed the soft?

Possibly? I don't really see why not, if that's what he thought he'd do as town.

-Smart

Well because in this case we now

know

he spotted the soft and his actions were driven by it. Wouldn't scum rather not have the town know that he knew?

[acryon]

I mean, are we suspecting him because we know that scum figured out the soft and we know that he figured out the soft? I don't really think revealing it would be detrimental to scum-him, since it's entirely possible that scum figured out the soft and didn't let on that they did.

-Smart

I guess I still feel like it is detrimental to scum him. There's just no reason to ever point it out as scum.

[acryon]

At least not commenting gives you the flexibility of acting like you either did or didn't notice it. Directly commenting on it just limits your options.

[acryon]

Remove the confidence in Allo being a TA, and suddenly he's a crappy option to NK, no? Given at least a few very vocal players (like me) were pushing him and fine with his lynch.
It doesn't look like the kind of kill that most people as scum would typically make.

I agree with this, but I'm not sure how that helps us necessarily.

[acryon]

It was kind of me, but it was because I wanted more information before deciding on a lynch, not because I specifically didn’t want to lynch Allomancer.

Do you have

any

thoughts on this game and who might be scum/town? Thoughts on the interactions with the Allo wagon, etc?

The is the only post of even mild substance in basically two weeks.

@Auro, I think Allomancer towned up in his recent posts. Why is it that you still think he should be the lynch?

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

I'm confident that Rex will also tell as he posts more. We'll make him post more

So I told you I'd take your word for this, but now you need to explain. Why would you expect we'd get more from him?

[acryon]

Note that I didn't say I expect he'd post more, but that he would be readable when he posts more. We should make him post.

I agree, but I'm not sure how we do that.

i wouldn't object to wagoning him to pressure him but i'm kinda getting the vibe that he just doesn't check the game that often so i'm not sure how much that would accomplish

Yeah the problem is we have multiple slots providing close to nothing, making this game very difficult to parse.

[acryon]

VOTE: Eve

[acryon]

Yeah the problem is we have multiple slots providing close to nothing, making this game very difficult to parse.

True and I'm part of the problem unfortunately

VOTE: Eve

Is eve one of the slots you were referring to? If so, why vote her and not me or a different slot?

I am not including her in that category. I am voting her because I don't feel great about the circumstances surrounding her votes on nom. Voting a slot for the purpose you allude to is unhelpful IMO when we have several people in that category. Just becomes whack-a-mole at that point.

[acryon]

@Auro: Copbloc is no longer a thing. I think it's time you use your vote.

Also I changed my mind.

VOTE: SausasaurusRex

It's been a solid 2 weeks IRL since this slot has done anything I viewed as town.

[acryon]

I know it isn't. Don't think I necessarily need a vote to make my pushes , but yeah I'll be more active in a while.

I think {Acryon, Eve, Karnage, 1/0} are all town.
Molla is also town.
GL, perhaps.

PoE of {Skitter, Rex} then.

Switch Eve and GL and it's the same for me.

[acryon]

Although I'm even less sure on Eve. I still just haven't seen posts from that slot that inspire confidence.

[acryon]

With all the lurking in this game, the last thing we need is someone trolling...Any actual thoughts to help us solve things?

[acryon]

Guilty and Auro are probably town

skitter is a little off and my only scum impression

Thank you

Also I agree with you.

[acryon]

Sorry y’all I can’t get to this till tomorrow

Ok so presumably you got to it now. Where are your reads at?

[acryon]

Karnage I just had a gut-town read on and there frankly just hasn't been enough content to move the needle for me.

[acryon]

Since he's a competent player, I guess I wouldn't expect him to lurk-scum? I know I would never lurk-scum even if it's a good strategy.

[acryon]

idk I feel Karnage's play here is similar to my own as scum (tempted to reference the aforementioned Newbie game again ), where you just aim to sound town by tone/reasoning and post & do as little as you can get away with. He's getting away with not doing a whole lot it seems!

I don't doubt that it's a possibility he's scum here, and if I don't see some real action from him soon, I'll be ready to move there too. I guess I just would expect more from a player of his tenure as either alignment honestly.

[acryon]

Since he's a competent player, I guess I wouldn't expect him to lurk-scum? I know I would never lurk-scum even if it's a good strategy.

Some people just lurk because of RL, though.

-Smart

I agree, and I'm not giving him a pass for it. I just see the lurking as null at the moment.

I know it isn't. Don't think I necessarily need a vote to make my pushes , but yeah I'll be more active in a while.

I think {Acryon, Eve, Karnage, 1/0} are all town.
Molla is also town.
GL, perhaps.


PoE of {Skitter, Rex} then.

Switch Eve and GL and it's the same for me.

I feel like here you are indicating a strong (or at least stronger) townread on Karnage.

This is true, but it's basically entirely gut. Gut-reads don't get unlimited grace.

Karnage I just had a gut-town read on and there frankly just hasn't been enough content to move the needle for me.

ok so let's talk about this
can you point to where you got the gutread from
cuz frankly i think everything that karnage has failed to do from like mid-day1 outweighs the fact that his early day-1 was kinda townie

Like you indicated, it's basically all early day 1 for me as well. The rest of the day was null for me.

also saus is honestly probably going to get replaced at this point, and he's pretty clearly not reading the game
putting votes on him feels like a bit of a waste @acryon @bbmolla

I mean maybe, but we've got plenty of day that I'm not concerned with that at the moment.

VOTE: karnage

Are you scumreading Karnage?

You basically didn't mention him after your pressure vote yesterday and now presumably he is your strongest scumread, can you explain your progression there?

- Smarter

he's doing practically nothing and seems content to float and be prodded to give haphazard reads and doesn't, like, do anything with them
basically had no real push/influence/care about the end-of-day lynch yesterday
the gamestate feels dead and like scum aren't doing anything and karnage kinda fits that picture
weird interactions with nom

Doesn't Sauce fit a lot of this picture too?

[acryon]

Can someone else look at Eve's and Karnage's interactions and tell me what they think?

They both have basically kept each other as town/null-town the whole game with very little actual interaction.

These couple posts from Karnage say a lot about where my mind is headed:

I think I'd prefer an allomancer lynch than eve but I'm going to take another look at each of them

Eve!

maybe but I need to go back and look at skitter again first

[acryon]

Keep in mind he never went and took a look and came back with anything. Just kept pushing off the idea of an Eve lynch with no reasoning other than some version of "reasoning is coming".

[acryon]

Same Karnage!

[acryon]

I don't agree with that.

[acryon]

Call me a purist, but I prefer to pretend all meta-related things to the game itself are NAI.

[acryon]

Doesn't bode well for the game though. This day has already been rough, and now we're looking at potential back-to-back replacements.

[acryon]

@Mod

V/LA until Monday morning CDT.

[acryon]

Sooo you guys were busy...Reading through now.

[acryon]

So when I sent the PM saying I'd replace in, I was starting to catch up on reading and I may or may not have spent 8.5 hours reading everything. Then I made the mistake of sleeping and I forgot all the points I was gonna bring up. So while I go skim back through a few ISOs to refresh my memory, I'll drop the summary of it here:

VOTE: Acryon

I don't know how this slot has slipped under people's radars but I'm really not seeing how this slot is town.

Oh boy this is a twist in the read-through.

In terms of responding to the case, there weren't really any direct questions, but I'm happy to respond to some if they have them. Otherwise looks like it's just based on whether I'm genuine or not, and I can't argue that.

A scumfuck never thinks a day 1 PR claim in this setup is a viable mislynch. Whatever scum pushes that faces a flash wagon when Allo claims. Just cash out with the soft claim..

Doesn't this make it even weirder for scum!GL to point out the soft?

I also feel she has this indignant vibe (similar to Lilith) and it doesn't match with survivalism so much as genuine frustration with people disagreeing with her or making faulty assumptions, I generally think that's quite hard to fake, scum either underdo it or it winds up feeling more forced and performative

Isn't scum also

genuinely

frustrated with people not agreeing with them?

Again -

THE VOTES DO NOT FOLLOW ORDINARY VOTING RULES BECAUSE HALF THE TIME WE WERE DEBATING WHO SHOULD BE ON WHAT WAGON AND NEGOTIATING WHEN/WHERE TO VOTE

Yeah I have a hard time putting any real stock into VCA today because of the circumstances of day 1. People were on/off the wagons because of the blocs.

[acryon]

Ok so reading through Titus was a wild-ride. My read changed a bit as I went through, but ultimately my vote is sticking. A couple key items.

"The slip" (1502) - This feels manufactured to me. It's even an individual post to point out something that she could have very easily just checked with two clicks. Coupled with 152, this feels like a get-townpoints-quick scheme.

VCA - VCA when done well is valuable. I believe Titus can do it well. As others have pointed out, trying to apply normal tenets of VCA (even if Titus says they factored in the twists) just doesn't make sense with how our day 1 went. Auro was ordering people on and off the wagon, some never joined wagons they otherwise would have for that reason, and votes sat maybe more than normal because of that as well. I don't envy Titus' position here, because the alternative is reading through 60 pages to come up with some reads, and that's not something I would enjoy either.

[acryon]

Doesn't this make it even weirder for scum!GL to point out the soft?

No. Once GL realized the soft, an Allomancer lynch was dead and the N1 nk was sealed. Why wouldn't scum GL point it out to look like he's scum hunting.

Because pointing out a softclaim doesn't look like scumhunting? GL didn't question it or use it for scumhunting--he just highlighted it.

[acryon]

Doesn't this make it even weirder for scum!GL to point out the soft?

No. Once GL realized the soft, an Allomancer lynch was dead and the N1 nk was sealed. Why wouldn't scum GL point it out to look like he's scum hunting.

Because pointing out a softclaim doesn't look like scumhunting? GL didn't question it or use it for scumhunting--he just highlighted it.

Of course, because GL isn't actually scum hunting. That sort of soft pointing out just looks like it. That's my point. There's no town reason to out a soft. As scum it's please verify so I can shoot the PR.

Ok except that by pointing to it, town has

confirmation

that he saw it, and we know by the NK that scum saw it. Not sure addressing it directly for the purposes of confirming it for himself is worth putting himself into the scumpool.

[acryon]

Is he really in the scumpool though? The only two people pushing GL are being return pushed as suspects.

Not at the moment, but he couldn't know that yesterday. Anyone that didn't comment on it yesterday gets some level of deniability--GL gets none. I'm just not sure why you would want to be so closely connected to the most pivotal post in the game. Even if you could gain good info as scum there, why raise your profile that high?

[acryon]

Is he really in the scumpool though? The only two people pushing GL are being return pushed as suspects.

Not at the moment, but he couldn't know that yesterday. Anyone that didn't comment on it yesterday gets some level of deniability--GL gets none. I'm just not sure why you would want to be so closely connected to the most pivotal post in the game. Even if you could gain good info as scum there, why raise your profile that high?

Because it confirms or denies the cop, the only major PR in the game. Killing the TA makes the game mountainous which 2 v 7 scum win a lot of the time.

That's true, but that wagon was ready to wrap. Allo got an additional vote AFTER the soft, so it's clear not many saw it at the time. If anything, pointing it out stops the wagon.

And is scum!GL really brazen enough to say this:

I don't see how the Allo situation gets better tomorrow either, so at the very least we remove a distraction.

I think the Allo situation resolves itself

[acryon]

Pointing out the soft doesn't stop the wagon. You illustrated that. It's Allo's threat of claiming that stops his wagon.

Actually it was me backing off for unrelated reasons (call me thick, but I didn't see the soft) that first curbed the wagon. If GL wasn't sure if Allo was TA or not, why not just stay silent and let him

actually

claim from wagon pressure rather than get involved at all? Why risk your neck?

GL is basically saying scum shoot Allomancer if he's the TA. That's pretty common sense and NAI. GL's quote isn't scummy to say Allo is self-resolving because it's true.

Ok except people weren't talking about him being the TA. I know you're just jumping into the game now and seeing things in hindsight, but it was certainly

not

some generally accepted thought that he had claimed TA. Multiple people (including myself at points) were still pushing for an Allo lynch.

[acryon]

The soft was so blatant to GL it might as well have been a claim.

Thank you for giving me the inner thoughts of GL. I think if he was really

that

confident in it, he would've pushed a bit harder against Allo suspicion as either alignment.

You pushed after the soft is irrellevant. Scum knew it wasn't going through. Just because you didn't see something doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Thank you for giving me the inner thoughts of scum. As others have pointed out,

multiple

people continued to vote/push Allo at various points in the day after the soft. So you can waltz in here with full information of a day and talk about how obvious it was, but that's pretty easy for you to say, isn't it?

I feel so frustrated with everyone. I feel like this is a pride thing. Town collectively at this point has wagoned wrong twice (Allo and Nom) and threatened three more times wrong (Carnage/AH, me, Skitter). What is it going to take to get people to listen rather than be stuck in stubborn pride?

It must be really tough being omniscient. Doesn't sound like much fun.

[acryon]

Well here's the problem Titus: there are only two people in this game that have perfect information. So if you're actually town, you may want to stop acting like you're one of them.

[acryon]

Well here's the problem Titus: there are only two people in this game that have perfect information. So if you're actually town, you may want to stop acting like you're one of them.

I did put a suggestion in case I was wrong, but you guys are acting like you have information which says GL is innocent and refusing to even consider he was scum.

I did look at the votes assuming I was wrong too. No one engaged that either. It was just objections to my methods because y'all knew better and "leashed scum".

I mean I can't speak for others, but I just disagree with your reasoning.

It's certainly possible I'm wrong too, but I just don't think VCA is even close to the best way to try and analyze that day 1 given the dynamics at play. So IMO, it is fundamentally flawed.

GL is not conftown to me. But I also think you might be scum, so that certainly makes me less likely to get on board with what you have to offer, especially if I fundamentally disagree with it.

[acryon]

It's OK to disagree with my VCA. It's not OK to try and act like you're better than me because you think the VC game leashed scum when its obvious from the two town wagons that scum were fine going along with it.

I scumhunt differently and use words as a backstop. No one engages those either. I commented on how Aurora is distancing from GL. I get crickets. No one even asking what I mean. It's like trying to stop a train with my bare hands. I have to be Supergirl.

I definitely don't think that I am better than you. I also don't necessarily believe the VC game leashed scum; I just think the way the day went

significantly

impacted when and where people were voting enough that helpful VCA is going to be impossible.

I shouldn't let my heart win here, but I think I'm going to for now. I need to go back to the drawing board.

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

Doubling down on "I've suspected Auro all along" and then linking times you disagreed with Auro aint great though GL I gotta tell ya

I mean, it's perfectly possible that he had those suspicions and never was really obvious about them. Since he said "low-key" that's kind of what it implies.

-Smart

Yes but I do agree that's not a great look. Doesn't feel very townie to proactively provide justification like that.

[acryon]

Yes but I do agree that's not a great look. Doesn't feel very townie to proactively provide justification like that.

Why not? Scum care about establishing a consistent narrative, town care about sharing what they actually think. If GL actually thought that Auro was scummy but never said so, he'd still want to point it out, whereas if he's scum wouldn't he be afraid that people would call him out for pulling that out of the blue?

-Smart

Well that's kind of to my point though. Scum do care about establishing a consistent narrative, so providing his own justification kind of supports that no?

Titus, what is your read on skitter?

-Smart

Lock town. Skitter doesn't lead like he has if he's scum.

So is this purely meta or you think the general way skitter has lead is town?

[acryon]

Skitter is a she. And what do you mean by "lead"?

-Smart

Except for EoD 1, Skitter has been front and center on each wagon she pushes. That's a leader unafraid of consequences.

Not going to argue with this.

Well that's kind of to my point though. Scum do care about establishing a consistent narrative, so providing his own justification kind of supports that no?

Well, if he is scum trying to keep a consistent narrative, then he probably was thinking earlier as he was disagreeing with Auro "I'm going to start thinking Auro is scummier here." So it doesn't matter that the evidence he gave wasn't really compelling to prove that. I just don't think as scum he'd retroactively make up the Auro scumread and try to pretend that he was always planning to talk about it.

-Smart

I guess I just think if a player is active enough, they could probably weave together some posts of theirs to support any kind of read on anyone. I know for myself how much I've jumped back and forth on people.

[acryon]

Was hoping to be able to take a look again today but can't get to it.

[acryon]

In terms of responding to the case, there weren't really any direct questions, but I'm happy to respond to some if they have them. Otherwise looks like it's just based on whether I'm genuine or not, and I can't argue that.

...you've gotta be kidding me. Are you trolling me? This is the most blatant hand-waving away someone's suspicions on them that I've ever seen.

Like, what person actually reads through someone else's reason to think they're scum and thinks "oh, they don't directly ask me any specific questions, I don't have anything I can respond to here"?

I am saying that you are scum and should die.

I have provided reasons based on your posts and provided analysis as to why you are scum because of things you have said and done. The absolute

bare minimum

you can do is say "hey you're wrong" and why I'm wrong. The

productive

thing you can do is look through them and say "hey, this person looks like town/scum from this push on me" and sort me.

The absolutely tilting thing you can do is just look at it and say "hey none of the questions marks seem directly addressed to me so imma just ignore it".

Sorry--not my intent to tilt you, but the majority of your case is stuff you think doesn't look genuine. My argument to that would be "well it is." You did ask a legit question at the end about what made me back off Auro. I backed off Auro because there was a fundamental issue with my SR on him. It's true that he wasn't a town-read for me just yet at that point, but there's a whole lot of grey between scum-read I want to push and town-read.

I get you being frustrated that your case was ignored, but I'm not sure your frustration should be with me. We're going to have to agree to disagree on a lot of your thoughts because I know my alignment and you don't.

My gut says you're town simply because I'm not sure there's a lot of equity in replacing in and immediately going after someone that is pretty widely town-read. And I frankly don't feel like you were trying to misrep me. You're gut is off, but it doesn't feel like scum.

Auro

I'm not sure I like his play today. Yesterday he had a clear focus, working on the town and copblocs. That is moot today, so his play must be different one way or the other, but I'm just not sure the tone feels super towny.

[acryon]

also Titus if you

actually read

D1 and GL/Auro interactions you'd also see that we're pretty transparently not partners, I'm not capable as scum of faking the level of frustration I felt with him and the degree to which we engaged about the game on a wide variety of fronts

Shoot this pings.

[acryon]

also Titus if you

actually read

D1 and GL/Auro interactions you'd also see that we're pretty transparently not partners, I'm not capable as scum of faking the level of frustration I felt with him and the degree to which we engaged about the game on a wide variety of fronts

Shoot this pings.

pings in what sense? That you disagree with it, or that scum is more likely to say it?

Our ISO combined has 570+ posts, of which I'd guess conservatively at least 80-100 (if not more) are us directly talking to each other, often walling, and constantly pushing for further explanation or pressuring on thoughts.

Again, look at the last scum game I played with Atari, we sent maybe 5-6 total questions towards each other and they were all pretty tame one-liners. I'm an engineer, not a drama student, I'm straight up not capable of the degree of theatre required to have the combined ISO I have with Auro this game. Like this would easily be my greatest scumgame ever played if I'm scum with Auro here.

Things I disagree with don't ping. Scum pings.

Self-meta makes me very uncomfortable. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like proactively offering up reasons for why you would or wouldn't do something as scum. It's total WIFOM, and I don't think town really needs to do it.

[acryon]

being aware of one's own capabilities isn't a bad thing

I'm aware of my capabilities. I don't feel the need to explain them to people as a defense. The overexplaining just feels

odd

.

Pedit: 1823 is what I was referring to with the proactive justification.

It feels nearly impossible here that both Auro and GL are town. I just don't see town defending and interacting the way they have, which supports my initial suspicion in 696.

[acryon]

Self-meta makes me very uncomfortable. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like proactively offering up reasons for why you would or wouldn't do something as scum. It's total WIFOM, and I don't think town really needs to do it.

I disagree. Self-meta can be untrustworthy, but if you're town the worst thing that will happen is that people ignore your self-meta. If you're scum and you lie, the worst thing that can happen is you get called out and lynched-- and because of that, self-meta is accurate a lot more often than you would think.

I'm no expert on scum-GL, but I have played a few games with him as scum (I think? Maybe it was just TM2018 actually). I don't recall him going out of his way to have long drawn-out interactions with his partners. Doesn't mean he's incapable of it, but I'm inclined to believe that he'd have to be having an awesome scumgame to pull that off. (Which is possible. In Baton Pass I repeatedly insisted that were I to be scum I'd be playing a far better scumgame than I ever had before, which I honestly believed.)

-Smart

Except the problem is rarely do people actually play significantly differently as scum vs. town, which is why meta is so bad in the first place. I think people play differently from game to game based on player composition, IRL stuff, flow of the game, etc. And that's the stuff that isn't considered in meta reviews.

FWIW, I am not entirely convinced GL vs. Auro is scum-theater, but

something

feels off there and I don't think it's TvT.

[acryon]

I just don't see town defending and interacting the way they have

Unfortunately, townies are capable of an extraordinarily wide range of behaviors. To say you "don't see" it sounds like tunnel vision.

-Smart

I completely agree they are, but if that's going to be your response then nothing is ever scummy.

[acryon]

I completely agree they are, but if that's going to be your response then nothing is ever scummy.

Well, no. Because there's a difference between saying someone is scummy and saying "X and Y cannot both be town." They can be scummy-- in the sense that they are more likely than random to be scum-- but to say that they can't both be town is a much stronger claim and to me indicates bias.

Pedit: that's great Auro. Where is that from?

-Smart

I didn't say they

can't

be town. I said I don't see it.

Assume I am town, then think from my perspective what in my interactions with GL should show that he is scum, then vice-versa

I'm not going to attempt to sort through the walls, because I don't have time, but going through your ISO with regard to GL is interesting. It's never entirely clear how you're feeling on him. You seem to call him scummy at points, but never push him. I'm still not entirely sure your read on the slot. You indicated "meh-town" a while back, but recent posts seem to imply you're stronger on that read?

Re: GL

106 is really interesting in this context. Throws some townpoints Auro's way but reluctant to actually give a townread.
509. Here we have Auro as a "meh" read, much like Auro's read for GL.
721 Auro is mentioned in a group of people that we should look into if Allo flips town.

Also I was interested a bit in the whole meta thing, and just for some evidence of how differently people can play as scum, here's two different scum-games of GL's where he played differently, and two quotes from them. So read these and then tell me why GL's self-meta posts should excite me.

i'm definitely lurkier as scum

but it's in a "one post per day" kinda lurky, not "completely offsite for 3 days" kind

also I'm trying to fix that because it's too easy of a meta tell. my last scum game was Gators at the Gates and I was fairly active and fairly townread there - was really only lynched cause four slots confed themselves on D2 and Vedith (the prime mislynch target) hail mary towntold himself at L-1 and I was the deadline compromise lynch before we had time to react.

I tried to play this game a bit more tonally town and less agenda driven than I usually play scum, it got me some townreads but I didn't capitalize well enough with it. sorry Lycan :/

[acryon]

After reading through quite a bit, if just one of Auro/GL is scum, I think it's Auro, but I think I could see either. Both seem to throw some amount of suspicion at each other but neither ever makes a move to push, despite both being very active.

I suspected Auro Day 1, but he talked me out of it due to all the copbloc stuff he was doing and the WIFOM around that.

[acryon]

It's never entirely clear how you're feeling on him.

"Scum in Skitter/Titus, otherwise I think GL"

How is that not clear enough? What do you want, like percentages or something?

For someone who is a tertiary scum-read, you seem to be giving him a lot trust. Do you see why that's confusing? He's "meh-town", but he's also apparently one of your top scumreads, but he's also one of the key people you keep engaging with. Your stance on him is

still

unclear.

Pedit: Oof.

[acryon]

"Pushing him" while your vote sat on Eve the whole time. I know you already commented on this, but again that's a confusing position.

[acryon]

If you

still

don't see why your stances are unclear, i"ll help you with these posts from you 2 posts apart.

"Scum in Skitter/Titus, otherwise I think GL"

VOTE: Crayon

[acryon]

"Pushing him" while your vote sat on Eve the whole time. I know you already commented on this, but again that's a confusing position.

I belong to the school of thought that a vote isn't necessarily required to push someone. A vote is a tool, yes, but I believe my pushes are equally effective even if I'm not voting the person.
Do you think the person I'm pushing thinks, "oh, so they're not voting me, I guess their posts pushing me don't mean much"?
Wagon building is a different matter.

I agree with this, and the part where your push lacks teeth is in regards to wagon building. Votes follow votes a lot more often than they follow vote-less pushes.

If you

still

don't see why your stances are unclear, i"ll help you with these posts from you 2 posts apart.

"Scum in Skitter/Titus, otherwise I think GL"

VOTE: Crayon

The quoted was what I was saying earlier, which seems pretty clear, which somehow you found unclear.
The vote is a result of your recent posting, my stance on Titus shifting, and my beginning to doubt my earlier evaluation of you.

It's not that I found it unclear, but if things had deviated significantly since then (which it's clear now they have), it feels odd for you to leave that out.

[acryon]

So is Titus above or below GL on your scumlist?

[acryon]

Self-meta makes me very uncomfortable. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like proactively offering up reasons for why you would or wouldn't do something as scum. It's total WIFOM, and I don't think town really needs to do it.

literally nai, i do this as both alignments all the time

That's fair, but the manner in which he did it still makes me uncomfortable.

Acryon what happened to your Eve scumread? You spent most of D1 voting Eve and still seemed suspicious of her D2, but have barely interacted with her or pushed her today

My big problem with Eve is I just can't make a case based on her play. D1 and today as well has been uninspiring from her, but it's just a lot harder to move on because there's so little there. I frankly have very little reason to believe Eve is town based on her posts, but I just don't know where to start on a case against her.

Cuz like, we're at 7/2. Two mislynches to play with so we can get more info off of flips to work with and it's not like there are other PRs who are at risk of getting shot tonight. So let's just lynch a slot that'll give us the best associatives to go into tomorrow with and we'll see who scum wants to flip and go for a solve there?

If someone's trying to read or do something today then I'm down to wait for them to do what they wanna do but otherwise what are we doing?

So what in your opinion are the slots that you think give us the best associatives?

[acryon]

I just don't think I can get behind a Titus lynch today.

VOTE: Eve

How about we try this. Someone tell me why Eve is town.

[acryon]

My big problem with Eve is I just can't make a case based on her play. D1 and today as well has been uninspiring from her, but it's just a lot harder to move on because there's so little there. I frankly have very little reason to believe Eve is town based on her posts, but I just don't know where to start on a case against her.

So I was hiding behind the Copbloc gimmick and otherwise nothing.
Eve's play is uninspiring (I note that you're using this a second time)

Can you explain once more some of your *townreads* so I get a feel for what you look for in town?

Here is a full readslist.
Town: BBmolla, TLDNE
Lean-town: Atarashi, Skitter, Titus, GL
Lean-scum: Auro
Scum: Eve

BBmolla

gave me early townvibes, and that hasn't changed. The thought process feels town. I don't see a scum agenda in his posts.

TLDNE

is similar. I haven't taken much issue with their logic. I haven't always agreed with them, but again nothing in their posts have really pinged me as fueled by a scum agenda.

Atarashi

- Karnage gave me townvibes early on, but ultimately that was weakened by what felt like a lack of effort (NAI I know, but I just would've expected more). Atarashi's entrance has been good. I just don't see scum taking the time to read through and put together a case on someone like me when there are a million other low-hanging fruit.

Skitter

I have been back and forth on. More recent posting I have been on board with. Doesn't seem interested in making friends and finding people to agree with which pings town to me in this game.

Titus

felt like scum early on, especially replacing in for Sauce who gave me little reason to believe was town. After going back and forth with Titus, her thought process feels town. Admittedly I'm not as confident on this one, but her willingness to go down roads that feel difficult strikes me as town.

GL

is very close to null, but I don't want to create a null category. This is the slot I've had the hardest time with. Some things majorly ping me as town and others have majorly pinged me as scum. I'm really not sure here.

Auro

I have spoken on already.

Eve

I just have no reason to really believe is town. I don't think they are scumhunting. I don't think they're working toward progressing reads or the gamestate for town.

[acryon]

It's interesting that you have BBMolla as a top townread and Eve as a top scumread, when I parse their gameplay as pretty similar.

Do you think BBMolla is working towards progressing reads or the gamestate for town?
Do you think BBMolla is scumhunting?

What is Eve's scum agenda?
When you think of an answer, also explain to me why the same agenda does not fit to BBMolla.

BBmolla has posts that seem to indicate to me that he is thinking about the game. Here is a sampling of posts: 265, 273, 507,520, 1658, 1760.

I agree that a cursory glance makes BB and Eve's games feel similar, but if you actually look, you'll see not only effort but thought and original insight in these kinds of posts from BB. Everything from Eve feels a lot more surface-y. They've been pretty similar in terms of activity, but BB's posts actually feel like town thought-process and trying to figure things out; I don't see that from Eve.

[acryon]

To directly answer your question, Eve's scum agenda is to skate by without questioning things too much, and allow people to townread her for being "too relaxed to be scum". I don't think that applies to BBmolla because he's questioned many things that others are on board with.

Pedit: 1682 and 1690 were both directly answers to questions--I'm not going to give credit there. 1715 is ok. 1847 is barely above the surface. 1956 doesn't help if I think you two could be scumpartners...

[acryon]

To add to 1956, it just supports my idea that she's not scumhunting. She points out an inconsistency but then sheeps your vote? Who is she scumhunting there?

[acryon]

BBmolla has posts that seem to indicate to me that he is thinking about the game.

O...kay? I've seen some unflattering things said about people's scum capabilities but this may be the worst

-Smart

Maybe I should have added some modifiers to this, but I mean thinking about the game in the sense that there is an interest in solving it.

[acryon]

This goes without saying, but scum do not "think" about the game the same way town does, because there is nothing for them to solve.

[acryon]

I do think I get the type of read you're trying to explain, though. It's just a generic solve-y feel that you can't really give specifics on. I've had those before; they tend to be more indicative of player skill in general than of alignment.

-Smart

That's possible, but I'm not sure that Eve's posts feel empty because of a lack of skill.

[acryon]

Well, sure. But scum can still produce thoughts that might be similar to what they would think as town, and a lot of times it's hard to tell the two apart.

If you could pick a few of the posts you linked and try to explain why they're towny, that would be good.

-Smart

Sure thing. There are a couple in there that are emblematic of why I think BB is town.

I think 273 is a really good town-thought. Attempting to see if people are just letting scum!you sneak by because of effort.

520 similarly is asking people to re-evaluate their reads. These kinds of things feel very town to me, because they're not driving an agenda as much as they are making each person do something on their own and also challenging popular reads.

Pedit: I agree. I don't think the emptiness of Eve's posts per-se is why I think she is scum. It's the gut feeling of why those posts are empty and how that supports her scum agenda.

[acryon]

Answers to questions which were a cause of her stating a stance or voting somewhere. They absolutely count. Dismissing 1956 as valid thought is if your reasoning is that you think we are scumbuddies...

Well I'm glad we disagree.

You recognize that one inconsistency doesn't mean they're auto scum, yes? It's possible to find a top townread of yours say something that felt off, and ask them to make sure?

@Smart: While such reads are definitely a thing, I feel like the conclusions of these reads with their confidences feels pretty off from Crayon. He's pushing people for things like "they questioned X slot but also said X is town", or "they pushed Y slot, but didn't have a vote on them", this is ick.

I think this is actually a pretty big misrep from you.

[acryon]

I think 273 is a really good town-thought. Attempting to see if people are just letting scum!you sneak by because of effort.

That's interesting. That's the kind of post that I think most people would call out as scummy because it's trying to break down a universal townread and keep us in the lynchpool.

I would disagree with that hypothetical argument, but I also disagree with the claim that it's a town-thought, because it very well could be that he is scum who thought the townreads on us weren't justified and wanted to try to attack them. Being scum and seeing people be right for the wrong reasons can be very annoying.

That's possible, but that line of thought (especially the last part) as scum doesn't strike me as coming from BB's slot this game. Just doesn't fit at all with the rest of his game.

520 similarly is asking people to re-evaluate their reads. These kinds of things feel very town to me, because they're not driving an agenda as much as they are making each person do something on their own and also challenging popular reads.

This one is more reasonable, since we know that the read he was challenging was wrong and this was before Allo softed.

But I wouldn't really call these posts as having a genuine thought process that is solving-motivated and hard to fake, like you seemed to be implying. I think it's more that you think that's the type of post that scum probably wouldn't want to make, in the second case because they would want the Allo mislynch to go through. That does make sense, but it's also WIFOM since of course scum want to do things that it doesn't look like scum would do. But I do agree that 520 is > rand town.

-Smart

Yeah admittedly a lot of this for me is gut. Some of those posts I just strongly feel from my experience are indicative of town, and I just frankly don't feel the same way reading Eve's posts. I specifically recall feeling multiple times after reading BB's posts: "that's town".

[acryon]

In post 212, acryon wrote:
In post 163, GuiltyLion wrote:
If [acryon] himself can see that his post didn't look like scumhunting then he needs to give more explanation as to whether and/or why he finds me suspicious for calling that out.

1. I'm really not a fan of people making analogies like this that are (self-admittedly, and correctly admitted) bad without elaborating as to why it's an accurate analogy almost immediately after. It's a cheap distracting tactic from back in my high school debate days.

2. But to revisit the analogy anyway since other people seem to have liked it - we're ~1500 posts beyond the planting of this proverbial garden. Ask yourselves this question: what's come of this proposed scumhunting of Acryon's that pinged so many of you? The veggies have grown, ripened, and rotted back down to compost and literally nothing has come from it. Unless it's 'still growing', in which case GL's argument of acryon planting 'rocks instead of seeds' seems pretty likely.

Hey acryon, before you go criticizing eve's scumhunting why dont you respond to this part of my original casing against you where I question if your scumhunting is genuine?

Again, I'm not sure what I'm responding to here? You think my analogy was not only bad (won't argue with you there), but disingenuous (don't agree obviously). Then you poised a question to the rest of the town, not me. So not sure what I'm responding to there either?

You recognize that one inconsistency doesn't mean they're auto scum, yes? It's possible to find a top townread of yours say something that felt off, and ask them to make sure?

@Smart: While such reads are definitely a thing, I feel like the conclusions of these reads with their confidences feels pretty off from Crayon. He's pushing people for things like "they questioned X slot but also said X is town", or "they pushed Y slot, but didn't have a vote on them", this is ick.

I think this is actually a pretty big misrep from you.

Can you clarify what you're saying that auro is misrepping?

- Smarter

Saying I am pushing him or anyone else for "they questioned X slot but also said X is town" is not close to accurate. I want to see the post from me that he thinks fits in with that quote. The 2nd one is also not what I have an issue with. Lots of people push without a vote, but the way Auro is doing it is different. He has been "pushing" GL for 2 days now but it's never gone anywhere 1) because he hasn't applied a vote and 2) because he hasn't attempted to get others involved. So it just feels like posturing.

Acryon what happened to your Eve scumread? You spent most of D1 voting Eve and still seemed suspicious of her D2, but have barely interacted with her or pushed her today

My big problem with Eve is I just can't make a case based on her play. D1 and today as well has been uninspiring from her, but it's just a lot harder to move on because there's so little there. I frankly have very little reason to believe Eve is town based on her posts, but I just don't know where to start on a case against her.

I just don't think I can get behind a Titus lynch today.

VOTE: Eve

How about we try this. Someone tell me why Eve is town.

Lol what..

Previously you said you thought Skitter/Rex was the scumteam, what changed?

- Smarter

That was 600 posts ago. Skitter was based on PoE, and Sauce was based on my original issues with the slot plus not liking Titus's insistence on sticking to VCA I felt was flawed. Through my conversations with Titus I feel a fair bit better about that slot, and Titus also helped convince me skitter was likely town. I think 1833 was/is pretty compelling. That coupled with Auro's play over the past half-day moved him down and Eve has never been a strong townread for me.

Skitter, as an exercise, I'd like you to pull up one of Crayon's scum games and do an ISO skim - tell me if you think there's an obvious difference in perceived sincerity.

I'm not sure that will help you sort anything. I do try pretty hard to play the same style as either alignment. You might just see differences based on my IRL availability and the game comp. Although if you find some key differences between a scum game and how I'm playing here, I'm happy to be proven wrong

[acryon]

@Everyone NOT voting Eve:

Point me to why you townread her.

[acryon]

Also if you're really interested in my meta, I do actually have most of my games listed in my wiki.

[acryon]

Hey Auro-

Can you answer my Eve question? Last I can see you thought Eve's vote and read progression felt town. Can you say the same for today? And let's pretend she's not sheeping you.

[acryon]

Yes, I believe I pulled up some posts of hers today and said they appeared like legitimate solving thought and not "surfacey", no?

Sorry you're right. I slotted those in my mind as comparisons to BB as opposed to specifically Eve defense, but obviously they are.

Then I'd like to hear from the others.

[acryon]

...it really shouldn't be that hard to grasp and the question at the end was initially more rhetorical than to "everyone but you", but since you seem to be oblivious to it I'll be more direct:

You were accused of fake scumhunting with a lot of your earlier questioning. You said it was "the start of something" or a basis from which scumhunting can develop. A simple re-reading of the thread shows that literally nothing developed off of your questioning in the ~2000 posts since then, invalidating your initial defense. Do you agree with this assessment? If not, what information/ leads, if any, developed off of your early game questioning?

Getting a little abrasive here, but I'll continue to assume you're acting in good faith and attribute that to your lack of sunlight having found yourself down such a dark tunnel.

Unlike scum, I do not have a plan for exactly how the game will play out. Things change as my reads develop. The only point of my analogy was to say that early game for me (and most) is just about asking questions to start to build to things and that it's silly in my opinion to be critical of that early process. I actually think I've been fairly clear (clearer than most) on a lot of my reads and what's driven them and how they have developed.

I absolutely don't agree with your assessment, because it feels like you're playing dumb about the idea that scumhunting might look different on post 200 vs. post 2000. The game develops, players develop, reads develop (reads that I've shared mind you).

[acryon]

I personally think its ridiculous to ask me to spend my time doing what you're asking when, in my opinion, I worked out a lot of that in the thread, but I'll humor you.

Let's go back to the original that started all of this.

There were two question in the post in question:

I thought you weren't gonna RVS?

-Smart

I have the feeling this isn't random.
Just a feeling.

Is it actually just a feeling?

When we're pretty firmly in RVS, saying someone thinks a post "isn't random" is saying a lot. For nom to make such a claim, there needed to be some more information. This one nom never answered, so I followed up in 109.

I actually explained how my thoughts on this progressed pretty clearly in 111. This interaction at least showed me that nom had a history with skitter so there was likely a lot of personal experience that led her to feel that way. Ultimately I didn't glean a ton about alignment at the time, although I think I came back to this a bit later on.

I’d like to hear your thoughts on nom too.

I don't like the 2 naked votes then a "pagetop"

I would like to see them get more involved in the game

Literally just completed page 1 and you had an issue with someone's involvement in the game already?

This one karnage responded with a throwaway "uhh yeah" which caused me to follow up with:

Literally just completed page 1 and you had an issue with someone's involvement in the game already?

uhh... yeah

Since it sounds like you have experience with her, do those early posts ping you for meta reasons?

Which he responded to with "Nope. I'm terrible with meta so I generally disregard it"

The first question came from it seeming odd to have an issue with someone's involvement

that

early in the game. My goal in asking was to try to gauge whether he really believed that (and why) or if he was just shading. His curt response and then the double-down on it felt genuine to me. Scum at that point I might expect to try to come up with a more nuanced explanation for why certain people as scum are less active early on, etc.

[acryon]

He doesn't have any solid reads, but his posting before that seemed to indicate confidence in certain reasoning. I disagree with his evaluations on various slots including myself, Eve, Molla (I townread Molla for other reasons, but I have a problem with his evaluation of things). The whole "Auro/GL isn't TvT, I don't know where, I guess Auro" seems fake. I've had MUCH more to my play yesterday than the copbloc thing: that play doesn't purely revolve around mechanics, it means I actually have to identify town and scum candidates before I dictate it, which I was actively doing - so dismissing all of that play because the cop's dead feels disingenuous. When I made a U-Turn on Titus, suddenly Eve got voted by both Skitter and Acryon, and their reasoning for Eve!scum would apply earlier too: where was that when Titus was being pushed? I feel like Titus is town, and Skitter/Crayon were both just lulling around thinking that lynch would go through; when I disbanded that, suddenly both of them think I'm second likeliest scum, and both Eve. A little fishy, no?

I like this post a lot

Acryon also tried to discredit my "Auro-GL cannot be a team" logic by invalidating the entire concept of self-meta, rather than looking critically at my point that if we are the team we engaged in the most labored, obnoxious, thread spammy theater for hundreds of posts on D1 which I simply basically never do as scum

I'm sorry but I've seen thread spammy theater before. I'm glad you supposedly don't engage in that as scum, but even then there's a first time for everything isn't there? That's why I had a problem with that kind of defense--it just doesn't mean anything.

[acryon]

why is acryon probably town on a Titus scum flip?

Crayon was on the Titus wagon, and acted to vote Eve after I unvoted Titus and voted him.

I voted Eve after GL reminded me I have zero reason to not be voting her.

[acryon]

we are the team we engaged in the most labored, obnoxious, thread spammy theater for hundreds of posts on D1 which I simply basically never do as scum

Well to be fair I'm always up for some spicy SvS theater as scum

Red-handed.