Hot Potato Mafia - Game Over

[armlx]

/confirm.

[armlx]

I'm a kitty cat and I confirm, confirm, confirm.

I feel there's a song reference here I'm just not getting.

[armlx]

everything's a song reference. why say anything? you'll get it sung for you sooner or later.

Boo.

[armlx]

everything's a song reference. why say anything? you'll get it sung for you sooner or later.

Boo.

Baa.

That explains your previous post.

[armlx]

Korts makes a good point.

[armlx]

You type potato, I type potato.

...

Is it me, or does it lose something in the transformation to written medium?

Only because you fail at typing phonetics.

[armlx]

I suggest a voting system, where we effectively vote 2 people to be possible lynches. They then pass the potatoes between each other repeatedly until one dies. If they pass elsewhere, we simply pass all potatoes to them repeatedly till they die.

[armlx]

We've got three potatos though, so why not three people?

I thought about that, but with 3 it might be a little too random.

Suppose one of the potatoes triggers via postcount while we're voting?

Suppose we just toss them around and someone randomly dies while we are doing it? Assuming no one tosses till we tell them, its the exact same thing.

[armlx]

See my policy on Potato throwing before we decide anything.

Fake Vote BM

[armlx]

BM, as you notice, I still have the potato. I have no intention of breaking the rules I set up to try to organize the game. You however do, and as such deserve to be voted off the island.

[armlx]

Wait a sec. I deserve to be voted off a mysterious island because i didnt do exactly what you said? rofl.

You didn't do what I said that a large number of people have agreed is the correct play.

[armlx]

Also, how is letting the potatoes stay put any less random a "lynch" than having the potatoes move around?

I agree with this.

I count....3.
And 2 against. That's barely a majority.

What about all those who are implicitly following the plan by voting instead of just tossing potatoes around?

[armlx]

Skruffs: What exactly is BM's scum meta?

I would like an answer.

Still think BM should be dead.

[armlx]

I guess it makes sense that Skruffs wants BM dead after being beaten by him but it really shouldn't make a difference to the game.

I don't like how BM brought that in to make it seem like a cross game OMGUS.

I'm amazed at how sure DGB and Armlx are that BM is scum.

He deliberately tried to cause mayhem early game in a self preservatory manner.

[armlx]

How do you know it was deliberate?

In the middle of the discussion about how to best use potatoes he just lobs one. How is that not deliberate.

[armlx]

I'm not sure I agree that fooling around and disrupting disscusion is more likely to be done by scum though.

Why? It is anti-town behavior.

[armlx]

I for once am coming around ot agreeing with DGB here. Good catch there q21.

[armlx]

Plus, meta:BM is likely this in most games he plays, so I've heard.

He is loud usually, but not straight up disruptive like that.

It's also attention seeking behavior. Scum is trying to avoid being looked at.

WIFOM.

[armlx]

How about we stop speculating about what caused Skruffs' death and start more speculation on who is scum?

[armlx]

How about we stop speculating about what caused Skruffs' death and start more speculation on who is scum?

I kinda don't understand how we can really pull scum out in this game, but that might just be me not understanding a lot about this game yet either.

If we keep throwing a potato at them they will probably die eventually.

[armlx]

In other words, we throw to the person who threw to Scruffs (q21), then if he turns out innocent, we kill the next person who kills a townie.

Seems poor given the mainly random natures of the potatoes.

[armlx]

Because drawing attention to myself early on is a GREAT move as scum, amirite? Rolling Eyes

You and I both know thats straight up WIFOM.

people just throw them to keep themselves safe (which isn't a scum tell either because nobody wants to die).

Except it is. Scum are much less willing to endanger their life for the group then town simply based on the fact each scum is more valuable to their team.

[armlx]

Am I the only one who sees JohnW's comments as a newbie mistake rather than scummy?

I agree with this statement.

But if you take a look at my play across my 85 completed games on site, you should get the overview that in fact, as scum, i tend to lie lower, and ideally, stay out of focus

Examples? And quite frankly, throwing the potato early would not have dragged you out had I not been so adamant about the plan.

[armlx]

Am I the only one who sees JohnW's comments as a newbie mistake rather than scummy?

I agree with this statement.

I don't. I think it was a very scummy suggestion.

You need to play with more newbs then.

[armlx]

What i dont understand is the bit in italics. Can you please explain?

BM

Sure. If someone blows off a potato with a known or at least assumed trigger on purpose, he'd better have a good reason.

I think anyone who throws a Potato anywhere should have a good reason.

I said this like 10 pages ago.....

[armlx]

Hashbrowns...

Is there a reason that after 15 pages you are yet to make a post containing any real content and make random comments instead.

Second

A lot of people have been saying this for more pages than I care to count.

Any reason then more people haven't been held accountable for their actions?

[armlx]

Baked Yellow Potato:

JohnWWells

Sweet Potato:

Crazy->BM

Russet Potato:

Porochaz --> M4ahem --> Luigi Gangsta --> DarlaBlueEyes --> DGB --> Rally Vincent --> Riceballtail --> q21 --> Skruffs

[armlx]

I wasnt aware that was what you were referring to. You are claiming that i'm being a pain in the ass because i'm not kissing yours? Rolling Eyes
I dont really think you've thought this through. Not alot of point me finding examples until i have something to defend against. Rolling Eyes

BM

I'm claiming you are being deliberately disruptive to the functionings of the town.

As for defend, defend your self meta. Find games where you were lurky as scum and link to them in a post.

Thank you, although that wasn't my point. My point is, there were some people who threw potatoes jokingly or without reason, and whether you think it worthwhile requesting reasons several pages after the initial throws.

Reasons would be nice.

Looking back I am inclined to dislike JWW's last post simply given his early potato toss post.

[armlx]

I'm also disinclined to dismiss JWW as noobish, based on his signup post. Apparently he won a scummy back in 2003, so he must understand the basics.

Good call on that one.

[armlx]

What Korts said. Any Mafia game has to have an informed minority trying to eliminate an uninformed majority, or something similar ala AITP.

[armlx]

Mod, off the wall question, but are all potatoes assured to blow up the person holding them if/when they do?

[armlx]

Armlx: Sorry, we're not going to answer questions like that about the setup.

Thats about what I expected. Worth a shot.

Since there is no good way to really tell how there are scum,

Really? There isn't? How about if we follow the voting system, and enforce the rules of normal mafia so there is? Face-melting technology, right?

[armlx]

Riceballtail and Luigi Gangsta are kuribo's scum partners. This should be obvious to anyone with eyes.

This statement is impossible, because I am town.

Nice defense, thought a nice attack is also warranted.

[armlx]

And i said it almost word for word on the last page.

Then why did you throw for no reason after I first said it, besides self-preservation?

Also, I agree with BM about q21

[armlx]

TSS makes good points. People who oppose plans as he has are usually just scum.

[armlx]

BM, who have you suspected this game that wasn't a straight up OMGUS? I see 1 vote on q21 and thats it.

[armlx]

I'm not all that convinced by TSS's case on Kuribo. The fact is, most of the town has been mainly speculating.

Have they been speculating by just saying things to buck attempts at order?

I think what we need is a bandwagon, that usually gets things moving.

That's sure useful....

[armlx]

I guess not but 'buck attempts at order' is kind of in the eye of the beholder. I mean, hardly anyone is following the voting plan, for instance.

Thats because a vocal few keep disrupting it.

And

Vote Kuribo, FOS BM

while I'm at it. There was another person that belongs here too (maybe Riceball?) but I don't remember who.

[armlx]

Another one who doesn't use the fakevote system? that'd be me, I guess.

Well, you should do that.

[armlx]

Ok, i think you probably ought to explain yourself.

You threw the potato early in response to my plan, which I have said all game set off alarm bells. I agree with TSS on Kuribo, and as for Riceball the whole "Lets not play mafia" thing was a WTF.

The reason I am voting Kuribo over you is I feel my vote is needed there more to ensure nothing dumb happens.

[armlx]

So basically, the entirety of your suspicion of me focusses around the fact i didnt do what you said? rofl.

And by doing so you did exactly what kuribo did: try to buck and semblance of order. Only I actually believe what I said enough to hold the potato.

[armlx]

Its not even worth trying to reason with people here. Clearly less then half the game is trying to play mafia, and the rest are trying to play a Mish Mash game that amounts to nothing more than Russian Roulette.

[armlx]

TSS, I definitely mean the former group.

That said, I doubt we are going to get to the point where we are organized and people listen to me anytime soon. BM is at least attempting to do something related to scum hunting, so that leaves me with 2 real choices: Riceball and kuribo. I'm leaning the later, as the former at least seems to be remotely just disinterested in the concept of the game being mafia.

Throw Potato at kuribo

[armlx]

the trail of potatoes gives a lot more information that vote patterns in this game ever could.

I have come to realize this.

[armlx]

I don't like how he came off with a post that amounted to "lol kuribo is scum" and from there tried to quantify it. It reeks of laziness and backward deduction.

What part of his case is invalid?

[armlx]

The idea that just because someone opposes such a clearly flawed plan makes them scum.

The only thing I see you doing is sitting back naysaying all game. I see no attempts at any logical mafia playing. That is an issue given we have a 20 page game so far. You even go as far as to oppose any plan that might enforce logic upon the game. That is TSS's point.

[armlx]

I oppose a STUPID plan that enforces a pointless strategy upon the game.

The stupid plan of voting in an orderly fashion....

NOT EVERYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH YOU IS MAFIA. NOT EVERYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH YOUR STRATEGIES IS MAFIA.

Yes, but those who try to subvert them without offering their own alternatives are likely to be.

How do we know YOU'RE not scum, armlx?

For the purposes of my plan, how does it matter?

[armlx]

Example: You thought I was scum, sure I have a few votes on me, so you toss me a potato. I immediately toss it elsewhere. Your attempt to kill me fails. Fakevoting is giving the town a false sense of security, which we can little afford.

Except it gets thrown back to you if you do that. Repeatedly. You WILL die eventually, though it may be at the cost of a 1 for 1-2 trade depending on factors out of our control.

That flaw occurs in any plan to kill someone many people find scummy. So, the only thing not doing my plan has is random kills happening via throws, which has about the same success rate as the pure random exploding while the random distribution holds them. I will admit I failed to consider the scum hunting aspects of the throws before, and have come around to the throws + discussion view point.

But, I did offer an alternative, and just because you choose to ignore it doesn't make it any less an alternative.

After TSS called you out I believe.

Of course it matters if you're scum. Scum have a motive for wanting to get the town to follow a poorly conceived plan.

Unless you can deliberately see how my plan would be broken by scum, it should not matter. Scum can and do perform legitimately pro-town actions, especially on the game theory front when different mechanics apply.

[armlx]

So, you think your plan is well thought out, even though a side-effect is that it may result in a pile of dead townies? How do you NOT see how scum can exploit THAT?

The issue is that applies to any plan we institute to throw potatoes in this game. Can you think of one where scum can't just throw to townies if attacked?

Throwing the potatoes should be the ANALYZABLE action, not the response to (mostly bullshit) psuedoanalysis.

Clearly, all other mafia is run on this bullshit pseudo analysis, as thats exactly what I was proposing.

[armlx]

We can put 100 fakevotes on you if we want, but I bet you won't hold on to that potato.

If I was town I would. If I was scum and didn't I would expect at least 1 potato to be thrown at me because of it.

[armlx]

"If I was scum," yes, but if you were scum, you would possibly clearly state "If I was scum..."

I find this interesting that you are using this given you started the thread that listed that as a meta you disliked.

My point is clear though, and you are misrepresenting what I say as WIFOM when I am talking about town actions in response to a scummy outburst, not a scum's actions.

[armlx]

I dislike when it's misused, yes, but when you say "If I was scum..." then it's only a short leap to "I can't possibly be scum because scum would never..."

Its not in this case. My point doesn't even lie in the "If I was scum" part, my point lies in the "If I was town".

[armlx]

Kuribo, you are just misconstruing everything I said under the guise of it being WIFOM. What I actually said is town should and would hold the potato if they are being voted, and if someone just started throwing in that scenario, they would be assumed mafia and retaliatory throws would happen.

NONE of that is WIFOM. Nice misrep.

[armlx]

No, what you're saying is "The town should do what I say or they're scum."

No, I'm saying that if everyone is voting a pro-town player to the extent they would be lynched they would and should hold onto the potato.

How can we kill anyone if the same people just keep holding the potatoes?

We can kill those holding the potatoes, and have them throw them at designated people to try to kill them.

[armlx]

Are you saying protown people should let themselves die if the town thinks they're scummy? That seems wrong, I think people who are falsey accused should fight back not just role over.

Clearly they should defend themself, but once the whim of the town is decided they should accept it. Normally the mod does this for them, but this game we don't have that device.

How do we kill them?

Presumably the potato will eventually lead to their demise.

[armlx]

JohnWWells, Potato Factory Worker, Townie, has been killed by a Baked Yellow Potato at 8:24 am Central District Time.

This happened in between post time stamps from what I see.

[armlx]

Armlx- you really want protown players to participate willingly in their own mislynch?

If it is the whim of the majority, it is expected. If you are a vig, and the whole town says self vig tonight to prove it, you do it.

[armlx]

Armlx- I wouldn't. I'd shoot whoever I thought was scum.

And you would be mislynched the next day for it.

[armlx]

I'd rather be mislynched than shoot myself. At least I'd have an extra chance of shooting scum.

What you are saying here is you think your personal choice of vig shot is going to be more informed and more informative then a town majority......

To get back to the actual game- if a townie who we all think is scum holds on to a potato and explodes, we're down one townie. If they throw it at someone they think is scum, we might see a scum killed or be down a different townie.

But we still have one suspect we have to eliminate somehow, and that causes all sorts of issues.

[armlx]

Well yeah, if the majority's choice is someone I know to be innocent, I'd say my choice is more informed.

However the majority has no reason to trust you and WILL lynch you after. A lynch is far more powerful of a tool and a source of information then a kill directed by 1 player.

I guess...unless they kill scum, in which case they'd be less of a suspect, surely?

Bussing, etc.

[armlx]

qft. I think if we circulate the potato between you, Armlx and TSS, we'll be fine.

I find this ironic as that was my original plan: nom people to keep passing potatoes to each other.....

Of course a Vig will have more faith in their own shooting ability than the town's lynching ability. The Vig is 100% protown, and is wholly trying to kill scum. The town majority is made up by a percentage of scum- upto 49% of the total players. So yeh, i'd be fine with wasting a lynch in order for me to get another shot. And let's face it, if the town doesnt believe the 'shotgunned' kill method to be a vig, you're hardly going to credit them with much scumhunting ability, are ya?

what planet are you from? Self-Vig? 0.o

And you call me self centered.....

[armlx]

Playing the marytyr is arrogance nonetheless. And is distinctly anti-town.

Now I'm just waiting for you to say you would go against the town's wishes in a Kingmaker game....

[armlx]

There's an obvious difference there. In the self-vigging scenario and in this game, you're talking about situations where the player knows something the rest of the players don't i.e. their own alignment. That's not the case in kingmaker.

Its the same general principle.

[armlx]

Why would you kill yourself, knowing that you are pro-town, when you can throw it to someone who is possibly scum? You are putting your opinion ahead of the town's, because if the town is targetting you, and you are town, then the town is wrong.

Again, if it was a matter of you dying or you not dying and you got to choose, the answer is obvious. But if you act in that manner you will die, just as if the town comes to a majority consensus you should be potatoed you will eventually die in this game. By not self killing / holding the potato, you are only putting the town in a worse situation by making it more difficult for them to move past you as a suspect.

[armlx]

Sweet Potato at Kuribo

Die plz scum k thx?

[armlx]

The extra discussion could be helpful

QFT.

i'd love to see you put your money where mouth is. Oh, but look! As soon as you get a whiff of that potato, you're tossing it away again!

I see less votes on me then either TSS or Kuribo.

Ftr, in the event of Kuribo dying, i have first refusal on taking his place. Very Happy

ORLY? I don't think that choice is yours.

[armlx]

I count 2, as opposed to 4-5ish on Kuribo/TSS.

[armlx]

This reminds me a lot of how people direct an active vig, and not everyone cares enough to say anything.

[armlx]

Happy now?

Yes, now I can ask you why you think I am scum.

As an aside, I hope by now, Armlx, I've actively demonstrated to you that no matter how many votes you pile on a person, you cannot force them to die.

Thanks for claiming scum.

[armlx]

Ricetailball has been at least as unhelpful as kuribo (much more so, I'd say) but you're ignoring her totally. Double standards much?

She has, and I have noted this. Kuribo comes in ahead of Riceball solely due to the fact Riceball offered up the flawed, but existant alternative of just playing hot potato over mafia.

[armlx]

:rolleyes: We both know you're not stupid, so stop trying to twist everything I say.

You have shown that you have no desire to conform to the standard lynch procedure that is pro-town. Only scum would desire to do so.

[armlx]

standard lynch procedure doesn't apply here, arlmx. Don't pretend it does, only scum would desire to do so.

This is funny, because the only thing destroying an orderly fashion of elimination does is let the scum get more free potato kills in.

[armlx]

[quote"M4yh3m"]
How is 'playing hot potato' a viable alternative?
[/quote]

I never said it was viable or reasonable.

Also, YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN that this procedure is pro-town, or even will help at all.

I thought that every mafia game ever played remotely well would have proved that the lynch procedure gives good info and results.

My thought was that analyzing WHO THROWS POTATOES AND WHERE will get us MUCH further than pretending that this is a normal game of mafia and insisting that the lead vote getters hold on to potatoes or meekly allow their own lynch.

Didn't someone else say this first, and you not even agree till after TSS called you out?

The only ones who know they should work as a team are the scum, the rest don't know who they should trust, as they do not have any information about anyone else.

Except we will have info from band wagons, attacks, etc like normal mafia....

Not only is it annoying, frustrating, and usually cause one side to come across as "I'm smarter and know more about mafia and that makes you scum," but it also distracts from actual scumhunting.

You only say this so people will stop proving your logic wrong and scummy.

Throw to kuribo

[armlx]

Except you are A) trying to say you did it before hand and B) are taking credit for it.

[armlx]

My thought was that analyzing WHO THROWS POTATOES AND WHERE will get us MUCH further than pretending that this is a normal game of mafia and insisting that the lead vote getters hold on to potatoes or meekly allow their own lynch.

Here. It wasn't your thought, and your response with this does not counter the issue against you that you just threw hate on plans without proposing a logical/ordered alternative.

[armlx]

So, just because I am not alone in my thought means I cannot think that way?

I'm merely stating you latching onto a cause after the fact doesn't help that you didn't have one for the first 18ish pages while attacking the only attempts at making the game ordered.

Also, that quote does not include me saying that it was absolutely my thought and my thought alone.

It implies it.

How come no hate for TSS, who made no less than two unsourced "lol kuribo scum" posts and never produced any reasoning until FAR later when questioned several times?

I believe it was just once.

[armlx]

Blah.

Not sure if 5 scum was too much because the lynches the first couple days were really close to random, or just enough as the "lynch" to NK ratio was lower then normal.

[armlx]

TSS definitely deserves MVP.