Mini 637: Xyl's Smalltown Plus - Game Over

[icemanE]

/confirm. This game sounds awesome!

[icemanE]

So I was thinking about some strategies here, and I was wondering what other people thought about just having the suicide bomber bomb the most suspicious person so we get the equivalent of two lynches.

Well, we don't know if the SB is town do we?

[icemanE]

Question for mod:

As "super bacjup", will I assume the role of suicide bomber if he kills himself?

The suicide bomber and his target die at the same time, so you would get to choose which one you become.

We should think about how to utilize my role as best we can. What role would be most useful for us to have two of? It almost makes sense to me to take our chances and lynch the role we think it would be worth having another of so we don't waste our chance for a duplicate of that role on a NK. What do you think?

[icemanE]

No...
What are you trying to say?

Just saying that we can't trust the SB 100% - we don't know if he's on our side yet or not.

[icemanE]

Also, I sincerely hope you aren't scum Has, as that last statement will be a death sentence for me if you are.

Anyways, I was just thinking about my last post - it doesn't make sense to lynch the most useful role, as once I assume that role, I'm up for a NK anyways. So nevermind.

[icemanE]

You want to get rid of the role we think we should have another of to give it to you? We don't know your alignment.

Good point.

So should we be more focused on standard scumhunting this game, or on utilizing the roles as best we can?

[icemanE]

I hope that wasn't a serious question. Definately scumhunting... Scum will try and get you to waste time during the day arguing about what role should do what instead of looking for them. I think it might even be better to not plan out night actions. This way, the next day, you have some explaining to do on why you did what you did. Plus then the scum wont know how we're acting.

I disagree - utilizing the roles will be a great advantage for us. As long as we decide that it will take a town consensus before someone uses a dayvig power, we essentially get free kills and delay heading into the night phase by lynching. The consensus is key, though - I think we should look at utilizing dayvig powers in the same way we look at voting.

Hate to be the third one to say it, but this is a bad idea cause we don't know if you're protown or antitown.

Why even bother saying this? I've already said it myself. It looks to me like subtle buddying with others who've already said it. This, combined with the suggestion that we ignore the fact that we've been given power roles that could be of great benefit for the town AND keep our night actions secret warrants a

vote: Charter

[icemanE]

Well, I've found the first scum.

I figured we'd get some OMGUS out of Charter judging by his early play, which is another reason I thought he'd be a good target for a vote - and I was right.

So why did you ask a question if you won't listen to the answer you didn't want to hear?

Wait - so you're suggesting that when you ask a question you automatically have to agree with every answer to the question? No.

How is that buddying? Obviously I thought it needed pointed out again.

I think it's buddying simply because it was outrageously uneccesary for you to even say it - obviously you thought you needed to point it out again, yes. But why? Three people including myself, who made the original statement, already did. I think it's buddying because you're promoting yourself as a protown player by restating something that's already been said two too many times.

We have a long day, no sense in cutting short.

EXACTLY - we can make the day EVEN LONGER by properly utilizing our power roles...

Also, how is me saying we should keep the night actions private until the next day scummy?

The whole idea behind mafia is that it's an uninformed majority vs an informed minority. If we can get the majority as informed of what's happening as possible, we'll be on higher ground.

If you plan out your night actions publically, scum can slip through the cracks easier. Plus, when (if we decide to) people reveal their night actions the next day, everyone will have to explain why they did what.

Scum can still like about their night actions... as can everyone else, for that matter. If everyone says "this is what I'm going to do tonight" before they do it, and the actions the next day don't match up with what they said they were going to do... THEN they'll have explaining to do. If no one knows what anyone else is going to be doing that night, we'll have overlapping effects and things will become totally muddled - the inventor might wind up giving his invention to the same person that the MUP and vote motivator target, and if that person is scum, then we're fucked. Planning out night actions in advance is clearly the better course of action.

[icemanE]

@Charter - Yes, I know what OMGUS is. I read your post so I believe I understand why you're voting me.

@ armlx -

I like this plan:

We should SB lynch someone else, force Iceman to take the SB and use him to SB lynch someone else, and then actual lynch. We trade 1 essentiall random death (the first SB) for 4 lynches.

It seems to be the best way to utilize the daykill roles. I would probably take the SB role if that's what the town wanted me to do - but just out of curiosity, how would you go about forcing me to take the SB role - I'd have a choice between the SB role or whatever his target's role was, according to the mod.

[icemanE]

If you didn't take the SB, we would lynch you on the spot. Same as forcing someone to claim.

Assuming the entire town decides to follow you, that is. That is an awfully bold claim to make, especially considering that no one knows your alignment.

[icemanE]

Also, the choices you would be presenting me with are:

A. Decline to assume the SB role and be lynched.

B. Assume the SB role and kill designated target, thereby killing yourself.

and presumably

C. Assume the SB role - but what happens if I don't decide to follow the target you want me to kill? I think it could get messy if the town decides to force someone to kill themselves - as it stands, once the SB power is in my hands, I can kill whomever I please, so you'll have to be sure you trust me 100% if that's the course of action you want to follow.

[icemanE]

Ah, this is how the last game I played with armlx went - I asked a question about the setup, speculate on how we could use it to our advantage, and for the rest of the game, armlx sided with my opponents and created an "us vs them" sentiment - and at the end of the game, it turned out I was town and arm was scum. That's not a meta to prove I'm town or that arm is scum - but I guess speculating on the game setup or how to best utilize power roles - or placing yourself in someone else's shoes, as I did in point C above, is frowned upon on this site. I guess I'll just keep my speculations to myself from here on out, as it seems only to derail the town.

Ok, since you say you know what OMGUS is and you say you saw my reasons for voting you (which I posted right after my vote), then this is just another lie.

????

There's no need for buzzwords such as outrageously, they only inflate poor arguments. First of all, buddying isn't "promoting yourself as a protown player", it's being friendly to someone/s. The rest of your argument is fabricated. I'm not "promoting" myself either, I felt like you made a slip up and were trying to brush it under the rug, so I pointed it out again. You aren't the judge of what's been said too many times either.

So in the same post where you tell me I'm not 'the judge of what's been said too many times' (which is a comically junior-high comeback, i.e. YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME! lol) you decide that you're a language policeman and that I'm not allowed to use certain words. Regardless even of that, I think three times of restating the same thing is too many. Shoot me.

Also, you saying planning out night actions is "clearly the better course of action" doesn't make it true. You've given one (unlikely) reason why the other plan isn't the best course of action, but the only reason you've given for your plan, is that it prevents "muddling". If townies lie about their night actions, then there's little chance of success...

This starts off stupid and gets worse as it moves forward. If I think something is the best course of action, I'm going to say it is - so what the hell is your point? How is it unlikely? Why would townies lie about their night actions?

After I answered your question, you went straight into telling me how I was wrong, so clearly you didn't even need to ask the question since your mind was already made up. This is a classic example of trying to look helpful, but not being helpful.

No. I asked a question that I wanted answers to, and you answered it. You're right about that. But your answer was more than "A" or "B" - it was "A, and here's why". I disagreed with the "here's why" part of your answer, and it got me thinking further about my question, and thereby made up my mind.

Also, as armlx has pointed out, icemanE is NOT the lynch.

Neither is charter, btw.

OK, who's "the lynch"? Cerebrus? Because you caught a slight whiff of distancing? Seriously?

[icemanE]

Oh wow, Poisoner is a day vig too? Gogo 5 lynches + 1 random death (counting Iceman as a "lynch" despite him presumably SBing).

This whole plan hinges on none of the day vig players being scum.

[icemanE]

iceman Slipped up with his "Kill someone and give me their power!" post, and has spent the rest of this time trying to sweep that under the carpet.

I'm going through possible strategies - it seems like, with all these power roles at our disposal, there ought to be some better way of dealing with the scum than simply lynching them. Right now the poisoner is looking like the most useful of the lot - it won't cost us a potential townie life to get an extra kill in today. I think we should save the SB for tomorrow and utilize our poisoner today on a target we agree upon. I also don't think we should clone the suicide bomb - if anything, as I said before, we should make sure that the first person we kill has a role we DO want two of. Almost all the roles are useful, but I think it's dangerous to have two suicide bombs, myself.

[icemanE]

Poison IcemanE, he just looks power hungry to me

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "power hungry". I'm not trying to take over the world - I've even stated that I DON'T want the most 'powerful' role in the game, that being the Suicide Bomber. I'd like to say that my role is potentially one of the most powerful in the game already, since we can essentially clone whichever role we want, or, if we mislynch, at the very least we won't be losing that person's role power.

Mod: Who dies first, the poisoned person or the lynched person?

This is a very good question, I need to see that answer before we decide who to poison or lynch, since I we'll be cloning the role of whichever dies first.

[icemanE]

I'd like to point out that town would actually want to be the Suicide Bomber more than scum. If an SB is scum, then they're pretty much screwed to die at some point... If they don't use their kill in lylo, then they'll be lynched without a thought.

Yeah, I can see exactly what you mean with this - but personally, I don't think it's worth a guaranteed loss of a townie for the chance of killing scum. Making the same mistake twice, yikes, it's too risky to have two SB's as far as I'm concerned.

[icemanE]

@ Crazy -

As the suicide bomber, would you be willing to use your power on a target the town voted to majority on?

[icemanE]

EBWOP: I mean RIGHT NOW, if the town voted to majority that you should use your SB power on someone, would you do it?

[icemanE]

Contradictions aside, how do you know that Crazy is town?

When did I say that?

[icemanE]

When I said "guaranteed loss of a townie" I wasn't talking about Crazy, I was talking about ME if I wound up with the SB role.

[icemanE]

You said you didn't want the most powerful role because you would be immediately NKed.

No - I said it was pointless for us to lynch the most powerful role so that I could inherit it, because I'd just be eligible for a NK anyways - I was disagreeing with an earlier idea I had. You misread.

[icemanE]

The 'same mistake twice' implies that you know Crazy is town too.

You're reading too far into what I write. And nhat is misreading what I write.

I wish you would have let Crazy answer the question, Alabaska, and I truly hate when people answer questions for others, as it more or less destroys the entire purpose behind the exercise.

My intent behind asking Crazy if he'd be willing to suicide right now if we all voted and asked him to do so was because of what we've been discussing all day long - that is, it's more worth it for a town SB to sacrifice himself than it is for scum to, since there are fewer scum than town, etc. I wanted to see how he'd respond to the question, because every time he adresses using his power, he seems eager to delay using it:

I think I'd rather use my bomb later, when more information is around, rather than today, unless if we can find two mega-scummy people today.

If we don't want Iceman to have my ability, then I could just wait until tomorrow to suicide bomb someone.

Good enough. I endorse a poisoning today, and I'll save my suicide bomb for tomorrow.

Note: Those those last two quotes are the entirety of the posts they come from - so on two seperate occasions, he's popped in SOLELY to say "I'll save my bomb for later". I really wish Alabaska had not answered my question for Crazy in Crazy's place, as it would have increased my suspicion of Crazy, but since Alabaska stepped in for him,

[Fos: Alabaska[/b]

and

vote: Crazy

[icemanE]

Ok, the town seems to have convinced itself that I'm scum. I'm not entirely sure how or why, but this tends to happen when I'm town - look at all of my completed games - I wind up on L-1 or get lynched consistently. It's always due to scum exploiting some slight hole in my logic, or a mistep I make, and blowing it way out of proportion. I often think "It can't work like this every time - scum lurk, too, so there's no way this person right out on the front lines is scum taking advantage of my mistake - but so far, that's the way it's worked. I'd advise you, if you do wind up SB'ing or poisoning me, to look at those who led the charge on me in future days.

I also think this is a good time to:

A. Remind you that I have potentially the most useful role in the game, if we use it right,

and

B. Tell you my secret role. I'm bulletproof - this means I can survive one NK attempt. @ ZombieSlayer - This is the REAL reason that I don't want to be SB.

Also @ Zombie - in response to this:

You act like a target we agree upon for the poisoner is necessarily going to be scum.

You also seem to be acting like any lynch will also necessarily hit scum.

Either I am too tired to realize what you are actually saying, or someone missed out on Mafia 101.

This is dumb. The post you respond to with the above quote is a theory on how to best utilize roles. I would assume you were too tired to understand what I was saying, as it was fairly simple and straightforward.

Anyways, I'm not withdrawing my vote on you, Crazy, just because you're the SB. You're right - if you're scum, you'll eventually suicide anyway - perhaps you'll do so when you're put on L-1.

[icemanE]

My answer is just the lynch and poisoner. My reason for not wanting to SB today is that I flat out don't trust iceman to do anything with his SB other than kill the most useful townie role (watcher/tracker in my opinion). You guys keep saying that we should SB then let him SB someone else. How do you know he's going to go through with it?!?!?!?

I've already told you SEVERAL times that if given the oppurtunity to assume the SB role, I would decline it.

Oh, yeah, the latest reason I don't like icemanE is him trying to defend himself with role info.

How and why is this a bad thing? You either have some personal problem with me or you're scum again this game. I also don't understand how armlx is allowed to cruise by making two line posts without growing any moss, especially when he advocates high body counts based on pretty loose info. I mean look at this for Christ's sake:

As for how many kills today, I vote for as many as possible. More pro-town kills is like pushing the game towards nightless.

WTF? The more kills that occur today, the more townies will die, period. Chances are obviously immensely better based on odds alone that more townies will die than scum - your suggestion is basically to carpetbomb the shit out of this game until we happen to kill scum, and in the process kill a bunch of townies.

@Armlx - do you really think Crazy is scum or do you just want the SB to use his ability?

[icemanE]

icemanE: This is why I think we should lynch armlx today and go through with his plan. Just in case he is scum trying to carpet bomb the shit out of this game as scum.

I agree with your logic in your post - I also think it's obvious that you're town this game considering the difference between your play here and in the newbie game we played in together where you were scum.

I disagree with your kill choices other than armlx, though. I think we should utilize poisoner today and do a regular lynch, and consider whether or not we even want the SB to use his power at all.

[icemanE]

By that logic, we should just non-stop no lynch until LyLo as it thins the crowd even more. By arguing that it is better to not utilize as many pro-town kills as is possible, you should agree with the statement that doctors shouldn't protect randomly as it hurts the town's info flow.

Wow. No. This is ridiculous, and very typical of what I saw in the Eclipse game - trying to tie my ideas in with other trash you generate to make what I'm saying seem stupid by association.

OBVIOUSLY PRO-TOWN KILLS ARE BENEFICIAL TO THE TOWN. What I'm saying is that CHANCES ARE VERY GOOD THAT MOST OF THE KILLS WE MAKE TODAY ARE NOT GOING TO BE PROTOWN IF WE JUST GUN DOWN AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE ON DAY ONE. Say we follow the high body count plan - and we screw it up, which is just as likely as killing even ONE of the scum - in fact, it's more likely we'll screw it up that not based on odds - that leaves us quite near lylo on day 2. What then? I already know you'll be making one mistake for sure if you go ahead with Alabaska and armlx's plan, so I can't possibly envision this being a good idea. I think utilizing the poisoner as well as the lynch is a BONUS KILL, but using the SB to kill two MORE people is OVERKILL.

[icemanE]

You fail to realize that the scum's main weapon to win is night kills while ours is the lynch. How is maximizing ours while minimizing theirs a bad thing?

Also - the scum's main weapon is misleading the town into making poor decisions.

And we will be minimizing our chances for success and killing townies needlessly if we just bomb the hell out of the whole thing.

[icemanE]

This is equivalent to saying the town's best weapon is scumhunting.

...and it is... what are you saying with this? And why are you answering for arm. Please, I sincerely hate it.

but you don't know that we're killing townies, ice, that's the thing. We're killing the most suspicious people. I'd rather have them dead early than be confusing us later when it's more stressful.

I see exactly what you're saying and understand where you're coming from. I agree that the most suspicious people should be killed - that's the whole idea behind the game and the only truly effective way to play it. But I don't think that killing as many of the suspicious people as possible while sacrificing potentially useful roles/players is necessary - i think there's a tipping point, which in this case, is using the poisoner and the lynch, and that the SB on day one goes beyond that point.

[icemanE]

Ice man should to be bombed. (In case nobody is paying attention he just contradicted himself)

Mind explaining how?

[icemanE]

icemanE, explain this to me: Why is SBing someone worse then going to night? Worst case scenario is SB is 1 for 1ing someone not scummy for someone scummy, same as lynch + night, only usually when that happens the not scummy person is 100% assured not scum as the mafia aren't going to kill their own members, while the SB is in no way confirmed. Now, the SB is even scummy. Talk about a bonus.

The way I see it is this:

If the SB is not scum, and we choose a target for him to kill, he will presumably follow what we say and kill that target - which means we kill a possible scum and lose a townie.

If the SB IS scum, and we choose a target for him to kill, he will presumably ignore his advice and kill a townie of his choosing - which means we kill a scum but lose a townie.

Now, we can't be sure that the SB is scum until he blows himself up - so really, it's either a potential townie killing a potential scum, or a potential scum killing a definite townie. It just doesn't seem worth it to me.

[icemanE]

EBWOP: Presumably ignore *OUR* advice

[icemanE]

I don't see whats wrong with that.

What I see is wrong with it is that it doubles our chances to be wrong without doubling our chances to be right. The SB isn't going to kill another scum. So the most we can kill with the SB is one scum - why would we want to risk losing two townies for the chance of killing at maximum one scum?

[icemanE]

Show me.

113:

I also don't think we should clone the suicide bomb

119:

I've even stated that I DON'T want the most 'powerful' role in the game, that being the Suicide Bomber.

122:

yikes, it's too risky to have two SB's as far as I'm concerned.

[icemanE]

well, could you point them out instead of just making comments that everyone else thinks are wrong?

Yes, I'd like to hear how you think the poisoner has been scummiest so far this game - he's been one of the more protown players as far as I can tell.

The only problem is ZS that if we did just a lynch today the mafia members wil more then likely kill off one of the dayvigs so they wouldnt be able to use their powers against them the next day, either that or kill off a protective role depending on what they think is the greatest threat. I agree more to using just one of the day powers like mine, and a lynch, in hopes of getting the right info we need before the mafia get a chance to take away one of the powers.

This is a good post - I'm quite sure wolf is on the town's side, which is a good thing for us. The chances of the suicide bomber getting NK'd are fairly slim, as the SB is a free kill for the scum during the day, if the SB is town. Which means that wolf will most likely be a target tonight and should be protected if possible.

pwnz, what are you talking about? Everyone's guesses as to people's alignments are their own. You might find something that the rest of us hadn't that finds someone as much more scummy than we thought them before.

Yes, it's called scumhunting.

[icemanE]

If I see anything suspicious then I will be sure to let you both know right away.

You've seen nothing thus far then?

[icemanE]

Missed post 293, pwns. In fact I missed all of page 12 - sorry, I turned 21 last night, I'm a little out of my element.

It is not a bad thing to suggest that the poisoner uses his power on someone, especially since it has the added perk of letting us see a players true colors one final day before he dies.

Presuming the poisoner tells us all who he's poisoned, that is. Which he will if he's town.

The poisoner is a very dangerous role in the hands of scum. The poisoner has beenn acting the scummiest. Therefore he should be killed. Thast seems logical to me.

If the poisoner goes against our wishes, we'll know about it at the end of the day. It's as simple as that - if he doesn't do what we want, he's the next day's lynch.

However, for now, we need to get Empking out of the way. He is offering way too much confusion to this game. He is either scum, or very, very, very bad townie.

While I agree with a lot of what ZS says, this threw me for a loop. He made a post not too long ago where he said he didn't want to lynch someone unless he was 90% sure they were scum, which I agree with (or at the very least, the scummiest player should be lynched), but then he makes this post where he says Emp should be killed whether he's town or scum, a huge turnaround which I do not agree with. Granted, Emp has been acting scummy, but ZS's 180 is scummy as well.

[icemanE]

OK, that was random as hell. I'm curious to see their alignment. Somehow I think Crazy was town now.

[icemanE]

I took the suicide bomb - now that we're down a scum I don't see a problem with a lot of daykills anymore. Who does the town think I should bomb?

[icemanE]

Suicide Bomb: Alabaska J

I was right about crazy. Hopefully I'm right here too. Good luck town.